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j/c Isn't it ironic that a lot of the same people calling for Mangini's head are the same one's that said we didn't give Quinn a fair chance?
A bit different. Quinn has a had a handful of starts, Mangini had a few years in New York and now here if you're comparing.
Mangini has done NOTHING to show me he knows what he's doing. If it is a matter of giving him 'x' number of years I have nothing, nothing to hang my hat on to look forward to.
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but firing him would only lead to another roster purge...
But isnt that what we need to do anyway, regardless if he stays or goes, I pray half of these sissys arnt on the roster next season. what the diffrence if mangini purges the roster or another coach does it, I'd rather we do it now than wait 2-3 years of this crap and start over, I'd rather start over now, If he Mangini was a mistake ownership needs TO GROW SOME BALLS and man up and let him go, lets now wait,
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I have never liked Mangini but i wanted to give him a chance. This team gets worse everytime out. Go to Ryan let him finish the season and in the meantime begin a true search for thee guy.
I wouldnt mind seeing a team president that is the tie breaker on decision making. president hires GM and they must agree on the HC. all have some say on who to draft and who to trade for.
My thoughts..I wasn't excited/enthused about the hire..I think you and I discussed who might be the better options..Pioli/McDaniels..something like that... I think whats my beef is that Pioli was straight with Lerner and said he was going to tear the team down and rebuild it..Mangini said he could keep what was here and add to it..yet what he do?
Basically tore it down and is rebuilding it..I cannot say whether KoMan cannot build this up to be a contender..But I am skeptcal..very skeptical..I do know one thing..I can continue to out draft every GM we've had..maybe I need to take over 
Seriously..Mangini is going to be given that rope that Palmer/Botch/Rac have gotten..3 years..But if I were Lerner..I'd be in KoMan's ear and say.." You better FIELD A COMPETITIVE TEAM next year or I'm starting over.."
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 10/26/09 08:43 AM.
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J/C,
The problem with Mangini and the Browns for the last several years has first been with TALENT. We have had a GM( Savage) and a fake GM(Kokonis/Mangini) that cannot evaluate talent. People thought that Crennel was running camp "cupcake" but I would say that he had to because if you look at his first couple of years, there was NOTHING behind the starters. No real NFL talent to back them up.
Now Mangini comes in, and he is going to impose discipline..etc. Thats all nice but his MAJOR mistake was gutting the roster but not bringing in better talent. SO yes, he brought his people in, but they are not better than the talent that was here. He moves Winslow and Edwards but did nothing to secure talent to replace them with. The other than A.Mack, the rest of the draft is looking very suspect.
Now this year, we could actually might not win another game.
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j/c
I really don't know what to think right now. The browns are a mess. The schedule has been brutal. Nobody would have predicted that DA would be this bad, even the most avid haters would give him a 50% completion rate- if only he could be that guy again....
The realist in me says that what do you expect with the widereceivers- they take a year to develop. Got rid of BE, now there is no threat at WR. I had hoped Lewis had another year in him, not so. The line, and the QB sure doesn't help the run game. Its a spiraling mess. We knew the defense had flaws, but when the O goes three and out, that D is just going to get warn down and the spiral downward continues.
So the knee jerk reaction is to say this isn't working and fire Kokinis and Mangini and start over. Who are you going to bring in- noone will make a difference mid season. I doubt the big name guys would want to come here, agree with the previous posters on that one. Thinking outside the box, what do the titans do-- Fisher would be very tempting.
I guess in the end, i ride this process out with Mangini. Part of the process was tearing down the roster and acquiring picks, well- lets see how that works out. One other thing to consider is the labor dispute- what happens that following year- as an owner, you probably don't want to be paying out Mangini's contract and having another new coach doing nothing because of a work stoppage. just a thought.
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I disagree that no quality coaches would want to come here. I've heard it said that no one would coach for Daniel Snyder, yet Marty coached for him. Joe Gibbs coached for him. Coaches have egos, and a coach who wouldn't come here is someone we don't want anyway. A coach worth having as a coach would believe HE could be the one to do the job here and then would come in and do it.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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j/c
I certainly think that people who have a gripe with Mangini and the FO have legitimate concerns. I can't say that I've been overly impressed with him.
But I'm just of the mindset that he doesn't need to be fired.
I look at the talent he inherited when he came here and the moves he's made.
