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Between players and picks, everyone has their price. Even Herschel Walker did.
Frankly, the price is and should be so high that nobody will bite. But....... you never know.
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For those that say its not about the money...I agree....Lerner will pay....but it very well could be about the cap.
Quinn looks like he is done in Cleveland....and he could be costing you about 7 mill in 2010 if he were to reach his 70%.....
So you keep Quinn on the bench...and he costs about 700,000 you play him this year...and he costs about 7 mill.
HACK
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So you keep Quinn on the bench...and he costs about 700,000 you play him this year...and he costs about 7 mill.
.....no matter how badly he performs. So what if we're sitting him for 10 mil in cap space? I really don't see why people have such a problem with this. 10 mil is a quality FA or two.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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So you keep Quinn on the bench...and he costs about 700,000 you play him this year...and he costs about 7 mill.
.....no matter how badly he performs. So what if we're sitting him for 10 mil in cap space? I really don't see why people have such a problem with this. 10 mil is a quality FA or two.
That in of itself is the problem....sure it makes sense from a 2010 TEAM stand point.....but its a 2009 team that is paying the price...its a 2009 QB that is losing his money.....and if a future FA and their agent has a chance to sign in Cleveland...or somewhere else...he will think twice about any playing incentives that are in the contract...as there is a precedent being shown that this team will bench someone strictly based on his salary cap number.
It might not even be the truth....Mangini might just not like Quinn....but the issue is if it looks like a duck...and quacks like a duck.....most will think its a duck...even if it is just a sacrificial lamb.
HACK
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He wasn't benched for financial reasons. He had a legitimate chance to achieve those incentives and blew it. Personal problems with the coaches or not, it sure didn't look like he was going to be worth a 10 mil hit on the salary cap.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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He wasn't benched for financial reasons. He had a legitimate chance to achieve those incentives and blew it. Personal problems with the coaches or not, it sure didn't look like he was going to be worth a 10 mil hit on the salary cap.
I agree Quinn did not look like Tom Brady....but if not playing well will get you benched.....whats it going to take to get DA sat down...as not playing well seems to have no baring on DA sitting.
HACK
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All pertinent info is on the STO forum under a thread called "the point after". Be certain to read it in it's entirety. They didn't miss a thing that happened on that show.
Just read it. The very last post speaks of everything being badly overstated. However, some of the things said there speak of the things I've hinted at with Quinn since he came out. He's not the golden boy that people think he is.
Now, setting that aside, I was in Ohio a couple of weeks ago because my father was hurried to Cleveland Clinic for what they thought was repair work on his bypasses. While I was there, I got to actually see the show a few nights. I'm not privy to them down here in Texas  What I saw was kinda telling...........
Good old Sam Rutigliano.............Bless his heart, he loves the Browns still, but he's woefully out of touch with today's NFL. He was spouting on and on about how we just gave away all our talent that we should have been building around. Of course he was speaking of Winslow and Edwards. He has no grasp of the salary cap ramifications, nor did he appear to understand that those players weren't going to have a future here.
Sam is a good guy, but he's part of the NFL that lies now in the archives.
Mangini may be a buffoon, but I'm clear-minded enough to know he made moves to build for the future, not the here and now. If Quinn did what was rumored, he deserves to sit.
Dong showed a clear quote that tells everyone why Anderson is still in there, which is because he's willing to go down the field with the ball. That's to try and develop these receivers. If Quinn isn't willing, he sits. It's very simple.
What I do know is that everyone...........you, me, the media, the players............tend to live too much in the moment without understanding the big picture. The fact that talking heads on TV are this upset is a clear indicator that they had false expectations regarding how good this team actually was.
I dunno...........seems I'm kinda rambling. We're a bad team in a bad spot and everyone........EVERYONE..........is over-reacting. The bottom line is that Mangini inherited a bum team build by bums, and they are playing like bums. He turned over the roster as best he could with the ideal of building for the future in mind. It's simply too soon to pass any kind of judgment on how this will turn out. This may be another blown call by Lerner, but it's too soon to state it as fact. We need help everywhere, and because of the moves we've made, we'll be able to go after free agents AND pull plenty of draft picks. That's why Mangini went in this direction, and only when we see how this draft and the next one produces will we know if he's truly an idiot or not.
