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OK, so we're halfway through the season. There's plenty of talk about Mangini's future, specifically how long it will last.
That said, I'm pretending that Randy Lerner has asked me to objectively evaluate Eric Mangini's performance up to this point. This includes the way he's structured the team, as well as his coaching ability.
Now, since I'm a new poster (have been reading for some time), here's my background. I'm a Browns fan living in Western New York (south of Buffalo), and I've had Browns season tickets since 2000. I travel the three hours to Cleveland every week and, even though they lose, continue to enjoy it. I follow the team very closely, reading just about every blog and article. My parents grew up in Cleveland, and as soon as I finish graduating from college, just one short month from now, I hope to move there ASAP.
OK. Here's the evaluation:
DRAFT: C- ----- It's extraordinarily early to gauge the long-term impact of any of our draft selections, but here's the short-term analysis. Alex Mack is developing. He's getting better, but he has a very poor quarterback exchange, especially regarding his snaps in the shotgun. His blocking has been solid all season, though, and he's done a nice job against some of the league's top talent at DT. Mack is the only reason why this grade is so high.
Mangini passed on the likes of Ray Maualuga (how nice does he look right now?) for Robiskie, Massaquoi, and David Veikune. Veikune hasn't played, and even with all of the injuries at ILB and OLB, only saw about half of the action at Chicago. Massaquoi looks like he'll be alright, but a friend of mine who followed Georgia football quite closely (and is a Browns fan) says he reminds him of Braylon Edwards all over again. This is NOT regarding attitude, but regarding drops and turnovers. We've already seen two fumbles from MM, and plenty of drops. Robiskie was a nice pick for the fans, but I think it's safe to say he was a bit of a reach, and we could have had better talent.
Kaluka Maiava was a nice pick in the fourth round, and obviously the book is still out on him. It will be nice to see his development throughout the rest of the season.
Don Carey is no longer with us, thanks in part to an error in the way we handled his injury situation regarding the roster/waiver wire, and Coye Francies still can't get on the field in a WEAK secondary. I know he's a sixth-round selection, but I'm starting to wonder if Francies will have ANY impact at all on this team. The bottom line is if you can't cut it on THIS roster, you won't be cutting it anywhere else.
No comment on James Davis following the injury. I will say he looked very productive in the preseason.
TRADES: D- ----- Remember when the Browns actually had the opportunity to trade Braylon Edwards to the Giants for a 2nd round pick, 4th round pick and Steve Smith? Can we get a do-over on that? Or how abuot the draft day trades, where we moved down THREE times, securing Brett Ratliff, Kenyon Coleman, Abe Elam, and some late round selections in the process? Well, Ratliff is our third quarterback, Coleman is actually productive on the line, and Elam, who looked like he had the chance to be solid at FS, is struggling. Big time. I'm not saying we should have drafted Mark Sanchez instead, but I am saying that we could have received more value for the picks we gave up.
BUILDING THE ROSTER: F ---- In short, Eric Mangini either removed or regressed the talent on our team. At the beginning of the season, we had two quarterbacks who were decent at worst. The handling of those quarterbacks was one of the worst mistakes I've seen from a head coach in a long, long time, and there's no question it regressed both of them. Brady Quinn was not the same Brady Quinn in the first three games of this season as he was in the three games he played last year, where he dropped 30 on Denver and beat Buffalo on MNF with a broken finger. Derek Anderson is the WORST quarterback in the league, and while he may have been bad at the beginning of 2008, he certainly was NOT the worst QB in the NFL.
We have a serious lack of talent at the receiver position, the right side of the offensive line (built by Mangini) is probably the worst in the league and we have a secondary that lacks the ability to cover OR tackle. I guess the only strengths of our roster are the left side of the OL (thanks, Phil Savage!), our defensive line to an extent (good job, Brian Cox!), and tailback, where we feature a guy about to retire! If there was a grade lower than F, I'd give it here.
COACHING: D ----- This is the most frustrating aspect of all. Mangini talks a great game (when he's discussing X's and O's) in his press conferences. The guy knows football. Unfortunately, he lacks the ability to teach the game to his players, who are CONSTANTLY out-coached on the offensive side of the ball, and have made some HUGE mistakes defensively. Rob Ryan is the only reason this grade is higher than an F. He's creative and actually shows emotion on the sidelines. The guy wants to win. The defense has been inspired at times this season, even though they have one of the worst offenses in the history of professional football on the other side of the ball.
Brian Daboll is a failed experiment. In the past, the Browns have fired offensive coordinators prematurely. While every OC will call some boneheaded plays, Daboll is just way, way, waaaaay over his head. Either he's out-thinking himself, or he really is not qualified for this job, because the playcalling is the worst I've seen since I've been attending games.
The special teams coaching is good, and I like Brad Seely. He seems to know what he's doing. The problem is, his unit isn't important enough to win us games week-in, and week-out. Sure, we may see a touchdown or two or ten from Cribbs, but the Browns are now 1-7 in games which he returns either a kick or punt for a score. That says to me that special teams don't have as much of an impact as Eric Mangini would like you to believe (and why wouldn't he, since it's the only phase of the team that actually looks respectable).
