DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns: Where They Are At & What They Should Do

It's that time of year.......people are drawing lines in the sand. I understand that and am not discrediting anyone. I do think many of us get overzealous in defending which route we want the Browns to take, however.

I am going to try and be objective as I can and try and add some reason to our discussions. Not that anyone will buy into it, but I will feel better.


I think it is an oversimplification to say that any one area is the way to go. Truth is, you need to have a strong team to win it all. And at this point, I think the goal should be to build a contending team that has the ability to win it all.

Peen says that anything less than a Super Bowl win is a failed season. It appears many people agree w/that position. I think the goal should be to build a team that can be a legitmate playoff contender and then add guys to put you over the hump and hope that luck is w/you. In short.....build a team that is a legitimate playoff team and one that can sustain it for at least a few years.

Some thougths on how to do this:

---You never pass on a franchise QB if he is available...that is...if you don't already have one.

---Never pass on a franchise LT if the opportunity presents itself.

---Choose the right coaches and give them time to not only implement their system, but also develop it.

---Build a defensive line that can control the LOS by themselves.

---Acquire LBers who are active and can make plays when freed up.

---Build a solid, if not spectacular OL that can control the LOS.

---I believe the move should be to acquire two running backs that can get the job done.

---Add the perimeter players only after you have established the other areas that I previously mentioned.

Where are the Browns?

---They don't have a franchise QB.

---They don't have a franchise LT, in fact, they are extremely weak at this position.

---They have fired coaches at an alarming rate.

---Their DL is not very good, and what's worse..........they are old.

---They have some LBers that can be good enough, but still need to upgrade.

---Their OL is not close to being solid, in fact, they are putrid.

---They don't have one RB, nevermind two.

---They have decided to bring in perimeter players before the more important positions.


What should the Browns do to fix their team?

---If Quinn is available and they think he is indeed a franchise QB, they gotta take him.

---If Thomas is available and they deem him to be a franchise LT and Quinn isn't a franchise QB, they must take him. I gotta add that I think it is harder to acquire a good LT than it is a QB who is good enough you can win with.

Note: This is a tough decison for the Browns, but they have a shot at being in a position to either draft Quinn or Thomas.

---Stick w/the coaches they have. Quit succumbing to public pressure and looking for the easy way out. Get them the talent and give them a fair shot.

---Draft DL in rds. 3 or 4 and look to improve that unit through free agency. Keep drafting them in subsequent years. You need plenty of d-linemen to plug into the rotation.

---Might have to pass on LBers for at least a year, maybe two. Maybe get one through FA.

---As of right now, they can add quality running backs after rd. 1. There are plenty of quality running backs.

---Draft OL on day one every year. It doesn't always have to be in rd. 1, but develpp a philosophy of winning up front.

---Add more perimeter players after you have built the foundation.

Bottom line:
Don't look for the quick fix. The Browns are bad. Real bad. Mistakes have been made, but trying to fix those mistakes in a year only compounds the problem. Build your program like you will be there forever.

What I would do:

---Draft Thomas in rd. 1. If he's gone, draft Quinn. If both are gone...trade down.

---Go w/the best availabe at either DL, RB, OG in rds. 2-4.

---Draft BPA regardless of position in rds. 5-7.

---Use free agency sparingly. Bring in players who are not elite, but can contribute. It's hard getting quality OL in FA. They cost too much. GM's are a smart bunch and they don't let many good ones go. Wait until the team has becomes a legit playoff team before you go after big time free agents at positions that can put you over the top.

That's my take..........and I am sticking to it. Blast away.

Aside from a few minor differences btw the players we should consider at 3/4, this is a pretty solid evaluation...

Verse.. GREAT post... I differ SLIGHTLY here though..

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---Draft Thomas in rd. 1. If he's gone, draft Quinn. If both are gone...trade down.

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In that order, I agree except for the trade down... Finding the dance partner is the hardest part and I wouldn't be opposed to seeing Adrian Peterson being option 3 given Thomas/Quinn are gone...

IF we can find the trade partner, I could see us chasing something between 6-10 and targeting either Branch or best Available CB.. Only reason I say that route is because that will mean with our extra 2nd that we should be able to garner, we could snag an OG and a Michael Pittman in Rd. 2... He is no Adrian Peterson (not even close) but is better than what we have now...

JMHO

I think we need to give Jerome Harrison more carries, comparing him to Joseph Addai its pretty evident that they are very similar.

We just need some consistent play from the OL to provide him a better opportunity for him to prove me right on this one.