Got rid of Andra "overpursuit" Davis, who I liked, but who I'm glad we got rid of.
Got rid of Kellen "I never know where to line up and am good for at least one or two penalties a game" Winslow. The guy had a ton of talent, but I'm glad he's gone.
Got rid of Braylon "Braylon" Edwards. 'Nuff said.
Got rid of Kevin Shaffer. I sure as heck don't remember him having too many pro bowl years here.
Let Sean Jones go. Doesn't seem that Elam is all that much of an upgrade, but Jones wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire here, either.
He drafts a couple rookies, who need some time. He brings in some stop gap players who I sincerely doubt were brought in here to be "the answer" (Bowens, Barton, Mosley, etc.).
He inherits a fine left side of the line, a poor right side of the line, some huge question marks at QB, some question marks at RB, some question marks in the LB corps, and some question marks at DB.
But we all expected the team to make a playoff push. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one to say we should "lower" expectations. You should expect to win every single game you play.
But we also need to be realistic. We play in an EXTREMELY tough division.
Pittsburgh 5-2
Cinci 5-2
Baltimore 3-3 (although we know they're a very tough team).
That's 6 games a year right there against very good teams.
Look who else we've played this year.
Minnesota 6-1
Denver 6-0
Buffalo 3-4
Green Bay 4-2
Is that an excuse for playing so poorly at times? Hell no. Is that an excuse for the coaching blunders that Mangini has made? Hell no. But should it perhaps enter into the conversation? Hell yes.
We don't have the talent. Having Cowher in here wouldn't magically make DA throw better passes, or Jamal Lewis not tippy-toe his way to the line at times, or Kamerion Wimbley suddenly have another pass rush move.
And would we all have been totally fine if we had Pioli/McDaniels in here just because they said "we're going to tear down and rebuild"? Would we all have sat back and said "oh, we're going to suck this year, but it's ok"? C'mon, that's ridiculous.
Should Mangini be fired? Maybe, maybe not. My opinion is he should not. He didn't inherit much, and the guys he brought in aren't world beaters. There weren't a lot of free agents out there who I really thought would make this team a lot better. I'm glad he didn't go crazy in FA.
I didn't have a problem with the draft. Yeah, I think he could have picked some different guys, but it seems Mack is steadily improving and MoMass is contributing. James Davis may have contributed (may have), and Maiava hasn't been too bad.
As of right now, I think we have 41 draft picks next year. If we use those correctly, we can quickly infuse some talent into this team.
I just think it would be a mistake to fire Mangini now. I'm not giving him a free pass, but I am giving him some more time.
JMHO
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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BrownsFan, Very thoughtful post. Enjoyed reading it. One of concerns with Mangini/Kokonis is that if you subtract talent, you better do something to add talent at that position. Look at the names you listed as subtractions(AD, K.Winslow, BE, Shaffer, S.Jones). Now of all those, there is only 1 you can saw that we got atleast equal talent - S.Jones = Elam. The rest of those postions are on the offensive that were not upgraded at all. As a matter of fact, they are big subtractions. Look at Winslow and Shaffer. Now wether you want to get rid of them or not, we got nothing to replace them with. The Offensive right side was a mess last year and needed to be addressed anyway, what was done? They got rid of Winslow early, Manigni/Kokonis brought in Royal who drops everything. They got rid of BE, ok fine, but now you have a bunch of rookies and third WRs that are running around and not getting open. As far as his stop gap Jet players, look how many times they get handled on D. As a matter of fact if you have the game taped, look at the the goal line stand where the GB running back got in on third down - u will see Mosley getting driven back like a new Caddy by the GB tight end!!.. I did not expect a playoff birth but I thought a 5-11 season and being competative to a point was realistic. Can you see us winning 4 more games?? Also, this love affair with first time O-coordinators as got to stop. Daboll does things that just make you scratch your head. 
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Well I gotta tell ya...
I have no patience with this team. If you trade Kellen Winslow you damn well better have someone to help take his place. Robert Royal doesn't do that.
If you trade Braylon, you better have people to take his place.
Guess what? Browns fan doesn't have the patience anymore. I'm almost at the end of my rope. I've never seen a truly good Browns team my whole life and sometimes I wonder why the hell I sit here and take it, but I won't leave.
