DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Objectively Evaluating the Browns Future

For some time now I have been trying to objectively evaluate the Browns future...and it has not been easy.

I think in order to really see what the future holds, the entire team must be broken down into manageable pieces. I'm gonna need help from some level-headed, football-savvy people to do this right.

I'll start:

It appears that we will have the opportunity to make some noise in next year's draft. We have several picks now and some extra mid-to-late round picks that can help us move around to get a guy we covet. We have some guys to trade that other teams might actually want - BQ, Wimbley, that's all I'll say about that. (This situation is better than what we had last year.)

From what I see and understand, we are in very good shape regarding the salary cap. Not drafting at #5 last draft and limiting BQ's involvement saves a ton of money alone. (This situation is better than what we had last year...but then again, I don't remember us being in "cap hell" for quite some time.)

While the jury will be out on Mangini for some time yet, I think he is waaaaaaay better than RAC. Ryan is better than Tucker. Daboll is...well...I don't think he is any better. (This situation is better than what we had last year...I hope.)

The back end of our roster sure is different...and I think it is better. Don't shoot the messenger here, but that influx of Jets got us to that point. Not flashy, but a lot of our back end guys from last year are no longer in the league, are a non-factor in the league, or on a PS somewhere. Ali, Rucker, Bell, Steptoe, Cousins, S Smith, L Leonard, L Williams, H Abdullah, etc. (This situation is better than what we had last year.)

Here is where I will stop and ask for your help...THE STARTERS. In order to effectively participate, you have to breakdown your position of choice and really discuss the players, their ceiling, their future, their backups, their limitations, etc.

For instance, if you are going to discuss an O Lineman, discuss them all. In order to evaluate whether we are "getting better" you cannot objectively evaluate just one guy in a unit. (This is a perfect one for eotab...and too bad vers isn't around for that discussion.)

I think Attack is a DB kind of guy...someone else surely has some knowledge of WRs, LBs, etc.

For a sense of order, the DBs include the safeties...lump the TEs with the RBs...and keep your QB comments to another thread.

DL, LB, DB

OL, WR, RB/TE

Special Teams

If you have the guts to reply in this thread, please try and teach us something and give us something to watch for ourselves.

There will not be a quiz at the end.

Should we start with the QB's?

I hope this thread turns out positive and not into a dq vs da shouting match.

I think our D-line has showed much improvement over last year. That might be with Rogers snaps being limited this year and having him take practices off (foot injury?). Bowens has made some nice plays. Corey Williams has showed up at times. Rubin has looked alright. I see much improvement. I remember Orpheus Roye. He was our best D-lineman for a long time. Now we have two or three that are producing as well.

DQ vs DA? Did I miss something?

My money is on DQ. Perhaps another wrinkle to the QB situation?

Ok, I'm done....

Well he has certainly thrown less interceptions than all our other QB's

Although somewhat deeper than the previous years, we're just not flush with starting material. I think many of our starters will be our depth in a few years. We've got a ways to go until a lost FA here or there doesnt hurt too bad like Pitt. and NE. They lose a few, plug a few in and it still works remarkably well. It takes good, experienced depth to gain that.

This could or I'll go as far to say is the most crucial draft in the pre and post 99 history of this club!

you both are banned! lol

RBs.

I like Vickers as FB, I think a FB is handy to have around, would like to see him catch more balls however. In fact, I'd like to see us throw more to all the RBs.

Jamal: I don't think Jamal will sign here. IIRC he's a FA, and if he's to play another season I think he'd rather go to a SB contender. We might even cut him if he stays.
I like him a lot, but he's gone after '09 IMO.

Jerome: Has some skills, but IMO he's not a franchise back.
Jennings: haven't seen enough, and really he's a PS guy right now.
James Davis: unknown.

I wish we had a "franchise back" like AP or LT (who doesn't?) but they don't grow on trees.
And mangini strikes me as a coach who likes to spread the playing time around with his RBs, if they're all capable.
If the RB class isn't deep next season, as some state, then it won't be worth it to draft one in 1st round (besides, we need to go LB, DL or maybe RT).
Maybe a good RB can be had in the 2nd??? It's very difficult to say whether James Davis or Jerome can be our feature back... maybe they will but the odds aren't great.

