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Quote:
Build the team, then find the QB.
#GMSTRONG
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This from King's MMQ on Jason Campbell:
The Redskins probably are going to have to get a quarterback after the season. Charley Casserly had some good tape Sunday on the CBS pregame show of Jason Campbell ignoring open receivers downfield to consistently throw checkdowns. This echoes what opposing coaches have been saying, and it's certainly part of why McDaniels wouldn't trade Cutler to the Redskins in April; he wanted a quarterback he could trust and one he felt he could win with, and that quarterback was not Campbell.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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If we're gonna get a stopgap...
MARC BULGER
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Jake Delhomme, would be a perfect stop gap.... And trust me when I say he will be available.... Change of scenery may just be what the doctor ordered.... concentrate on OL in the draft.... Plus throw an Rb in round two or three... We need help on defense as well.. but one draft at a time 
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I've now seen these suggested as stop-gap QBs (worst option at top to best bad option at bottom...IMO)....
Jason Campbell - directs the only offense in the NFL worse than ours (look at their opponents defenses....at least we can say we played teams that play defense)
Jake Delhomme - less accurate than Derek Anderson....I'm not joking...he's been horrible and that is with DeAngelo, Jonathan Stewart, and Steve Smith on his team along with a decent enough OL.....can't imagine what he would do here.
David Carr - it's called Couch-Carr Syndrome for a reason (when QBs are shell-shocked from getting hit too many times)
Marc Bulger - he's either still hurt or his head is gone....he's not the same QB from 3 years ago....perhaps he has Couch-Carr Syndrome too.
Troy Smith - ok....here's someone we don't know about....he's not getting a chance behind Flacco and you never know when you are going to catch lightning in a bottle. However, in his years at OSU, I didn't really think he had the arm or the accuracy for the NFL.....but at least he's not proven to be a bad QB yet I suppose (and his jersey would be popular).
re-read that list and let that sink back in.....yuck.
honestly, if we had to get a stop-gap QB for one year....I'd tell Mangini to dig back into the well of ex-Jets one more time (i'm sure this will be popular because of that)......
Chad Pennington - Dolphins seemed committed to Henne who has been pretty decent. Penny is a brutally accurate QB who isn't afraid to make all the throws necessary but knows his arms limitations.
#gmstrong
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I woudn't touch Jake at all. Don't think he's ever got over the playoff game against Arizona. He has 4td's and 13ints. PLus he has two good backs, and steve smith to throw to. No way would I touch him.
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Keep in mind Bulger doesn't have Holt and Bruce to throw to anymore.
Give the man some reliable targets with Joe Thomas protecting his blind side and he'll be back in business.
He has Kurt Warner left for dead only to rise again written all over him.
I'll puke if we sign Delhomme. He is done in every sense of the word.
Last edited by Ammo; 10/26/09 10:15 PM.
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sure....if we draft 2 probowl WRs who many consider both to be in the top10 in the NFL.....over the next 4 years while Bulger toils away for another team and struggles with more injury problems and fumbling..... then we pick him up and he struggles for us enough that we draft a first round QB who takes over for him except that the rookie struggles as well and we bring Bulger in to run the 2-minute drill before realizing how stupid that is and just give him the reigns back as the full time starter and decide to just live with his fumbling and injury concerns. I mean if it worked for Warner 
#gmstrong
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Quote:
sure....if we draft 2 probowl WRs who many consider both to be in the top10 in the NFL.....over the next 4 years while Bulger toils away for another team and struggles with more injury problems and fumbling.....
then we pick him up and he struggles for us enough that we draft a first round QB who takes over for him except that the rookie struggles as well and we bring Bulger in to run the 2-minute drill before realizing how stupid that is and just give him the reigns back as the full time starter and decide to just live with his fumbling and injury concerns.
I mean if it worked for Warner
You know what I mean.
Bulger has done it before. Consistently. He can do it again.
