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http://www.mercedsunstar.com/359/story/1133331.htmlQuote:
CLEVELAND -- The Browns have reached the time for a difficult decision regarding the future of Eric Mangini: There shouldn't be one.
Sunday was another humiliating loss, this one to the Green Bay Packers, at home. The 31-3 final does not do it justice.
The Browns were abysmal.
Yes, a bunch of guys had the flu during the week, and the flu stinks.
But so do the Browns - now 1-6 and playing worse.
The Packers were playing without two starters on the offensive line. They found a way to play well, to compete, to win.
Which is what mentally tough teams do.
The Browns find ways to lose, to botch games, to turn a loyal-to-a-fault fan following dispassionate and blase.
Coach Eric Mangini did not deserve the personal shots taken at him in Rolling Stone last week, but professionally, he has done nothing with this team except make it worse.
The Browns ended last season playing their third- and fourth-string quarterbacks. This season's team has its roster, minus the normal number of injuries. It's not overly beaten up, and it's not an expansion team.
Yet it's the worst Browns team since the jubilant return in 1999.
This is Mangini's team. It's his approach, coaching staff and roster - with 23 new players on opening day (and 10 former New York Jets now on the team).
The Browns have been humiliated on the road in Baltimore and Denver, embarrassed at home by the Minnesota Vikings and the Packers. They lost by three to the Cincinnati Bengals then won by three in Buffalo.
Imagine - the highlight of the season is a three-point win over the Bills, when the starting quarterback completed two passes.
The two quarterbacks have regressed to the point that they don't resemble the guys who played the previous two seasons. All the Browns have done with Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn is destroy their trade value.
Quinn was yanked after 10 quarters. The past 12 quarters, Anderson has gone 23-for-70, yet during a blowout loss Sunday, Quinn never looked for his helmet.
Is there any clearer indication that he has absolutely no future with the Browns?
Go down the roster, especially to the places Mangini made changes. The right side of the line? No better. Neither are the other spots where Mangini brought in "his" guys - at receiver, tight end, safety, inside linebacker or defensive end. Not to mention offensive coordinator.
Too, consider the teams that former coaches Butch Davis and Romeo Crennel took over. None had a Shaun Rogers at nose tackle, a Josh Cribbs, a Joe Thomas, an Eric Steinbach.
Mangini did not take over a 12-win team, but he also did not take over one that should lose by 28 at home.
After the loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers eight days ago, their offensive coordinator, Bruce Arians, said the Steelers noticed the Browns like to blitz the safeties on first and second down. If you protect, Arians said, you can make big plays by running guys through the vacated area.
Guess what the Packers did in the first quarter? It saw safety Abram Elam blitz, then sent Donald Driver to Elam's area for a 71-yard touchdown that featured yet more missed tackles.
The players can say they're playing hard for their coach.
The evidence isn't there.
The Browns can keep hoping that things will get better and the "foundation" is being built.
If they do, they're fooling themselves.
It's difficult and painful to admit a mistake, but coaches have been replaced sooner.
The Browns and owner Randy Lerner need to start considering this possibility. Seriously.
Is it fair to Mangini? Probably not. He's trying, he's working. He doesn't want to lose. But it's not working. The Browns could win next Sunday, yes, but what does that make them? Two-and-six.
And is it any less fair than it was to Quinn to have 10 quarters to prove himself? Mangini wanted this system where he decides personnel. It's his show, and his record.
Most important, though, is perpetuating this situation fair to the fans who have to watch this nonsense week after week after week? To give them this kind of effort and play after they've spent so much of their hard-earned money?
If the Browns think they have problems now, wait until December, when it's cold, and 25,000 are in the stands and games are blacked out locally. And wait until they start selling tickets for 2010.
The only thing worse than making a mistake is not admitting it.
Continuing a mistake "just because" only compounds the mistake.
The Browns' defense has been terrible all season, but coordinator Rob Ryan might be able to reach the players in a way Mangini hasn't. He's done nothing to earn the job, except be the best option on the staff to be an interim.
