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That was the point of my post Toad.. as bad as we are now, we can't possibly be that bad again next year.. so regardless of how bad we are, it will probably resemble some type of improvement.
yebat' Putin
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Go ahead.........Jinx us 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I will be shocked if he's around next year. Whether anyone agrees with it or not, I've been a Browns fan long enough to smell when blood is in the water, and it's in the water now..........sniff.....sniff.....I wouldn't be suprised if it happens Monday of the bye week.
As the old saying goes you can pee off some of the people all the time, and all the people some of the time, but not all the people all of the time. Mangini has alienated his players, coaches, fans, and probably the most important the media that fuels the other 3. He might shock me, but I will be real suprised if he finishes the year.
Last edited by BigWillieStyle; 10/28/09 05:30 PM.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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I would be beyond shocked if he's gone after this year.
You have no way of knowing that he has alienated his fans or coaches. People around here are fans of pointing out that half of last year's Jets are on this team. If they hate him so much, why would they follow him over here? Same with the coaches. That argument is awful.
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Im going off of the media report (again which fuels the other 3). It could be bogus and everyone thinks he's the salt of the earth........we shall see.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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And the media only hates him because he cut off all of their sources. The fans only hate him because the media hates him.
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Quote:
And the media only hates him because he cut off all of their sources. The fans only hate him because the media hates him.
1-6 has nothing to do with it?
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Romeo went 4-12 twice and 6-10 once yet they still loved him.
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It doesn't matter what is logical or even right (those are debatable). I've been a Browns fan for 36 years, and at some point you just get to where you can since that it's turning bad for a guy. Eric might turn it around, but if he doesn't (and somewhat quickly) he won't see next year. He's basically in the situation Bellyache was in when he was here.........difference is we were competitive and winning when BB was here.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Romeo went 4-12 twice and 6-10 once yet they still loved him.
That's news to me.
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Much of the media didn't want the Browns to fire Romeo last year.
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Quote:
Much of the media didn't want the Browns to fire Romeo last year.
I don't know what media you were reading/listening to.
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The same one you apparently weren't. You honestly don't remember everyone in the media putting all the blame on Savage and none on Romeo?
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My opinion is, like it or not, when it's time to step back and evaluate, the decision makers (Lerner) will accept that Mangini was handed a pile of crap with a little talent, but forced to remove that little talent because it wasn't going to be part of the future no matter who was here.
So when you're already in a rebuild mode, then continue to scale it back by trading the likes of Edwards, no reasonable person is going to expect success.
It's tough for fans to accept losing, especially when it's losing badly. Still, this outcome isn't that unexpected, so when it's time to take emotion out of the equation, Mangini is going to be allowed to continue because this was only partially his making.
I know the message is being repeated, but Mangini DOES have his own cross to bare. He has to answer for how he handled the QB's in preseason, and he's going to have to answer for his draft, though that won't happen until next year. Everything else he inherited doesn't fall on his shoulder. People want to say he brought in bums. Sure, but he dumped bums as well. The only way to upgrade form those bums would have involved blowing our cap apart, and we've seen how that fails for so many other teams.
Look, summarized, some of this is Mangini, but some of it isn't. He can't take crap and make it competitive in one season. There weren't long-term pieces here in significant numbers. Two pro-bowl players, one decent left guard, one nearing-the-end running back, one undersized 3-4 ILB, and one solid if unspectacular corner. The only other "true" talents we have are special-teamers  The writing has long been on the wall with Edwards and Winslow. That left us with nothing. Sure, spending huge dollars would have MAYBE got us near being a .500 team, but we wouldn't be in any kind of shape next year, and THAT'S what people need to understand.