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that's why I put the pokey-guy in there.....I just think Bulger's been hit too many times at this point....maybe he can regain what he once had, but I don't think it is likely.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Jake Delhomme, would be a perfect stop gap.... And trust me when I say he will be available.... Change of scenery may just be what the doctor ordered....
concentrate on OL in the draft.... Plus throw an Rb in round two or three... We need help on defense as well.. but one draft at a time
Jake Delhomme? The guy that's turned the ball over 20+ times in his last 7 games? I would throw up in my mouth if the best we could muster at QB with 11 draft picks and lots of cap room was Jake freaking Delhomme.
We don't need a stopgap at quarterback. Carolina needs a stopgap at quarterback because they have an otherwise good team. We need a long term solution, and yes I realize that we've spent 2 high picks this decade to get that guy and those didn't work out, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the next one won't. Between good scouting and good coaching, a high pick and a little bit of luck, you SHOULD come away with a good quarterback. That is what we need.
If you want to humor yourself a bit, make a list of teams in 2008 that made the playoffs and then make a list of the teams that did not (or 2007, 2006, whatever). Then beside each team write the starting quarterback of each team along with their draft position.
Also realize that while most good quarterbacks in this league were previously first rounders (or high second), the combined number of 6th round picks, UDFA's, grocery boys, etc. is a lot higher than 1st rounders used.
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Trade Anderosn and Quinn. Pick a QB in the 1st round. Name him the unquestioned starter from day one (i.e. Peyton Manning, Matt Ryan, Mark Sanchez.)PROTECT HIM! (Tim Couch sacked 56 times his rookie year, David Carr sacked 76 (!) times his rookie year, Alex Smith sacked 29 times in 7 starts his rookie year.) If you have a rookie QB he must be protected.
Let him grow with Massaquoi and Robiske, make mistakes, and learn from them. Draft a pass catching tight end as a safety valve (we have 11 picks already.)
Hopefully some of the juniors come out too, so that we can have as many options as possible. The more QB's that are available the better the chance we have of picking the right one, the best one will stand out in a crowd.
It is potentially a deep crop of QB's coming out this year with Colt McCoy, Tony Pike, Dan LeFevour, and Tim Tebow all leaving as seniors.
Then you have juniors like Sam Bradford (already coming out,) Jake Locker, Jimmy Clausen, Jeven Snead, Case Keenum, and Christian Ponder as potential juniors coming out. You even have a pretty good redshirt sophomore in Ryan Mallett.
One of those guys I just mentioned is going to be a franchise QB. That guy needs to be on our team. And for the love of god...PROTECT HIM!!!
P.S. Are we sure freshman can't leave early? Because that Barkley guy at USC is looking pretty good.
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How many people think the Browns will draft a QB in Rd. 1 of next year's draft? Bradford, McCoy, Tebow?
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I personally don't think we will.
Do I think we should? Yes.
And I would prefer it if it wasn't any of the three QB's you named.
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The problem is right now, there is not a college QB that I would be willing to bet the future on.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Geez.. this is too easy, people get paid good money to let me know we need to fix the right side, get at least a starting LB, DB's and a RB
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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j/k
Commenting on the list.
This list is why we stink....Why do we always settle for other teams trash, ok maybe Troy Smith is unproven, he hasnt really gotten a chance, but common the others are wanna be's thier our Dilfer...our Detmer, we are 1-6 becuase our past coaches thought like this, Not saying we dont need to get another QB off someones roster, but how about Vick, or if the eagles go with Vick asking about Mcnabb. I guarntee if we sign one of those guys off that list bye game 4 next year were gonna be screaming for the back-up and crying why didnt we grab Bradford or Tebow. Tebow may not be a typical NFL QB, but the guy is a football player and is a winner, who else is like that oh ya Ben in Pittsburgh.
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Quote:
Also realize that while most good quarterbacks in this league were previously first rounders (or high second), the combined number of 6th round picks, UDFA's, grocery boys, etc. is a lot higher than 1st rounders used.
that is not true at all....i made the list last week of every starting QB and there were more 1st rounders than 6th through UDFA's.....
however, there were more 6th through UDFA's than there were 2nd-5th rounders if I remember correctly.