Heck, it can't be worse.
It's a tough decision for Lerner, because he personally hired Mangini. But this team has gotten worse - in every way - and there's no evidence short of a 6-3 win in Buffalo that the team believes in what it's being told.
Nor is there a shred of evidence that it will get better.
The time has come to recognize a mistake, make a tough decision and start over again next season. It's another restart and that's one more too many, but maybe it will produce better results and some long-lost continuity.
What's taking place is simply not working.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Firing Mangini would be a mistake.
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I woud only fire him for shanahan, or Cowher.
Mangini tore this thing down, you have to give him time to dig himself out.
It looks bad right now, but no sense firing him now, unless the 2 other coaches want the job.
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Legend
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Another fine piece from the disgruntled jackass....(McManamon, not Rish  )
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Firing Mangini would be a mistake.
I agree..
I hate seeing bad football... but firing him would only lead to another roster purge...
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Is keeping the roster we have valuable in some way I'm missing?
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Is keeping the roster we have valuable in some way I'm missing?
Other than the obvious handfull of players to keep, nope.
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Quote:
Quote:
Firing Mangini would be a mistake.
I agree..
I hate seeing bad football... but firing him would only lead to another roster purge...
Purging this roster would be a good thing. Mangini shouldn't have tore it down without the pieces for rebuilding.
Denver purged their roster, but they had a plan and are undefeated because of it.
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Quote:
but firing him would only lead to another roster purge...
What's left to purge?
yebat' Putin
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All Pro
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I agree starting over is bad. But are we not used to it? How was it not a mistake to fire Palmer after two seasons? Palmer helped the Browns get the worst record in franchise history. And Mangini is heading right towards breaking that record. Is that acceptable in the name of implied progress? Botch after ....was it one and a half or two and a half until terry Robiski? Butch at least had us competitive. I would kill to be in that position Then I was against Romeo being let go without one more year. Then I thought ...why? So..... why would it be such a huge mistake? Maybe for Lerner's wallett. But if we keep on this track Lerner's wallett will still get a little thinner. Just playing devils advocate. 
Einstein could not even fathom the mathematical improbabilities of the Browns woes.
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Honestly I'm not opposed to it.
The only thing they haven't done is to text the fans to go root for Buffalo.
Their player personnel moves have been deplorable, they've handled the QB position poorly, the draft does not look like it was a homerun.
We've gone backwards and it's something I couldn't even fathom after the end of last season.
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This Pat Mac guy is right....so was I...like 6 month ago, lol....guy's a joke, a KNOWN running gag in league circles....and we crown him king here...what makes this move us look like? He's obsessed with "detail" and always trying to outsmart and coach according to opponent...without even thinking about establishing an own identity. We have the best ST-unit in the NFL, I'm not even joking/sarcasm here, really....but it's a perfect example of what being obsessed with "details" is all about: he signed 25 (!) of our 53 man roster....most of them are superb ST but sucky/slow on D or O...ST wins games, yeah...like every 10th...the rest is won on O and D Penguin...at least when we're at 1-9 he won a game with ST, lol....I hope he's proud then...he even drafted players and labeled them ST players (Veikune+Maiava), so whack, you draft looking starters through round 5 at least.... another obsession example: Massa and Robo being good blockers...lol...again, what is position prority? hands and separation....both lack at least in 1 of those 2 MAIN area....meanwhile the Steelers drafted a better WR in round 3 and Indy Collie in round 4...that's why they are PIT and INDY and we are CLE....right there you have it can't wait for the apologists drinking Cartman's cool aid hook, line and sinker..."it's a process"...yeah, of sucking and getting worse... "we are improving/playing hard"...really? what games are you guys watching? I'm seeing the same problems and mistakes over and over and over again without ANY adjustments......we really have to avoid another offseason with this clown calling the shots....that's all what's left what I'm pulling for....oh and I'm fading CLE to the bank EVERY sunday and I advice you to do the same, that lessens the blow and gives some money back we get ripped off for this pathetic mess of a team.....GB -7 was a nice gift 
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Its time to make the change. Mangini has produced a team that will be underdogs to the Lions and Raiders I know the continuity crew will be out in full force but damn it nothing good can come of mangini staying.
