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But I will say this, while I agree that a stable offensive system helps a QB learn, relax, and develop... how much of that stability is BECAUSE Manning is as good as he is? I mean if you have a great QB, it only stands to reason you will have more job security as an OC, right
Yes and if your offense is great it secures these things..but if your offense and QB are crap..instability results.
The Browns don't have either..even if the supporting cast was competent the QB's aren't..don't know why a lot people in here don't get , we haven't had the better QB's in the league let alone conference..they all refer back to DA's good year and cite his 29tds...sure nice...but fail to see his QB ratings throughout..but if you NEVER watched the games to see what was happening
GAME in and GAME out what would you come away with?
To see him steadily decline over 7 games is interesting..he didn't get better...he got worse as teams adjusted to his strength..
It makes me wonder if all they did was look at stats and not the games..
The book on him is out..drop the LB's in medium zones...rotate safeties over ..wait for him to throw..
This is what happened with Edwards here..and after they started defensing him and Winslow it started suffocating DA..because he couldn't consistantly come underneath and make teams pay for that.
But thats old news ..it's still a factor..but I figured it out two years ago.most in here still haven't 2 years later.
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Legend
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Then there is Peyton Manning, who has played in one system in all his entire 12 yr NFL career.
Now, I'm not saying either of the Browns QBs are going to be a Brett Favre or Peyton Manning, but the point about "change" slowing a players growth certainly must be considered when evaluating the Browns QBs, IMO.
mac I agree for the most part. And it's not just the playbook. Manning has had very little turnover at the WR, TE and OL positions the entire time he's been with the Colts.
(Just as a side note, they stated a fact the other night, that Peyton has had 3 offensive schemes his whole life, high school, Tennessee, and the Colts... the only time he has EVER changed systems was to move up a level... just thought that was neat)...
But I will say this, while I agree that a stable offensive system helps a QB learn, relax, and develop... how much of that stability is BECAUSE Manning is as good as he is? I mean if you have a great QB, it only stands to reason you will have more job security as an OC, right?
DC...When Manning was drafted by the Colts in 1998, Tom Moore began his career with the Colts as their OC in 1998, too.
In 1998, Moore already had been an OC/RB coach at the major college level for 12 season and had 21 yrs of NFL experience as OC/WR/RB coach...13 yrs with the Steelers...4 yrs with the Vikings (assist HC)...3 yrs with Detroit as OC...and a yr with the Saints as RB coach.
Manning had the good fortune to hook up with Tom Moore, one of the very best OCs in the NFL from day one. No doubt, Moore did a great job of teaching Manning how to run his offense and they have been together, kicking defensive butt for 12 yrs with the Colts.
When you pair one of the best OCs with the very best QB in the NFL, you end up with a career like Mannings and the record of success for the Colts for the over a decade.
The Browns offensive coordinator, Brian Daboll is a first time OC who has 5 yrs experience with the Patriots as a WR coach and 2 yrs with the Jets as a QB coach.
When we pair Daboll up with Anderson and Quinn, it's not too hard to figure out that the Browns offensive game is very young, inexperienced and green. Our OC and QBs are teaching/learning this offense one game at a time.
The lack of experience of our OC and QBs can be overcome if they stay together and teach/learn this offense for the next few years.
Again, we are not saying that DA or Quinn are going to be the next Favre or Manning...but...if Mangini can keep Daboll and our QBs together, in the same system for the next few yrs, the payoff could be significant.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Again, we are not saying that DA or Quinn are going to be the next Favre or Manning...but...if Mangini can keep Daboll and our QBs together, in the same system for the next few yrs, the payoff could be significant.
nice post and good point.
that said, the problem is i don't think cleveland fans are willing to give DA that type of time. i think some cleveland fans may be willing to give quinn that type of time, but that population dropped dramatically. quinn also needs to show that he deserves that type of time and i'm guessing he hasn't done that in mangini's eyes (and i'm not talking about playing in the first 2.5 games this season).
mangini'll probably bring in his guy and then give him that long period of time. it's no coincidence that, if you draft a qb as the new head coach, your tenure will coincide with the tenure of the qb.