As for the media.............more of the same. Football is so hard to predict that even those who've been around the game for years don't have a firm grasp of it. That's the beauty of the game.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Sorry, but if the HC is so insecure that he benches a player because they disagree then I have to wonder about every judgement call he makes. Did Daboll get hired because he bought Mangini donuts for a week? And apparently you didn't read all of the posts on that other site because one of the things they say is that Quinn and Daboll argued because Brady wanted to go downfield and was changing the plays to do that but no one was open. So your DA developing the WR's by going downfield argument is out the window. If it ever was in the window. I also enjoyed the part where you say Sam is out of touch but a guy who runs a hotel in Texas is in the "know". Uh huh......  Anyone who reads your posts knows that you have a pretty good working knowledge of football. I'm sure it's better than mine. But those same people, if they read carefully, know you also position yourself on almost every issue so that when all is said and done you can claim you were right. No matter what happens. You really should consider running for office............ 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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You are on a roll today. Your posts have been cracking me up this morning.  Everyone on this team appears to be screwing things up from top to bottom right now. I don't believe very many people are handling themselves all that well. I'm not saying this is not salvageable for the coaching staff in the future, but I'm not in the least bit impressed so far. I think the decision making has been horrid.
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I wasn't a fan of the Mangini hiring. But after his introduction presser I thought perhaps I was wrong.
I don't think that anymore. I hope that what I think is happening in Berea isn't happening. But I'm afraid that when all is said and done Mangini will have all of us wishing Butch and Carmen were back here.
Scary......
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Can someone enlighten me on what's "happening" in Berea? Cryptic thoughts, like reading a Magic 8-Ball.... did BQ sleep with Mangini's wife or something?  Seriously, what'd he do?
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Instead of benching Quinn for "challenging" he and Daboll and I use that in quotes because we are speculating as to how it was handled on BOTH sides, why didnt he just fine the guy?
If you fine a guy for bottle water why not fine a guy for speaking out of line? Instead he punishes said guy and perhaps the whole entire team by sending the wrong message? Speak up and share your thoughts? You sit!
He is like the soup nazi, "No play for you, back of line!"
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Mangini may be a buffoon, but I'm clear-minded enough to know he made moves to build for the future, not the here and now. If Quinn did what was rumored, he deserves to sit.
Why? Because he questioned the offensive playcalling that even fans and announcers can see is terrible? Because he corrected his coach on something he was wrong about? Because he has issues with an offense that is averaging 10 points a game? I'm sorry, but give me a QB like that over a yes-man like DA any day. It's clear Daboll doesn't know what he's doing and I'm glad that at least Brady and Ratliff are willing to say it. If Mangini isn't man enough that he can't take some criticism without strangling players with his iron fist, I want nothing to do with him.
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Dong showed a clear quote that tells everyone why Anderson is still in there, which is because he's willing to go down the field with the ball. That's to try and develop these receivers. If Quinn isn't willing, he sits. It's very simple.
Yes, I'm sure they go up to Brady every week and ask "are you willing to go downfield yet?" and he always declines. Believe it or not, there is such a thing as a second chance and there is NO reason not to give Brady one except that Mangini has some reason that isn't related to play on the field to sit him. Sorry, but you're out of excuses when your "downfield threat" is putting up 40.6 QB ratings and having 8 stacked into the box against him because teams arªn't afraid of him anymore.
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I dunno...........seems I'm kinda rambling. We're a bad team in a bad spot and everyone........EVERYONE..........is over-reacting. The bottom line is that Mangini inherited a bum team build by bums, and they are playing like bums. He turned over the roster as best he could with the ideal of building for the future in mind. It's simply too soon to pass any kind of judgment on how this will turn out. This may be another blown call by Lerner, but it's too soon to state it as fact. We need help everywhere, and because of the moves we've made, we'll be able to go after free agents AND pull plenty of draft picks. That's why Mangini went in this direction, and only when we see how this draft and the next one produces will we know if he's truly an idiot or not.
No, Mangini inherited a team last year that was 4-8 before both quarterbacks were KO'd, with 4 of those losses being decided by 4 points or less. For some reason, the debacle that this team was after we lost both quarterbacks has overshadowed the fact that we were nowhere near as terrible when we were healthy. 2 of those close games were against the Steelers and Colts. Can this team even sniff those teams this year?
What Mangini did, is he took a roster that, while certainly imperfect, was able to perform at a mediocre level, and turned it into the crappiest roster we've seen since the return. He removed talent, eliminated playmakers and brought in a bunch of his players, who have shown little return at most. For someone who turned over half the roster and had a full draft with extra picks, I can honestly say I don't think he improved a single unit this off-season. If anything, he caused regression. The atmosphere on the team is miserable and it's clear we have an egomaniac at head coach. I don't want to give him more time to make things even worse.
You might be all about keeping this bum for years for continuity's sake, but I've seen enough. We're still in a position with this regime where we could make a change and not have that much of an impact to our team. If we give him one more year, we could see even more Mangini bums brought in (Kellen Clemens, QB of the future anyone?) more star players gutted for more picks that Mangini can blow and the total degeneration of this football team into an even bigger laughingstock than he's made us already (as if that's even possible). I'm stopping that before it starts. This regime reeks of disaster and I'm not willing to wait for a couple more years just so I can confirm it with absolute certainty.
