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Since Randy Lerner is going to evaluate the system, and has already "fired" Kokinis...i think Mangini is the name that has to be evaluated next...
but what has to be looked at most are the positives and negatives at keeping and firing him...
first lets look at the positives of keeping him...
1. He gets to continue to build his team his way.
2. We get to see his plan
3. We get to see what he'll do with his next offseason (11 draft picks and FA)
4. His teams are very disciplined
5. the defense...while the numbers are down, has showed SOME progress...
...is that bad? thats all ive got.
the negatives of keeping him...
1. We may not be able to sign a single quality free agent. really...who wants to come here...especially now? he's now thrown his hand-picked GM under the bus, and he jettisoned his two biggest playmakers because they werent his guys and werent necessarily willing to buy int his system or follow his rules. Who wants to come here? its almost like moving to communist Russia over a normal country...hmmmm?
2. We dont get a new chance to build the organization the right way. From the top down. Coach isnt the top nor should he be the top.
3. Maybe we made a mistake...another year of this and we may make the Lions and Rams look like solid teams and organizations...at least theyre heading in the right direction now with their coaches. So are the Chiefs.
4. We become the Raiders East
...i dont have a big list...but boy all of those potential negatives are very very big.
lets consider if we fire him.
positives:
1. We can rebuild the organization the right way.
2. it cant get worse can it? Mangini has made Cam Cameron look like a good head coach
3. there are a lot of names we can look at to become head coach. this years coaching free agency is looking like what the NBAs 2010 free agency class is.
4. If we start from the top down...it may look like we're doing things correctly and a number of people may want to join in the rebuilding process.
5. No more Mangini...no more 1,701 dollar fines for 3 dollar waters...
6. Reign of Terror will have ended.
7. Signal that Randy Lerner has heard the fans, sees that we still support Cleveland by going to the games...but that we dislike whats going on. We've been heard, and Lerner can finally become the owner he wants to be...its a chance for him to show the world that hes willing to do what it takes...and the right way...to bring a winner to Cleveland
negatives of firing him.
1. ANOTHER REBUILD....UGH
2. admittance of a mistake...
3. spending money on ANOTHER coach that isnt here. brutal to Lerner's pocket
4. another year away from a winner.
This isnt a complete comprehensive list...but does anyone else see...that the positives of firing him, and the negatives of keeping him...FAR outweigh the positives of keeping him and negatives of firing him.
Another rebuild? ok, we're getting used to it...but at this point, any positive, or any reason to look favorably upon the organization is good...as Tim Robbins said in Shawshank..Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things...would we really have any heading into the offseason with Mangini? Season ticket sales would plummet and that would hurt his wallet more than paying Mangini the rest of his salary.
This fan base is looking for something positive, and a new president/gm/coach would provide us with some hope.
Looking at it from Lerner's prospective...it really makes more sense for Eric Mangini to not be here next year. Whether he can be a good coach here or not...doesnt much matter...his coaching abilities arent worth the negativity this organization will be shown in.
I think this might be a situation where Randy Lerner should make a move...let Rob Ryan audition for a head coaching job next year...and go from there. Cut your losses Randy and go about this thing the right way next time.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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I don't see the rebuilding again as too much of a factor as we are still pretty much at the ground level with Mangini.
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I am very, very hesitant at firing a coach after 1 year.....or after 8 games, which is basically what is happening even if it's not official until the end of the year.
no matter what we do, I think Mangini should finish out the season....we should retain Rob Ryan and Seeley in their current positions and I think a bunch of the defensive assistants should stay.
I think the entire offensive coaching staff has dug their grave and will be gone. It's Mangini's own fault for having so many inexperienced guys on that side of the ball in the first place (his weak spot to start with).
Whether Mangini goes with them or not might just depend on the GM we put in place and their direction for the future. Along with if Mangini is willing to bow to them on personnel decisions (mangini gives the ingredients he needs....GM shops for them).
and we already are the Raiders East...or North....whatever. Sad state we are in. The good thing is that we can potentially pull ourselves out of it while Oakland is stuck with what they are for the forseeable future.
#gmstrong
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I would not say we will have to start another rebuild next season if we get a new head coach. We are attempting to rebuild now and that would continue into next year whether we keep the coach or change the coach. Some of this years picks will probably not make next year's team.
Our quality talent level is so low, It will take several years to get a good starting team for both the offense and the defense. Adding satisfactory backups will add even more time.