As much as I've been aboard the Mangini train, I was in denial because I wanted to believe in the program. Truth is, ManKok has done everything possible to suck the enthusiasm out of Browns fan this offseason. Literally everything.
Uggh...I want an offensive-oriented coach in here. I'm tired of defensive guys. Remember, I wanted McDaniels back in the offseason.
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I still scratch my head over the Daboll hiring. It seems sometimes he's trying so hard to outthink the other side, and that just gets us in trouble. We have a QB who is 8' tall and we don't run a QB sneak from the 1/2 foot line? Does he have that little faith in our OL (although I can't necessarily say I blame him, lol).
As for the other moves, I guess I want to see how they're treated in the offseason. With as many draft picks as we have, we may be able to get some quality starters and/or quality depth (since many of our draft picks are later in the draft). Add in a good FA period and we could be back being competitive rather quickly.
I guess I just look at this team as "it's easy to destroy and hard to build."
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Quote:
I just think it would be a mistake to fire Mangini now. I'm not giving him a free pass, but I am giving him some more time.
I would NOT fire him NOW....after the season is a MUST though. We just can't go through another FA and draft with this guy...he overavalues little things and completely forgets the most important things on his hires (see no further than Royal signing, StClair and whole draft)....
I am no BQ homer btw, never been..in fact I prefer DA, as bad as he's playing BQ looked worse and that's saying something
What good is it to give Mangini another year or 2? He "managed" to coach/demotivate this team into a much WORSE team we've EVER seen under RAC or Butcher
His "schemes" are a complete JOKE..he has absolutely NO CLUE about Offense....game planning, game feel/calling plays, it's horrible and as oring as himself
YOu know, they always say a team takes the identity of his HC...and it's showing...we look like emotionless Robots ot there with a LOSER body language...angsty to put some onions on the table (no I'm still not over 4 punts from the Cincy 40), playing NOT TO LOSE, conservative game planning and calling, no creativity
I said it after 2 games: that'S what I'd expect Dick Cheney and gang to look like calling plays: conservative, boring and predictable and afterwards still thinking to have done it the right way and believing you're the elite....Mangini and gang are the NFL version of those lunatics
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Well I gotta tell ya...
I have no patience with this team. If you trade Kellen Winslow you damn well better have someone to help take his place. Robert Royal doesn't do that.
If you trade Braylon, you better have people to take his place.
Guess what? Browns fan doesn't have the patience anymore. I'm almost at the end of my rope. I've never seen a truly good Browns team my whole life and sometimes I wonder why the hell I sit here and take it, but I won't leave.
As much as I've been aboard the Mangini train, I was in denial because I wanted to believe in the program. Truth is, ManKok has done everything possible to suck the enthusiasm out of Browns fan this offseason. Literally everything.
Uggh...I want an offensive-oriented coach in here. I'm tired of defensive guys. Remember, I wanted McDaniels back in the offseason.
I agree,...Hindsight being 20/20, it appears this would have been a better choice. Believing that defense is as much an NFL requirement as any is OK in theory, but an offense moves the ball, scores points and controls tempo. This, in turn, assists the defense in being better. The converse is, defense won't make your offense better, other than to get them the ball. If the offense then can't do anything with it, what is the point.
That's why I believe we need to focus on a dominating--or at least a competitive--offense, initially.
Yes defense wins championships because it limits opponents scoring,...in the meantime, who does the scoring ?
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We don't have the talent. Having Cowher in here wouldn't magically make DA throw better passes, or Jamal Lewis not tippy-toe his way to the line at times, or Kamerion Wimbley suddenly have another pass rush move.
This made me think of a couple of things. First, it's about getting the most out of what you do have. Do you think he's doing that?
Second, what we do have are guys that Mangini has brought in. When you practice against crap, you are going to look like crap on Sunday. Our practices most likely provide a false sense of competency because both sides of the ball are so incompetent. Those are the players that he brought in.
I'm not sure how I feel about letting him go after one season ... but I do know this ... this offseason is a who's who of accomplished coaching candidates a mile long ... do we pass that up?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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But we all expected the team to make a playoff push. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one to say we should "lower" expectations. You should expect to win every single game you play.
No, not all..I for one did not..I predicted 5- 6 wins..that was all..I saw there was not enough talent at the right positions to be that competitive..and I expected both KW2/Edwards to be traded and they were..I certainly wasn't enthused with the draft..which IMO could have been upgraded..anyone care to debate just ask, I'll show you how..