We're... we're good?
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.. " He turned over the roster as best he could " I have do disagree with that one my friend
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Just clicking
This is a dumb article. The owner knows when you don't win, you won't keep great players here. He is prepping to lose JT when he comes up..... I mean, why would an owner sit a QB who could win games because of $$$? Win games, get better players, keep good players..... kinda simple. I feel bad for the fans because no one will want to stay here in this organization and have this outcome. Hank is thankful he was in Philly for 6 years and have the experience to play for a great franchise and win games, go to play offs and play in the super bowl. I know he feels bad for the young guys that know nothing else........
Oh how I wish you could say what's really going on. I'm sure you know, I'm sure Hank knows and he tells you about it.... I wish you could just tell us what's going on in that lockerroom so we could put an end to all of this armchair speculation that we read from posters every day about the players, Mangini, Daboll, ownership, the relationships...
It's frustrating as hell to just not know.
yebat' Putin
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I also enjoyed the part where you say Sam is out of touch but a guy who runs a hotel in Texas is in the "know". Uh huh......
If some guy running a hotel in Texas...........along with the rest of the fanbase................. knows that Edwards and Winslow didn't have a future here, then old, out-of-touch Sam should know it as well.
What's wrong...........the wife make you sleep on the couch again? 
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But those same people, if they read carefully, know you also position yourself on almost every issue so that when all is said and done you can claim you were right. No matter what happens.
That's an issue with your own perceptions, not with reality. Don't be mad because I'm not a knee-jerker brandishing torches for a witch-burning 6 games into a regime.
Of course the thread I made after week one regarding my doubts about Quinn kinda blow your silly little belief right out the window.
Then there was my stance that Romeo was a bum after 2 seasons which wasn't very popular. Then there was Couch, which you clearly remember well. I made no bones about Frye being a bum......
But by all means, blather on. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Mangini may be a buffoon, but I'm clear-minded enough to know he made moves to build for the future, not the here and now.
Two or three years from now I wonder which coach we will be saying inherited an awful team...
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The fact that talking heads on TV are this upset is a clear indicator that they had false expectations regarding how good this team actually was.
That's crap Toad. Expecting to field an NFL team that can be competitive occassionally and win 4 or 5 games is not a false expectation.. we are the freakin' Bad News Bears of the NFL.. only without the happy ending.
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We need help everywhere, and because of the moves we've made, we'll be able to go after free agents AND pull plenty of draft picks.
What Free Agents? What self-respecting FA that is worth a crap is going to want to come here and be a part of this train wreck?
yebat' Putin
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What Mangini did, is he took a roster that, while certainly imperfect, was able to perform at a mediocre level, and turned it into the crappiest roster we've seen since the return. He removed talent, eliminated playmakers
When new regimes take over, they rebuild.
You and I both know people like Winslow and Edwards had no future here.
Seriously, Spec, what did you expect? Contract extensions for those two as players we were going to build around?
We both know better than that.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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What Free Agents? What self-respecting FA that is worth a crap is going to want to come here and be a part of this train wreck?
You're not going to fall for that are you?
We've heard that for years, and every year we decide to go after free agents, we get free agents.
Players chase the money, and 9 times out of 10 when a player is offered the most money, they accept, no matter what team it is.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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When new regimes take over, they rebuild.
You and I both know people like Winslow and Edwards had no future here.
Seriously, Spec, what did you expect? Contract extensions for those two as players we were going to build around?
We both know better than that.
I expect that when you get rid of the best hands on our team, you don't bring in a stiff like Royal who had a reputation for stone hands back in Buffalo. I expect that when you dump a big play guy like Edwards, you don't replace him with 2 WRs who aren't NFL ready. I don't have a problem with him getting rid of guys like BE and KWII, I have a problem with him replacing them with bums. I used to hate the patches Savage put on the roster... but man, at least he patched it.
Mangini has stripped our roster down, and then complains about how bad those areas are. He's trying to have his cake and eat it too. This roster is HIS. He turned over half of it. He regressed our QBs, he turned our right OL from mediocre to putrid, our defensive backs have regressed, our wideouts are terrible, there isn't any one unit that's better on this team but there are several that are worse. That's not a rebuild, that's a demolition. I can understand the rebuild concept, but using a Top 5 pick and 2 second rounders to add a decent center, 2 non-factor WR and a benchwarmer LB is not building towards the future.
What happens if he pulls off a miracle and actually manages to build a solid foundation and then only lacks star talent? It's clear he can't deal with any player who has even a slight ego, and most star talents come with one, so what the heck are we going to do? How can you consistently add playmakers when you're only scouting off the All-Academic list? How on earth are you going to attract quality free agents to play on this debacle?