OVERALL GRADE: F ----- In short, I've never seen a fan-base turn against a new coach only three games into his tenure. That's just astounding. Eric Mangini has taken a decent football team, and made it into one of the worst in the NFL. So far, not so good for Mangini in the halfway point of this season.
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This is pointless.Mangini's report card should just read INCOMPLETE..he made a mess of the QB situation and his OC hire is a failure..but he has this team in great cap shape and with 11 draft picks we have the opportunity to build this team through the draft.
I really don't blame him for sitting Quinn to avoid paying him nearly $11 mil in bonus money..it was the right thing to do for this team in the long term.
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Quote:
I really don't blame him for sitting Quinn to avoid paying him nearly $11 mil in bonus money..it was the right thing to do for this team in the long term.
Just my opinion, but that's one of the most far-fetched statements I've EVER heard.
I think the right thing to do for the long term would have been to develop Quinn as a franchise quarterback, so you won't have to draft someone else now, and pay him millions of guaranteed money before he ever takes a snap. By the way, those millions will be more than the $11 million that we "saved" by sitting Quinn. Just absurd.
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Quote:
Quote:
I really don't blame him for sitting Quinn to avoid paying him nearly $11 mil in bonus money..it was the right thing to do for this team in the long term.
Just my opinion, but that's one of the most far-fetched statements I've EVER heard.
I think the right thing to do for the long term would have been to develop Quinn as a franchise quarterback, so you won't have to draft someone else now, and pay him millions of guaranteed money before he ever takes a snap. By the way, those millions will be more than the $11 million that we "saved" by sitting Quinn. Just absurd.
And herein lies why Lerner was so pissed yesterday and busted out that "We need someone to give clear explanations for moves..." or whatever he said line.
We have literally no idea why Quinn was benched. Mangini said he thought the team needed a spark and brought DA in. DA then proceeded to get twice the time as Quinn while being less productive at QB.
So what was going on here? People say it's because Quinn's contract escalators, some others say he hates Brady Quinn. The simple fact is that we'll never know because Mangini will never tell us. In fact, I doubt he told the QB's, the GM or the owner why either.
The problem is that was his knock in NYC and he is doing the same thing here as well. It's probably the biggest reason he's ass is on the hot seat right now too.
you had a good run Hank.
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Really?? You really have no idea why Quinn was benched? It was about the money..don't be so naive..Quinn played against three of the best teams in the league..while Anderson sucked against mainly middle of the pack teams..it was about the money and having it available for the future..it's not rocket science and you don't need Mangini to admit it to figure it out..
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Quote:
Quote:
I really don't blame him for sitting Quinn to avoid paying him nearly $11 mil in bonus money..it was the right thing to do for this team in the long term.
Just my opinion, but that's one of the most far-fetched statements I've EVER heard.
I think the right thing to do for the long term would have been to develop Quinn as a franchise quarterback, so you won't have to draft someone else now, and pay him millions of guaranteed money before he ever takes a snap. By the way, those millions will be more than the $11 million that we "saved" by sitting Quinn. Just absurd.
I left out the "absurd" because we really don't know what the reasoning is/was, but I couldn't agree more that Quinn should have been allowed to 'develop' as much as Derek was allowed to continue to fail--that's not ALL on Anderson, but he is not it.
2007 was an aberration and DA played well BECAUSE the Browns drafted Quinn,...now, why did we really draft Quinn ? Was it NOT to replace Anderson ? Of course it was,...the Kid should play. I said that from day one, wolves or not.
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Quote:
Mangini's Midway Report Card
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Really?? You really have no idea why Quinn was benched? It was about the money..don't be so naive..Quinn played against three of the best teams in the league..while Anderson sucked against mainly middle of the pack teams..it was about the money and having it available for the future..it's not rocket science and you don't need Mangini to admit it to figure it out..
I didn't say that I didn't THINK I knew why Quinn was bench, it's that the head coach never admitted as to why he was benched.
That's the problem and that's why Lerner is pissed at Mangini, because of all those secrets.
you had a good run Hank.
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Mangini's GPA;
Zero point Zero
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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And it SHOULD be a secret from the players and the fans, but you would think the coach might let the owner in on his long term money saving plan
yebat' Putin
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 and John Blutarsky would have done a better job too !
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Quote:
And it SHOULD be a secret from the players and the fans, but you would think the coach might let the owner in on his long term money saving plan
Pretty much.
Which is why I thought the whole money excuse was interesting, considering he never was told by Lerner nor never told Lerner about that plan, apparently.
I've said it a bunch, but what a nightmare.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
Brian Daboll is a failed experiment. In the past, the Browns have fired offensive coordinators prematurely. While every OC will call some boneheaded plays, Daboll is just way, way, waaaaay over his head. Either he's out-thinking himself, or he really is not qualified for this job, because the playcalling is the worst I've seen since I've been attending games.
Does anybody disagree with this? I do think Daboll is the weak link of the coaching staff and if Mangini is still here, Daboll is gone.