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Just throwing a negative in for firing him...
What if you fire him...and none of those big names that you want, like Cowher, Shanahan, etc, etc...don't want the job???? We have had plenty of "Thanks but No Thanks" already.....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Legend
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There are no negatives in firing Mangini. Okay, maybe one negative. Lerner would have to pay him. That's it. Anyway, here's an article: Quote:
QUOTE: “People...especially people in positions of power...have invested a tremendous amount of effort and time to get to where they are. They really don't want to hear that we're on the wrong path, that we've got to shift gears and start thinking differently.” -- David Suzuki
I feel badly for George Kokinis, who is out as general manager of the Browns. Moving to Cleveland proved to be a great financial move for him, but a poor professional one in aligning himself with “The Secret.”
Head coach Eric “The Secret” Mangini has been running this team from the minute he secluded himself in his office after his initial press conference, refusing to talk to anyone or even say a passing hello in the halls. George never had a chance to be successful — and maybe he wasn’t the most qualified person for the position -- but he never had a chance in Cleveland with “The Secret.” He was never able to gain the respect of the employees in the company because it’s difficult to lead people when there’s a refusal to communicate.
Since Mangini values secrets more than anything else, there were times that Kokinis was left in the dark. He was not involved in the Braylon Edwards trade, for instance, because at that point the Kokinis era was already over. Since the beginning of the season, it has been the worst kept secret (kind of ironic, right?) that Kokinis was going to be gone. He wasn’t happy in Cleveland from the beginning, working for his good friend “The Secret,” and the Browns were not happy with his work. This hiring was flawed from the start.
If you’re a Browns fan, this move has to make you feel that owner Randy Lerner is aware he might have made a mistake. But with Lerner, you never know what he might be thinking or, more important, who may have his ear. And having his ear, and who is whispering information into that ear, is the most critical element right now for every Browns fan.
My fundamental question is: How did Mangini convince Lerner, based on his tapestry of work while at the New York Jets, that he was the right man for the job? Was it that cameo on “The Sopranos” that made him so alluring? Look, I’m all for the Sopranos, but I’d rather have Uncle Junior coaching the team than Mangini.
“The Secret,” for all his lack of communication skills, apparently can sell himself. He sold the Jets and his good friend, general manager Mike Tannenbaum, on the fact he was a bright young coordinator and a budding star when the reality was, at the time, Mangini was removed from his defensive coordinator responsibilities while he was in New England.
The Patriots under Mangini in 2005 gave up too many big plays down the field and were so poorly synchronized that head coach Bill Belichick was forced to take over the defense in mid-stream. Every time Mangini was given more responsibility in New England, he was not successful. Conversely, every time Josh McDaniels’ role was increased, he kept getting more and more successful. However, in spite of Mangini’s bad year, he was rewarded with a head coaching job based on Tannenbaum’s recommendation. Now, is that being lucky? (And the Browns never considered McDaniels for the job, so clearly, the advice and counsel around Lerner is not of the highest professional football quality.)
Lerner has had six months to watch the decisions and recommendations of “The Secret,” and here’s what he’s seen:
1. A collection of former Jets players who are marginal starters for the team and probably will not be a part of the eventual rebuilding.
2. A poor evaluation of his own quarterback situation, to the point where the team held the fifth pick in the draft and gave the Jets a quarterback who might have saved their franchise. When you pick high, you have a chance to repair your team at the most critical positions.
3. A recommendation by Mangini that Kokinis be his general manager and that Erin O’Brien be employed somewhere in the organization — after everyone at the Jets warned the Browns not to allow Mangini to make that move. O’Brien is the Manginis’ former babysitter and a friend of his wife Julie. Both Kokinis and O’Brien are now gone.
4. A coach who has demonstrated no ability to communicate with the fans to let them know there’s actually a plan in place to repair this sacred franchise. He’s the team spokesman, but the problem is that he doesn’t speak.
5. An offense so abysmal that it shows no hope of ever scoring.
Is this enough to make you want to be patient? I wrote this Monday and believe that Lerner must make a move, but he must make sure he knows whom to listen to as well. He needs to evaluate the evaluator, because although he may be getting a ton of advice, he needs to make sure he’s getting the right advice.