Mangini won't get fired this year, not after one season. But it's plausible that he could get booted mid-season next year if his 2009 draft picks falter and his 2010 moves aren't doing anything.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Who loved him? The fans? The media? If I remember correctly, a lot of people around here wanted Romeo gone. You think the fans only hate Mangini because the media hates him? Thanks for telling me WHY I feel the way I feel.  I hate Mangini because the team has a terrible record and has only been in 2 of their 7 games by the time the fourth quarter comes around. I hate Mangini because he traded away our two most talented players for peanuts. I hate Mangini because he failed to upgrade any position, or even find suitable replacements for the positions he purged. I hate him because he brought in a garbage OC with no play calling experience. But no, according to you, we hate him because he's not Mary Kay's and Grossi's best buddy. By the way, a lot of those Jets didn't "follow" Mangini here. Many of them came via trade. Trusnik, Stuckey, Elam, Ratliff, etc. didn't have any choice. They either play here or don't play all. I can't say I much cared for Savage, but so far the Mangini-Kokinis duo makes him look like freakin' Paul Brown. I hope he's gone next year so we don't blow all of our picks on back-up linebackers who have great wedge building skills and sign every free agent reject from the Jets practice squad.
Much respect to ya, even if you wish me the opposite...
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The media has a biased opinion which leads people to think things that aren't true.
Remind me if these guys followed him over here:
Eric Barton
C.J. Mosely
Abram Elam (he signed an offer sheet here)
David Bowens
Hank Poteat
I'm guessing there are other guys who I can't think of off the top of my head.
And then you call Winslow and Braylon our two most talented players. Meet Joe Thomas. Winslow was an ass who wanted a new contract and isn't going to last much longer. We got more than most people thought we could. Braylon is an ass, with an expiring contract who wasn't producing.
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Winslow couldn't block
Edwards couldn't catch
Rogers is a beast.....so Mangini made nice with him.
honestly, I'm more disappionted that we most likely sold low on Braylon (after the fight and lackluster start to the year rather than before the draft) than I am that we traded him.
winslow is doing worse than MoMass so far this year for another team with no offense.....and he doesn't block to boot (yes, he has great hands). and he is doing so as the highest paid TE in the NFL.
#gmstrong
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Winslow 2009: Leads 2009 team in receptions (31), receiving yards (295) and touchdowns (4)… Started each of first seven games… Has led or tied for team lead in receptions in five of first seven contests
Mohamed Massaquoi 2009: 17 Receptions 300 yards TDs:0
I don't know but I think Winslow could really help this team if he's doing that for one of the very few teams that is as putrid as ours. Blocking, schmocking, the guy had hands of glue. I'd take him back in a minute.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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All Pro
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I don't know but I think Winslow could really help this team if he's doing that for one of the very few teams that is as putrid as ours. Blocking, schmocking, the guy had hands of glue. I'd take him back in a minute.
I would too, if it looked like he'd still be a viable offensive threat in two or three years. This year is a tear down. What good would it have been to hang onto Winslow until his knees finally give out?
I'm frustrated beyond belief right now but there's nothing anyone can do about it. We're in yet another rebuild.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Quote:
My opinion is, like it or not, when it's time to step back and evaluate, the decision makers (Lerner) will accept that Mangini was handed a pile of crap with a little talent, but forced to remove that little talent because it wasn't going to be part of the future no matter who was here.
What has bothered me about that is I seem to remember the main reason Lerner didn't want Pioli is because Pioli told him this team needs a complete rebuild. And one of the reasons he liked Mangini is that he agreed with Lerner that we could win with some upgrading of the existing roster.
That is one big reason I didn't think we were rebuilding in the beginning. But then Mangini's actions pointed directly to rebuilding and sure as heck he tore down the roster ala Savage in '05 and subsequently confused the hell out of me.
Did Mangini lie to Learner about that originally? Did Mangini, after being hired, say the next day, "You know, as I look at this closer there's no other way but to rebuild." Were we misled by the media regarding what was said in those meetings?