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Quote:
Mangini's GPA;
Zero point Zero
is that on a 4 point scale? 
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Quote:
Mangini's GPA;
Zero point Zero
Ironically, his GPA almost matches DA's Passer Rating.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
Quote:
Brian Daboll is a failed experiment. In the past, the Browns have fired offensive coordinators prematurely. While every OC will call some boneheaded plays, Daboll is just way, way, waaaaay over his head. Either he's out-thinking himself, or he really is not qualified for this job, because the playcalling is the worst I've seen since I've been attending games.
Does anybody disagree with this? I do think Daboll is the weak link of the coaching staff and if Mangini is still here, Daboll is gone.
I was slightly surprised on a couple of plays yesterday that seemed out-of-the-box, but for the most part, this guy's offense is about as predictable as snow in Minnesota.
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Quote:
OVERALL GRADE: F ----- In short, I've never seen a fan-base turn against a new coach only three games into his tenure. That's just astounding. Eric Mangini has taken a decent football team, and made it into one of the worst in the NFL. So far, not so good for Mangini in the halfway point of this season.
sorry dude, we were not decent last year... and we have 11 draft picks next year. he has a plan for the roster, it is just incomplete...
i didnt think we would be THIS BAD but ask yourself...what players that we have could make other teams? thats not mangini's fault...he inherited most of the roster
Every Cleveland fan is a diehard fan...everyone else quit watching
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I will give you props for a good post. I respect people who take the time to author a longer well thought out post instead of one liners filled with insults. Even though you CAN sum up our organization in one sentence or two words to be exact: We suck.
That being said;
Draft--D--
Hindsight is always 20/20 but there were many MANY posters on here that were scratching our heads on some of, or all of, the selections.
We could have selected:
Clay Matthews, James Laurinaitis, Rey M., Austin Collie, Andy Levitre, Louis Vasquez, T,J. Lang, Sean Smith, LeSean McCoy, Percy Harvin (my he looks good) ALL starters or contributors to their respective teams.
I remember everyone understanding the rationale, they have smarts, but we weren't selecting a Jeopardy team.
Mack wasn't a bad pick, I guess he felt he wouldn't be there in round two, Robiskie, I thought would become a decent number 3, MoMass has a lot to prove, no one heard of Veikune to say nothing of how hard it is to convert a DE to an OLB even harder to ILB. THAT was a reach! No one heard of Maiava. Francies and Davis have a learning curve and Davis is out with an injury so we will see about him next year.
Coaching--D--
Coaching is abysmal, I give it a 'D' and like you, feel that Ryan elevates that score. What we could do with some playmakers on that side of the ball . . .
Roster--F--
He let a bunch of average people go, replaced them with average people who allegedly would understand him and that would translate to better play . . . yeah right. Our roster is WORSE than it was last year. And despite having 4 pro bowl caliber players on our team we can't win.
So the real question I have is if Mangini was fired NOW, not going to happen I know, what would be gained/lost. I think we will be in Jan. where we are now, rudderless and abysmal.
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i didnt think we would be THIS BAD but ask yourself...what players that we have could make other teams? thats not mangini's fault...he inherited most of the roster
The problem is that Mangini took what very minimal talent we had from last year and turned it into a bunch of backups.
There is only two players on this team currently that I am 100% sure would start for NFL teams and that Rogers and Thomas...after that, you have a few players like Wright and Cribbs who can be very productive, but really, Mangini lowered the talent level on this team a considerable amount. He's got to take responsibility for his actions at some point.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
Quote:
i didnt think we would be THIS BAD but ask yourself...what players that we have could make other teams? thats not mangini's fault...he inherited most of the roster
The problem is that Mangini took what very minimal talent we had from last year and turned it into a bunch of backups.
There is only two players on this team currently that I am 100% sure would start for NFL teams and that Rogers and Thomas...after that, you have a few players like Wright and Cribbs who can be very productive, but really, Mangini lowered the talent level on this team a considerable amount. He's got to take responsibility for his actions at some point.
My point exactly. No one is saying we were anything special before Mangini got here, but he took what we had and made it considerably worse, to the point that we can't even be competitive. That's on him, and no one else.
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yea.. this next draft is almost like we have started all the way back over from square one (1999).
Backups Galore~~
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Finally, The Maskedman has come back, to the true Cleveland Browns Message Board.