Even if you go with Mang..the biggest blunder was Daboll..another OC who has no experience calling plays..there's your glaring blunder.
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But we all expected the team to make a playoff push. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one to say we should "lower" expectations. You should expect to win every single game you play.
No, not all..I for one did not..I predicted 5- 6 wins..that was all..I saw there was not enough talent at the right positions to be that competitive..and I expected both KW2/Edwards to be traded and they were..I certainly wasn't enthused with the draft..which IMO could have been upgraded..anyone care to debate just ask, I'll show you how..
Even if you go with Mang..the biggest blunder was Daboll..another OC who has no experience calling plays..there's your glaring blunder.
This is why I want an offensive minded head coach in here.
I'm sick of defensive minded coaches.
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I agree that Mangini is leaving a bit (a bit?) to be desired. There is no doubt that he could do things better (or much better).
I'm just in the camp that I don't think getting rid of him this season (or even this coming offseason) is the right thing to do. Now, that could all change depending on how the rest of this season goes.
We have some teams on our schedule in the 2nd half of the season (and also the Bears) who are very beatable. If we finish this season 1-15, I just may be calling for Mangini's head.
But if we can beat the teams we're "supposed" to (Lions, Chiefs, Raiders, maybe even Jacksonville), I may be more lenient.
Like I said, though, I'm not giving Mangini a free pass.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I know I'm not giving him a free pass..for me it started with the draft..this crap about first time FO starting up and not drafting the best talent is a thin excuse..I told Diam he shouldn't get a pass on the draft..anytime you start up, you look at a roster devoid of talent and you get the best players you can and get them on the field, especially if you know you're going to be rebuilding which is what we see happened..
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All Pro
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If we fire him after one year, believe me nobody with any proven record will come here.
Why would they? Ask that to yourself and think about it.
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
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I think whats my beef is that Pioli was straight with Lerner and said he was going to tear the team down and rebuild it..Mangini said he could keep what was here and add to it..
I didn't know that.. where did that info come from.. Maybe I read it and just don't remember it, but that is all news to me...
McDaniels is doing pretty well with the Broncos.. course it could be said he inherited a better base of players from which to build...
Piolis chiefs are a mess but then, it could be said that he had nothing to build upon..
I have no idea if those two would have been any better than Koks and Gini.... you could build a case for McDaniels this far into the season, but not so much for Pioli....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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You'd have to go search through the archived threads and see if the article was posted..it was one of the rifts that occured when there was a huge delay in naming a GM..and Pioli was having second thoughts about accepting the job..he said the Browns were a mess..plus he did not want to work with Gini..
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This is Mangini's team. It's his approach, coaching staff and roster - with 23 new players on opening day (and 10 former New York Jets now on the team).
Exactly.....I'm so tired of people running around trying to pretend that what EM has right now was just left in his lap by RAC and Phil....
He has overturned this roster bigtime, he's had one draft that saw him BLOW THREE SECOND ROUND PICKS.
None of his seconds are going to what a top 40 player should be. MoMass might become a solid #2 if he can catch, basically the same problem BE had only without the talent. Robo and Veikune will be cut by the next regime, neither will be in thisl eague long. Alex Mack might be good, he better be very good after the players we passed by trading down. We coulda had a good 34 LB or a real potential #1 WR in the first round.....talking about what we coulda done in round two is too frustrating to think about.
The sad truth is EM has lost the normal right to more than one season by his actions. His FA period and Draft were absolutley horrible, his decision to hire current worst OC in the game in Brian Daboll was also belly slapping funny, and gets funnier every week to watch.
His handling of the QB has been comical, double standards, indecision, hurting both QB's in camp and preseason.
He's traded away our only 2 offensive weapons, and replaced them with Robert Royal and Brian Robiskie...two players that aren't even close to NFL starting talent.
Its been one article and story after another of some greivance, scandle, or fine handed down to EM from his time in NY or something he's done now. Its obvious his team no longer cares, nor give a crap what happens. You can bet your last dollar that we havent seen anything yet....
Anybody laugh out loud when a TE we brought off the street yesterday (Micheal Gaines) was by far the most talented offensive weapon on this roster?
The sadness of this franchise is a just overwhelming...and there are some that wanna give EM another FA period and draft to waste?