Objectively you say? I'll start with the QB's...doh! did I just say that. LOL. To be honest, some of these guys might not even consider coming back and will look for a fresh start elsewhere if their contracts are up.
RB's and TE's

Jamal- Too expensive, I don't think I can watch him another year. He shouldn't be a starter anymore and dont think he would start on too many teams right now..if any. Cut ties.

Jerome- I like him, not a feature back in my opinion. If he wants to stay here and accepts his role at a decent rate is a better question. Honestly, guys like Jerome are a dime a dozen. Everyone has a Jerome Harrison on their team.

Davis- He showed glimpses in Pre-season. I liked what I saw and then I didn't like what I saw. Obviously we hang on to him, see what"s there.

Vickers is awesome when the guy behind him can keep up.
There is not one Tight end I would lose sleep over if we lost them. Heiden is on the backside of his career and he is the only one I liked. Clean House.

I like the line from center left. Get rid of anyone on the right you may.

WR's- Keep MoMass, Robo and Stuckey. Stuckey and Furrey are the same player only Stucky was part of a trade for our #1 receiver and he is younger.

I will comment on the other side of the ball later.

I think you need to score a playmaker....a game changer or a difference maker with our #1. That means no Converted D-ends to Linebackers, No O-linemen. No crapshoot QB's until you have a team that is built to sustain one and you can plug in to a cohesive talented unit.

Whoever their first three picks are they have to hit home runs with them. I would look at Mays, Spikes and Damian Williams with the first pick. Ndamukong Suh is intriguing also, and he would create havoc and possibly allow our LB to get to the QB.. You can't go wrong with the pedigree and level of competition with Mays. Williams is a stud, and Spikes would immediately be our best LB. I dont think you can miss with any of those guys.

So it appears quite possible that we could be down to Davis, Jennings, and Perriman as RBs and Vickers at FB...holdovers that is. That's scary.

I'd still like to see more of Harrison to determine what we've really got in him. I find it odd that he can't get his "chance", yet when he DOES get the ball he gets some impressive yardage.

The TE situation is scary also...I am afraid Heiden is done...The Rucker fallout was unexpected - at least by me. Royal is a stop-gap...but the gap is bigger than what he can fill.

I appreciate the reply, but your comments are way too general for what I am looking for here. For instance:

Quote:

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I like the line from center left. Get rid of anyone on the right you may.

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So you would have us get rid of Fraley, Hadnot, Womack, and St Claire. I think Fraley is the reason the line started playing better after Womack went down...don't know why Womack got the start at Pitt...but I did not see the game to get a feel for how the O line played with him in there again.

I am far from being an O line guru, but that's what I saw anyway.

I think we keep Fraley for his versatility and smarts...one of Womack or St Claire has to stay as a backup to the two new guys that we need because one must be a backup RT/LT. These guys "are what they are" and won't get better unless we have a stud on both sides of them...they are not getting any younger either.

I have no clue on Hadnot...when he was healthy last year I was unimpressed...of course he was playing next to Shaffer who is now a backup in Chicago...so who knows?

I suspect that we will go for a first-day RT and use a combo of Fraley/Hadnot/Womack/Tucker to hold down the RG and interior backup spots.

I hate to "count on" Tucker again next year as he very well may be done...but, if he could give us another year, that would make all the difference in the world. I think he IS done as a RT though, so I bet St Claire is on this team again next year.

At the end here, I'll say we need to spend a first day pick on a new RT.

There'a also free agency to consider, Willie (for most units). Whatever we do in FA next March - if anything - will have a direct result on how we approach the draft. Will we have fairly significant cap space???

As to our backs, we have to make a move. I thought I was being clearer on that last night whe I wrote the original post, but maybe I was too vague.
Whether it's in the draft, a trade for a player who's team is deep at RB, or a FA running back (no idea who might be available in five months as a free agent) we can't go into 2010 with the guys we currently have.