#gmstrong
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Here is that list of starting QBs.....though I adjusted it for Alex Smith who is now starting and was a 1st round QB for SF.....if Quinn takes over again for DA, it would shift even more towards the 1st round QBs. 20/32 current starting QBs were obtained through the draft (or first team UDFA signed with). 16/32 starting QBs were selected in round1.....that is HALF of the league's starting QBs. And yes, I considered Rivers and Eli to be with their original team as that trade happened on draft day (so the teams traded picks even though they technically didn't agree until after making the picks). Quote:
here are the starters, what round they were drafted and if they are on their original team:
NE Brady - 6th (original team)
BUF Edwards - 3rd (original team)
NYJ Sanchez - 1st (original team)
MIA Henne - 2nd (original team)
CLE Anderson - 6th (acquired via waivers/FA)
PIT Roethlisburger - 1st (original team)
BAL Flacco - 1st (original team)
CIN Palmer - 1st (original team)
SD Rivers - 1st (original team)
DEN Orton - 4th (acquired via trade)
KC Cassel - 7th (acquired via trade)
OAK Russell - 1st (original team)
INDY Manning - 1st (original team)
HOU Schaub - 3rd (acquired via trade)
JAX Garrard - 4th (original team)
TEN Collins - 1st (acquired via FA)
-------------------------------
NYG Manning - 1st (original team)
DAL Romo - UDFA (original team)
PHI McNabb - 1st (original team)
WAS Campbell - 1st (original team)
CHI Cutler - 1st (acquired via trade)
GB Rodgers - 1st (original team)
MIN Favre - 2nd (acquired via FA)
DET Stafford - 1st (original team)
ATL Ryan - 1st (original team)
CAR Delhomme - UDFA (acquired via FA)
TB J.Johnson - 5th (original team) ---- placeholder for Freeman? (1st rounder, original team)
NO Brees - 2nd (acquired via FA)
SF Alex Smith - 1st (original team)
AZ Warner - UDFA (acquired via FA)
SEA Hasselbeck - 6th (acquired via trade)
StL Bulger - 6th (acquired via FA)
So, going by just how each team got it's current starting QB.....
original team = 20 teams
acquired via trade = 5 teams
acquired via FA = 7 teams
and where they were drafted originally
1st = 16
2nd = 3
3rd - 5th = 5
6th - UDFA = 8
Here are the main takeaways that I see….
1. While you certainly can get a starting QB by other means, most teams do in fact draft their own.
2. While you certainly can find a starting QB in another round, round1 remains the predominant round to find QBs.
3. It is amazing that there are as many starting QBs in the NFL that were 6th round to UDFA than there are from rounds 2 through 5 combined (8 to 8 currently with Shaun Hill back on the bench). This includes the NFC West that was ENTIRELY comprised of QBs drafted in the 6th round or UDFA when Shaun Hill was their starter..
This by no means says we should draft a QB in round1 in 2010….it just suggests that it is likely we will have to draft a QB at some point and that it will likely have to be in round1. Enjoy.
#gmstrong
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Anyone that says Draft a QB to save this team would only set up the team for more failure.
Build the Team, then Draft a QB.
As much as I hate to use this reference, but we did have a Pro Bowler QB in 2007, and look at the talent he had surrounding him at the time.
Then 2008, Injuries aglore happened, and look at his performance.
In 2009, most of that same talent on the 2007 Squad has been traded away, lost in FA and ect, and replaced with the Jet's 2nd Teamers and Rookies.
Build the Team, then Draft the QB. Like I said:
Upgrade the RG/ROT Position (Either in the Draft or Free Agency)
Upgrade the HB Position or use our two young backs (Drafting an HB would be easier)
Upgrade the TE Position
Add a Veteran WR that could take over the #1 WR Position, and not someone that has never been a #1 WR and their prime has already passed long ago.