I like our LB's, our SS and FS. Could use another CB though we still haven't seen what Demario Minter is all about.

Definitely need help in the DL trenches. All our guys are OLD. Need some new blood, but I'm excited to see if Orien or Baba will make any improvement over the offseason necessary for them to see the field.

At TE and WR we are pretty well set. QB will be determined once we can keep him upright consistently. Right now I'm not going to judge him.

As for coaching staff---well, we've got some new blood, I don't know how that will work out until the season starts.

But again, comparing the profiles of Addai and Harrison, there are a lot of similarities, including Blocking ability which many have criticized JH for.

Given a line and better offensive play calling, I think JH could see similar success.

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You never pass on a franchise QB if he is available...that is...if you don't already have one.

---Never pass on a franchise LT if the opportunity presents itself.

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U forgot to add to the LT scenario "unless u all ready have one" ..

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Their DL is not very good, and what's worse..........they are old.

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some of the sting of them being old goes away when u consider there not very good anyhow .. *L*

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I gotta add that I think it is harder to acquire a good LT than it is a QB who is good enough you can win with.

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No clue why u think that but its CRAZY ... the fricken Bucs won a SB with Roman Oben ... *LOL* ..

damm it .... i hit enter by mistake ... now i can treply to u while i'm in here editing .. *L* ..

Its a good thread Vers ... prolly not gonna generate alot of "chat" as its hard to argue with what u say ... its a GOOD PLAN ..

there is a few things I differ with u on .. so i wil have to go re-reply and start from where i left off here ..

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In that order, I agree except for the trade down... Finding the dance partner is the hardest part and I wouldn't be opposed to seeing Adrian Peterson being option 3 given Thomas/Quinn are gone...

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I agree that it isn't always easy to trade down, but you gotta admit, there will be some very good players available at # 3 or 4. That should help us.

And while I like Peterson, I want no part of him this year. This is the year we really need to concentrate on the trenches.........first and foremost. Anything else, and I feel we will have failed. Not asking you or anyone to agree, but I feel very strongly about this. Of course, I always do.

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I think we need to give Jerome Harrison more carries, comparing him to Joseph Addai its pretty evident that they are very similar.

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I agree w/you on needing the good OL, but I think Addai is way stronger than Harrison. In fact, I don't think it's close.

I'm not gonna bother with the coaches .. just suffice it to say we kept RAC and so the overall philosophies dotm change and thats way more IMPORTANT to continiuty than the position coaches ...

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What I would do: Draft Thomas in rd. 1. If he's gone, draft Quinn. If both are gone...trade down.

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u got it backwords .. *L* ... and if Calvins there and these two are gone .. U take him ,... u can't pass on TALENT lie he has just because hes a "perimiter" player .. u strike while the IRONS HOT ..


thats about it .. Nice thread ....

Gotta give you props for this post. I agree with most of it.

If Thomas and Quinn are both there, I don't envy the position Savage would be in. I'd be thrilled with either pick, personally. I'm leaning closer towards QB though, and I'm of the belief that one of them will be gone by the time we pick, thus making it a moot point as whether or not we should take Thomas or Quinn. If both are gone, you damn well bet I want a trade down. As much as I like Calvin Johnson, it's probably the last choice we should make given the state of our team. I don't like Peterson either for the reason you stated, quality backs are still found in later rounds. Plus, I think any decent stiff can run for 1,200 yards behind a good line.

If Thomas is our pick then I still think we need to go QB in round two depending on who falls, who doesn't and who's ranked on our board. If a QB isn't on our radar at that point, let's go DL. Building the DL is essential for helping build this defense.

As far as FA goes, I think you'll see us be somewhat responsible. We'll have one or two ball busting contracts, but that will be the nature of this year's FA market, where there's not much quality but there's a TON of money out there. It'll be similar to MLB this past offseason.

Bottom line...

1) If a QB we feel can be a franchise guy is there, TAKE HIM.
2) If he's not, Thomas should be there, TAKE HIM.
3) If both are gone, TRADE DOWN. If we don't trade down far I'm pretty intrigued with Gaines Adams, assuming he can play OLB. But that's a radical pick based on a philosophy that if we can have one strength of our D (pass rush) it'll tremendously help our overall D rather than be average in run D and pass rush.

Bottom line in this draft: If we can get a franchise QB, get him, and BUILD THE TRENCHES.