I'm done. I've seen enough. There's a reason the Jets fired the guy even though he almost took them to the playoffs. There is a reason no other team showed interest in Mangini when he was fired. There's a reason he has a terrible reputation in the league. There's a reason agents are already steering their players away from here. There's a reason he was getting bagged on before even coaching a game here. Everyone else knew what Randy Lerner didn't.
Mangini is an egomaniacal nightmare and frankly, it's not worth waiting 2-3 more years to cement the mounds of evidence we've already been given. We drove into a muddy ditch. We can still back out now but if we keep driving forward, we'll eventually get stuck and require another tow. The time to act is now before this problem gets too out of hand.
We're... we're good?
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I don't have a problem with him getting rid of guys like BE and KWII, I have a problem with him replacing them with bums.
Gotta keep the big picture in mind. It's called REBUILDING.
Both players were traded for draft picks. When you're plan is to slash payroll so that the future cap is in great shape, this is what you get.
You're looking at the here and now, not the future. It's hard to do, but it's what you have to do in order to make sense of this.
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I used to hate the patches Savage put on the roster... but man, at least he patched it.
Savage trading high draft picks for Quinn and Corey Williams put us in this mess. Don't be so quick to let Savage off the hook. If he had his way, Russell would be our QB. 
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What happens if he pulls off a miracle and actually manages to build a solid foundation and then only lacks star talent? It's clear he can't deal with any player who has even a slight ego
Shaun Rogers would disagree.
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How on earth are you going to attract quality free agents to play on this debacle?
It's always about money. It's always BEEN about money. You offer the most money and the player will sign.
We've always been a bad team, and we've always landed high-priced free agents if we wanted them.
This doesn't change anything.
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I'm done. I've seen enough.
Clearly.
Familiar with psychology at all, Spec? There's a working concept that shows people who are predisposed to an opinion will find and favor evidence to support that existing ideal while discounting factors that may favor the opposite side of the discussion. While you may be right about Mangini.............he did screw up the QB thing at the start of the year, and I vehemently disagreed about not signing any high-end free agents............I think your mind is closed to the moves he made for the future which helped make a bad team worse. We traded away our two most talented skill position players for draft picks. It's predictable that we'd suck even worse. So Mangini see's we're not going to compete, and he pulls the trigger on moving Edwards. The offense predictably sucks, so before we even get half-way through the season, it's time to fire him?
That's not going to happen. It'd make no sense.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Just read it. The very last post speaks of everything being badly overstated. However, some of the things said there speak of the things I've hinted at with Quinn since he came out. He's not the golden boy that people think he is.
So, you go with one post over the whole entire thread?
I don't doubt there is friction. I replied to Attack somewhere, that besides the money there HAD to be more to Quinn's quick benching then it just being about money and money only. Easier to let go someone that doesn't have a high price tag but what's to say that come THIS offseason he couldn't restructure a bit to make things more palatable?
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He has no grasp of the salary cap ramifications, nor did he appear to understand that those players weren't going to have a future here.
Maybe so, but you replace talent with talent, that's the way good teams operate. You just reload the rifle and start shooting. We replaced Winslow with Royal, Edwards with unproven rookies and cast-offs. If Furrey and Stuckey had any promise I doubt they would have been so easily let go. I would think that Detroit could use a few playmakers and wouldn't let one walk away.
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Mangini may be a buffoon, but I'm clear-minded enough to know he made moves to build for the future, not the here and now. If Quinn did what was rumored, he deserves to sit.
I don't get this line of thinking. You may very well be right, Quinn could have been out of line, there is a time and place for those disagreements, but why not fine Quinn instead of benching him? You made the call that Quinn, by virtue of competition, won the starting job only to sit because of a disagreement. I'm sure that happens to a degree on all teams.
Speaking of competition, what does it say when you have a guy, Bartell, who outplayed Ratflff (Mangini's boy) and is shown the door? What does that tell the rest of the team?
What does it say when you had a roster that was somewhat competitive, is torn in half, plays like crap for what is left, and be told . . . it's a process.
I'm not one for brash actions, but if Mangini was fired tomorrow, I wouldn't care one iota. I see NOTHING in what he's doing that shows any semblance of building a winner.
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What I do know is that everyone...........you, me, the media, the players............tend to live too much in the moment without understanding the big picture. The fact that talking heads on TV are this upset is a clear indicator that they had false expectations regarding how good this team actually was.
Toad, I would bet that the people in the media may know a little more than you and some people around here give them credit for. You may disagree with their conclusions but for people who are constantly around the team or the league you don't think they get told something "off the record?"
If you, or anyone else, can't grasp the fact that reporters don't print EVERYTHING otherwise you lose the trust of the people and the industry you cover than you know nothing about journalism and human beings in general. Everyone can't be on the record every time they talk to a reporter or one of these media types.