Doing that will upgrade our Offense to a point where our QB's can compete. My previous post will explain more.
But I do believe that we need to aggressively go after a Playmaker on Defense in the Free Agency.
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The more I find out about this regime, about Daboll, about how things are run and how horrible the talent level is right now, the more I think we need to build up the offense and then get a QB. The more I watch of this team, the more I am convinced that both DA and Quinn could become good QB's in this league, plausbly with real NFL coaching. Do I think its likely? Probably not....but I do think that there is hope for Quinn under a guy like McDaniels or Mike Holmgren. This team needs a couple of OL, 2 WR's, and back , and a TE....then the biggest need of all, compitent coaches. I still believe that Quinn could be a good QB in a true WCO system, if he has a solid coaching staff around him and atleast average NFL talent around him. But I'm sure that means i'm a Quinn homer, and I just hate DA. 
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I do agree with those that have said we need to build some talent at other positions before drafting a QB at least in the first round. I do believe we should bring in a free agent during the off season to compete for the starting spot. I would prefer someone who is young enough to have the potential to be 2-3 year fix if necessary. ( I had suggested trying to get David Carr from NY as I think he could still be a quality QB.I don't buy into the Couch Carr syndrome issue.)
I think if a QB we like falls to the third round this year we grab him.
We also need to answer some questions before the draft. I.E. Is Coye Francies good enough to be a starting CB opposite Eric Wright? Is Alex Hall a starting NFL linebacker? Are we happy with Poole and Elam?
I watched a little bit of the Penn state game and from what I saw of Darryl Clark he looked pretty good. Although I have only seen part of one game. Whats the word?
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Brodie Croyle.... Started for a bad Chiefs team and managed to put points on the board. Could be had for peanuts.
Bring him in, BQ and whatever top QB that slides into the top of the second round. Let em dawg fight it out and COMMIT to that QB for a whole season.
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and I agree....I am against drafting a round1 QB this year....
I was just showing that a round1 QB is likely in our future at some point....I don't want one until we are ready to support one though (2011 draft perhaps)
#gmstrong
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Usually every draft there is one QB drafted in the 1st round that turns out to be a franchise guy. At least just thinking about it I think there is.
Let's go back to 1995 (because it's a nice number) and take a closer look at the 1st round QB's
Since 1995 thirty-five QB's have been taken in the 1st round. Let's put them into four groups: Franchise, Mediocre, Bust, Too Soon.
Franchise - There are eleven guys. McNair, Manning, McNabb, Palmer, Manning, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Cutler, Ryan, and Flacco. Any one of those eleven guys you can build a team around and would feel comfortable with them being your highest paid player.
Mediocre - There are five. Collins, Culpepper, Pennington, Vick, and Leftwich. All of these guys got the job done at some point in their career. If it wasn't for the dog fighting Vick would be a franchise guy. Any of these will/would succeed with the proper pieces around them (i.e. defense, running game, playmakers, etc.)
Bust - There are also eleven. Druckenmiller, Leaf, Couch, Akili Smith, McNown, Carr, Harrington, Ramsey, Boller, Losman, and Russell. Drafting any of these in the first round would have been franchise crippling. Drafting a QB (or any player) in the first round and having them bust is devastating. It will set a team back years. As it did/has done with all the QB's listed above (besides Ramsey.)
Too Soon - There are eight. Alex Smith, Campbell, Young, Leinart, Quinn, Freeman, Stafford, and Sanchez. These guys either are too young, haven't gotten a proper opportunity, have been stuck behind a veteran, or been injured. Any of these guys could end up being franchise. They could all also be busts. It's too soon to tell.
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Now let's go back and look at all the QB's that have been selected in all the rounds after the 1st round and compare. We'll put them into these two categories: Franchise and Mediocre
Franchise - There are three. Hasselbeck, Brady, Brees. Like above. You could build a team around these guys and have them be your highest paid player.