And to Tyler Derden, I'd like to see Harrison get more carries too. He never got enough during the season to get a real look, but I was impressed a lot of the time. He had some good agility.

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U forgot to add to the LT scenario "unless u all ready have one" ..

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LOL.......figures you would pick up on that. I was going to type it, but incorrectly assumed most would know I felt that way, since I had stated it about the quarterbacks.

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I gotta add that I think it is harder to acquire a good LT than it is a QB who is good enough you can win with.


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No clue why u think that but its CRAZY ... the fricken Bucs won a SB with Roman Oben ... *LOL*

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Remember.........I said the primary goal is to get a team that is a legit playoff team first. It ain't all about the Super Bowl, at least in my eyes.

Secondly, how many quality left tackles change teams? Good quarterbacks do become available in FA and some like Brady, Hassleback, etc can be found later in the draft. Hell, guys like McNair, Brees, Bledsoe, Hassleback, Green, etc have changed teams. Not all are great, but good enough to win with. I just don't see any good left tackles change teams...other than Tait, but that can be explained by KC getting Roaf. Do you ever see good LTs changing teams?

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Its a good thread Vers ... prolly not gonna generate alot of "chat" as its hard to argue with what u say ... its a GOOD PLAN ..

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Thanks. I hope it does generate some chat. I typically don't start threads. Look around...........this is my only thread that is up on the board. I feel pretty strongly on where the Browns are at and what they should do. I ain't saying I am totally right, but I would be interested in what people have to say, as long as my overall message doesn't get lost in the details.

1st regarding the how to do part. Overall right on. Not sure 2 Rb's are necessary. Nice to have but if you have one good one and a solid backup you will be fine. And as far as o-line goes, I would have used the term good or above average rather than solid but that is probably just semantics. I am sure we mean the same thing.

Re: Where are the Browns - exactly right on

Re: I like the plan. I don't know that I would be so dogmatic in saying draft an o-lineman day one every year. Sometimes it is just a bad o-line draft. But the idea to develop a philosophy of winning up front is a must. This is what all winning teams have and all losing teams don't have. This applies to both sides of the upfront battle.

Re: what you would do. I agree with the philosophy. This however is where we (as a message board) tend to argue. This is based on player evaluations. Is Thomas a franchise LT? Some say yes, some say no. Is Quinn a franchise Qb? Some say yes, some say no. Me? I don't know. PS and his crew will evaluate these players in more depth than I could ever hope to find the time to do. If one is a franchise player and the other isn't we better make the right choice or we will be paying for it for years to come. If both are franchise players then we can't go wrong taking either of them. Problem is we won't know which if either of these guys is a franchise player for several more years. Unfortunately we won't have that info by the time we draft in April. Hope fully our educated guess is right.

All in all good take and excellent post.

If Calvin's there and we don't trade down we are stupid. We have invested over and over with the WR position, and even can't miss guys like Calvin (BE ring a bell......BP in the draft...bla bla bla). I would take Peterson over Calvin, because although not as highly rated as BPA he makes this team a hell of alot better than Johnson would. Your dead wrong here bro, but fortunatly it doesn't matter, because we are going to win that flip and get Thomas or BQ....hehehe. Vers is right in the fact that the BIGGEST reason we have yet to feild a truly competitive team is linked very closely to the neglect by EVERY Brown's FO to address the trenches in the draft successfully (heck Botch tried.......just not successfully...lol). We've been drafting BPA skill guys since 99 and it's gotten us nowhere...........some becasue we drafted badly, but alot of it has to do with the fact that WR just doesn't have that big of an impact on a game and can be taken away way too easily. Heck imo Marvin Harrison is the best WR since Jerry Rice in his prime, but he has been taken away all post season. You draft a true difference maker to build your O around that can't be taken away without opening up another aspect to the O...................a WR is just taken out of the game way too easily, and isn't worth the investment of a top 5 pick.

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I just don't see any good left tackles change teams...other than Tait, but that can be explained by KC getting Roaf. Do you ever see good LTs changing teams?

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how did KC get Roaf???? *LOL* ... just breakin your chops bro .. NO .. good LT's dont ever move unless therirs a real wierd situation like with Willie or getting old in the tooth and aretn' that good anymore ... and Tait aint a good LT .. is;nt he playing Rt still or did they move him back to LT?? but he aitn that good anyhow IMO ...

u can get a good LT up to the middle of rnd 2 ... thats where Marvel smith and matt Lyght went ... u gotta draft them ... but they can be had ..