With some of the crap going down now I'm wondering exactly how Bernie fits in all of this as Lerner's consultant reporting only to Lerner. I don't think for a minute that he's willing to have anything to do with any coaching role. I'm leaning toward Lerner asking, "Watch this for a bit and tell me if I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing."
Hell, I don't know. This season's got me conspiracy theorizin' like I've never done before. That's how confusing this is all adding up to me. 
#gmstrong
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Legend
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That was all heresay with no proof.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Toad, you've never been this bad, really....and I consider you a good poster, even when I disagree....but this is as bad as I've read ya making apologies for EM.....wow 1. the guy inherited a much better prodruct than Savage/RAC...yet he does MUCH worse....read: I didn't expect him to make the POs...but there is no excuse for being the trash can of the NFL with the guys he inherited...NO FREAKING WAY...we went from 22nd to 28th power rank team to 30th to 32nd (being in the teens in 2007 with much of the same roster just HEALTHY) 2. he inherited one of the YOUNGEST teams in the NFL...yet he decides to tore it down COMPLETELY....it's like saying: "eff it, I want my own draftees in"...he refuted to coach the young talent he inherited....best example: ILB position...we had 2 mid-round prospects from Savage in Bell and Williams...what does he do? He drafts his own projects in Maiava and Veikune....anybody tell me with a straight face that Williams would NOT have helped more this year than Veikune...it's all pissing match with EM...he has a long documented history of these issues.....jesus, guy must have a really, really small wiener, seriously 3. The money excuse is lame...yes, Savage compromised a lot of $...but there stil was enough left (Savage esp. did that not likely to be earned trick which I doubt Mangini even uses)....Mangini AGAIN opted for quantity OVER quality in FA.....Royal is still partying over the money he got from the moron, same with Womack and StClair....nobody forced him to sign those bums....he could have gotten 2 decent players for the money he gave those bums....like Birk or Holt.....or re-signed Friedman for minimum who looked no worse than Womack at G
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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btw:
ProBowl LT
ProBowl NT
ProBowl ST
above average CB
above average G
above average WR
above average TE
above average ILB
IS NOT "a pile of crap with little talent"....Romeo had Jason Fisk at NT and Shelton at LT and Andra Davis as best player, lol and won/overachieved 6 game...what was that then?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Wright isn't a above average CB, it is just Pool and McDonald are so awfull around him. That is like saying Bill Clinton was a above average President. Yeah, major job creation during his tenure, but it is all about timing. Hell, I feel sorry for Abe Elam having to play with those dumbwits.
BE ain't above average either. Pure average WR. Got a great bod and great leaping ability, but dead hands. Struggles to catch. Can't teach that. Had a career year and has been overrated ever since.
I never have been a big Eric Steinbach fan. Can't push a pile which has really shown this year with the scheme they use. I don't care what type of guard you are, at some point you gotta push a pile. He can't. I didn't blame Mangini for calling him out in camp for that reason either.
Outside Cribbs,Thomas and Rogers Savage was a big bust.
This product wasn't much better than when Savage came in. That is the cold truth though the 'establishment" types in the NFL don't want to hear that because they love St.Phil.
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Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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After reading both your posts I've come to two possible conclusions: You're somehow related to Eric Mangini or It's a free day at the Oxycontin Clinic......... 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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I won't disagree too much on BE since I hated him...but the guy HAS some talent...yeah, you're probably right that PB talent + PSquad brain equates to AVG...still what WR did Savage inherit? QM? Ncutt? I don't even remember, lol...all worse than BE....look back at that draft btw: BE was one of the better top10 picks, it was a ... poor draft class at the top.....it's nothing like having the choice of Sanchez, Moreno, Maclin, Harvin, Oher OR Mack, lol....not even close to that
Wright is a pretty good cover CB who doesn not want to tackle BUT has shown that he CAN, he's just going through the motions for Mangini, lol ....that makes him an overall above AVG CB in my book...with some upside when he's motivated
Did you just defend Elam? Relative? Wife? lol....gotta love UDFA who made it this far...but he wouldn't start on 95% of the NFL teams out there
Steinbach? Well...he's no fit for a power-OL scheme, Thomas is neither...EM signed Womack and StClair...but oh well, they suck at it too and can't do anything else...just another example of EM being stubborn and trying to have it HIS way instead of playing to the best of his teams talent (remember? Tomlin is a 4-3 guy, yet he didn'T change the D because t worked...our pass-block finesse OL worked, esp. with the vertical play of DA...yet he changed it without having the horses to run it)....you're watching the result of Cartman's stubborness and idiocy ever sunday now....5 of 7 games with 200yds or less....nice
#gmstrong
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Man, are you on a roll.