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Hey aben....keep posting, like your enthusiasm  You've been too nice on the draft grade though  - Mack is a project at C, I'm sorry...I don't know what you're all looking at...but I see a C that is either athletically or mentally (probably both) overmatched in pass blocking....did anybody see him whiff on the DT leading into a 1.2sec sack (or hurried throw, forgot) of DA on 3rd down yeserday in the 1st Qtr? Man, I can tell you I was POed. Here's the truth guys...Mack is a project C, maybe he gets it in 2-3 years....as a C only he should have been a 2nd to 3rd rounder....right now, he's nothing more than a RG...and you just don't draft RGs/prjoect-C at #21 overall...especially not when you have a dozen other needs at way more important positions.....just a bad pick at the time Robo? Lol....he 's the next D.Jarrett, Sweed...big school attention, small talent....just can't separate and isn't physical enough Massa? Quincy Morgan pt.2...body catcher, drop prone, underachieved 3 and a half year with Stafford at QB, then woke up in time to make some $$...at best a below average #2....probably bounce around the league as a #4 WR because of his draft status for some years before he fades his way out Veikune? a project drafted in the 2nd round....slow, athletically limited (see a pattern?) and stil has no clue as of now, wasn't even an impact player at Hawaii Maiava? a Tampa-2 ILB drafted for the 3-4 proudly presented as a ST-demon (I don't know about you guys....but I would not draft for ST/backup CEILING guys at the start of round 4....even if I'm sure he'll become a really decent ST/backup guy...I'd rather take a shot at a Leon Williams) 6th round was good...but too litle too late...probably the round where the scouts had their way (I've heard that quite often, Savage did mention that too) and Mangini didn't "know" anybody.....of course he had to give away Carey Coaching:Most uncreative schemes I've EVER seen....no plan, no identity...he wants a power-run, ball control Offense with a soft-finesse left side of the OL...then he inserts DA who WILL NEVER WORK in that kind of offense....left-side OL and DA fit a vertical Offense, right side and Jamal a power O...WR don't fit any, since NONE of them has starter talent....they are the biggest problem: none of those bums would even get 3 looks in any other NFL Offense....result? Under 10p/game... D-side: Ryan isn't all that good either...he just looks better because the other coaches suck so much more...he's another Grantham...I remember when some on here wnated Grantham at HC beacuse he yelled, lol...the Ryans are jerks and I'm convinced by now they are in over their heads as anything more than Coords....lynch me but that's what I think....Ryan isn't the part of ANY solution folks...he has a pretty good DL and we still get gashed for 5yds/run....the zones are soft...too many S-blitzes....Ryan isn't awful but he's well below league average as DC, trust me....I see plenty other games Seely...well I liked his hire, he was a proven coach and has 3 ST-units to work with now, a PB Returner and PB-LS to boot I guess Mangini still believes that game are won on ST, like a kid believes in Santa.... FA: Horrendous. StClair, Womack, Royal, Poteat, Barton, Bowens....Cartman "managed" to make us WORSE and OLDER....mission accomplished
Last edited by DjangoBrown; 11/02/09 04:43 PM.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Django,
First off, you've been very right about Mangini and I think you deserve credit for calling it from the start.
Second, I don't think you're right about Mack. Mack may miss a few blocks and his pass blocking does need work, but you are completely ignoring his run blocking, where he is clearing HUGE holes in the defense.
There is a difference between a project and someone needing a few years to become dominating. Mack is a good player right now who has struggled in pass protection, but give him a year or so and he'll be fine.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
Second, I don't think you're right about Mack. Mack may miss a few blocks and his pass blocking does need work, but you are completely ignoring his run blocking, where he is clearing HUGE holes in the defense.
That's why I say he's a RG....a good starting RG..but you just don't draft good starting RGs in round 1....we originally had a Top10 pick and come up with a 1-dimensional interior-OL? How does that sound? 
Also, as a C his run blocking isn't as good as you guys make it....he's on the 2nd level a lot...guess what....so was Hank. He releases his man too early and our RBs get stuffed at the LOS....how many times have we seen this all year? Did our run game improve? No, it didn't because Mack isn't even that good in run blocking as you guys make him....maybe he'll settle down....but right now he looks overly nervous and he makes TONS of mistakes that don't escape my eyes...too many for such a high pick at this particular position. Just because he's better than the other bums we drafted (well he SHOULD since he was drafted ahead of them) doesn't mean he's "good"...right now he's not even playing at league average....and to be brutally honest: overall his game isn't even below average...I really think right now there are only 5-12 worse starting Cs out there in the NFL....I know he's a rook, and he has room to grow which mayn ahead of him don't.....but still: we drafted 3 offensive players in this years top 50 and we have 0 impact...and that's part of the reason why we suck on Offense...I'm not going to sugar coat it....and I like Mack don't get me wrong..but it is what it is and he should be compared to those who were drafted around him...and right now....it doesn't look too good
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Two things stick out as clearly wrong and/or naive: Quote:
Remember when the Browns actually had the opportunity to trade Braylon Edwards to the Giants for a 2nd round pick, 4th round pick and Steve Smith?
When did this trade scenario ever actually present itself? As I recall, the *rumor* was that the Browns offered the Giants BE for a 2nd, *5th*, and Steve Smith; the Giants declined. So in that line alone I think you somehow managed to get about 3 key points wrong. (who offered, the compensation, and you're assuming that it actually happened in the first place because it was rumored in the media)
Also, hindsight is 20/20 and you have to make the best decision at the time with the information available. Give me a past stock graph of any company and I can show you exactly where you should buy and sell.
Quote:
Eric Mangini has taken a decent football team, and made it into one of the worst in the NFL. So far, not so good for Mangini in the halfway point of this season.