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j/c Isn't it ironic that a lot of the same people calling for Mangini's head are the same one's that said we didn't give Quinn a fair chance? 
Yep,..including the writer of this article. Mangini will be here for at least 2 more seasons,..firing him now would make us more of a laughing stock than we already are.
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j/c Isn't it ironic that a lot of the same people calling for Mangini's head are the same one's that said we didn't give Quinn a fair chance?
Different situations. Quinn was given 2 and 1/2 games against some of the toughest defenses in the league. I don't care who he is, that's not enough time to judge ANYONE.
We've seen a half season of Mangini's results. Mangini has taken a mediocre at best team and turned us into a laughingstock. I have never seen any other coach bring in so many of his guys so quickly at the expense of current roster talent, and yet they've actually made us WORSE. When you bring in your players, decimate the roster and cause regression for many of the remaining guys, you don't deserve to keep your job. I don't WANT continuity with a guy who starts off like this. Players don't have passion, everyone's mocking us and the soul has been sucked from this team. There is simply no excuse.
He was a terrible, rushed and poorly planned hire from the beginning and he's done nothing to change that. His head needs to be first on the chopping block before we can tolerate watching this miserable excuse for a team again.
We're... we're good?
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Yep,..including the writer of this article. Mangini will be here for at least 2 more seasons,..firing him now would make us more of a laughing stock than we already are.
Yes... because keeping Mangini around has done wonders for establishing us as an NFL power again. 
We're... we're good?
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J/C
I see it like this:
Mangini blew the second round of the draft...he blew it...I liked the Robiskie pick, but the other picks were awful..1 WR..sure, 2 no way....He passed of Rey as well, he is doing quite well in Cinci
I am not going to call for Mangini's head yet, but I won't be heartbroken if the guy is canned..
I said I would have a neutral position, and I will...if he is fired, oh well, if not, he gets more time.
if we can't get Cowher, Marty, or Holmgren...then I think we are stuck with Mangini
I personally have wanted Steve Mariucci for years...The Mooch is the "perfect" coach for this team...offensive minded, WCO, great with young QB..him and Holmgren are very similar
If anyone can salvage something out of Quinn, it would be Mooch or Holmgren.
we may be stuck with Mangini...I dunno...
unless we hire Marty or Parcells as GM/President...those 2 would most likely clean house...
to be honest, this team is a joke...we need at least 43 new players to even sniff 8-8...this team is just awful...there is no easy fix
I was mad about the 1st rd trade last year for this reason:
the players we got from the jets "were not" players that are going to be in the long term plans for our team...Elam is a back up, the rest of them are old over the hill players, ratlif is a clipboard holder
We got NOTHING of value from the Jets looking into the future...nothing...those players are bums...Elam was a back up for a reason, he was not a starter for Mangini when he was there, but he has to be a starter here...ok....
Mangini has made a lot of mistakes...im still on the fence with him,. if we win less then 3 games this year, i won't be mad if he is gone, if we keep him, i expect improvement next year, or I will full-blown turn on him quickly...i'll buy is cab fare out of here...
i think its 10 years before we hit 8-8..just my opinion...we need 43 serviceable players...we would have to hit 100% on every draft pick for the enxt 4 years AND give those players 4 years to develop...not likely...
this is probably the worst roster in the hitory of football..Ohio State would beat us, Heck Wisconsin would give this team a serious run for its money...thats just sad...
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If we fire him after one year, believe me nobody with any proven record will come here.
Why would they? Ask that to yourself and think about it.
It's not as though you're talking about Lerner constantly giving coaches a short leash here, it's that we have a failed experiment that most around the league will realize needed to be resolved. Simply put, any experienced coach should understand that all they need to do to not get canned is play somewhere above abysmal and any GOOD coach should have the confidence that he'll come in and do that right away.
We're... we're good?
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All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 974 |
Quote:
....He passed of Rey as well, he is doing quite well in Cinci
He has to be the most overrated player around here since ben gay.
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,767
Hall of Famer
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Joined: Apr 2007
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You can debate if he should go or not... I'm wondering if I trust these guys with the 11 picks we have so far in 2010. If they fail we don't recover for years. 
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259 |
offense wins games, defense wins championships. To get yourself in position to win it all you need a capable offense that can either control time of possession or just flat out make plays. Controlling time of possession keeps your defense rested since reacting takes more energy than executing, and making big plays fires up the entire team.