I generally break the team down into units, as most good teams do something very well:

Run offense
Pass offense
Run defense
Pass defense

On this Browns team, we have weaknesses on every one of the above units.

Given my druthers about how to build a team for the North Coast, I would concentrate on the running game and stopping the run. It just seems more appropriate given the likely weather conditions for Cleveland in November and December.

If this is the case, then we should look at interior OL and all DL positions before all else. Somehow these positions must be built in order to assist in running the ball and stopping the ball as the 1st order of business. While a solid interior line would definitely assist in running the ball, we must also have a sure handed and strong big back.

This team has seemed to throw parts together, hoping that we could somehow do it all with one off-season. This approach has failed miserably in past years. The Browns brain trust must decide what type of team they want to be, and build accordingly.

As far as a "franchise" QB, if the team can run the ball, and forces the opposition to play up to try and stop the run, all that is required of the QB is good vision, understanding, and an arm capable of hitting the openings in the defense which stand ready to exploit.

Good thread. I truy do believe that the Browns haven't decided who they want to be. Savage has professed a philosophy of having a QB who is "good enough, but who doesn't have to carry the team", yet we invest in the elements of a passing game. This makes no sense to me. I truly wish I could ask Savage why he would "build" in this fashion.

I was reluctant to throw Tait in there, but I was covering my ass.

Yeah, Chicago switched him back to LT. Remember when they tried the big fat guy we had...Quasim Mitchell or something like that...at LT? LOL.......their QBs got killed that year.

I think you're way off base. We should fire coaches and draft WR's every year.

Actually, this year I wanna see us draft OL and DL with every other pick.
I'm sick of being crappy up front.

People want to jump the gun on Quinn. OK, I see why. he COULD be a franchise QB. But we still have 3 young QB's and atleast two of them have the talent to be a starter, Preferably I want Anderson.

This would be a solid Offense. If we draft Adrian Peterson.

QB - Anderson ( with his Michael Vick scrambling skills )
RB - Droughns/Peterson ( 2 RB system)
FB - Smith/ Vickers ( Training Camp/Preseason battle)
WR1 - JJ
WR2 - Edwards
TE - K2
LT - Shaffer
LG - Andruzzi ( Unless we find FA help)
C - Bentley/Fraley ( WE NEED BENTLEY)
RG - Fraley/Coleman
RT - Tucker/Butler

that's my offense I want in 2007

Not having thoroughly read the other replies, Vers, I'll say that I really like what you had to say. The only place I'd differ with you would be at RB. I'm not saying the RBs we have are great. However, I think they are at least adequate for right now. Our biggest concern should be OL and DL. As a lot of other posts have mentioned, being good in the trenches really makes a difference.

Droughns, Wright and Harrison are good enough for now, IMO. I don't agree with drafting Peterson in the first round as some other posters have advocated. There are good RBs in every draft, and you can score a real good one in the 2nd round, IMO. And, once again, we have bigger problems right now than RB.

As to QB, it would be very tough to pass on Quinn if he was there, but if it was me, I would probably do it (barring something happening between now and the draft) because I don't think you need a stellar QB to go far. Now, would it help to have a stud QB? Hell yes. However, I just think that if you have an average to above-average QB who takes care of the ball, you can go very far. We all saw an average QB who can't take care of the ball last night in Grossman. I'm not convinced Frye and/or Anderson are the answer for us, but I'm not completely against them, either. Once again, build an OL and a solid DL and see where that gets us.

Other than that, I agree with you.

Hard to argue with anything you've said. But I'll try....

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If Quinn is available and they think he is indeed a franchise QB, they gotta take him.

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Therein lies the rub. Is he the QB that makes you forget our woeful showing behind center for the better part of 8 years or is he just a slight upgrade over Charlie Frye? Will Phil cut the legs out from under one of his own draft picks for Brady Quinn or will he let the QB situation ride out over the next 12 months? I tend to think he'll stick with Charlie but that is only a hunch.

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Stick w/the coaches they have. Quit succumbing to public pressure and looking for the easy way out. Get them the talent and give them a fair shot.

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I agree. But other than Mo's departure I don't think any of this year's departures were forced by the public's hue and cry. And frankly, Mo's departure doesn't bring me to tears. I think Chud will be a good addition to the team. The others.......I honestly don't know but I'm interested to see what they'll bring to the table.

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Draft OL on day one every year. It doesn't always have to be in rd. 1, but develpp a philosophy of winning up front.

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You should send that one to Phil in an email every day from now until April 25th or whenever the draft is.