I'm not sure I can defend all the Mangini moves and I won't even try. But to say he "has taken a decent football team" is beyond ludicrous it's astounding. More accurately, the Browns were *THE WORST* team in the league in the second half of 2008. Look up the stats. And of course, they're still terrible.
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Roster? Let's look at which players were replaced ...... (comparing the Dec 3, 2008 roster with today's roster) Linkage QB: Ken Dorsey RB: Jason Wright FB: Charles Ali OL: Isaac Sowells OL: Lenny Friedman OL: Seth McKinney OL: Ryan Tucker OL: Kevin Shaffer OL: Scott Young WR: Braylon Edwards WR: Cedric Steptoe WR: Dante Stallworth WR: Paul Hubbard WR: Kevin Kasper TE:: Darnell Dinkins TE: Martin Rucker TE: Kellen Winslow DL: Shaun Smith DL: Louis Leonard LB: Andra Davis LB: Willie McGinnist LB: Antwan Peak LB: Beau Bell LB: Kris Griffin LB: Leon Williams CB: Travis Daniels CB: Terry Cousins S: Sean Jones Which of these guys do you desperately want back? How many are even still playing in the NFL? Of those, how many are starters? These are 28 players who were replaced this year. Sometimes replacing junk with junk is just an attempt at throwing crap against the wall and seeing if you get lucky and some sticks. This roster was sorely lacking in talent. It still is. 1 off-season isn;t going to suddenly turn that fact around. Look at who stuck: Anderson and Quinn ..... no proven starter. Lewis ..... old ... Harrison ..... thus far a tease .... TE: An injured Steve Heiden ..... WR: .... anyone ? OL: Thomas, Steinbach, Fraley,and an injured Hadnot. The defense fared a little better ... but still no overwhelming talent to speak of. (Outside of maybe Rogers) A team without talent loses far more than it wins ..... and this is still a team with very little talent.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I agree... the back end of our roster was terrible and many of the guys who were cut are out of the NFL, and most of the rest aren't doing much for their new teams. The only 2 guys with real talent (BE and K2) we at least got some compensation for, not that they are helping their new teams do much anyway (I think their new teams are a combined 1-10 or something like that).
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We were offered a 2nd, a 5th and Domenik Hixon or Marrio Manningham. We asked for Steve Smith and they said no.
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Roster? Let's look at which players were replaced ...... (comparing the Dec 3, 2008 roster with today's roster)
1st off...you do know that's actually an argument AGAINST Mangini, do you?
2. Yes, he replaced BE, KW, Shaffer, McKinney/Friedman and Tucker with Massa/Robo, Royal, Womack, StCalir and Yates...yes, that's some serious downgrade...our D looks the same sicne it's basically the same....our O? Oh well...."it's a process" I guess
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Dawg Talker
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Draft: F Its so rare to have 4 picks in the top fifty. 3 of them were horrible picks, 2 of them were not just bad picks, but wastes...total wates. FA period: F Plenty of guy available that made sense for this team, none were signed. Instead we target a bunch of EM's secuirty blankets and a few other worthless vets. None, no not one, of our FA class is doing anything for this team. Coaching: D Rob Ryan was a good choice for DC, love the guy, love the scheme. Daboll is the worst OC in the league. Mangini has almost no support in the locker room, and most of the players hate his guts. Building the roster: F+F = F Results:
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Roster? Let's look at which players were replaced ...... (comparing the Dec 3, 2008 roster with today's roster)
1st off...you do know that's actually an argument AGAINST Mangini, do you?
2. Yes, he replaced BE, KW, Shaffer, McKinney/Friedman and Tucker with Massa/Robo, Royal, Womack, StCalir and Yates...yes, that's some serious downgrade...our D looks the same sicne it's basically the same....our O? Oh well...."it's a process" I guess
This roster was seriously bereft of talent. Shaffer is a backup who can't see the field on a team with a horrible OL. Are Tucker, Friedman, and McKinney even on an NFL roster? Not that I can see.
Edwards was a talented player who was as inconsistent as the day is long. He's like the old saying .... when he was bad .... he was very, very bad ......
Winslow was also a talented player. Was he worth being paid as the highest paid TE in the NFL? I don't know.
What great talents did we dump? Those are really the only 2 I see. The rest were, and still are ... bums .....
When you are a 3rd or 4th year GM ... and your team is mostly bums ..... you lose your job and someone else has to try and clean up after you. That happened to Savage. He left a team with few cornerstones (Thomas, and maybe Rogers) and almost no talent. Yea. 
I'm not even going to try and argue that Mangini hasn't made a lot of mistakes .... because he has. However, I'm also not going to blame him for the fact that half of last year's roster is now out of the NFL either. When you inherit crap you aren't going to polish it up and make gold out of it. You flush it away ..... replace it with minor upgrades as you can ... and try to build a team through the draft. That's been his stated philosophy ... and it's one that I happen to agree with. Whether or not his draftees have been the best possible players for the Browns is ... and forever will be open to debate. 6 months really isn't time enough to know for sure though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The problem isn't who he let go.
The problem is Mangini somehow found a way to bring in lesser talent than what we had last year and then watching the talent regress from game to game.