Our team right now I fully believe is a few cogs away from being a good defense but until our offense can give them more reasons than just a paycheck to play the game we will keep faltering there.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,517
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,517 |
J/C
7 weeks.
That's all you guys are gonna give him?
Quite frankly,you're sounding like abunch of little school girls.
I'd be willing to bet that dam near 100% of you hailed him as our saviour when he was hired.(I'm excluding you Django)
You were wrong then,and you're wrong now.
This is the path that that great builder of empires,that football exec.extroidinaire has chosen.He must see it thru,and rightly or wrongly we're along for the ride.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044
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maybe I will say this, As of right now TODAY..im "neutral" on Mangini I will say this however, IF this team finishes 1-15, 2-14, or even 3-13..I will want Mangini GONE 1.this team can't tackle 2.they play horrendously soft 3.they don't even look like they want to be out there IF the above continues, and we win 1 game from here on out, or reach the records stated above..I will want Mangini gone This team will not get one red cent from me until they put a decent product on the field...no money here...not happening. This whole mess is Junior's fault because the man is incompetent....he is just not capable of hiring the right folks for the job. ____________________________________________________________________ NOTE the text below is a joke!..please laugh, its parodyMake me President of this Franchise, I'll fix this mess for 60,000 a year and a medical package...thats a bargain I'll hire a "NFL Quality" GM...myself and the GM decide on the Coach AFTER that...i step back and allow the GM and Coach together to have total contol over the roster and football side My job is to tell Randy Lerner in a "unbiased" way how well these guys are doing their jobs....also, I "evaluate" them on a yearly basis as horribly as this team has played, these guys can't tackle, catch, block or even score a TD...under these circumstances, myself as President would pull Mangini aside and say: "look Pal, I dunno what is going on here, but whatever it is you better fix it, and now because im telling you, if i EVER see such a disgraceful performance of poor tackling, no one blocking garbage football...your out of here..I will not put up with this garbage...how much am I paying you? I would then walk down to St.Claires Locker and ask him: Q: What is your job Mr. St.Claire? A: to do my best to block Q Thats right, how come your not doing that? A: I dunno sir, i try my best. Try doesn't cut it..then in my best impression of Donald Trump: 'I'd look him straight in that mug of his and say: "St. Claire your FIRED" firing St. Claire would best the best move this franchise has made all year....sad really I'd then appoint Kosar as my right hand guy, and make sure I keep my liquor cabinet locked up during the week except Sundays during the game 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656 |
Quote:
It's not as though you're talking about Lerner constantly giving coaches a short leash here, it's that we have a failed experiment that most around the league will realize needed to be resolved. Simply put, any experienced coach should understand that all they need to do to not get canned is play somewhere above abysmal and any GOOD coach should have the confidence that he'll come in and do that right away.
I agree. To take it a step further, a good coach would salivate at the opportunity to come in here and build a team with this much room under the cap and all of those draft choices. With the right person doing the picking, this team could turn around as early as next year. My fear is that Mangini is here and proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's definitely NOT the guy to make those picks.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950 |
What bothers me is this..... Over the last 10 years we've had new coachs and no matter who the coach is we still cant tackle, new players..cant tackle, new cordinators...cant tackle. New coaches alone with 10-15 diffrent QB's none can lead a offence, let alone lead a team. 45 RT none can block 80 DB none can cover 10 years of diffent people drafting for us and all have had trouble GETTING IT RIGHT ? This leads me to a conclusion it dosent matter who we have at coach or players, to me we've become comfortable with excuses, we've excepted it's ok to lose becuase were retooling, rebuilding, re purging the roster, players coaches owners are comfortable knowing they dont have to sacrifie like other teams to collect thier pay checks, it's ok to lose, it's accptable becuase nobody in the FO will hold them RESPONCIBLE, BECUASE WERE REBUILDING ....WE HAVE 3-4 YEARS.....YOU CANT HOLD ME RESPONCIBLE FOR THE LAST COACHS TALENT, I NEED 3-4 YEARS TO GET MY GUYS IN...OHH YA AND YOU ARE STILL GONNA PAY ME LOTS OF MONEY ...RIGHT, JUST DONT HOLD ME RESPONCILBE. WE WILL DO IT RIGHT & BUILD THRU THE DRAFT  WONDER IF JOSH MCDANIELS IN DENVER WAS BEING HELD RESPONCIBLE... WE NEED SOMEBODY TO STAND UP AND SAY THIER NOT GONNA TAKE LOSING ANYMORE AND YOU & YOU GET OUT, YOU & YOU ARE FIRED, I'M TIRED OF HEARING PEOPLE WHINE ABOUT, BUT WE DONT HAVE THE TALENT THEY DO......THAT AN EXCUSE, & IF THATS THE REASON, THAN YES MORE PEOPLE NEED TO BE FIRED, FROM gm'S TO SCOUTS, TO COACHES TO PLAYERS..... FUNNY THING IS SINCE WE LOST WILLIE MGINNIS, NO PLAYER HAS STOOD UP AND SAID, THAT WAS ME, i TAKE RESPONCIBLITY FOR THAT LOSS, IT WAS ME, OK MAYBE BRADY DONT REALLY REMEMBER, BUT NOBODY FROM THE DEFENCE, SURLY NOBODY FROM THE CORNER POSITION. OK DONE YELLING, 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 167
1st String
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1st String
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 167 |
Maybe the Daboll hiring might have the same logic as when guys say no players are going to want to come here and play for Mangini........
