DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum State of Cleveland Browns (Peter King Article)

I've got a feeling that Cleveland 6, Buffalo 3 didn't put much salve on the wounds of Browns fans. I know many of them, and one e-mailed me Sunday night after the Browns' first win of the year -- which featured 2-of-17 passing by the starting quarterback. It says much about this edition of the Browns that their star of the game was punter Dave Zastudil. "When the game ended, I felt nothing,'' said my buddy, who grew up in Cleveland and now works on the East Coast. "Zero. Completely numb. It's become so bad, even wins have become all but meaningless.''

The ire of the fans is understandable. This is Year 11 of the Browns' reincarnation, and it's hard to say the team is very far ahead of where it was 10 years ago, when the expansion Browns finished 2-14.

On offense, the Browns have a left tackle of the future, Joe Thomas, but no other franchise players; they'll probably have to draft yet another first-round passer, their third since '99, next April. They need a running back of the future. On defense, they don't have a pass-rusher or anyone who scares a game-planning offensive coordinator except perhaps nose tackle Shaun Rogers. The whispers of agents with players on the team get louder and louder that the coach, Eric Mangini, seems to have as many players against him in the locker room as any other coach in the league.

And if a report by ESPN's Adam Schefter is true -- that rookie running back James Davis was hurt in practice when ordered to run padless against fully padded defensive players -- Mangini will be in trouble with the league and in trouble when he tries to lure free agents to Cleveland next offseason.

The Davis allegations are troubling, and the team has already talked to a league official investigating the incident. The Browns say the incident never happened that way. Davis, they claim, was injured when going against linebacker Blake Costanzo in a post-practice pass-rushing drill, when both players were not wearing pads. The play left Davis on injured reserve with a shoulder injury. The NFL Players Association is also looking into the story, and I'll follow up as developments occur, as best I can.

With all that as a backdrop, let's take a look at what Mangini, who is five games into a four-year contract, and GM George Kokinis have done since taking over. They've made three major trades -- dealing troublesome tight end Kellen Winslow to Tampa for second- and sixth-round picks, trading down with the Jets on draft day to net a passel of players and picks, and sending Braylon Edwards to the Jets last week for two players and two draft picks. They also made a minor one, sending defensive tackle Louis Leonard to Carolina. In all, Cleveland got these 13 pieces of the puzzle (players and draft picks):

Players from the Jets Draft picks

Starting DE Kenyon Coleman 1st-round C Alex Mack
Starting S Abram Elam 2nd-round DL/LB David Veikune
No. 3 QB Brett Ratliff 2nd-round WR Muhammad Massaquoi
Backup WR Chansi Stuckey 6th-round RB James Davis
Backup LB/Special-teamer Jason Trusnik 6th-round CB Cory Francies
3rd-round pick in 2010 (from Jets; could rise to a 2)
5th-round pick in 2010 (from Jets)
5th-round pick in 2010 (from Bucs)
6th-round pick in 2010 (from Panthers)

Mack is starting and playing passably well. Massaquoi has started three games and is still learning the pro game. Veikune is an inside linebacker project, and Mangini is cautiously optimistic he can learn to be a sideline-to-sideline playmaker. The Jets guys are players Mangini knew, guys who can fill roles; Elam could be a long-term safety and Coleman is a serviceable 3-4 defensive end. The Browns have 11 picks in the 2010 draft, and it's a vital draft for the future of the franchise. (How many times have Browns fans heard that, and gotten their hopes up about Tim Couch or Courtney Brown or Gerard Warren or William Green or Jeff Faine or Edwards or Winslow? Those were the top picks between 1999 and 2005, and none play in Cleveland anymore.)

So, I asked Mangini and Kokinis in separate interviews, do the Browns have a better 53-man roster than they did at the end of the 2008 season?

Kokinis: "I think so. But it's different. To go forward, the environment here had to change. We aren't in this to put band-aids on the problem. We're here to solve the problem. When you establish a system, it's all about building a disciplined program conducive to winning, and you're going to have people at first who fight the system. But we'll find the true Browns who buy into what we're doing. The one thing people need to understand is this situation wasn't like Atlanta, where you can draft Matt Ryan and sign Michael Turner in free agency and win your division. This team was a long way away. Some free-agency periods and some drafts need to happen for the right amount of change to take place.''