Free agents will be treating this coach the way they did butch davis you overpay for average guys.
Fire now and start your courtship of Cowher, shanahan, Gruden
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Mangini is always playing defense...
Let's play some offense where teams have to game plan against US for once!!
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Take a seat on the bandwagon Mourg....glad to see you on it.
I'd try for Parcells in same capacity he's with MIA now....he's always looking for size/speed guys and that'S what we need as a foundation. It's being reported that it's his last year with the Dolphins....Lerner should throw whatever money Billy wants at him and let him run all football operations from there
Build it the right way this time Randy....vet Uber-GM who hires his GM and them together their coaches....I want this way to be tried at least once please
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Firing Mangini would be the same mistake that we keep making. Firing guys when they are having a bad year.
I didn't watch past the first five minutes of the game cuz I had some work to take care of......but I saw the final score and can't say I was that surprised.
Once we traded BE it became apparent to me that this team is going to be hard-pressed to win 4 games this year.
I am more interested to see what happens in the offseason and the draft because there is no sense debating firing anyone, or benching anyone----it isn't going to help!!!!!
This team in DEVOID of ANY playmakers, except Josh Cribbs, who is mainly a KR/PR/gadget guy, i.e. a guy who isn't going to see a whole hell of a lot of oportunities. Maybe 10-15 touches a game if we are lucky. Jerome Harrison has some skills in the open field too---but again, he is not an every down type player.
Our ONLY threats with the ball only see the field in situational roles.
We need an everydown rb, an everydown te, a legit number 1 wide-out, and a line that actually gets some push and opens holes before we will see any kind of offensive success.
You can switch QB's, OL, RB, WR, TE, and all woul be for not, cuz this team just doesn't have the pieces to compete. We don't have a single player that can be the "go-to" guy. We don't have an experienced OC that might be able to overcome our roster deficiencies. We don't have a QB who can magically pull first downs and td's out of his back pocket. We don't have much of anything, except maybe one thing.
I believe that Mangini has got time to build his team. I think that Lerner is going to let this thing play out for the next few years no matter how bad things get.
He traded away pretty much every player that was here to help us "win now," and stockpiled draft picks to build the future. He fields a patchwork of a team ech week that is forced to either play soundly or be humiliated. Often, we are humiliated. And when we play decent, we still lose.
There is really no reason to expect us to win this season. We have nothing on this team that even remotely suggest a winning franchise.
Other than two marquee pieces; maybe three, an LT and a NT, and a ST demon---there really isn't much else here.
We have some guys who are decent role players in Steinbach, Pool, DQ (before injury), Wimbley, DA/BQ (whoever your guy is), E. Wright.
We have some 1st and 2nd rd rookies who may develop into better players in Mack, Robo, and MoMass.
And then we have a bunch of cast-offs, lower round projects and stop-gaps that I don't even want to go through the process of mentioning.
Bottomline, our QB's are decent enough to bring the team out of the huddle and to the LOS looking like a respectable NFL squad---but after the snap, we have little going for us except maybe a rookie receiver surprising us by making a play on the ball whoever throws his way. We can maybe focus on our elite LT and watch him dominate his opponent every snap. But we don't have any consistent threat to run, throw, or catch the ball. We don't have a line that can open holes or give our QB all day to pick apart the defense.
Our offense is that bad. It has one great player and a few role-players. The rest are rookies, stop-gaps, or broken down veterans with arguably nothing left in the tank.
Our defense is the same mangled squad. It has an elite NT, and a couple/few role-players in DQ, Wimbley, EW, Pool. The other guys are less-than-solid stop-gaps, late-round projects, and poorly disguised liabilities.
While our DL is pretty solid acrossed the board, our perimeter defense is horrendous.