National Football Post
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also, regardless of what anyone thinks of Mangini/Kokinis and everything that has happened....
we do have 11 picks in what seems to be the deepest draft in recent memory (if all the juniors declare as many believe they will with a new CBA and rookie pool coming)
I really don't care what else happens....I just want the right person making those picks....we can argue all day who that is, but as long as good picks are made with those 11, we will all be happy.
#gmstrong
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I agree 100%.
But with all those picks we will also need coaches who know how to, you know, coach. Without good coaching those draft picks won't improve.
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Just what is it that Mangini brings to the table ? Period !
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That is one of the worst pieces of Monday Morning QB Journalism I have ever seen. It is full of supposition and it's biased beyond any professionalism....What did Mangini spit on his Grandmother...and all it does is piece together parts of unsubtantiated articles from people that don't have a lot of information either.
This is no better than some guy on the West Coast picking up a stats page and thinking Rob Ryan must be the worst DC in the world because of the Defense's Stats this season.
I have read better analysis from people on this message board....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Here is another possible negative to keeping Mangini...
He continues the Patriot bluepreint in the draft and drops down again and we passup on playmakers again...and only marginally improve if at all...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Legend
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Quote:
I agree 100%.
But with all those picks we will also need coaches who know how to, you know, coach. Without good coaching those draft picks won't improve.
agreed....which is why I don't think we see a single offensive coach back....
I just don't necessarily see a reason to blowup the defensive staff....maybe some changes, but I like keeping Rob Ryan to run that side of the ball.
#gmstrong
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Mangini is getting fired. I can't imagine a GM who would want to keep him after this. 
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Quote:
3. A recommendation by Mangini that Kokinis be his general manager and that Erin O’Brien be employed somewhere in the organization — after everyone at the Jets warned the Browns not to allow Mangini to make that move. O’Brien is the Manginis’ former babysitter and a friend of his wife Julie. Both Kokinis and O’Brien are now gone.
You have absolutely got to be kidding me. The defacto GM Mangini hires his babysitter to be an executive assistant?
Based on what experience? Babysitter with benefits??
Gawd.. Personally I think Mangini is damaged goods now. I can see the team laying down and dying at the Rats MNF game. Why would they want to help EM keep his job?
SaintDawg™
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Quote:
Mangini is getting fired.
I can't imagine a GM who would want to keep him after this.
Agreed.
Any GM who takes this job will want to bring in his own guy. And if they aren't allowed to bring in their own guy then they won't take the job.
Mangini is toast. It's only a matter of time.
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The only positive about what Mangini has done to this team is the fact that we can only go up. If we hire a new coach/GM/president, they're starting at the same level that Mangini would be CONTINUING at.
Therefore, given the way he's conducted himself, the fact that he's regressed our franchise, and the fact that he has no communication skills whatsoever and fails to interact with the fan base or important people in the organization, I say fire him now.
The advantage to keeping him is seeing how his plan might pan out. I have so little confidence in his "plan" and his "process" that I don't want to even take a chance at seeing how else he can botch this up. I hope he's gone as soon as the season is over.
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Mangini is history once the season ends.
This season is lost and I see nothing from the play of the team that convinces me, Mangini can turn this ship around in the last half of the season.
Let's put Mangini's team in perspective...this is the worst Browns team in the history of the franchise and there has not been enough "progress" to convince me that the second half of the season is going be much better.
The remaining schedule does include games with the Lions, Chiefs and Raiders...all potential victories. But even is the Browns would win these games it would not be enough to erase the dismal first half of the season.
When the owner fires Mangini's hand picked GM, it's not a vote of confidence for Mangini's future with the Browns.
I look for Quinn to start the remainder of the season as we still need to see what he can do. The Browns need to know where they stand at the QB position going into next season's draft and free agency.
It's time to begin preparing for next season and I look for some of our younger players to get some playing experience so they can be evaluated.
I see no positive reasons to keep Mangini as HC but the decision will likely be made by Lerner's new executive of football operations, whom ever that is.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Well, I'm sure this is just step 1 in a 3 step process that Lerner is going through:
1. Annouce your displeasure, fire a piece or two to send a message...everyone else goes on notice
2. Watch and evaluate each player, coach and ballboy the next 2-3 games.
3. If they don't show improvement, fire more.
Mangini and everyone else better watch out. Lerner's axe is still in the striking position.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Quote:
He continues the Patriot bluepreint in the draft and drops down again and we passup on playmakers again...and only marginally improve if at all...
According to Kosar (in an article that is posted on here somewhere) that's the problem.. We just don't have enough playmakers.. or did he call them difference makers... anyway, you get the drift..