Mangini: "Yeah, I think the roster's better. I think we have a much better chance of getting where we want to be with this roster moving forward. But it's not going to be easy. What gets lost a little bit with our draft-day trade is how much money we saved over the long term by trading down -- maybe $40 million. And those resources will be spent to build a better overall football team. That's cash we'll spend on more players.

"For now, we're making improvements. Some of the improvements aren't sexy -- more energy at practice and in games, more intensity, playing complimentary football. But regardless of external perception, we have guys who care. And next year, we'll have 11 draft picks instead of the four we had this year. That's when you can do some building.''

My take: The roster is absolutely not better because no player of the skill level of Edwards or Winslow has been added. But I would have done all three deals that ManKinis did, because Winslow and Edwards were never going to buy into any long-term rebuilding program, which this has to be. There comes a time when team and player have to divorce, and if player has great success after the trade (Roger Clemens when he left Boston), it doesn't mean he'd have had the same success in his original place.

Winslow was damaged goods on and off the field, which Tampa Bay is discovering now, and getting a two and five for him last winter was good. Edwards had two good NFL years, but the book on him was he liked the life of being a football player more than actually being a football player. Shortly before the Browns dealt him to New York, three teams told Cleveland they were not interested in making an offer for him.

Could Edwards have generated interest before the draft last year? Maybe, but not much more than third- and fifth-round picks and two bottom-of-the-roster contributors. (Let's say the Giants would have given the Browns a second-round pick last April, which they never offered. But if they did, what's a better deal -- the 60th pick in 2009, or the 80th and 150th in 2010, plus a fourth receiver and a special-teams-captain type? I'd take the latter.)

We can argue all day about taking Mack as the key pick in the Sanchez deal. I'd have gone for a play-making linebacker like James Laurinaitis or Rey Maualuga, or a top tackle like Michael Oher to pair with Thomas for the long-term, then get a center down the line this year or next. But time will tell on Mack, who needs to be a franchise keystone for this trade to be smart.

"The draft is the equalizer in the NFL,'' said Kokinis. "We've got to make those [2010] picks work.''

Because of the startup nature of the program, Kokinis said he's been spending time in and around the team this fall, instead of concentrating his efforts on on-campus scouting. He said he'd do that after the college season. If I were him, I'd accelerate the process. I'd be spending three days at Texas turning over every stone on Colt McCoy, and three in Norman looking at Sam Bradford -- as well as extensive time looking at the other quarterbacks in the 2010 draft, like Tim Tebow and Jevan Snead. That's more important than whatever's happening in his building right now.

This is a startup program, like Kansas City and St. Louis and Tampa Bay. Anyone who thought the first season would be pretty had misplaced hopes. Though if I were owner Randy Lerner, I'd have moved heaven and earth and acceded to anything Scott Pioli wanted to make him franchise czar. The fact is Lerner hired a coach who'd had a good startup record with the Jets. But for Mangini to succeed, he has to make sure he avoids the same mistakes a coach he knows well, Bill Belichick, made in Cleveland in the first half of the Nineties. Belichick's plan was smart, but his communication and execution were not. Those are the things Mangini's got to work on in Cleveland.

By the way, Lerner's not going to cave after a year and sweep clean. He's tired of the coaching and front-office chaos, and I'm not saying he's going to give Mankinis three seasons like this one, but to think he'll fire the building again this winter is just not happening. This is what I'd say to Browns' fans: It took you years to get into this mess, and it's going to take you at least two years to get out of it.

link

I will say that I'm not sure who Cory Francies is...

Good article, objective, insightful IMO and fair.

Proof'll be in the pudding,...I'm not entirely unhappy with their first draft,...yet.

And what happens this year--either a variety of unresolved problems, or a 12-4 season with none--will determine what they need to do in next year's draft.

I guess I'm still judging Mangini on his poor judgement of our QB situation,....I mean, if he thought for a minute that neither Quinn nor DA was "it," then why didn't they draft a QB ? I can only assume he was happy with what we had,...obviously unhappy with what we had at WR,...etc.

And now Peter King tells us to be patient,....

I don't think it has anything to do with this years draft. Mack is starting and improving weekly. He will be good for many years. Davis showed promise and Massaqoui did also. We also got a starting safety and a couple decent Dlinemen. The others are projects with upside. Maiava is playing well on STs . I don't see this draft as a failure, but I do see a method and a plan.

I don't think Kokinis could have stated things any clearer. They are building for the long term, and they are not hiding that fact. 11 picks in next years draft can add a lot of young talent to a rebuilding team.