I think it's a fire able offense.
you had a good run Hank.
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Legend
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Legend
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But you cannot just go "buy" everything in one fell swoop ......
Sometimes you have to look ahead at cap ramifications ..... what players are actually available .... how many draft picks you have and what flexibility you have within that framework .....
Let's not forget that in addition to having a roster full of players 1 year away from NFL retirement ..... Savage also left a team stripped of draft picks as well. (We had .... 4 ..... I believe ... prior to all of the trades ..?)
How do you upgrade a roster so completely depleted of talent in one off-season with little talent available ..... and almost no draft picks in the cupboard?
Thos team has probably (not counting this year's rookie class) 5 or 6 legitimate NFL starters. The rookies may, or may not join that group. Our superstar is a Tackle. Valuable .... and essential .... but hardly a scoring threat or a defensive stalwart. He's valuable ..... but not a game changer.
How do you upgrade a roster in one off-season under the conditions available to Mangini? This team was a mess. It remains a mess. Was there really a different possible outcome after 1 off-season?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Two things stick out as clearly wrong and/or naive:
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Remember when the Browns actually had the opportunity to trade Braylon Edwards to the Giants for a 2nd round pick, 4th round pick and Steve Smith?
When did this trade scenario ever actually present itself? As I recall, the *rumor* was that the Browns offered the Giants BE for a 2nd, *5th*, and Steve Smith; the Giants declined. So in that line alone I think you somehow managed to get about 3 key points wrong. (who offered, the compensation, and you're assuming that it actually happened in the first place because it was rumored in the media)
Also, hindsight is 20/20 and you have to make the best decision at the time with the information available. Give me a past stock graph of any company and I can show you exactly where you should buy and sell.
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Eric Mangini has taken a decent football team, and made it into one of the worst in the NFL. So far, not so good for Mangini in the halfway point of this season.
I'm not sure I can defend all the Mangini moves and I won't even try. But to say he "has taken a decent football team" is beyond ludicrous it's astounding. More accurately, the Browns were *THE WORST* team in the league in the second half of 2008. Look up the stats. And of course, they're still terrible.
My mistake on Steve Smith. As a poster pointed out below, it was actually Mario Manningham. But the 2nd and 5th was in play. The Browns wanted either a 1st or Smith.
As for your last statement, the SAME roster went 10-6 in 2007. Say what you will about how they finished in 2008 (did you not watch the season and see the injuries, etc.), and they were certainly extraordinarily poor in '08, but they certainly were decent in '07. Savage and Crennel had a decent roster. Mangini turned us into one of the worst teams in the league.
That's not wrong, or naive. That's the truth. The 1-7 record, and the fact that we start the WORST QB in the NFL and rank dead last in almost every single statistical category would back that statement up.
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Hall of Famer
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But you cannot just go "buy" everything in one fell swoop ......
Sometimes you have to look ahead at cap ramifications ..... what players are actually available .... how many draft picks you have and what flexibility you have within that framework .....
Let's not forget that in addition to having a roster full of players 1 year away from NFL retirement ..... Savage also left a team stripped of draft picks as well. (We had .... 4 ..... I believe ... prior to all of the trades ..?)
How do you upgrade a roster so completely depleted of talent in one off-season with little talent available ..... and almost no draft picks in the cupboard?
Thos team has probably (not counting this year's rookie class) 5 or 6 legitimate NFL starters. The rookies may, or may not join that group. Our superstar is a Tackle. Valuable .... and essential .... but hardly a scoring threat or a defensive stalwart. He's valuable ..... but not a game changer.
How do you upgrade a roster in one off-season under the conditions available to Mangini? This team was a mess. It remains a mess. Was there really a different possible outcome after 1 off-season?
You could make that argument, although I expected improvement. What was expected is that this team would lose, but it would be competitive. The Browns have gone from fairly competitive back to full on expansion team and getting worse.
Now were there other options? Who knows. I do know one thing, this is what we are stuck with, with our only hope being this upcoming draft. Having looked at his last draft, I'm not sure if I want this man in control of the next 11. But that's not important because his personnel decisions are being stripped from him.
The most important thing and the reason I believe he will be fired is that he has already lost the team. Mangini told them that it was his way or the highway and that if they followed him, they would win. Well, they tried his way and they have been getting destroyed. With Jamal's outburst and the way they are playing, they have completely given up on all the coaches, even Rob Ryan.
Mangini has failed at making ANY positives this year. In fact, he's set the franchise back at least 2 to 3 years from being where we were in 07. Is it all his fault? Nope. Is it enough of his fault for him to be fired after one year of coaching and making decisions? I think so.
you had a good run Hank.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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1st String
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1st String
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How do you upgrade a roster in one off-season under the conditions available to Mangini? This team was a mess. It remains a mess. Was there really a different possible outcome after 1 off-season?
I get so tired of hearing such BS. Many on this very site (maybe not you YTown) have stated that after the 2007 season we had more talent than we have had since our return to the league in 99.
As far as I could tell we did. Was it good enough to win the division, HELL NO!