I don't want to draft an RB in the 1st because other needs are too numerous, but we gotta upgrade.

I'm just speculating that part of the motive behind trading BE and KW2 was placing the team in a better salary cap position to sign the personnel M/K wants. Both of them were going to want a ton of money to stay,if they were indeed going to stay.The bonus was some draft picks in a year that we will be drafting high.

Although I like Shaffer better than St. Clair ,the contract Shaffer had was not in line with his level of performance,at least that is what I think their (M/K) reasoning was. I pick on St. Clair alot but I think he would be a fine BACK-UP and is not a starter. I use him as an example of one of the players that are starters that should be back-ups. In fact I would like to bring Shaffer back as a back-up next year and cut St. Clair........ JMO

We don't need to back fill the roster as much as we need to front fill in about 7 to 9 positions depending on who develops and who doesn't.

I would also like to see a RT drafted early b/c I don't think we will be able to get one in FA b/c of stiff competion in the FA market for tackles.

Also a ILB that scares the bejeezus out of RBs would be nice if we could get one.
I don't want to take a chance on a 1st round QB in this draft.

for the future theres a lot of things to consider and things that need to improve.

Lets assume we're picking at #6 next year, because i give us that...id say we finish better than STL, Detroit, KC, TB, and Buffalo.

so going off that...ill come back to that.

FA...from KFFL http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/fa.php?y=2010

I think we look to sign a guy to compete with Anderson for a starting spot and let it go there. I look to 2 guys on that list that I would consider. Kyle Boller and Kellen Clemens. Kellen has just been the most forgotten man in history and he's familiar with Mangini and would be a good fit, and a new start but not completely new would not have him expecting to start. But give him a chance to compete for a starting spot. Not in the traditional OPEN COMPETITION that we've had. Tell him that if he comes in and lights it up, and proves that he is a better QB that he will be given the chance to start. Let Derek be the starter and if he gets beat out he gets beat out. but its Derek's job to lose, and he gets all the reps. Do it like KC did with Matt Cassel, say its his job, but they let Brodie Croyle feel as though he could eclipse him with better performance. I say Derek, only because I think that Brady needs to move on, and he can net us some value with a trade. There are many that think his value has flopped to the fullest extent, but thats just not true. He is still a question mark in many eyes of many peple, and someone will want to give him a shot. a team like Seattle where Hasselbeck is good but too oft-injured, or Carolina who has a question mark in Delhomme, and wants a guy who takes better care of the ball.

to the running backs...there are a few names that I see that I would like to get my hands on, but i feel a number of the guys on these lists will be RFA rather than UFA because of the expiration of the CBA. in fact Kellen Clemens i dont believe has his 6 accrued seasons either...and may require a 2nd round pick as compensation? but that would prompt me to think Kyle Boller wouldnt be a bad pickup. I think the kid got a raw deal in Baltimore which hampered his development much like Clemens, and Quinn and guys of the like. but as to RBs...Fast Willie Parker is a name i would like to see tried here. Does he have the same top end speed he used to have? no...but he's better than any guy we have here, and he knows how to win. The guy has a ring, and that would be something to have here. if not he...LaRon McClain will be an RFA for Baltimore, but IIRC he wouldnt require much compensation as he was a late pick and with the emergence of Ray Rice and the re-emergence of McGahee he has been shuffled into oblivion, and the guy is a hammer. He is a power runner who is young and had a 1000 season last year. Chester Taylor is another guy I would love to attempt to sign as his contract is up with Minnesota. additionally it says Harrison and Vickers are due to be re-signed...Id prefer to keep them both, unless Harrison wants more than he's worth, because Jennings, Peerman, or Davis can replace his production with no problems. (at some point potential just doesnt cut it anymore...right now Harrison has less 100 yard games than does Lee Suggs...so to say he's worth keeping just doesnt hold water to me...yea hes talented, but if you dont get snaps, theres a reason for it, and i want a guy who will command snaps. I understand Jerome has done good things for us, and may go somewhere and be good...but hes been too inconsistent to keep...you make yourself dispensible or indespensible through performance...not potential.)