I was one who was looking for a quick turn around, but I now seen where they are headed with their plan and I like it. Time will tell.

I thought the same thing. A very fair and unbiased article.

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I mean, if he thought for a minute that neither Quinn nor DA was "it," then why didn't they draft a QB ?

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He had a guy who went to the probowl, and a first rounder with a ton of hype. I would think that any coach would have wanted to see what they could do before just throwing both away. He brought in a new system, it had to be difficult to guage their proformance when the whole team was learning a new system. Besides, they both at times in the past showed promise. I can see why he may have thought one of them had "it".

He was dealt a hand and he played it to see if it was good enough to win with. It's easy for us looking at it with 20/20 hindsight, but we don't have salary caps and contracts to deal with. The only thing I say he did wrong was letting the competition drag out too long, other than that, I don't believe any other coach would have drafted a QB high with both these guys on the roster, when there were so many other holes that needed filling. I don't believe they thouhgt they were going to come in and win right away with the roster handed to them, and I think Kokinis made that eveident with his comments.

OK there, Squared Away,...hahaha,....the only thing I really don't/didn't like so far was, for as much college football as I believe I watch, I had never heard of Maiava or Veikune,....that worried me. The QB situation still worries me, in that we might have to pick another next year,....that means wasting the #1 pick when we need Berry/Mays, Spikes and a RT,....

I'd move Francies to safety tomorrow,....

And if they execute their plan (?) I'm all for it !

Ahh yes, the "alternate," who still got the honor and beat out a number of starting QB's within the AFC.

And then we bash him cuz of his play, in the pro bowl----arguably the most meaningless game all year long.



"Browns fans" kill me.

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I guess I'm still judging Mangini on his poor judgement of our QB situation,....

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Remember Cohwer played a guy named Kordell Steward for a long time because he felt he was right for the Steelers. After his few years of failures and projects...he looked like a total different coach than those earlier years.

Dont judge this FO on ONE missjudgement on talent. Most of his moves have yet to be realized, We are 5 games into a season with NO qb to move forward with on our roster and spots to be filled with those buncha buncha picks next year. Even then it'll take another year or two to see if we are hitting on them.

We have got to stay the course whether we like it or not.

Yes we need a qb and yes he prolly missed on it but sometimes you need to find out for your self if a kid can play and we had a 1st rounder in Quinn who had to be given the chance to prove himself. He so far has failed and i feel like we address it in the off season.

IMO...it had to be done this way.

I've always respected King's writing. He has usually been a guy that has pointed out some bright spots for the Browns in recent years during his training camp visits.

This article actually makes me feel a bit better knowing the FO has a plan: Build through the draft with stop-gap FAs in the meantime. My guess would be that DA (or BQ) is seen as a bandaid to the QB position, regardless of GK's "no bandaids" statment. Build a team foundation first. If you have a solid foundation, a new QB could be drafted in 2011 and have relative success (ex - Flacco, Ryan, Sanchez). Our current QB will probably be starting all of 2010 too.

Of course, it makes me and probably most other Browns fans nervous to know the team will be built through the draft, given the historical failures the franchise has had. Here's to hoping these guys make better choices! Please?

So Derden..I gotta ask..what are you gonna do in two years when neither DA or Quinn are on our roster? The only posts I see from you are regarding DA.

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I guess I'm still judging Mangini on his poor judgement of our QB situation,....I mean, if he thought for a minute that neither Quinn nor DA was "it," then why didn't they draft a QB ? I can only assume he was happy with what we had,...

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Or... he didn't see the sense of putting a top 5 QB on the field with a team that he and Kokinis obviously feel needs a major overhaul. They are possible thinking they need to build a reasonably solid team before inserting an expensive, high draft pick QB in the mix.

Note what Peter King says about Atlanta and how it was not going to be so easy as drafting a QB high and picking up a solid RB in Cleveland. That too many positions needed fixed for it to work out that well here.

We have two QB's for better or worse. We need a lot of other positions. Fix the right side of the line, give Mack this season for experience as well as MoMass and Robo. Pick up a RB. Build a defense that can equal the competition and then maybe a rookie can step in and be effective like some of the other rookie QB's who have enjoyed early success.

Those teams had something to begin with and needed a QB. We need so much here that those young, successful QB's would flounder here just like our guys are doing.

ORJ
You know what? I hope Kokinis is self-reflective enough to think he blew the draft. Last thing I want is a GM who thinks he did not make any mistakes in his first draft.