SO its pretty safe to say, that with only two studs, and only a handful of capable role-players we are not ready to compete within our division. We even have some pretty tough odds beating anyone in the NFL.
We just do not have the personnel to be a competitive team. And we won't have the personnel to be a competitive team for a couple years.
IMO, we need our wr to grow into their positions, and maybe one of them will develop into a legit threat----right now Momass is the favorite to do this. I think that we need to see some kind of consistency by the end of the year. In the offseason both of these guys need to get stronger---and they have to continue to grow as players.
We need to draft or aquire a rb, and a te that can either play right away or develop into solid players. We need to address the right side of the line. Both RG, and RT. If this happens, I believe that that gives our QB's longer odds of being the guy. If Mangini decides to get another QB--I hope he fixes everything else first.
We also need to get ourselves some better lb's across the board. We need at least one solid, physical cb. And beyond that, we need depth acrossed the entire defense.
To reiterate. This team is nowhere near ready to compete, and there is no quick fix. Benching guys or firing coaches is not the answer.
We need to continue with this group of guys and let them grow into a team. We will continue building through the draft and Man/kok will determine which guys belong here. IMO, there are only two elite guys who are untouchable. There are a few role-players who may end up staying here in the long run. The rest is a work in progress.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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I have never liked Mangini but i wanted to give him a chance. This team gets worse everytime out. Go to Ryan let him finish the season and in the meantime begin a true search for thee guy.
I wouldnt mind seeing a team president that is the tie breaker on decision making. president hires GM and they must agree on the HC. all have some say on who to draf and who to trade for.
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Firing Mangini would be the same mistake that we keep making. Firing guys when they are having a bad year.
Where are those head coaches that were fired? there is a reason they arent head coaches in the nfl.
Get it right and you dont have to fire. Romeo was a good guy and players related to him but he was a horrible in game coach. Butch was probably the best coach but he was clueless in how to deal with players and how to identify talent.
Thus far Mangini is like taking all the negatives for bad head coach and adding them together.
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Quote:
Get it right and you dont have to fire. Romeo was a good guy and players related to him but he was a horrible in game coach. Butch was probably the best coach but he was clueless in how to deal with players and how to identify talent.
Thus far Mangini is like taking all the negatives for bad head coach and adding them together
That has the makings of a sig 
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Wade Phillips look of incredulity - check Mike Brown eye for talent - check Napolean Bonaparte managerial skills - check Isiah Thomas likeability factor - check Romeo Crennel hankerin for cheezburgurs - check Then add a dash of $1,701 fines for players not paying their hotel water bottle bill. Priceless
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Whose to say that they stay outta the league?
We coulda stayed with RAC. He had a bad years last year that spiraled outta control with injuries, especially at the QB position. I didn't see a real reason to fire him.
As for the Butch years---I didn't really follow football so closely then..
This year we got rid of every significant offensive weapon we had. We brought on some former Jets to breed familiarity with Mangini for the rest of the roster.
We have a roster consisting of two legit studs and a few capable every down starter. The rest are situational players/stop-gap/liabilities.
We aren't gonna be competitive this year. Once BE was traded we were in full-blown rebuild mode. We officially had no focus on the offensive side of the ball.
I am fine with giving Mangini three years to bring in players.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Holmgreen, Cowher, Shanahan, Gruden folks you know the Skins are going to be courting heavy. The Chargers will be looking. Cowboys will be looking. Carolina and Jacksonville most likely will be looking.
If you want a shot at one of these guys start the courtship NOW!!!!
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Would welcome any of them. Gladly.
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Legend
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j/c Isn't it ironic that a lot of the same people calling for Mangini's head are the same one's that said we didn't give Quinn a fair chance?
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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I would probably feel better about Mangini if a GM had hired him and Mangini not brought in his own guy. It feels like Butch Davis and Pete Garcia all over again, but perhaps on a lower scale.
I don't believe in firing the guy after 1 year, but after what these two did in the draft and free agency I can't see much hope for the future.
