DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Eric Mangini will help pick new GM

I believe that was Butch Davis who wouldn't listen to him.

To be honest, everyone has made great points about Mangini.

The Good:

1.) The guy knows Football and has learned from the best.
2.) He has gotten rid of "Me" Players in the Locker Room.
3.) He has set up a plan for the future, and sounds like he has complete support of the organization.
4.) Has high expectations of his players.

The Bad:

1.) He has totally screwed up the QB Situation.
2.) He has downgraded several positions.
3.) It's too early to tell, but the 2009 Draft hasn't contributed too much.
4.) He has appointed a horrible Staff, (Daboll as OC)
5.) Has created way too much controversy in the Organization (Fines, Rumors and ect that should have been bottled up).

Let Mangini finish out the season, but as soon as the Off-Season is over, find your President or GM, and then leave Mangini's fate up to them. If they like what Mangini has done or has to offer, then they can keep him, if not, they'll appoint a Head Coach as they see fit and start working on the 2010 Draft.

here is an interesting tidbit

Report: Lerner to hire 'football czar" within a month
Peter King reports on NBC that Browns owner Randy Lerner will or has talked to Ernie Accorsi, Mike Holmgren, and Ron Wolf about the Browns football czar post. A hire is expected within a month.

http://blog.theredzone.org/ViewItem.asp?Entry=3963

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This is the MAJOR and biggest problem with the Browns organization. Lerner has made the SAME mistake three times in a row now.

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I read that an wondered who the third HC that mangini hired was.. He hired John Collins after his father died and Policy said he was done. I'll give the guy a bit of a pass on that first hire for three reasons..

1. he was just getting into the football business and was being advised by Policy.

2.he was grieving the loss of his father

3. because of the way things went down between Savage and Collins, we'll never really know if Collins could have been a good President.

Then came Savage and RAC.. it's funny,, you can knock him all you want for those two hires... but in reality, if you go back and look at them, both guys appeared to be ready to make that next leap to the jobs that Randy hired them to do..

Both were respected...

Then came Mangini,,, It's not over yet, but I bet it will be soon.

To me, the only really blatant mistake that Randy has made was with Mangini and Kokinis.

Couple that with Holmgren's recent statements about Snyder that you would feel basically took him out of the running for a position in Washington and it could be advantage Browns if Randy doesn't wait until the end of the year to make a move when other positions are opening.

Mort and Schefter just reported on ESPN that while Randy will or already has spoken with Accorsi, McKay and Wolfe, it's Holmgren's job to lose, as they put it, it's Holmgren's job if he wants it. If so, he would hire his own GM and then decide on Mangini.

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One of the first people Cleveland Browns owner Randy Lerner will contact to run his team, if he hasn't contacted him already, is former Seattle Seahawks head coach Mike Holmgren, according to a team source.

Holmgren is itching to return to football and the opportunity he would have in Cleveland would be an attractive one. Lerner is looking for someone to perform for the Browns the same role that vice president of football operations Bill Parcells performs for the Dolphins. The job, for the time being, is Holmgren's to lose.

If Holmgren were to take it -- and there are some people who think he still would prefer to coach -- he would be returning to the Midwest, where he built his reputation as the head coach of the Green Bay Packers.

Holmgren is one of at least four names on Lerner's wish list, though he is considered the top target. The others are former New York Giants general manager Ernie Accorsi, Atlanta Falcons president Rich McKay and former Packers general manager Ron Wolf.

Accorsi is a family friend of the Lerners who has made it clear that he will not take a full-time job with the Browns. Accorsi was close to Lerner's father, and the Browns owner has an emotional attachment to and great respect for Accorsi. McKay serves in the same type of role in Atlanta that he would be asked to do in Cleveland. Wolf hired Holmgren as the Packers' head coach.

Lerner will offer whoever takes the job a broad array of powers. One of the chief ones will be the ability to hire whom the person wants as his general manager, in the same way that Parcells hired Jeff Ireland as the Dolphins general manager. Even though the Browns and their former general manager George Kokinis parted ways last week, Lerner has no plans right now to do away with his head coach, Eric Mangini.

Those who have spoken with Lerner in the past week said the Browns owner is determined to stick with Mangini for the time being, giving him the time that Kokinis did not get. Kokinis spent 18 years with the Baltimore Ravens, and nine months with the Browns.

Ultimately, Lerner might not even make the final call on Mangini -- it likely will be up to the team president and general manager that he hires. They will be the ones to determine whether to keep or dispose of Mangini, who is coming under heavy criticism in the Cleveland area for leading the team to a 1-7 record with an offense that has scored one fewer touchdown this season than the New Orleans Saints defense that has six. Those who know Kokinis say he expected to be let go from Cleveland at least one month ago. The Browns even tried to get him to resign long before last week.

Kokinis had grown so disconnected to Mangini and other members of the Browns front office that the two rarely, if ever, had any contact. Kokinis grew increasingly withdrawn to the point where he looked and acted so unhappy, the Browns ordered him into counseling, according to sources.

Essentially, the two sides divorced long before it became official last week.