I think for all the negativity that a Tony Grossi gets, or [insert name here] receives from fans in general, they are only printing what they know/see. Big pictures are made up of small pixels. If pixels are out, the picture gets fuzzy. We can't see, they can't report on a "big picture" because all the little things that need done to make any big picture realized is weak at best.
It's not a false expectation of being good, it's an expectation that we be competent in trying to do it. Which we are not. We are the laughing stock of the NFL.
I challenge you or anyone else, show me ONE POSITIVE news piece about this team.
When everyone is dancing to the same tune, there may be something to it.
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Except what agent is gonna suggest coming here and signing any contract, they way we are doing Quinn right now.
Oh and what building has went on here? We have less roster turnover than the Broncos, and yet, where the building? I see dismantling, lots of it, and replacing it with reject Jet players.
Are building through the draft? foundational players like MoMass, Robo and Veikune?
Eric Mangini did the best he could?
QB: Quinn
RB: Jamal, McCoy, Harrison
WR: BE, Jabbar Gaffney($2mil), Bryant Johnson($3 mil), Brian Hartline, Cribbs
TE: LJ Smith, Heiden
LT: Thomas
LG: Steiny
C: Birk (yeah I offer him alot more the $4 million per than Bal)
RG: Shaffer
RT: Max Unger/Loadholt (again, depending how I felt draft day)
OLB: Kam
ILB: Rey Mala, DQ
OLB: Clay Mathews or E. Brown (depending on how I feld draft day or my "scouts" opinion)
DE: Koleman/Williams
DT: Rogers
DE: Mosely/Williams
S: Pool
S: Jones
CB: Wright
CB: Bryant McFadden($5 mil)
No massive money FA, but a TOTALLY different roster, I spent around $14 million aginst the cap, or slightly less, depending on how much more I had to outbid other teams.
Eric Mangini hasnt rebuilt a freaking thing. A stupid fan without aid, like me, could have built a better team, and I'm positive there are those smarter than me on this board that could done it even better, without scouts or aids.
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Legend
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We've heard that for years, and every year we decide to go after free agents, we get free agents.
Show me the list of FAs we've gotten.
yebat' Putin
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You didn't say please.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Quote:
We've heard that for years, and every year we decide to go after free agents, we get free agents.
Show me the list of FAs we've gotten.
Ok, joking aside (designed to add a little levity to all this) I'm going to use a disclaimer here because someone would inevitably come along and completely whiff on the context and flow of this conversation:
This is a question about acquiring free agents when we went after free agents. Not about whether or not the free agents were smart signings. ( to the fact I have to say that). Though to be fair, these should be free agents that were receiving interest from other teams, not street guys like Hank Poteet.
Eric Steinbach
Rex Hadnot
Kevin Shaffer
LeCharles Bentley
Joe Jurevicius
Kenard Lang
Dave Wohlabaugh (sp?)
Ross Verba
Orpheus Roye
Robert Griffith
Ryan Tucker
Jamir Miller
Ebenezer Ekuban
Terrelle Smith
There may be more, but those are the ones I can remember who would have garnered interest from other teams.
It's always about money.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Dawg Talker
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Familiar with psychology at all, Spec? There's a working concept that shows people who are predisposed to an opinion will find and favor evidence to support that existing ideal while discounting factors that may favor the opposite side of the discussion. While you may be right about Mangini.............he did screw up the QB thing at the start of the year, and I vehemently disagreed about not signing any high-end free agents............I think your mind is closed to the moves he made for the future which helped make a bad team worse. We traded away our two most talented skill position players for draft picks. It's predictable that we'd suck even worse. So Mangini see's we're not going to compete, and he pulls the trigger on moving Edwards. The offense predictably sucks, so before we even get half-way through the season, it's time to fire him?
That's not going to happen. It'd make no sense.
I hated the hire at the beginning, I won't lie, but I absolutely tried to give Mangini the benefit of the doubt. What I have seen here has been below my lowest expectations. I'm not trying to find evidence of Mangini being a terrible hire, it's being thrust in my face at every turn.
So much of the little talent we had is gone and regardless of whether it should be gone, it was poorly replaced. The offense isn't all that's terrible... the defense (Mangini's specialty) is shot as well and regression is all around. In the NFL, rebuilds are more of a reload... turnarounds happen all the time and they can happen very quickly. To bring a team with Pro Bowl pieces down to its knees is inexcusable. That's just on the personnel side.
On the motivational side, it's clear that Mangini doesn't have what it takes either. This team collapses in legendary fashion, many players don't seem to respect him and the dictatorial approach rarely works in the first place. Controlled discipline through respect, not coercion is the way to go and Mangini will never understand that. He's learned nothing from being fired the first time.