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,104
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,104 |
I can't call for Mangini to be replaced, the man needs time, but there has undoubtedly been mistakes made along the way.
I'll be the first to admit that I wasn't initially excited about the choice of Manigini. It just seemed like as soon as he became available Lerner was sold. Crennel had the reputation of being a player's coach, someone who would discipline when need be, but for the most part would trust his players to do as they should. Mangini appeared to be the complete opposite, wanting discipline first and foremost.
I knew the transition from Crennel to Mangini wouldn't be pretty, but I also didn't expect it to get this ugly.
The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227 |
Quote:
I look at the talent he inherited when he came here and the moves he's made.
Got rid of Andra "overpursuit" Davis, who I liked, but who I'm glad we got rid of.
Got rid of Kellen "I never know where to line up and am good for at least one or two penalties a game" Winslow. The guy had a ton of talent, but I'm glad he's gone.
Got rid of Braylon "Braylon" Edwards. 'Nuff said.
Got rid of Kevin Shaffer. I sure as heck don't remember him having too many pro bowl years here.
Let Sean Jones go. Doesn't seem that Elam is all that much of an upgrade, but Jones wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire here, either.
He drafts a couple rookies, who need some time. He brings in some stop gap players who I sincerely doubt were brought in here to be "the answer" (Bowens, Barton, Mosley, etc.).
We don't have the talent. Having Cowher in here wouldn't magically make DA throw better passes, or Jamal Lewis not tippy-toe his way to the line at times, or Kamerion Wimbley suddenly have another pass rush move.
And would we all have been totally fine if we had Pioli/McDaniels in here just because they said "we're going to tear down and rebuild"? Would we all have sat back and said "oh, we're going to suck this year, but it's ok"? C'mon, that's ridiculous.
Should Mangini be fired? Maybe, maybe not. My opinion is he should not. He didn't inherit much, and the guys he brought in aren't world beaters. There weren't a lot of free agents out there who I really thought would make this team a lot better. I'm glad he didn't go crazy in FA.
I didn't have a problem with the draft. Yeah, I think he could have picked some different guys, but it seems Mack is steadily improving and MoMass is contributing. James Davis may have contributed (may have), and Maiava hasn't been too bad.
As of right now, I think we have 41 draft picks next year. If we use those correctly, we can quickly infuse some talent into this team.
I just think it would be a mistake to fire Mangini now. I'm not giving him a free pass, but I am giving him some more time.
The problem isn't who he got rid of, it's how he replaced them. He got rid of Andra Davis, but brought in the New York Jets' version of him in Eric Barton... another old veteran past his prime. He got rid of Winslow, who had soft hands and was a great receiving threat and replaced him with Royal, whose hands are so bad he can't even catch swine flu. He got rid of Edwards like he wanted to all along, but never brought in a #1 to replace him when the time came. He swapped out Kevin Shaffer (who actually made for an OK right tackle) for St. Clair. Enough said. He dumped Sean Jones for Elam, who hasn't done much of anything. All his stopgap guys aren't even stopgaps... they're reserve talent players forced into major playing time. He turned over half the roster and improved nothing.