#gmstrong
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Wright is not a above average coverage corner. He is dull and beatable. He struggles to understand the positioning of his body and gets outplayed.
Elam is a terrific run stopping saftey, saying he wouldn't start on 95% of teams is rediculous. Put a guy like Eric Berry by him rather than Pool and watch his stock soar.
Thomas plays a position, where run blocking is the least of his worries. The way the OL lines up in this scheme simply kills Steinbach, but even in more spaced schemes, he didn't overly impress me. He was just better than what we had before and that was all right.
The problem with the Phil Savage era in a nutshell.
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Mangini failed in the fact that:
1. He sold off Winslow and Edwards with nothing of value in short term return.
2. He made a mess of the QB situation
3. He replaced average talent with average talent.
The Browns went from average to pathetic with these moves. We can toss in the challenge of the new OC as well.
Now the rumblings are that Mangini is adverse to "stars" or other high profile player or high draft choice of a skilled position. Sheesh, its what he gets paid to do. No we don't like everyone around us, but we have to recognize that it is impossible for a good team to exist without some star recognition.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Toad, you've never been this bad, really....and I consider you a good poster, even when I disagree....but this is as bad as I've read ya
Thanks for the compliment, but don't fall into the same trap that people tend to trip into when reading my comments.
The reason I apologize for repeating myself is to make it clear where I stand, and as that pertains to Mangini, I've said it over and over and over again:
He carries his own cross for the mistakes he's already made. That isn't the same as accepting blame for things he had no control over.
So don't fall into the trap of holding me to one thought process because I don't fault him for everything, or don't go 150% to one polar ideal or the other. He carries his own cross for his own mistakes, but the blame isn't all his.
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1. the guy inherited a much better prodruct than Savage/RAC...
I disagree.
If you base it on pure talent, maybe, but much of that talent had no future here, which is why I disagree with the premise.
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2. he inherited one of the YOUNGEST teams in the NFL..........we had 2 mid-round prospects from Savage in Bell and Williams...what does he do? He drafts his own projects in Maiava and Veikune....anybody tell me with a straight face that Williams would NOT have helped more this year than Veikune..
Youth isn't served if the players can't play, and by this point in their careers, Bell and Williams would have either developed or failed. They failed, so they are gone.
It's no different than 'backers Bentley and Thompson. They were still young, but by their 3rd or 4th years, they hadn't developed and were gone. They are now backups on the Texans.
So again, I disagree, and it furthers my point: Mangini can be blamed if his draft picks (veikune, Maiva) fail, but not for the draft picks (Williams, Bell) he inherited. And since it's too soon to call his draft picks failures, it's too soon to call HIM a complete failure.
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Royal is still partying over the money he got from the moron, same with Womack and StClair....nobody forced him to sign those bums....he could have gotten 2 decent players for the money he gave those bums...
Just like Savage did with the first set of bums he brought in to man our offensive line on his first go-around. Remember them? Why did he do that? Because he had to rebuild. He put the team in a great cap position and drafted players, then when he thought the team was ready for an influx of high-end free agents, he went after them.
That's what he SHOULD have done. He messed it up by missing on draft picks and choosing the wrong free agents.