I agree with a lot of what you say...Not passing on a Franchise LT...Not passing on a franchise QB...etc. My question is in the evaluation...Is Thomas a Franchise LT ? IMO, Yes...

Is Quinn a Franchise QB ? IMO, No. That's where I have my problems with this draft. I don't believe there is a Franchise QB in the draft. Are there some good QBs ? Yes. If Leinart, Young, or Cutler would have been in this years draft, with Quinn and Russell, who would have been considered the Franchise QBs ? IMO...Leinart, Young and Cutler...

There is a difference between being a top 5 pick in this years draft and being a franchise QB. That's why I want Thomas, Branch or Peterson. Thomas fills the LT void... Branch goes to the "Build a D Line need... Peterson goes to the BPA... if Thomas and Branch are gone....

I would go Thomas in round 1.... DL Tank Tyler, Marcus Thomas, or Justin Harrell in round 2... RB Dwayne Wright, Lorenzo Booker, Antonio Pittman, or Tony Hunt in Round 3

First and foremost- I appreciate a the fact that you made a good thought provoking, non-bashing thread.

Now I'm going to inject my two cents:

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I think the goal should be to build a team that can be a legitmate playoff contender and then add guys to put you over the hump and hope that luck is w/you. In short.....build a team that is a legitimate playoff team and one that can sustain it for at least a few years.

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I agree with you that we need to BUILD the team. Building does take time. We actually are putting some of the pieces in place (ie... Winslow, Edwards, Wimbley, DQ, Williams, Bodden, Bentley, Jones, Davis, Cribbs, even Zastadil) This year we will add more pieces through the draft and Free Agency.
A team that gets to the playoffs frequently grows and learns from the experience and are more apt to win it all than a team that gets there every once in awhile.

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---Choose the right coaches and give them time to not only implement their system, but also develop it.

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At the time Crennel was the hottest name out there. He was a defensive "Genius". He has only been here 2 years and people want him gone. The man needs time. I don't recall any coaching changes on the defensive side of the ball.
At the time we had to wait until after the Super Bowl was over to get him and that didn't allow us alot of choices in coaches. It appears that Crennel and Savage have agreed that a change of the offensive coaches was necessary and they tried to do it while there were coached available. I personally don't think that the coaches they got were their first choices, but they all can coach at this level. I think Chud will surprise alot of people this year with his style.

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---Acquire LBers who are active and can make plays when freed up.

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---They have some LBers that can be good enough, but still need to upgrade.

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I think we have a solid corp of linebackers. Wimbley, DQ, Davis, Williams. Young and solid- will only get better. I think when the Dline improves so will the play of the linebackers. Look at Ray Lewis in 2005. He had a down year and was the first to admit that he was being taken out of plays by linemen. As soon as they got Nata(sp?) he had a better year. Alot of people want to get rid of Davis, but he consistantly produces 100+ tackles every year. People talk about him making the tackles 5 yards down the field, but the whole line of scrimmage is moving for the first three.

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---Use free agency sparingly. Bring in players who are not elite, but can contribute. It's hard getting quality OL in FA. They cost too much.

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An elite left tackle does make alot of money, but if we won't pay them someone else will. There are a couple of real good left tackles that will test the free agent market and get paid. We might as well get our guy while we can.
There aren't going to be that good of players at QB or RB to hit the free agent market. Spend our money on an elite tackle and an elite CB in free agency and us a QB or RB in the first. Guard or RB in the second. BPA based on need throught the rest of the draft.
Again just my two cents worth.

Peen's on some Ricky Booby ish.

"If ya ain't first yer last."

I don't see how anybody could think that Leinart or Young are better QBs than Brady Quinn.. Matt has a noodle arm and can't make all the throws.............he will die against a cover 2 every day of the week, becuase he can't get enough zip on the ball to get it in there..........doesn't have NEAR the arm strength that Brady does, and Quinn will be a much better QB. As for Young....lol.......we talking about franchise RBs or QBs...lol. He's a great athlete that can kill you with his legs, but he still hasn't shown that he can beat you with his arm.......pssst pretty important thing to do for a franchise QB wouldn't you think??? He's got horrible mechanics, and despite having a rocket arm has ZERO touch is just about as innacurate as they come............dude will be Mike Vick in 5 years, and the TItans will know they screwed up. If you want to compare any QB to Vince then it would be Russell, because they are just alike...............big arm (although JR's is much bigger), have good mobility ( VInce has GREAT mobility and much better than Russell here), and both are as about as innacuare and inconsistant as they come. If you want to compare any QB to Quinn it would be Cutler (who I think will develop into a very nice QB). Both have great arm strength, tremendous accuracy on most of their throws, can read Ds and make quick decisions (Brady is better at that though) and have some mobility as well. The only reason I would want Quinn over Cutler is the fact that he has played and learned in a Pro Style set for the past 3 years and has been mentored by an offensive genius. He's about as safe as your going to get when it comes to taking a QB.............much safer than Leinart, Young, Russell, and Cutler. My only question about Brady that no one has brought up to my knowledge is how much better can he get???