We are probalby going to pick in the top 3 to 5 in the next draft.. we should be able to drop down a little, pick up another 1st and maybe a second in the process..
For sure we need at least the following:
QB of the future .. or maybe the Here and Now 
2 LB's.. one in and one out.
RT and RG: can you imagine getting someone like a tucker was 10 years ago.. whew..
RB if davis, Jennings and Harrison can't carry the load.. I'd love for them to give Jennings the test the rest of the season.. see what we have there..
CB.... Wright is good enough, one more, perhaps even better than him would be amazing
Safety... Gotta find a Troy Polomaulu type impact guy there..
With 11 picks, we ought to be able to find some of those..
Fill in with FA's and we are off to the races..
I think that won't happen with Mangini at the helm unless someone with mad skills at evaluating talent comes on board NOW or soon to be the GM with absolute power....
That to me is the real danger of keeping Mangini beyond this year..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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yea theres no way that any FAs will come here with Mangini at the helm.
I think that getting rid of him will be the only way we can bring in new players that have any talent. We have to really really hire everyone the right way this time...otherwise its going to get much worse before it gets better
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Here is the biggest reason.
If we continue to keep Mangini here, we will be further and further away from rebuilding successfully.
I have no idea who they should hire, but I know Mangini's direction is something I want to be as far away from as possible ATM.
you had a good run Hank.
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Hold up.. easy there.. yes we have 11 picks.. but many of them are in the 4th / 5th round range.. I'm not that excited about that.. most those guys never pan out.. when we trade some of those and package ourselves with more picks in the 2nd and 3rd.. then I'll have a big stiffie come draft day.
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I think the key is to fire Mangini...and hire someone who players respect.
We can't fire Mangini and hire another dolt.
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Quote:
first lets look at the positives of keeping him...
1. He gets to continue to build his team his way.
.......
lets consider if we fire him.
positives:
1. We can rebuild the organization the right way.
The immediate implication from your post is that building it HIS way is NOT building it the RIGHT way... therefore, why would we want to continue building it HIS way?
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Hold up.. easy there.. yes we have 11 picks.. but many of them are in the 4th / 5th round range.. I'm not that excited about that.. most those guys never pan out.. when we trade some of those and package ourselves with more picks in the 2nd and 3rd.. then I'll have a big stiffie come draft day.
I agree. I am not all that interested in trading down unless it is that first pick, and it better not be a drop of 25 slots. I am thinking 3-4 tops.
Lets use two 4th's and a 5th to get a high 3rd...I would rather pick up 3 solid players and be done with it rather than bring in a bunch of guys who are just going to take space.
Eric Berry might be a HOF type player. How much is a player like that worth??
Seems like a lot to me since you are lucky to have one HOF'er in any one draft class.
Trading down doesn't interest me all that much.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Legend
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In terms of historical worth, it's like what would you rather have.....3 quarters or 11 nickels.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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I'd take the 75 cents over the 55 cents. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Nothing personal at you,J/C
We just had 4 picks in the top two rounds,and came away with?
Worse case,2 of those,50%,should have been able to make an impact this season,as it is,they are not.
A team can have 30 picks,if they don't choose wisely,that's 30 picks wasted.
We need someone to run this draft,successfully.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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I think don't get how to trade down and still get playmakers..the top ten isn't the only group where there are playmakers..I don't have a problem with a tradedown..it's just what is done after the move.
At 21 the Browns had plenty of choices..plenty of playmakers to go at..
While I did like Mack..had they gone after Macklin/Britt/Matthews or another guy that would have been just as effective, even more so.
This year as U always like to say...BPA needs to be the norm in every selection..I advocate that at least the first 2-3 picks..anyone selected who is rated as the best player on the board can be plugged in anywhere on this team..if you get what I mean.
There is little talent..
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1st String
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The problem we are going to face is that unless Quinn is given a chance to play AND develops (which I doubt at this point), we will be virtually guaranteed to take a QB if we pick in the top 10. Mangini screwed up by taking a center in the first round, when you are as bad and talentless as the Browns were, you take playmakers not centers and you use your top 5 pick.
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All Pro
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My problem with the trade down is this.
While I liked Mack (figured the Steelers would take him)
The Browns earned that 5 spot the hard way....and for it...they end up with a Center...who if does his job...you will forget is even on the team.