Was it something to build on HELL YES!
So many want to build slowly through the draft , but some do not realize that in today's NFL the draft is a gamble and when you hit on a player you have a short window before free agency or a sever injury happens.
Everyone seems to worry about the cap, well from what I understand the cap is null and void next season so the only person I can think of that this should concern is Randy Learner who is paying the bills! Not you or I.
Mangini is a jerk, and the sooner the Browns cut they're losses the better! 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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Two things stick out as clearly wrong and/or naive:
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Remember when the Browns actually had the opportunity to trade Braylon Edwards to the Giants for a 2nd round pick, 4th round pick and Steve Smith?
When did this trade scenario ever actually present itself? As I recall, the *rumor* was that the Browns offered the Giants BE for a 2nd, *5th*, and Steve Smith; the Giants declined. So in that line alone I think you somehow managed to get about 3 key points wrong. (who offered, the compensation, and you're assuming that it actually happened in the first place because it was rumored in the media)
Also, hindsight is 20/20 and you have to make the best decision at the time with the information available. Give me a past stock graph of any company and I can show you exactly where you should buy and sell.
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Eric Mangini has taken a decent football team, and made it into one of the worst in the NFL. So far, not so good for Mangini in the halfway point of this season.
I'm not sure I can defend all the Mangini moves and I won't even try. But to say he "has taken a decent football team" is beyond ludicrous it's astounding. More accurately, the Browns were *THE WORST* team in the league in the second half of 2008. Look up the stats. And of course, they're still terrible.
My mistake on Steve Smith. As a poster pointed out below, it was actually Mario Manningham. But the 2nd and 5th was in play. The Browns wanted either a 1st or Smith.
As for your last statement, the SAME roster went 10-6 in 2007. Say what you will about how they finished in 2008 (did you not watch the season and see the injuries, etc.), and they were certainly extraordinarily poor in '08, but they certainly were decent in '07. Savage and Crennel had a decent roster. Mangini turned us into one of the worst teams in the league.
That's not wrong, or naive. That's the truth. The 1-7 record, and the fact that we start the WORST QB in the NFL and rank dead last in almost every single statistical category would back that statement up.
2007 was an aberration. The Browns were never as good as some people on here seem to believe. It's the only winning season the franchise has had since 2002, and it was scattered among many bottom-5 finishes.
DA and Braylon both had far and away the best seasons of their careers. We had one of the weakest schedules in the league. There were literally no significant injuries, and as I seem to recall, the only starter that went down on offense was at right guard, and the replacement was an upgrade. That type of good injury luck is unheard of in the NFL and much more common is that teams lose MULTIPLE important players and good teams have good rosters from 1 to 53 and are able to plug and play and still be effective
Losing a Tom Brady in week 1 is going to ruin your season. Having a few banged up offensive starters miss time in preseason should NOT dereail a season.
Also remember that we had several close/miracle wins that season which more easily could have been losses (and in fairness, a couple heartbreaking losses as well).
And yet........ we still couldn't make the playoffs in a league where 37.5% of teams do.
Check Savage's draft and FA history. For starters, literally MOST picks from his earlier drafts are already out of the league. His more recent drafts are well on the way. The amount of money he spent in free agency and how little return we have to show for it speaks for itself.
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I'm not defending Savage. I didn't like the guy at all, actually. And I think Crennel wasn't the best of coaches in the world.
But you cannot defend anything else than saying that they had a DECENT roster in 2007 and subsequently in 2008. You just can't. No one goes 10-6 without a DECENT roster. I don't care what the schedule is, who had career years, etc., it just doesn't happen.
And you are ignorant at best to say that 2008 happened simply because of lack of talent. Last year was one of the worst in recent memory in terms of injuries, and when you're down to your 4th QB in the last two games, that's saying something. Again, DECENT roster, which had unfortunate things happen to it.
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I owe you a little laugh...
I plucked this and haven't stopped laughing.. Manpoleon -speak: As a staff we’re going to go through phase by phase and put together a plan for each one of the days of practice,” he said. “We want to identify what we do well and what we don’t do well and plan accordingly. We want to be ready to move forward for our prep against Baltimore.” WHAT he means: I'm going to give these Rhodes scholars a group of tests about theory and gameplans while I prowl the room like a hundred year old nun looking for knuckles to whack. Once I've made them write "I will play good" ten thousand times, I'll know the level of their dedication by their penmanship and determine who should start. We're getting ready to be prepared for the preparation of the Baltimore game and will be judged by our readiness and preparation. Mangini said he will evaluate all positions, including the quarterback.
“That’s what this week is about,” he said. “We’re not game-planning for an opponent, but doing self-evaluation. We want to proceed in the best way to improve.” This week is about evaluating because everyone knows that evaluating is the thing that made me tingle so much as I was fellating Bill Belichick all those years ago. We're not planning for an opponent, because that's what "teams" do and this isn't about the "team" as much as it is about me and my ability to evaluate, plan and become ready. Self evaluation. Often I evaluate myself and I want others to evaluate themselves because it leads to better football. We want to proceed with my processes because that's the best way to plan and be ready. Mangini said he talked with Lerner on Monday about the state of the Browns.