Here's the reason why I want Mangini gone now and not later... the damage is barely done. All he's been able to do thus far is botch one draft, trade away a few of the pieces who probably should've been dealt anyway, bring in some easily replaced filler and regress a few players. If we dump him now for a REAL experienced coach ala Cowher/Gruden/etc. they'll have a treasure chest of picks and our cornerstones (Thomas, Rogers, etc) are still in place. If we give Mangini one more year, and he blows this next draft like he did the first or starts dumping more talent, we could be in 5 year rebuild hell.
I don't mean to sound alarmist, but we've been given a glimpse of the future with this regime far sooner than we've been given a look at any other. Mangini has destroyed both the team and morale in less than half a season. There is little reason to hope that this regime will take us to the promised land. The only hope that I have right now is that Randy will see what a mistake this was and pull the plug before things get even more out of control.
We're... we're good?
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These guys didn't sign with teams with nationally covered, ridiculously bad coaches who had a well established reputation for 1. sucking the fun out of the game like a vacuum and 2. treating any and all players like digits in a grid.
This guy has to be on the top of the "Who Do You Want to Play For The Least" list. There's no question. And it's well deserved. Clowns die in his presence. Unless they want to play QB.
We may have had bad coaches through the years, but never a guy who is REVILED.
As yourself if you were an agent would you want a client playing for this trainwreck? Hell, no you wouldn't. Like him or not (most do not), he is a "my way or the highway" type coach who is not afraid to stubbornly maintain a position even if it could potentially bring down everything around him. Petulance must be punished!
This guy couldn't attract flies if he was slathered in poop.
What a mess.
Last edited by redddog; 10/28/09 01:55 PM.
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Dawg Talker
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Its' not his fault, he inherited a bad team, he's doing the best HE can....
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All Pro
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All Pro
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Its' not his fault, he inherited a bad team, he's doing the best HE can....
I may have inherited a bad team....but he made it worse IMO.
HACK
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Hall of Famer
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Good old Sam Rutigliano.............Bless his heart, he loves the Browns still, but he's woefully out of touch with today's NFL. He was spouting on and on about how we just gave away all our talent that we should have been building around. Of course he was speaking of Winslow and Edwards. He has no grasp of the salary cap ramifications, nor did he appear to understand that those players weren't going to have a future here.
He also said immediately following the BE trade, which he was vehemently against, that a team is full of different personalities and that you have to know or learn to coach them differently. You don't throw away your best talent, you learn how to coach them.
Maybe that sounds a little old school too but it makes a solid point. You can't just toss players left and right because you find them difficult to deal with.
BE was no T.O., Brandon Marshall or some of the others we've known over the years. He was a lightweight as far as troublemakers go. He has his faults and didn't want to be here so because of them and that I am glad he's gone. I don't disagree with the trade as Sam does.
While going to a trade school and had worked my way up from student to assistant instructor I was privy to a conversation between a math teacher and a shop teacher. The math teacher, pointing to me, said, "If they were all like him I'd love my job." The shop teacher told her, "Then you're in the wrong line of work".
I think coach Sam was saying the same thing to Mangini. If you want everyone to be the same and to be easy to deal with then you are in the wrong line of work. You have to coach the difficult players as well as the easy ones.
If the reason he is gone is because the HC didn't know how to coach him then that's an issue. Who is the problem now? I just watched "To Sir With Love" last night. Maybe that's why Sam makes sense to me.
And what about Brady Quinn? Do we have a similar issue there? Do quarterbacks and their head coaches always agree and never mince words? Do any other QB's change the plays in spite of what was called? Hello Bernie Kosar.
How severe a problem can there be when the backup QB is not standing near the HC or OC holding a clipboard and wearing headphones so he can be more in the game, but instead stands at the end of the teams sideline with the number three QB for company? And the HC tells him to be ready, "opportunities come quickly". Could he be better prepared to take over in a game if an opportunity came quickly and he were already part of it? I think so.
Something's rotten and it may or may not be that Quinn is that much of a complete ass.
Mangini worked so hard in the offseason, training camp and the preseason to protect these QB's that he's screwed both of them up.
#gmstrong
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It had to get worse before it can get better....He had to get rid of all of the crud whether they had talent or not...and he has to get his system of doing things in place as a foundation to build from. You can agree with that process or not...But he is tearing the team down to nothing so that he can build it anew.....I mean look at what Jimmy Johnson did to the Cowboys...Man those fans were livid, I know...I was living in the area at the time...And when they saw Troy Aikmen in his first year they were ready to run both Johnson and Jones out on a rail...Now Mangini is trying to do the same...except he doesn't have the luxury of a Herschel Walker Deal as Teams have caught on to that. And he comes from a very TEAM oriented system in Parcells/Belicheck where star players acentuated a solid Team and were not the focus.