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It is again disappointing to see this happen to the Browns again.
While I generally agree with the rationale for dumping Winslow and Edwards, the problem is that we did not backfill with any players who can contribute to this team now.
The QB situation is a mess. The Browns won't play Quinn until after the bye to save 10M in an uncapped salary situation.
Don't look for a turn around next year, I don't care if the Browns have 20 choices, it cannot be melded into a competitive team.
I have not been this frustrated since the day Botch bailed on the team.
The Browns have no chance in the FA market. With Mangini's reputation no one in their right mind would come to Cleveland.
Bring in someone the fans can believe in (Gruden, Shanahan or Cowher, hell even Marty). I don't believe in this moron.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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I hate to say it, but Im all for a new coach, if and only if its a big name guy, preferably either Cowher or Holmgren. The cubbard is bare. And the players that stay are going to pretty much stay the same no matter who is here.
If we are going to do it, might as well do it before Mangini wastes our 11 picks. Actually I might even consider handing it over to Ryan just so that there isnt wholesale change.
He is the Manning of Coaching. No one can argue the guys pedigree.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
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I've never been one for not giving a guy a chance, but at this point I'd love to see Mangini gone. As noted in several posts above, he's done so many things terribly. In all honesty, the only things I truly like that he's done is cutting salary (Winslow and Edwards) and accumulating draft picks. I'd love to see what Holmgren, Shannahan, Cowher, Gruden, etc. could do withe money we have available for FA and the draft picks.
Part of me would like to give Mangini the chance to do this, but I can't help but think he'd screw it up and we'd have missed the boat on the "right" guy. The right guy in charge of this ever-so-important upcoming offseason could turn this team around sonner than later.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Quote:
Firing Mangini would be a mistake.
it would be a huge mistake..i'm so sick of us firing ppl after 1-2 seasons....we need continuity!!!!!! look at marvin lewis...he has had 1 good season and all the other ones have been 8-8 or worse until now...he is still around and they don't completely suck.
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Can't agree more with this article. I'm tired of watching us get beat like a bunch of middle-schoolers playing the varsity while he just watches with a disgusted look on his face. Mangini has no one to blame for this mess but himself. The roster has no talent, but the blame can be layed solely on the new regime. They traded away our two biggest playmakers and saved about half a dozen former Jets from playing in the UFL this year. They wasted a second round pick on a middle linebacker whose only seen the field in college as a lineman. They drafted a WR who couldn't even get activated for a game until we traded away our best receiver. Even Mack, the best player of the draft (who I think is a pretty good blocker) can't go more than a few weeks without some terrible snaps. At this point, I'd feel like we'd be sticking with him ONLY for the sake of continuity, which is just as bad, if not worse, than reacting in a knee-jerk fashion. Do any of you honestly think he will lead us to a division title, ever? Mangini did the one thing that I though was impossible after watching last season; he made us worse. 
Much respect to ya, even if you wish me the opposite...
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Whatever the Br_wns decide to do, it will most definitely be the wrong decision.
On the other hand, Paul Brown himself couldn't get 3 wins out of this team. They are that bad and the problem is that 50% of the starting 22 are vets.
you had a good run Hank.
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It's all just... blah.  I thought 2008 was bad, this is horrendous. What's worse than the 1-6 record and the embarrassing blowouts is that there's little to look forward to. We don't have a QB, our defense is atrocious, LBers blow, young guys Veikune and Maiava look out of their league (when you see Veikune at all, which so far has been next-to-never). I don't expect a 2nd rd. pick to blossom instantly, but geez how about he plays once in awhile? Two first downs in a row for our offense is like a minor miracle. DA threw a short dumpoff to MassQ today that was at his knees. There was YAC potential there but it was just a horrible throw. A microcosm of all things Derek. As bad as our offense is, our defense IMO is worse. Or at least it feels that way because they keep getting stepped on and stepped over. I have never felt so hopeless about the Browns. And there's nine games to go.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Quote:
Quote:
Firing Mangini would be a mistake.
it would be a huge mistake..i'm so sick of us firing ppl after 1-2 seasons....we need continuity!!!!!! look at marvin lewis...he has had 1 good season and all the other ones have been 8-8 or worse until now...he is still around and they don't completely suck.