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The lack of experience of our OC and QBs can be overcome if they stay together and teach/learn this offense for the next few years.
Then account for lack of talent..because no length of time will correct that..and thats what I see..it's simple..it's why there is huge turnover ..lack of talent..
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Again, we are not saying that DA or Quinn are going to be the next Favre or Manning...but...if Mangini can keep Daboll and our QBs together, in the same system for the next few yrs, the payoff could be significant.
Sorry, QBs that have already been in the NFL for 3 years, don't get 3 more years to adjust to a system change. QBs in the NFL don't get 5 or 6 years to try to achieve "average" unless they are on the back-up circuit.
As far as Daboll, I'm more willing to give him the time if we see talent go up and results go up... then I'll keep giving him time to continue to improve.
As far as either of our QBs, if one of them ends up looking decent this season I'll give them next season.. if for no other reason than I don't want to use that draft pick this year on a QB and nobody on the FA list really gives me hope... but next season, if the one that stays doesn't look SIGNIFICANTLY better.. I mean consistently better than average.. then they would be done.
yebat' Putin
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Again, we are not saying that DA or Quinn are going to be the next Favre or Manning...but...if Mangini can keep Daboll and our QBs together, in the same system for the next few yrs, the payoff could be significant.
Sorry, QBs that have already been in the NFL for 3 years, don't get 3 more years to adjust to a system change. QBs in the NFL don't get 5 or 6 years to try to achieve "average" unless they are on the back-up circuit.
As far as Daboll, I'm more willing to give him the time if we see talent go up and results go up... then I'll keep giving him time to continue to improve.
As far as either of our QBs, if one of them ends up looking decent this season I'll give them next season.. if for no other reason than I don't want to use that draft pick this year on a QB and nobody on the FA list really gives me hope... but next season, if the one that stays doesn't look SIGNIFICANTLY better.. I mean consistently better than average.. then they would be done.
DC...I believe you miss the basic point completely.
I attempted to show that some of the most successful QBs in the NFL have had minimal changes (in OC/system/playbook) especially early in their careers. Now if you want to claim it doesn't make any difference in a QBs development or performance to have the changes (in OC/system/playbook)our QBs have experienced in the last 5 yrs, be my guest.
I will give you this...the longer a QB is in the NFL, the quicker they should pick up a new system. But, each QB is different when it comes to their ability to learn and adjust to a new system. Nothing is written in stone as to how long it takes a QB to completely learn a new offense.
Here in Cleveland, we have asked our present starter to learn 4 playbooks from 4 different OCs in 5 yrs. Do you doubt that Quinn, Anderson or Ratliff will be better in their second and third years in Daboll's system than they are this season?
Browns fans seem to like CHANGE...not realizing the reason this franchise is so poor is due to the amount of CHANGE that has taken place in Cleveland.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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"And really... unless DA implodes, or BQ takes off, I'd rather go with DA next season and not draft a QB at all next April."
"AND NOT DRAFT A QB AT ALL NEXT APRIL"
Lamp...I really don't know what to say about BQ he didn't play HORRIFIC...but he didn't play well and he didn't play with confidence. All the intangible plusses I thought he possessed over DA he displayed as NEGATIVES...But can he progress??? I don't know not from the little that I have seen from him.
DA - I have seen a lot.
Right now neither is impressive.
Now the reality of this all - 09 like the first year of any new regime is to install the program and evaluate HANDS on with the Talent that you got here and move forward.
No one player Greater to the overall success for this REGIME or any than the QB.
So you tell me this. M/K are they going to put the ENTIRE future of their dreams into the hands of One of these QBs...who I might add were not picked by them, only inherited.
You would go and say...Here DA - I rest MY FUTURE AND DREAMS into your hands.