(NTU Hack)Get off of this replace talent with talent crap...If you have a cancerous tumor on your leg you cut it off even if it is the prettiest and most amazing tumor you have ever seen. And Royal isn't a replacement...he is a stop-gap...And just because we are all sick to death of stop gaps...it doesn't mean that wasn't what the situation called for. Just because the talent wasn't replaced this second it dosen't mean it isn't coming...
As bad as this team has been...I still think we could beat last years team.....they play more disciplined defense (despite the massive numbers they have given up) and we could run all day on last years defense.....Not that I would want to see that game...Ugh....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Legend
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Legend
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There are a couple of pretty good players on that list, most of them were probably NOT that highly sought after...
However, and this would be speculation, did we have to overpay to get them? What about the FAs that we missed out on? Other, much more high profile players, have gone via FA over the last 10 years, other than maybe Steinbach and Bentley, where are our impact FAs? Joe J is a nice player but really is a #3 or at best #2 WR....
And in all honesty, though we may have been bad when some of those guys were signed, we weren't THIS BAD.
yebat' Putin
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And what about Brady Quinn? Do we have a similar issue there? Do quarterbacks and their head coaches always agree and never mince words? Do any other QB's change the plays in spite of what was called? Hello Bernie Kosar.
Maybe I should give you a mulligan on that one, 'Dub, because we know who cut him, and how that coach has turned out.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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All Pro
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He argued with the coaches before the one that cut him, and we know how that almost turned out.
Go Irish!
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Maybe I should give you a mulligan on that one...
Sorry, that's like saying Mangini writes with a pencil and so did Belichick, and we all know how that turned out.
Besides, I wasn't actually talking about Bernie getting cut. I was alluding to him changing plays when he was given a play that he knew wasn't going to work.(Ironically the last play he changed, his last play as a Cleveland Brown, was a play he drew up in the dirt that went for a TD and, well, that was the straw that broke the camels back.
Bernie did pretty well in his time here. Play changing and all. What he didn't do so well at was agreeing with Belichick even when Belichick was wrong.
And since his time here Belichick has learned a great deal in how to deal with people, players included. I suppose that in a perfect world everyone would do, say and act exactly as I want/need them to. But that doesn't fly so well with the human species.
And it's again, like Sam says, you have to be able to or learn to coach different personalities in different ways. Just shipping them out because they can't be a complete tool is a coward's way.
And what about Ratliff? It sounds like he may be in the doghouse too. And Ryan. So how does DA escape this? He brings Burger King sandwiches to the coaches working late. It would take that because he's sure not playing his way out of it. Maybe he's doing exactly as he is being told. 
#gmstrong
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I was alluding to him changing plays when he was given a play that he knew wasn't going to work.
Kosar had earned that right. Our QB's haven't. Big difference bro.
Unpopular though it may be, I'm all for a coach stepping on the players and those that think they can do it however they want. That was a HUGE problem when Opie and RAC were here, so if it takes one season for the rebels to be squashed and everyone to learn that it's now a house of discipline, so be it.
I'm not going to pass judgment on Mangini for this stuff yet. Before Quinn ever came into the league I was warned about him. Combine that with an existing environment of "do whatever you want" and we see what lies before us.
Maybe Mangini is a boob, maybe he isn't, but I don't have a problem with shutting out the media, shipping out bad apples, and stepping on players and coaches when they are out of line or doing something they aren't supposed to be doing. To me, this is the unfortunate side effect of being forced to clean house.
Getting back to Sam, he's probably a great guy and a great mind, but from what I saw of his comments, he's out of touch with today's NFL. Learn to coach people like Edwards and Winslow? He wouldn't stand a chance. Those days ended in the era of Deon Sanders.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Practice Squad
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I think the problem Browns fans and maybe even the media have is 3 fold:
1.They completely expected Mangie to start Brady Quinn and be a faithfull backer
2.For Mankok to push 100% win now philosophy with regard to his offseason dealings.
3. Phil Savage has alot of friends in the media and NFL wide, which IMO are trying to cover his butt. Savage is even now releasing statements trying to whitewash his time in Cleveland.
How wrong we were. We can't handle it either. Thus the fanbase is losing its mind and IMO creating a complex against Mangini that has become outright irrational, hatefull and flatly embarrasing. The constant bashing, name calling and slamming of Mangini needs to stop and this fanbase needs to take a chill pill, shutup and allow the man to do his business of rebuilding the Cleveland Browns. There will be a time for irrational hatred and we may all enjoy that time, when it comes. But that time isn't now. We need to sit back and watch. Grit and deal with this season and hope for better days in the future.
If this Browns team had gone out and signed FA's like Denver, drafted for positions of need and filled holes rather than basically sign cheap stopgaps and draft for the future, not traded Kellen, released Anderson and made Quinn the absolute starter while keeping the Savage core in place, I would be ENRAGED by this display. I would probably say Mangini needs to be fired(whether he was at fault or not).