Don't get me wrong...a Center is very important.....and Mangini did the same with Mangold in NY......difference is...the Jets took Mangold when they earned that late round 1 pick....they took Mack when they earned #5
HACK
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Quote:
Hold up.. easy there.. yes we have 11 picks.. but many of them are in the 4th / 5th round range
Ya know, that's true,, I missed that.. good catch Saint...
But still, we will have a top 5 pick and that should garner us a couple of 1sts or a lower first and maybe a second or two... so we could increase our number of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd picks if we do it right and find the right trading partner other than the Jets that is..
Hell, we could throw in a couple of QB's with starting experience as well.. maybe someone thinks they can develop Anderson or Quinn.....LOL who knows...
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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We're pretty much saying the same thing..I'm saying even at 21 there were playmakers sitting there..teams like NE/Philly consistantly draft playmakers outside of the top ten..
If the Browns had the right person making the picks it would happen.
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Mangini should be fired NOW.
That way you could put in an interem (Ryan) or you certainly could find someone as good as what is here now.
Fire Dabol, put our boy Bernie up in the box. I know he can read defense.
Go to a no huddle offense with Quinn. Let Bernie call the plays from the box.
I have seen him call the defense while doing preseason games and 9 out 10 times he is right.
Tryf Jennings and Harrison. Lewis is gone anyway at the end of the year.
See what we have.
Sign a VETERAN wide receiver to teach thes rookies how to run a pattern and catch the ball.
What do we have to lose.
At least you could evaluate the talent that we have.
I don't trust Mangini with 2 draft picks, let alone 11.
Now is the time to move.
you have two weeks to make changes.
Move Mack to guard and put Hank back at center.
Bench the RT and put pork chop in his place. What can be lost?
Hope springs eternal in the heart of a true Browns fan. GO BROWNS!!!!!
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458 Likes: 1
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
Mangini should be fired NOW.
That way you could put in an interem (Ryan) or you certainly could find someone as good as what is here now.
Fire Dabol, put our boy Bernie up in the box. I know he can read defense.
Go to a no huddle offense with Quinn. Let Bernie call the plays from the box.
I have seen him call the defense while doing preseason games and 9 out 10 times he is right.
Tryf Jennings and Harrison. Lewis is gone anyway at the end of the year.
See what we have.
Sign a VETERAN wide receiver to teach thes rookies how to run a pattern and catch the ball.
What do we have to lose.
At least you could evaluate the talent that we have.
I don't trust Mangini with 2 draft picks, let alone 11.
Now is the time to move.
you have two weeks to make changes.
Move Mack to guard and put Hank back at center.
Bench the RT and put pork chop in his place. What can be lost?
Posts like these make me wanna go fire up the box and start a Madden franchise.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,267 Likes: 3
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,267 Likes: 3 |
One really big neg comes to mind, we'll miss out on his scintillating pressers.  
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280 |
Quote:
anyone selected who is rated as the best player on the board can be plugged in anywhere on this team..if you get what I mean.
There is little talent..
I get exactly what you mean.. aside from LT, we need help everywhere. I just don't think you use a high draft pick on a college LT to make him a RT in the NFL, right tackles can be found a little later... but I'm splitting hairs... I get your point.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Since Randy Lerner is going to evaluate the system, and has already "fired" Kokinis...i think Mangini is the name that has to be evaluated next...
Man............I spend the night at a girlfriends house.........come back........turn on the computer..........and see 600 posts with Kok being shown the door.
As a buddy on this board who chooses to remain anonymous and I just discussed, we agree that the moment Lerner said he wanted a President, Mangini was toast.
He's finished, kaput, done, history.
No Pres is going to come in and keep 'Gini.
The real question becomes when he's toast.
Well, not really, there is a more important question:
Whether or not Lerner can finally get it right.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280 |
Quote:
teams like NE/Philly consistantly draft playmakers outside of the top ten..
If the Browns had the right person making the picks it would happen.
As well as teams like the Steelers, Colts, etc.. now the question is, are they drafting players that are that much better or are they drafting the same caliber of player and putting them in a much better situation?
What success would Macklin or Britt or McCoy be having with the Browns right now? My guess... ZERO.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367 Likes: 55
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367 Likes: 55 |
I'll bet he called him a lame duck too.  And like I told my anonymous friend, I only wish I had confidence that Lerner can choose the right people. I suppose the odds are in his favor at this point. 
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum positives/negatives to
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