I doubt you remember it, but I was livid that Mangini didn't go after name free agents. I then accepted this was a rebuilding team and accepted the path of that plan, which is no high-priced free agents, addition by subtraction, and a bad 2009. The end-result SHOULD be good free agents and lots of quality draft picks and young players in 2010. Since that can't be judged yet, I can't say I'm ready to pass judgment on Mangini.
Savage had the right gameplan. He just didn't execute. He started out with a BAD roster, blew it up, and plugged in cheap free agent/stopgap players as he tore the thing down. Then, when the team got solid, it was time to throw the dice on high-priced free agents and gambles with his draft picks.
He chose poorly and lost.
Now, Mangini is doing the same thing. The question is going to be whether or not he can find the right players, and since that hasn't been determined yet, I can't fairly judge him yet on that aspect of this project.
Call that making apologies if you wish, but I see the same picture that Savage drew. I understood that game plan then, and I understand this one now.
That ISN'T the same as criticizing Mangini for the things he's screwed up on.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Have to agree to disagree on Wright...I never labeld him good or great...above AVG means he's better than 50% of the #2 CBs out there...and he is...if he was a FA teams would start a bidding war for his services to get a good #2 for their team Quote:
Elam is a terrific run stopping saftey, saying he wouldn't start on 95% of teams is rediculous. Put a guy like Eric Berry by him rather than Pool and watch his stock soar.
Whoever needs playmakers besides him can't be labeled "terrific"....if I had superman besides me I could fly...so what?
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He was just better than what we had before and that was all right.
The problem with the Phil Savage era in a nutshell.
I agree here...and might add: better than what is here now...I don't want Savage back but if I had a gun to my head I'd chose him over EM any day
#gmstrong
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"Savage had the right gameplan. He just didn't execute"
Well said. That was the difference between Savage and Butch/Clark/Carmen. He knew how to do it, but didn't have the talent himself to do it like his mentor, Ozzy.
Hopefully Mangini does. It will make this fanbase and the league look stupid. That is for sure.
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btw:
ProBowl LT
ProBowl NT
ProBowl ST
above average CB
above average G
above average WR
above average TE
above average ILB
IS NOT "a pile of crap with little talent"....Romeo had Jason Fisk at NT and Shelton at LT and Andra Davis as best player, lol and won/overachieved 6 game...what was that then?
You know as well as I do that Edwards and Winslow had no future here and had to go. It was just a matter of time for both. Sooner is as or better than later.
Now recompile your list. That's 6 players, one of which is nothing more than a special-teamer.
Sorry, this team was crap with it's only two really talented offensive players soon-to-be ex-Browns.
This is a rebuild. The sooner everyone accepts that this was the plan, the sooner it'll make sense.
'Dubia...........Don't believe that Mangini told Lerner one thing to get the gig then turned around and rebuilt everything just the opposite way. They HAD to tell the press and the public they could win with this bunch. There was no decision regarding that to make. This was the gameplan all along. It's ugly and it hurts, but is this really that much different than what Savage did? Not really.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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It's exactly what Savage did and I see no problem with that as I think it is the right plan. But the "we can win with this roster" thing and then immediately go into rebuilding mode had me puzzled. And yes, if they do it right they will again do what Savage did and bring in some FA's next year and actually start the rebuilding process. So far all we've seen, and rightfully so, is the tear down. (the givaway season)  I distinctly remember Savage saying mid-season '05 that he wished he could fast-forward to the end of the season so he could get started. Whatever they had to say to the media it was odd to me that they disclosed that Pioli said rebuild and Mangini said no. That was portrayed as one of the reasons Lerner chose Mangini. That's what had me confused in the beginning.
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But the "we can win with this roster" thing and then immediately go into rebuilding mode had me puzzled.