Oh and Brady isn't my 1st choice Joe Thomas is, but I would be pretty pissed off if we passed on him for anybody other than Joe Thomas.

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Good quarterbacks do become available in FA and some like Brady, Hassleback, etc can be found later in the draft.

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Cheese & Rice...Must I do the "QB Success Rate thang AGAIN"??????????????

GMAFB...U WILL NOT FIND A FRANCHISE QB AFTER ROUND ONE...HIGH ONE...

My god...FORGET the name Tom Brady already people...We're better off going the FA route if we aren't hip on Frye...

U talk Dopie???...I have much better words for em' that I won't say aloud on a board that kids read IF he takes ANY QB BEYOND OUR THREE OR FOUR PICK...

Smith/Stanton/the chump from Houston...They will ALL be #2's in the NFL...

And I just started reading this thread...Needed to pause for that part...Moving on...

j/c:

Some good posts. Good insight. We don't have to agree, but good debate is appreciated. The only one I think is a bit off is BrowniePoints. Dude, that lineup will get everyone fired. LOL

I feel I must clarify something. Most of my initial post centered around on how to build a team. Yeah, it's my opinion, but I tried to be very objective. The last part......where I said.......... What I Would Do was the only part where I tried to inject my views on who we should take. The earlier parts were leaving who to pick up to Savage. LOL......that sounds goofy. I guess I can't explain it adequately.

Oh well.....thanks for the good feedback. Carry on.

P.S. YTown..........I will get back to your post later.

Huh? Dude...............Hassleback, Green, Brees, Losman [not yet, but soon to be], Pennington, Bulger, are all good enough to win with.

Additionally, there are plenty of qbs like McNair, Farve, Hassleback, Garcia, Vinny, Green, Johnson, etc who were acquired as veteran free agents or in low balling trades. It can be done!

And please.............don't just focus on the quarterbacks. This ain't a qb thread. It's about the team. It's about a philosophy on how to build a team. You gotta a better plan..........let's hear it.

Top QBs by ratng for 2006:

Peyton Manning
Damon Huard
Drew Brees
Donovan McNabb
Tony Romo
Carson Palmer
Marc Bulger
Phillip Rivers
Tom Brady
Mark Brunnel


4 1st rounders still with their original team, and the other 6 either later round picks, or free agents picked up by their current team.


Weird factoid: There were 5 QBs taken in the 6th round of the 2000 draft. Our selection, Spurgeon Wynn, was the QB selected after Marc Bulger, and before Tom Brady.

QBs of note selected since 2000, and their original draft position:

2000:
1 18 Chad Pennington
6 168 Marc Bulger
6 199 Tom Brady
7 212 Tim Rattay

2001:
1 1 Michael Vick
2 32 Drew Brees

2002:
1 1 David Carr
1 3 Joey Harrington
1 32 Patrick Ramsey
4 108 David Garrard

2003:
1 1 Carson Palmer
1 7 Byron Leftwich
1 19 Kyle Boller
1 22 Rex Grossman
3 97 Chris Simms

2004:
1 1 Eli Manning
1 4 Philip Rivers
1 11 Ben Roethlisberger
1 22 J.P. Losman
3 90 Matt Schaub

2005:
1 1 Alex Smith
1 24 Aaron Rodgers
1 25 Jason Campbell
3 67 Charlie Frye
6 213 Derek Anderson

I think that the higher draft picks get more time than those selected later. It's much harder to say "we gotta replace this guy" about a guy with millions invested in him than to do the same about an inexpensive 3rd round or later pick. I don't know that there's asome huge difference ... at least as represented over the past 6 years, comparing averages to averages.

The Love is killin' me...lmao...

First and foremost is the choice of a Franchise QB versus a Franchise LT...And there are ONE OF EACH available this year folks...Who do we take???