Mediocre - There are eleven. Rob Johnson, Kordell Stewart, Plummer, Tony Banks, Griese, Bulger, Garrard, Schaub, Orton, Derek Anderson, and Chad Henne. Like before, if everything else is going right, these guys will/could win you some games.
This means one-hundred twenty-three QB's have been drafted and either been irrelevant or career backups.
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45% of QB's drafted in the 1st round since 1995 have turned out to be franchise guys or mediocre. That means 55% have been busts.
10% of QB's drafted in any round other than the 1st have been franchise guys or mediocre since 1995.
I guess what I'm getting at is, if you need a franchise QB, the best place to get one is the 1st round. Yes there are exceptions (Kurt Warner, Tony Romo, Jake Delhomme) but those are mostly luck.
In this upcoming draft, chances are, there will be a guy drafted in the 1st round that will end up a franchise QB. We need to get that guy.
P.S. Then protect him.
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Quote:
Quote:
Also realize that while most good quarterbacks in this league were previously first rounders (or high second), the combined number of 6th round picks, UDFA's, grocery boys, etc. is a lot higher than 1st rounders used.
that is not true at all....i made the list last week of every starting QB and there were more 1st rounders than 6th through UDFA's.....
however, there were more 6th through UDFA's than there were 2nd-5th rounders if I remember correctly.
I think you misunderstood what I said because I agree with you completely. What I meant was this-- there are some QB's in the league like Brady, Warner, and Romo that were taken with minimal investment. Most good QB's in the league were first rounders though (or early second). There are also a ton of mid-late round-UDFA types as well, the vast majority of which don't pan out.
Basically, your best bet of finding a good QB is at the top of the draft.
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Quote:
Brodie Croyle....
Seriously, this is the type of players that has lead us to the 1-6 path for years, Brodie is not a very good QB, he's serviceable, meaning he can take a snap & tie his cleats. Brodie is on the same lines as Holcomb, Detmer, Garcia, lets say just say no to a Brodie Croyle 
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Sorry, bud, but Garcia is a pretty good QB. Butch just screwed the pooch in the way they used him.
We'd have a couple more wins by now if Garcia was here, IMO.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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I'm just still lost on why we have Ratliff and not Bartel? If Bartel were still here I'd be in favor of putting him out there to see what he could do, there's no way I want to see Ratliff.
#GMSTRONG
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Bartel clearly outplayed Ratliff ..but the problem is that Rat is Gini's boy they got in the trade,..so how would that look if he kept Bart?
IMO it would have been the best move..I could care less who came in the trade you keep the best players...
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If that is Mangini's decision making process, favoritism over what's best for the team, I'd like to see him gone sooner rather than later.
#GMSTRONG
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what message does it send to the rest of the team that if you perform better than one of his guys you either sit or get booted?
It's no wonder this team sucks.
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Unless DA does a 180 turn in his play (which never lasts for long), I don't see the point of sitting BQ after the bye week.
gmstrong -----------------
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Sorry, bud, but Garcia is a pretty good QB. Butch just screwed the pooch in the way they used him.
Your probebly right on that one, Botch did screw that up pretty good. He had a nack of doing that alot 
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Everywhere Garcia has been, he's done a pretty good job. Except here. what's that tell ya. Butch tried to work against what the guys skills are. It failed and he went elsewhere..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Everywhere Garcia has been, he's done a pretty good job. Except here.
He sure took the Lions and Raiders to the promised land. 
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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I wonder if Collins will leave Tennessee after this year. He is old as dirt, but can play.
Of the others mentioned, I would probably look at Carr the closest.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,267
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,267 |
I wonder what it would take to get Vick out of Philly. Vicks no great QB but he's a lot of fun to watch. Which is a lot more than I can say for the current Browns... so called.... offense
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,877
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,877 |
Quote:
He sure took the Lions and Raiders to the promised land.
Gees J, never said the guy was a savior or anything,, just that he did better everywhere else...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Why We Need a Quarterback
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