“I talked to Randy this morning,” Mangini said. “This is a process. We talked about this quite a bit. It doesn’t mean we’re not trying to win every game. It takes time. Randy and I share the same vision and what we talk about is how to go about accomplishing that." I told Randy to back off, that this is my process, not his. These men on the field, they are part of that process. I scolded him for about an hour. It doesn't mean we're not trying other processes that I've engineered myself with no help from anyone. It takes time for nuclear waste to reach a level that is safe for the fans to eat. Randy and I see the same assets paying money for quite a long time into the future and we talk about how hilarious it is that they are willing to pay for toxic waste while we eat filet mignon and caviar. “We’re trying to in the short term and the long term get to that process,” he said. “I don’t think the vision changes, you just have to adapt to the circumstances. I don’t think anybody is happy with the production we have. I think we’re all frustrated when you see opportunities and they’re wasted. The good thing about the bye week is being able to analyze those things and step back and move forward for the second half of the season.” We're using the process of getting to a process now and in the future. My vision won't change because I can't really see anything outside of 3 inches from my own aura and personal influence, so you'll just have to adapt to the enigma that is my process. You must touch my process. I don't think anybody is happy, anywhere - so I'm trying to even out my team a little with those who believe that they are happy. They're not. I think we're all frustrated with Brady Quinn, sitting on the bench, when he could have been helping, his ability being wasted. The good thing about the bye week is that I can step back AND move forward at the same time because I command space and time when I'm totally absorbed in an analysis of planning processes without having to think about the games or planning for an opponent. Mangini was asked if he felt he and Lerner were on the same page.
“That’s not the nature of our conversations,” he said. “There are short-term topics and next-year topics. We want to figure out what.” We don't talk about what he wants. We only talk about what I want. There is what I want now, which is for him to behold the majesty as I unsheath myself from his wretched cocoon - and what I want next year, which is a platinum office with an emerald throne. We want to figure out... what? Nothing. I've already figured it out and am complete within myself, my processes and my analyses. Lerner said he was ‘sick’ concerning the Browns current situation and Mangini was asked how he would describe his feelings.
“I have a lot of emotions, but I know it doesn’t happen overnight,” he said. “I’ve been a part of this process before.” I feel as other humans do, but I see more than they see. I continue as I have since that day that Lord Belichick pulled me from his loins and gave me breath. Mangini didn’t shed much light on his thoughts at quarterback, but said he doesn’t feel he gives Anderson a bigger margin of error in comparison to Quinn.
“At the quarterback position, you’ll have to look at everything in context,” he said. “When you look at the things we did in the second half. I don’t think those were a function of the throw. I don’t think anyone has a different margin of error.” A quarterback is merely a tool in the hand of my mind. If you could see what I see, you'd know that there is absolutely no difference in any QB in any level of play. One is the same as another as all hammers are the same in the hand of a master craftsman, such as myself, with my processes and plans. Mangini was asked what he thought about RB Jamal Lewis saying he was thinking of retiring at the end of the season.
“I think everybody makes decisions about their careers and I know Jamal takes losses hard and if a player didn’t take a loss hard, I’d be concerned.” Everybody makes decisions that have no bearing on my processes because I understand that they are a part of my being and I can remove them as easily as I do my bib each morning. I'd be concerned if my team began to think of themselves as individuals. That would be like my leg deciding to go across town for a Polish Boy or 4 while I was at home planning. Bright Spots: Mangini said he was happy with the pressure the Browns put on QB Jay Cutler as they sacked him four times.
“I think defensively, there were a lot of things I was happy with,” he said. “We had four sacks and generated pressure and had a goal line stand. The running game was better. I liked where we were with the younger guys when they went in when Eric Barton was hurt.” I am happy with our last place defense because the games mean nothing. Our processes are beginning to glimmer with the promise of full blown strategies. I won't say anything about Ryan, for he has shown himself to be independent and for that there is but one consequence. New Coordinator?: Mangini defended offensive coordinator Brian Daboll, but did say that QB coach Carl Smith might be more involved.
“No (about replacing Daboll),” Mangini said. “I think there are things we can improve offensively. Carl Smith has a lot of experience and can give some insight from experience, but that goes hand in hand with execution.” However, I will say something of Brian the Lion. He is definitely part of the process. He and I are one mind and one spirit and he will do as I ask of him no matter the outcome. Because it's not about outcome. Carl Smith is a candidate to sit upon my left in my glory. And within my hands, they will both know the meaning of execution. Mangini was asked why he had a first-year offensive coordinator.
“I have known Brian for a long time,” he said. “In the systems he’s worked in New York and New England and Carl is a good complement to that.” I've known Brian and have been known by Brian for what humans would consider a long time. Almost six whole years. And I have known him not as a person - but as a part of the systems of The Glorious One and myself. Carl may join him within those systems, for it is within the systems that we can become one with Lord Belichick, enjoy the fruit of our processes and planning. 
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 11/03/09 11:36 AM.
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