But man, it is what it is. When Mangie traded Kellen, I knew the writing was on the wall. Then came the basically inactive FA and a draft that said "next decade" written all over it. I knew this team was going to suck. Then came the lack of backing Quinn.........he wasn't his QB. That became evident really early. Maybe the best indicaters was the bs rumors Mangini was floating to the media about Quinn trades. But the league wouldn't bite for the price, another slam on Quinn.
2-4 wins tops. It was clear as a blue sky. The team was going to lack talent, it would expose Savage as being a complete failure, it would expose Quinn's problems and make Anderson look completely stupid. Mangini is shrewd and cruel. But so is resume of a NFL coach. If you rebuild, you don't stop, you go as far as the market will take you. We aren't going to trade Mr.Rogers, but Edwards had a market by the deadline. We want to trade Quinn but the deal still isn't quite right. We can't wait to get rid of Anderson either, but he won't cost 11 mill more to start. Ratliff is a pure project and they don't want to throw him in to fast. Messy, messy.
But it was for Bill Walsh and the 1979-80 49ers. 2-14 and 6-10. Why wasn't he fired after 1980? God did he suck.
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Granted Quinn's no offensive mind like Kosar was and is. Few, if any, are. But to alienate a player might or might not be the best way to handle that situation. Couldn't there be some other way? Somehow I think there is.
To claim you benched him for bad play and then leave the other guy in when he is playing at least equally as bad, for twice as long, has everyone wondering what's the "thought process" (one of Mangini's favorite catchphrases). And if one is looking for a reason other than something completely stupid then I guess your nugget that DA is playing to give the WR's some experience in downfield pass plays then ok, but I think that is digging for potatoes in the parking lot.
Quinn or no Quinn, right now I don't give a crap. But Mangini's explanation for that is reminiscent of Botch's itsy-bitsy, teeny-weenie, infinitesimal, might-be-a-hair-might-be-a-crack that can't even be seen on an x-ray or an MRI on a non-weight bearing bone to explain why his broken leg wasn't broken.
Getting back to Sam, I'll agree that he's a bit old and out of touch with today's generation to be successful at coaching up the likes of Edwards and Winslow. The age gap's too big and to compile the problem he's been out of the NFL for too long.
The player's egos have been allowed to grow too large due in part by the way the NFL these days is making millionaires out of non-proven players thereby giving them a false sense of their real value and who they are, and due in part to a modern, me first generation.
But the gap's not too big for a young guy like Mangini or a ton of other head coaches out there to be able to relate to these younger guys and coach them.
I agree with you and others that neither BE nor K2 had a future here. It had gone on too long to be reversed now. But I seem to remember that K2 started his last season here as a pretty good soldier until he was asked by someone from the FO to conceal his staph infection and he went off. Someone got to him; then someone messed that up. Actually I think BE started out that year pretty good too. He just got tired of the constant losing and changing regimes and wanted out more than ever.
#gmstrong
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Granted Quinn's no offensive mind like Kosar was and is. Few, if any, are. But to alienate a player might or might not be the best way to handle that situation. Couldn't there be some other way? Somehow I think there is.
There's nothing more than a bunch of supposition going on right now regarding Quinn. Even I'm guilty of it, though I'm seeing more and more evidence that he isn't what everyone around here thought he was. So we really don't know why Quinn and whomever are at odds. All that we DO know is that Anderson probably has no business being out there, but he is because of things that Quinn has done or isn't doing, and no coach in the world is going to leave a player on the bench that doesn't deserve it just because of ego, not with their jobs on the line. Quote:
But the gap's not too big for a young guy like Mangini or a ton of other head coaches out there to be able to relate to these younger guys and coach them.
In a world full of Brandon Marshall's, T.O's, and a myriad of others, coaches can only do so much because they are no longer the ultimate and final authorities. Some players just can't be controlled. Edwards was one of them. Once he tasted the entire world being at his fingertips, he wasn't ever going to accept being just another player on this team. He was the face of the franchise, and wasn't about to accept a demotion. No coach in the league could have brought him back from the abyss.
Keep in mind that even the best coaching minds in this league don't bother to "coach up" players like that any more. Bellyache and Parcels BOTH sent players packing because they weren't worth the time or energy. Remember Antonio Bryant? He had to be kicked out of three teams and the league for a year before he got it.
I know we're digressin' here, but my stance is that Sam just doesn't understand that Winslow and Edwards were gone sooner or later, and not worth the monetary investments to keep them. He's forgotten more about football than I've ever learned, but that DOESN'T mean he understands today's NFL, because by stating what he did regarding Edwards and Winslow, he clearly doesn't.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The real reason Quinn sits while
Anderson stinks it up???
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