You're allowed to replace the current players on the roster with guys who better fit your system, but if you don't have a guy available that can adequately replace him, you WAIT. Mangini complains about how we don't have any reliable receivers. Who got rid of our #1 and #2? Mangini complains about the blocking of our right side. Who built it? Mangini has issues with our tackling. Who overhauled half of our defense and left us with guys like Maiava as backups? He says our running game isn't productive. Who chose to pay Jamal Lewis his bonus and pass on young rushers in the draft? He complains about our QB situation. Who held onto both of these guys, mismanaged them and ruined their value?
You're right, we sure as hell don't have the talent, but one of the reasons that we don't is because Mangini dismantled our roster and did a terrible job of replacing people. Sure, it's a rebuild, but there is no excuse for stripping us down to our foundation and leaving it that way. His draft was mediocre any way you slice it. He turned a Top 5 pick and 2 other day 1 picks into a decent center and some minor contributors. How is that even possible? I can understand taking a bad team and making it worse while you're laying the groundwork for the future. Where is that groundwork exactly? I sure as heck don't see it.
If Mangini never laid a finger to our roster, can you honestly say we'd be this bad? I mean look at us, we're showering excuses on a guy and we're not even halfway through the season. We did this exact same thing for years with Romeo. How about we bring in a guy who doesn't require excuses? How about we bring in a guy who is actually a pleasant surprise?
I'm done with Mangini. We've been given a gift in a way... we've seen exactly what the future holds for us far earlier than we have with regimes past, long before we're really invested. We're going to have a draft loaded with picks. That alone should be able to get us a good coach with the ability to get things done. Or... we could let another failure play out just because we're too scared to admit a mistake early on and we want to suffer through this for years like we have with regimes past before we admit the truth.
I'm not afraid to move on. It sucks, but it has to be done. One way or another, we need to bring a winner in here and it's pretty darn clear thus far that Eric Mangini does not qualify.
We're... we're good?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,845
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,845 |
Spectre,
I agree with everything you wrote as far as what Mangini replaced the talent with. If you look at my thread, he subtracted talent but never added talent and it shows every Sunday. BUT remember, with Crennel, you had a GM in Savage trying to run everything. Now, you have Mangini/kokonis who under all accounts, made every move THEY WANTED TO MAKE!!!. With Crennel and Savage, Crennel might not have wanted someone but Savage would over-rule. Now you have Mangini/Kokonis agreeing on EVERY MOVE and they have been bad ones. FAs, draft, camps..etc. Just bad moves.
Everyone thought Crennel was the problem and then after the smoke cleared, we saw that Savage was trying to control everything. Now Mangini is in charge, and this year, no one on this board can say the Browns are ANY BETTER!!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,649
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,649 |
It's kinda weird. I didn't like Mangini from the start, but I was overjoyed when he traded Edwards. - I liked this move. I also like the level of discipline that Mangini brings. However guys, I don't see this working out.
We are worse now than we were in 1999. - This is Mangini's fault. I'm sorry, but this team has so much more talent on it than the '99 team. Zero Pro-Bowlers in '99.
Personally, I'd like to see an offensive guru take the lead role here. Mike Holmgren would be nice, but I don't know if he has the determination that he had before. Shanahan would be great and I think he still has something to prove. Also, Jon Gruden is a great offensive coach. - Any one of these guys would bring back all the curiosity and excitement from fans that the Browns are gradually losing.
If we go for another defensive coach, there is only one name out there that Browns fans want - and we all know who that is.
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,177
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,177 |
Lets say keep EM another year, and we let him continue to "build"  What FA that has any ability and is sought after is going to come here? If he's worth anything, 12 other teams are going to be offering similar contracts. No player is going to want to come into this mess, and deal with losing and the ignorant nazi. Heck, we might even have the classic number one overall pick refusing to play for us and wanting a trade, especially with the current collective bargaining up in the air. Lerner made another mistake, the same way he made the mistake before. Own it, clean it up, fix it. Fire EM, let Bernie go out and get a football person to run this team, and let them go out and get a coach. Don't let the ignorant nazi destroy another offseason...he was a proven loser in NY, which is why we were to only team stupid enough to even talk to him.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pat Mac - Time for Browns to Admit
Mistake with Mangini
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