So, yes, he did think he screwed up some things and expects to correct them in the future.

I know this is gonna sound nuts, but this article gave me some hope...

In another thread I got on a rant about how we've never built the foundation before we went for the glitzy picks of Couch and Quinn and to some degree even Frye..

THen I read this from Kokinis:

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To go forward, the environment here had to change. We aren't in this to put band-aids on the problem. We're here to solve the problem.

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Taking that at face value, it's refreshing to hear. Doing it may prove harder. But it's good to hear what I think is the right things..

he went on to say:

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But we'll find the true Browns who buy into what we're doing. The one thing people need to understand is this situation wasn't like Atlanta, where you can draft Matt Ryan and sign Michael Turner in free agency and win your division. This team was a long way away. Some free-agency periods and some drafts need to happen for the right amount of change to take place.''

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I can't help but feel that he gets it.. again, my thinking is that we've done it wrong for 10 years and we needed to correct the base line thinking in order to move forward..

All in all, I loved hearing all of this.. Hope they can make it work..

The thing that annoyed me about that same quote from Kokinis is it is almost verbatim what Savage said in his first year as well.



I'll believe it when I see it, my faith in the team is completely gone.

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,....I mean, if he thought for a minute that neither Quinn nor DA was "it," then why didn't they draft a QB ? I can only assume he was happy with what we had,...

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Let's get Glizty again... Let's pick another QB and watch him fail because the team around him sucks.. I'm sorry,, but that's been done and it hasn't worked.. at this point, we as fans are probably placing too much worth on a Starting QB.. when in reality,, we have so so many other issues to solve.

Getting a Big Ben, putting him on this team won't solve the problems... we still have a D that hasn't consistently stopped the run, we still have LB's that aren't up to par, we still have the Right side of the Oline that needs help and we still don't have great Safeties and at least one CB.

Based on what Mangini said in this article, I'd say that there is an equal chance that he felt his QB's were servicable until he was able to field a solid team in the other areas that need help.

At least, by thier words, that's how I'm taking it.

Players from the Jets Draft picks

Starting DE Kenyon Coleman 1st-round C Alex Mack
Starting S Abram Elam 2nd-round DL/LB David Veikune
No. 3 QB Brett Ratliff 2nd-round WR Muhammad Massaquoi
Backup WR Chansi Stuckey 6th-round RB James Davis
Backup LB/Special-teamer Jason Trusnik 6th-round CB Cory Francies
3rd-round pick in 2010 (from Jets; could rise to a 2)
5th-round pick in 2010 (from Jets)
5th-round pick in 2010 (from Bucs)
6th-round pick in 2010 (from Panthers)

Mack is starting and playing passably well. Massaquoi has started three games and is still learning the pro game

The EX Jet players have helped the front 7 a lot..even KW is having a better year already and thats from a new DC..what weak is now really being isolated greatly..and I liked the move to move Bowens inside when Barton went down..
I can't comment on Viekune because I haven't seen him play..I could and have commented on how that draft could have shaken down and what they could do..

My take: The roster is absolutely not better because no player of the skill level of Edwards or Winslow has been added. But I would have done all three deals that ManKinis did, because Winslow and Edwards were never going to buy into any long-term rebuilding program, which this has to be. There comes a time when team and player have to divorce, and if player has great success after the trade (Roger Clemens when he left Boston), it doesn't mean he'd have had the same success in his original place.


I agree with King here..there are so many just dying over Edwards performance Monday nite..doesn't suprise me..he didn't want to be here..and K2?
I really haven't heard much about him even though he has 26 catches..

"The draft is the equalizer in the NFL,'' said Kokinis. "We've got to make those [2010] picks work.''

Because of the startup nature of the program, Kokinis said he's been spending time in and around the team this fall, instead of concentrating his efforts on on-campus scouting. He said he'd do that after the college season. If I were him, I'd accelerate the process. I'd be spending three days at Texas turning over every stone on Colt McCoy, and three in Norman looking at Sam Bradford -- as well as extensive time looking at the other quarterbacks in the 2010 draft, like Tim Tebow and Jevan Snead. That's more important than whatever's happening in his building right now.


I've said this for years and supposedly Kokinis knows other rosters..this roster doesn't need a whole lot of scrutiny..he ought to know right now what this team needs..I do..and I'm not a GM..
King is way off if he thinks Tebow needs scouting ..I don't want any part of him...
News flash Koki..give me those picks and I'll get you some bonifide talent..
You better make all those picks work, and I know you'll get some more..you need to go BPA with your top four picks because the BPA this year will fill a need..