looking at WRs...the offseason FA will not be kind. Theres a total of 1 name id really like to have and he's been shuffled out of the mix in Philly with Jackson and Maclin and co there...Jason Avant. I'd try to sign him, but other than him...theres no one there thats worth a pile of beans. maybe a year of TO to give us a number 1. I'm sure he could drop DA passes with the rest of our roster.

i think the TE spot is where we need to make signings. Brandon Manumaleuna is the hardest to say but the name most attractive to me. also...Anthony Fasano. If we can sign those 2 or any of the following Quinn Sypnewski, Joe Klopfenstein, or Jeremy Tuman, than we'll be very set at TE. we'll still have Royal, but he wont be so called on to catch passes, he can focus on blocking...and really he'll be very dangerous as a #2 TE. Thatll be good because he's a good pass catcher as a #2...not a #1 though. Fasano would be a good #1...and Manumaleuna would be a good #2 to keep Royal at #1. Klopfenstein could be a #1. Sypnewski and Tuman could be #2s.

on the OL...we need a new right side...keep Fraley (and let him challenge for the RG spot as he is talented enough to play), Mack, Steiny, and JoeT...outside of them 4...I dont see anyone really really valuable enough to really want to keep. HOWEVER...in a non-starting role i'd keep Tucker, St Clair, and Rex Hadnot. Rex can challenge for starting RG though if he stays healthy. of free agents. I would want to sign any of these tackles...Adam Terry, Eric Winston, Winston Justice (if he gets his motivation up), Marcus McNeil, Mike Gandy, Alex Barron or these guards...David Baas, Chris Snee (not that NYG will ever let him go especially as Tom Coughlin's brother-in-law), Kevin Boothe, Artis Hicks, Deuce Latui, Logan Mankins, Stephen Neal, Chester Pitts, or Rich Seubert.

Any of those names I think could be brough in to start on the right side. For reasons as...theyre starters on other teams in the league, or theyre upgrades on what we have here. While i obviously wouldnt want them all in...i wouldnt be unhappy with any of them. although for the record...I want us to draft a RT early. we can sign a guard...but we should draft a RT either 1st or 2nd round.

I'm feelin too lazy to look at the other side of the ball right now...but I am going to lay out there that i would LOVE it if we grabbed Arthur Jones from Syracuse to be a DE for us. he played DT at Syracuse and has a playing weight near 300 and would be very effective as a 2 gapper as a DE for us. He can get to the passer but is a very good run stuffer...additionally, my mom knows his Dad, and he grew up about 8 minutes away and he was a student in my mom's class at one point. a real good kid, son of a preacher, and he is a high character kid with a high motor.

Something else to consider on the OL is Tucker (on IR and not released, right?). Is he going to retire? Is he going to come back and play? If he does play, he'd instantly be the best RG on the team as it stands now.

My guess, however, is that he hangs it up.

Tucker might come back & I hope he does, but in my mind he's already gone.

Tucker is done.

Quote:

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It appears that we will have the opportunity to make some noise in next year's draft.

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To make noise in the draft one needs to be able to evaluate players....

We had the opportunity to make noise this year....

I'm still listening...

the silence is deafening.......

the only sure spots we have on this team starts with our offensive line..

Joe Thomas
Eric Steinbach
Alex Mack

I'll give Vickers his props.. He's a pretty decent fullback when he wants to be.

and then of course Shaun Rogers...

Our defense is a mess...

KOKI.. GINI.. DEFENSE WINS YOU CHAMPIONSHIPS!!

One of two things makes your team a dynasty...

1) A HOF QB

2) A one of a kind defense...

One involved ONE player.. the other involves 11... believe it or not.. it will probably be easier to get a "one of a kind defense" than finding a future HOF QB.

DEFENSE!!!

Hot B,

As pessimistic as I am, I still gotta think the team is in a little bit better shape than that,and I do mean a little.