Bro, I know I sound like I'm preaching. Forgive me  But I believe it was you and I that had a conversation in the not-too distant past about "coach-speak" and "media-speak." Mangini had no choice but to get the word out that he felt he could win with this team. LERNER had no choice but to go that route. When push comes to shove, they have to sell tickets, merchandise, and beer. So that's what they did.
Common sense will tell you that a guy like Mangini can't come in and tell an owner one thing, then just a few months later do the opposite and keep his job. Lerner would have seen to that. This was the plan. Being ready to dump Braylon, as they said they were, is all the proof you need. In fact, dumping Winslow early was a tip-off to anyone who was willing to ride the fence and look at things objectively.
I know I'm trying to walk a bunch of Browns fans off the ledge. It's not my normal way to play peacekeeper or negotiator  I'm usually quick to bury people, but in this case, I'm non-pulsed by all this because it's essentially what I expected.
I think most fans should have as well.
Oh yeah, forgot to add something. Maybe my mind isn't remembering correctly, but part of the problem with Pioli involved control as well as word that he wanted to bring Ferentz to town. Even if those proved untrue, there's more than just a question of rebuilding/competing as to why he didn't come here.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Ok Toad, fair is fair...but even if you subtract BE and KW it really is better than what Romeo had....my point is: how come that poor roster at least played hard and looked way better than what EM runs out there (players AND scheme)....I want some accountability, rebuild or not...we look worse than EVER and we were in CONSTANT rebuild, so I just don't accept that as an excuse...this team isn't just overmatched...it's lifeless, being outcoached...EVERYTHING....it's unacceptable. Also, guys like Coleman, Elam etc all his former Jets were supposed to be decent...after all they started there for him....on top of a PB NT, LT and ST...and we still look like that? Man, I'd like to believe...but this is pathetic on his draft....I know it's too early to be fair but I do this draft crap every year and watch lots of CFB, it's "only" strong opinion at this point but I also said so right after the draft....this Browns draft class has no chance....it's the worst from a potential impact (because of a lot of high picks) to actual impact standpoint ....trust me...this draft was blown...the 6th was ok though and yeah, I remember your FA pimping...I was on your bandwagon, esp with Birk (wanted Brown though) since I didn't want to draft a C high with all our other needs....now, how did that turn out?
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"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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And yes, if they do it right they will again do what Savage did and bring in some FA's next year and actually start the rebuilding process. So far all we've seen, and rightfully so, is the tear down. (the givaway season) I distinctly remember Savage saying mid-season '05 that he wished he could fast-forward to the end of the season so he could get started.
See...that'S the problem....no FA will come here...cause Mangini isn't Crennel and Kokinis isn't Savage....and we look much more hopeless than the Browns in their 1st year....so, even if you think their plan is right....their EXECUTION has not even a CHANCE....and then there's the inability to evaluate talent (draft AND FA)....I really think these guys are clueless...and I have lots of examples to back that up
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"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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See...that'S the problem....no FA will come here...cause Mangini isn't Crennel and Kokinis isn't Savage....
Ok, Django......let's make a friendly wager here, ok?
My sig is open, and will remain that way until next year. Here's what I'll give you: If next offseason comes and goes, and we don't land a single high-priced free agent player who has interest from other teams, I'll leave something in my sig that says you were right and I was wrong.
So, what would you offer if we do land a free agent?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Well, that depends on what we deem "good"...."high priced" doesn't mean good...Royal was high priced for a TE.... I'd wager that no above average player signs with us....and I better say this now...there are maybe 10-15 FA max that I would label above AVG or better...so I don't know if I'm the right guy for this game....but here's my proposal: couple of days before the start of FA we start this pissing match thread and try to agree on players who'd qualify (above average)....when that's done we'll easily agree on some sig stuff, ok? btw: Campbell would not qualify...he's barely an AVG QB at best...there are easily 15 better ones in the league...to qualify as "above AVG" the player must be better than at least 55-60% of other league starters at his position...not many of these guys EVER make it to FA
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Phil Savage commenting on how the
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