Marvin Lewis has only had two seasons worse than 8-8 (7-9 and 4-11-1 in 2007 and 2008) He took over that team and went 8-8, 8-8, 11-5 and got to the playoffs.
What good is continuity if we have the wrong guy? Yes, we need continuity, but continuity with the right guy.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,064 |
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
Quote:
It is again disappointing to see this happen to the Browns again.
While I generally agree with the rationale for dumping Winslow and Edwards, the problem is that we did not backfill with any players who can contribute to this team now.
The QB situation is a mess. The Browns won't play Quinn until after the bye to save 10M in an uncapped salary situation.
Don't look for a turn around next year, I don't care if the Browns have 20 choices, it cannot be melded into a competitive team.
I have not been this frustrated since the day Botch bailed on the team.
The Browns have no chance in the FA market. With Mangini's reputation no one in their right mind would come to Cleveland.
Bring in someone the fans can believe in (Gruden, Shanahan or Cowher, hell even Marty). I don't believe in this moron.
None of the guys you mentioned would coach the Browns. Marty is 66 and has been out of football the last few years. He's already said he's done coaching. Cowher already turned us down once. He can make 7 figures talking about games on Fox while he waits for a better opening anyway. Gruden, same thing. He can work MNF for 7 figures a year and still be on the A-list of coaching hires well into the next decade. Shanahan is being paid to not coach... why would he want to work for the Browns for free? He could take the job in Washington and have much better talent to work with, and I doubt we'd be able to outbid Snyder anyway.
An established coach is not going to want to come here. It was true this past off-season, and it would be even more true if we canned our coach after one season. Of course, offering $10M a year might change that if that's the road you want to go down, in addition to paying Romeo, Phil, Eric, and George all not to work.
It's just not going to happen.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
FYI
Grab CHI -13.5 NOW....perfect spot for us to get stomped again after them getting destroyed in Cincy today....a must win for them and we have basically given up today, not willing to tackle, no heart....we're as dead as it gets.....easy money here folks, take it and never look back
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Another fine piece from the disgruntled jackass....(McManamon, not Rish )
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,075
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,075 |
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If you want a shot at one of these guys start the courtship NOW!!!!
There's only one problem with that, Mourg...
In order to start a courtship, you have to be at least acceptable enough to your suitor for a first date. We're the ugliest girl at the dance. What self-respecting quality coach is going to want to come here? Beyond a paycheck, what do we have to offer them?
Cowher? He's too happy sitting in a studio slamming Cleveland. How much money would it take for him to swallow his pride? How much would it take to intice him out of retirement/a cushy studio gig... only to take on a team with no depth, no stars, no cohesion, no promising core of players and no competitive prospects?
For that matter, why would ANY of these HC prospects choose us over ANY of the aforementioned teams?
Though it pains me to say it, I truly believe that we're looking at 3 years of Mangini, for no other reason than this: it will take that long for a new generation of DC's and OC's to pop up on the radar, because that's where your next Cleveland HC will come from. Just Like Romeo. And Butch. And Palmer.
Because no reputable HC with a history in the NFL will come here for any amount of money. Not if his NFL legacy is a concern, that is.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,465
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,465 |
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j/c Isn't it ironic that a lot of the same people calling for Mangini's head are the same one's that said we didn't give Quinn a fair chance?
Its not ironic, its more like logic.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,368
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,368 |
Quote:
Because no reputable HC with a history in the NFL will come here for any amount of money. Not if his NFL legacy is a concern, that is.
It's a harsh reality, but you're right.
Last edited by Psydeffect; 10/26/09 02:27 AM.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pat Mac - Time for Browns to Admit
Mistake with Mangini
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