I would be "SHOCKED" if we didn't get "THEIR" QB via draft (I doubt FA unless a stud becomes available- and when does that happen??? Brees? remember he just had shoulder surgery and questions on his career being over were there)
Do I expect a draft day trade of one of our QBs???
Maybe DA plays well enough to get some interest and then we play BQ for a year while we initiate the new QB and get him ready?
Actually that is exactly what happened with Brees and he studded out that season and simply extended the tutoring of Rivers another season. But they still got a 2nd rounder even after the surgery. They thought they had DEAD WOOD with Brees.
But I just do not see them (M/K) put everything that they have worked for their entire NFL LIVES in the hands of DA  Would YOU???
JMH?
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Browns fans seem to like CHANGE.
Yes, we'd like to change to a winning team.
I'm always amazed/amused when someone says or intimates that we, as a fanbase, aren't patient enough. Hello!! It's now 45 years since our last championship. If anything we're too patient and/or compliant.
You don't need to change the staff/roster every couple of years. But who thinks Chris Palmer is HC material? No one else in the NFL, that's who.
Who thinks Butch Davis is an NFL HC? Not many. Good college guy, though.
Anyone hiring Romeo as an HC anytime soon? I think not.
It's not the changes that are screwing us. It's who we're changing to that is burying the knife in our backs. So far Mangini isn't instilling all that much faith in this choice, either. But unless he just screws the pooch he'll get at least 2 more years, IMO.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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The lack of experience of our OC and QBs can be overcome if they stay together and teach/learn this offense for the next few years.
Thats a given...experience comes with time..
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...if Mangini can keep Daboll and our QBs together, in the same system for the next few yrs, the payoff could be significant.
This assumes that the "system" is good...if the system sucks no amount of time will make the product better. So far, Dabolls system is High School...he has ALOT of growing to do....
IF this regime fails to win 4 games this year after they have brought in alot of their guys I think you have to SERIOUSLY consider that fact that you have three, THREE super bowl winning coaches looking for work in 2010....you just have to consider it...
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But I just do not see them (M/K) put everything that they have worked for their entire NFL LIVES in the hands of DA Would YOU???
Nope, believe me I know DA's limitations/strengths. He's always gonnabe a wacky QB, as in feast or famine. And he's not a a Top 10 QB in this league, not consistently. on his good days (I like him on his good days haha), yup he is Top 10. On his bad days, he's terrible.
I just would rather draft defense or RT next April, that'd be my way to go.
But if the coach/GM go QB in the 1st round... then that's their decision to make.. If they believe enough in the QB they choose.... then we live with it.
For that matter, nobody knows if BQ is done here. Nobody.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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1st String
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Just to update my thread.
DA is now officially the lowest ranked passer in the league.
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Legend
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Now if you want to claim it doesn't make any difference in a QBs development or performance to have the changes (in OC/system/playbook)our QBs have experienced in the last 5 yrs, be my guest.
Nope, won't make that argument... I just don't see the mistakes we are making as "system" mistakes. throwing it 3 feet to far in front of or 3 feet too far behind a guy on a crossing route isn't the system, it's inaccuracy. Familiarity with a system works out the last 10% of the issues, not the first 60%...
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Browns fans seem to like CHANGE...not realizing the reason this franchise is so poor is due to the amount of CHANGE that has taken place in Cleveland.
I have been saying this for years mac.. .just like no country every taxed its way to prosperity, no football team ever fired and hired its way to continuity... I'm all for continuity, I am on record as saying that either of the QBs we have on our roster now should start and play next year, one of them should be gone... we should use this draft and FA to fill as many holes as we can and give whichever one stays the reigns for next year.. don't you think it's safe to say that by the end of next year they should be far enough along the learning curve to at least know where their ceiling is? Trust me, I don't want to change coaches (and I don't want to draft a new QB).. I don't even want to consider it until the end of next year...
yebat' Putin
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