Frye vs Quinn
Shaffer vs Thomas

Sorry DIAM...I TAKE THOMAS ALL DAY LONG...Not cause he's a LT...Cause he's a BOSELLI TYPE LT...U always say LT's never hit the market....TRUE...SO U TAKE ONE WHEN U DON'T HAVE ONE...

Our line is hurtin' a helluva lot worse than our QB situation at this time...

How many teams in the NFL have a True Franchise QB???...And I don't even wanna hear that Wanna Be QB Vick's name...

Brady
Palmer
Roth
Mcscab
Manning

Who won Bowls with DEFENSE???

Brady
Roth

GIMMEE THOMAS!!!!!!!

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And please.............don't just focus on the quarterbacks. This ain't a qb thread. It's about the team. It's about a philosophy on how to build a team. You gotta a better plan..........let's hear it.

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A Plan???...U betcha...And it's cap friendly...

I'll get to it tomorrow...

That is one good post Vers.

I'm trying to find something to disagree with or at least add input that would garner a discussion but it's not an easy task.

I'll try this...

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Where are the Browns?...

... ---They don't have one RB, nevermind two.

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I still think RD can carry the rock. He is one of the hardest hitting RB's I've seen. Not a 500lb Jerome Bettis, rather a smash mouth runner looking to punish the tackler. He has impressed me with being the toughest player on the team.

I know he's a bit slow to hit the hole but he's a downhill runner I believe. I really think what happened to him this past season, (and I don't agree with Savage that he didn't get enough carries in the preseason), is that he was hurt a good part of the year.

He looked to me like his shoulder bothered him for most of the year.

Let's not forget that the guy who hit him in the shoulder broke his neck! I think that was Ruben laying the wood to a would-be tackler as he often does. He never hit as hard as his usual self after that.

In addition, just as the shoulder was beginning to be its old self he hurt his foot/ankle. That just slowed him all the more. And I think the shoulder flared up again later. It just looked like that to me.

He does fumble too much for my liking. But with an improved O-line, meaning there's a real hole to run through once in a while, and an offseason to heal, I believe he can be the 1200 yard guy again.

I'd like to see us pair him with a Harrison-type. Maybe even Harrison himself. He has some serious moves and was just a rookie this past season behind a bad line.

I think we are alright at RB.

So there.


Regarding Quinn/Thomas...

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Note: This is a tough decison for the Browns, but they have a shot at being in a position to either draft Quinn or Thomas.

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It may come down to the ability of Phil Savage to evaluate talent. If both are available to him I wouldn't want to be in his shoes. At that point he has to be right in his evaluation of both of these guys.

Personally, I think the LT would make the biggest difference as it would add one piece to the line. That could move Shaffer to RT and have 2/5 of the line somewhat set. If we keep Hank, and I hope we can, either he or LeCharles would help have 3/5 of the line covered. Hank's not gonna play guard.

That would leave us needing 2 guards. One FA and one pick, (be he here already or newly aquired). If Tucker comes back they would be in even better shape. Some say Tucker could play guard. I don't know how that works. Does his skill set transfer to RG?

However, if Savage determines Quinn is indeed a franchise QB he has to pull the trigger on him. Let him set a year ala Palmer. He would gain a year of learning, another FA period, another draft, a further improved O-line and another year's experience for the rest of the offense before he steps in. Then in '08, ala Palmer, he should stink it up for 8 or 9 games until the light comes on. That should set '09 as a very possible playoff season. The 5-year plan.

I don't see it happening before that no matter what route we take. But if we were a playoff team in '09 I would be happy with that. Happy, that is, if it's because we have been building in a manor that would have us contending in '10-'11 and beyond.



All-in-all Vers, this is a great thread. Your take is nearly impossible to argue with. It sounds like a very logical way to build the team from where it stands right now into a contender built for the long haul. So long as the basic premise is followed through in subsiquent years we could be enjoying great football for a long time.

Now...what will Savage and RAC actually do?

I think that we should be able to take away something from what other sucessful teams have been doing.

There is little doubt to me that the most important aspect of building a team is associated with the draft. In order to be sucessful a team has to have its first and second round draft choices become productive starters. The Browns measure of sucess with respect to drafting is terrible. Most of the 1st and second rounders before 2004 are no longer with the team. That is a clear indication as to how pathetic the player selection was.

The Browns have fallen to the curse of the high draft choice. The money due to a high first rounder is disproportionate to their real value. Couch, Brown, Warren and Edwards set a team back if they don't pan out. The reality is there is value in trading down.