My reasoning: An average player at every position = 8 and 8 record.

..... if only the Browns could get depth across the entire squad with players that are just average the addition of a few that are above average and a pro-bowler or two will get us a winning record and into the playoffs.

Just replace the below average with average or better.
Apparently easier said than done........

The Browns are right back to where they were when Butch Davis left. Free agents are not going to play for Mangini if they have any choice. This team has no direction.

Your best linemen are made for a zone blocking scheme and we are wanting to man up block. That means we have no one to fit that style other than Hadnot and Porkchop.

Give shanahan a call and get this thing going in the right direction. First thing repair the image.

If this regime can't hit on the greater number of it's 2010 draft picks we will be set back years and I do mean years! They had better be doing all the right things in their scouting and studies of this class.

This is a crucial draft and a blown draft will sink us for a long, long time!

nrtu

We have no starting-quality LBs and ONE starting-quality DB in E Wright.

Our DL is good and that's true even after we trade C Williams.

Our D...once again...is a house of cards.

Quote:

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...but starting nonetheless

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WSU,

I applaud your positive take but does starting on this team mean anything at this point? Would anyone other than Mack be starting for anyone else in the NFL right now? Just sayin....

Without mentioning names, there are rookies that we passed on starting for better teams....I fear leaving the 2011 draft in the hands of this regime!

There is not even 1 decent receiver on the Browns, not even 1.

The coach is the worst thing wrong with the team, because even with talent the coach cant make matchups work or be unpredictable on offense.

Mangini and Kokinis have destroyed this team. The last 3 times the Browns have had a winning season the roster has been dismantled within a year and a half.

There is not enough fan outrage!

There are not enough people calling for Mangini to go away. There is no way it should wait until the end of the season.

They do not even do the basics on offense.

Mangini was a bad hire, Stallworth was a bad hire, not cutting Stallworth earlier was a bad move. K2's release was bad if you include cutting Martin Rucker. Edwards release was scandalous. The draft day trade for elam was a mistake. Sean Jones release was a bad move. Antonio Bryant, Tim Carter, Andre Davis, Quincy Morgan, Dennis Northcutt, lots of talent gone needlessly.

Only Massaquoi would start on the 99 team at receiver. That team had Darren Chivarini and Darren Chivarini was an expansion player who really didn't belong in the NFL in my opinion.

Objectively, Subjectively, or opinion, It is the worst Browns team since 91, it is the worst coached team I can remember, it is insanity to believe in this stuff, the coach should have been gone before today and before the end of the season.
The rb's the db's the te's the wr's the d line, there is no single unit of this team you can believe in that will win the game on a given day.

There is nothing about the team to believe in. except the coaching change.

This team reminds me of the 90 bengals, it was a decade before they competed again.

It is on pace to win 2 games which is half as many as last year, and Man, Kokinis, did so much to reason that the badness of last years team which was on its fourth qb, was reason to make all these changes.
Mangini and Kokinis were a big mistake, and it gets worse every single day!

I don't know, maybe it knee jerk and maybe it's just frustration but I'm not at all sure I'm in favor of putting our draft picks into the hands of Mangini. So far the product he's provided to the organization is still as bad as we were at the end of of last season. Without even a little improvement from that debacle I'm no longer sold on the guy.

I watched the presser this evening and he's only capable of uttering the same talking points he utters every week with no improvement to show for his efforts. I think he's in over his head here but maybe I'm just frustrated that we can suck so badly...

I'd say he'd be starting than more he wouldn't. He's played really well as of late.

I did not listen to the presser, but my money says you are spot on.

I was checking out Cribbs presser... Seems like he felt he should have gotten more snaps in the wildcat with the comment he made at the very end.

I thnk we ought to run it exclusively, considering the current situation,...how much worse can it be than 1-6 with no conceivable hope of winning another contest from the QB play as is ?

Hate to pull Josh off the return team(s),...but man, something has got to change.

I'd run it 75% of the game.. like 4real..