Good article. The only problem I see is that was not pointed out:

The Sanchez deal. The fifth pick in the draft. If Mangini and Kokinis wanted draft picks then they did not leverage their assets. At a minimum if they did not want Sanchez (when looking at what we now have in place is a questionable decision) then the deal should have included a first rounder in 2010. Instead we settle for roster trash. That maybe a harsh term but the Jet players we got in the trade are not impact or foundation players. They are just guys.

Then in the trade downs instead of getting market value which would have been a fourth or fifth they settle for sixth rounders. The second rounders and the (fourth or fifth rounders from the trade downs) could have given them the ammo to get back into the end of the first round and get Wells or into the second to get Maualuga.

Yes, the draft is where you build, but you must leverage the draft and always get fair market value. Last years draft was not about targeting Mack where they ended up getting him. It was about getting fair market value for the fifth pick and the subsequent trade downs.

The Winslow and Edward deals are just unfortunate. But they are deals that had to be made. Winslow was damaged goods. Edwards was a player that needed the right environment and the Browns didn't have it. He would have left, so it was a get what you can deal. Both guys could have been foundation players it just didn't work out that way. Not Mangini's fault.


The worst part of this article which is correct is that Lerner is not going to make a change any time soon. Right or wrong we have to live with the Mangini extreme make over.

Time will tell if after 2 more years this hire is again another failure by Lerner in getting the right people for the job.

The Sanchez deal. The fifth pick in the draft. If Mangini and Kokinis wanted draft picks then they did not leverage their assets. At a minimum if they did not want Sanchez (when looking at what we now have in place is a questionable decision) then the deal should have included a first rounder in 2010.

Yes..I agee with that..somehow I feel it a was a buddy deal..since we got those players they settled for a lesser pick..

Then in the trade downs instead of getting market value which would have been a fourth or fifth they settle for sixth rounders. The second rounders and the (fourth or fifth rounders from the trade downs) could have given them the ammo to get back into the end of the first round and get Wells or into the second to get Maualuga.


I also agree in part..Tampa/Philly should have been held to top compensation .I never got or heard any explanation of why they settled for those picks..we should have gotten a third out of one of those trade downs.

There is an explanation about the Mack trade down. Selecting Mack where he was selected instead of drafting a player with the 5th pick saved the Browns around $40 million in cap room.


No, thats not what I meant..I want to know why KoMan settled for the lower picks off the tradedowns from all three teams when those picks were clearly not the normal compensation.

Ok I thought so but wasnt sure. Im guessing he evaluated all the possible trade scenerios and just didnt take the first offer. Im also guessing he wanted to keep Winslows contract demands out of the papers when he had players the team wanted to keep (Dawson, Cribbs) who want new contracts.

I would give Cribbs any available money right now. The guy deserves it. He isnt a WR but his run set up the teams first FG. This guy desrves any kind of raise asap. I couldnt belive the posters on this board who were upset at Cribbs when he isnt even making 1/100th of the teams payroll. I see alot higher percentage of the teams production then 1/100th. I got awnsers like "life aint fair". What an easy cop out of an awnser. Its like making a comparison and someone saying "apples and oranges". Easy way for people that like to debate and argue to shoot down your argument. Its usually the people I see that like to argue and debate that use them phrases.

Ok I thought so but wasnt sure. Im guessing he evaluated all the possible trade scenerios and just didnt take the first offer.

it sounds like they settled for it.
The Jets deal was done on Friday from the reports..but he still should gotten more for that move.
They gave a second..well thats ony half of what they should have gotten..a high pick this offseason should have been sealed.
Same for TB and Philly..you tell them they want to move up.. give up a 4th ..not a 6th ..and thats not demanding too much..the charts show those moves should have cost those teams a 4th..not a 6th..

don't know how you decide who is in the top but you also forgot players like kurt warner, tony romo, matt hasselbeck, marc bulger, jake delhomme, jeff garcia, etc who have all shown the ability to succeed in this league. they just happen to not be doing much THIS season.

that said, like brian billick said recently, the success rate of a qb in the first round is 30/70, with 70% of them failing. it's more than just a matter of drafting a qb in the 1st round. it's circumstance. we don't have enough pieces where a 1st round qb will be the difference next year. that's why it'd be safer to either keep a qb we have now or sign a vet and go through next season.