Building a line is always a good idea, If Warren and Brown had turned out to be the claiber of Seymor and Peppers we would not be in the position that we are. I can't really disagree with building the OL. At this point in time every casual fan understands that one of the reasons the Browns are having problem is the OL. Never addressed, or only addressed through FA.

Vers, like your logic and rational. And all I would like to add to your thread at this time is....if anyone wants a "model" of your plan they just have to look back to some of the Paul Brown teams and see their structure. The answer is right there. JMHO

Good post Vers.

Really nice post Vers... only thing I really disagree with is the trade down part if Thomas and Quinn are both gone... unless we get someone who is giving us their house I personally want whatever the BPA is at #3... this team needs play-markers which you should (should mind you) be able to get that high in the draft. Even if we took Johnson I wouldn't be overly upset...

If we take Johnson then Savage will appear that much more like Matt Millen. We need OL DL before another WR.

ddubia - I hope you are right about RD. I hope this year was ruined for because of injuries and not lack of drive post contract signing.

Re: O-line. If we draft Thomas, move Shaffer to RT, resign Fraley and Bentley comes back then that is 4/5 of our line (Fraley at center, Bentley at OG - remember he was a pro bowl OG). That leaves Either Sowells, Matua, a FA or a draft pick. I am one of those who believes Tucker can play RG but I think even if he comes back he only has 1-2 years left in the tank.

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Is he the QB that makes you forget our woeful showing behind center for the better part of 8 years or is he just a slight upgrade over Charlie Frye? Will Phil cut the legs out from under one of his own draft picks for Brady Quinn or will he let the QB situation ride out over the next 12 months? I tend to think he'll stick with Charlie but that is only a hunch.

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There is only one thing worse than making a mistake.. That would be making a second mistake because you didn't want to admit the first one.

If Phil comes to the conclusion that Quinn is the guy,, THE Franchise guy, and he doesn't pick him if he's there just because he doesn't want it to indicate that maybe charlie wasn't the right guy, then he's not nearly as bright as I've given him credit for being...

Don't read anything into this comment... I still am hopeful that Charlie can improve with a better line and perhaps a game plan suited to his skills..

just clicking,

Vers I think you are pretty much on with your initial post...I mean of course we are going to differ here and there but they are minor and not worth mentioning.

The problem I see with our QB situation is that the only solution to it was to never have drafted Charlie Frye in the first place....lol...and we know that isn't possible...because if we do bring in a Brady Quinn or a Jamarcus Russell or even a Troy Smith or Drew Stanton...we need to get another QB that can play while they sit for a year or 2. and that cannot be Charlie. One of the problems with Charlie is that in some ways he is a tease...He is a GREAT kid and a hard worker...He will always give you that one play, or give that little bit of extra effort that makes you want to give him more time...but the problem is that it will always be like that. You give him one year...then you want to give him another year. And then you want to give him another year..and another and eventually it is 4 years you have gotten nowhere.

But you know what is crazy...as much as I dislike our QB situation...I am not 100% sold on taking QB with our first pick....Thomas makes it a tough call. I agree on either taking one or the other...if only one is there then it is an easy pick...lol...I just don't know at this point which I would choose if I had both to choose from...lol

YTown mention the 4 things he would focus on...in some ways I kind of agree with it....

IF I were to focus in that manner I woud focus on Run Offense first And then Run Defense second. Because The Run O can take alot of pressure off of the entire Defense. One of our biggest problems has been that our D is on the field way too long...Partly because they haven't stopped anyone...lol...but alot of it can also be contributed to being on the field for 3 out of 4 quarters of the game. And you can have the best Defense in the league...but if you are on the field for 3 quarters...most teams will start to beat you. Our defense is not that horrific...if the offense can stay on the field for more than 3 plays each time out...They might look a bit better...stop the run they look even better....stop the pass we are now playoff contenders....pass the ball and now we are Super Bowl Contenders....

I really don't think you can build in that manner, I think the process would take too long...by the time you have the 3rd step in place the 1st might start showing their ages...lol...But it was fun discussing...

Like Diam I am not overly worried about the Coaching turnover...except when it comes to the HC and the top 2 coordinators...I don't like that we are bringing in an inexperienced OC...I would have preferred someone who actually has his own offense and has some exprerience calling plays and making adjustments. Heck I would have prefferred Chris Palmer(not that it could have happened). (note: I mean Palmer over Chudzinski...)

Anyway enjoyed your post...maybe there is a happy medium between what you said and what YTown said...LOL