What's next for Kokinis depends largely on when he and the Browns will be able to resolve their contractual differences. But Kokinis has a sterling reputation around the league, and is highly respected amongst numerous front-office men. He will have no difficulty landing a job, and it's quite possible he could return to Baltimore, where he still owns a home. Many around the league believe he will be back with the Ravens.

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This is a good thing.

ESPN.com - Adam Schefter

All the guys the Browns are targeting are going to fire EM...he is done here short of Lerner hiring some fool as the GM.

If its McKay or Holmgren...EM is toast ASAP, and rightly so.

He would have to. Unless he resigns, which I doubt.

Yes he will.

Holmgren is the right choice for the job, but he's going to have to get full control and a ton of cash to come here. Lerner is at least showing he has a clue in letting someone else setup the organization instead of him trying to do it himself.

Holmgren is a good fit here in this division. The Packers played in that black n blue division and Mike did well with that type of football team. Our division is similar. It could be a good fit and him supplant LBJ as the "King of Cleveland".

Get it done RL...

Kiffen didnt get paid by Al Davis when he was fired. Kiffen even saked "am I still getting paid?" and Davis said "No".

Im sure kiffen tried to get his money, not sure if he did or Davis agreed to a lesser amount. But when Kiffen took another coaching job in college, then Davis dont have to pay him. I think thats why Butch Davis didnt get back into coaching. He was making a lot of money from his contract. He resigned but he agreed to resign if he got his full contract. I know for a fact that he did get his full contract amount paid to him. Then he got some extra money working as an anylyst for the NFL Network. He probably jumped right back into coaching after his old contract was up.

How many years did Mangini sign for? If he gets his whole contract paid if he did get fired, Id bet that he would sit and collect rather than take another coaching job. There is no way that he can match what he is making in Cleveland and I think he has burned too many bridges for someone to want Mangini to work with them. I can only see him getting hired as a head coach but thats not going to happen. Mangini worked up the ladder fast but I think its because he stabbed people in the back to get there. He didnt show me that he is a 'genius' that worked his way up with superior football knowledge. I dont see many NFL teams be in a hurry to bring Mangini into their organization so most likely Lerner is going to have to pay the man to sit in Conn. and run his football camp for kids.

Mangini and Snyder might be able to work together. I would like to see them bump heads. I doubt Mangini can work for someone and report to them with immediate results the way Mangini wants people to work for him.

Didn't Davis have "cause" not to pay Kiffin?? Lerner would have to do the same.

Would he get the full contract, which I believe was for 4 years?? I have no idea, especially if he took another job. That might be considered double dipping.

Mangini's career as a head coach would be over. He would be regulated to assistant jobs.

If you're gonna get a football czar, you should at least get a winner. Get Marty, Martyball wins divisions early and often, and even with it's problems it is alot better than what you have. Holmgren and Wolfe are gambles. The problem is the Browns have nothing to believe in, and nobody you can be sure of will be loyal to Cleveland. Marty, in my mind would be both loyal to Cleveland and provide the organizational skill to give you something to believe in.

It is definetly an important decision. There are High school seniors who the Browns haven't had 2 winning seasons in a row in their memories. That is a generation of folks who don't expect Browns dominance.

It is an important decision.

I wouldn't be shocked to see Holmgren be the GM/Prez. He's had success as a GM in the past, and would be a great fit for that job as well. He put together while he was still GM the core of that Seahawk team that won a SB. I hope whatever his title is he has a lot of imput on the players that we acquire, because he's proven that he's quite good at it.

The problem is he's not taking this job with the condition of being stuck with Mangini as his HC (as some have suggested in this thread). The guy will have multiple opportunities, and can pick and chose who/where he wants to go. I personally don't see Lerner putting those conditions on him, but if he does we won't get MH.

Marty has said he is NOT coming to Cleveland.
He does not want anything to do with this stockpike of nuclear waste that Mangenious has put together.
My best guess is Holmgren.
How he will do who knows, but it sure would be a step in the right direction.

Post deleted by lampdogg

There was a huge thread about him basically saying it would take somebody alot more qualified than him to clean up this mess that Gini created.

Here it is... from a thread down the page.

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Marty Schottenheimer isn't interested in the Cleveland Browns' general manager vacancy.

The former Browns coach made that point abundantly clear during his NFL Sirius radio show.

“I don’t even see that kind of a role for me," Schottenheimer said today. "I’m not familiar enough with what they have in terms of their front office. Let somebody else do that. It’s really a very unusual circumstance and it’s going to take some dramatic measures in my mind to be able to get the thing headed in the right direction.

“The bottom line for them right now is they don’t have a real good football team. They’re not playing even to the level that the talent is expressed and it’s going to be a very, very difficult circumstance. The important thing in my view is very simply this: You cannot lose your football team. And dashing around doing all these things that are on the periphery don’t serve any useful purpose at this point in time. You want to resolve issues like this? Let the thing play out, gather information as you go."

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As for Holmgren, the guy has built winners. I'd love him in C-Town, whatever his role would be.

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Kiffen didnt get paid by Al Davis when he was fired. Kiffen even saked "am I still getting paid?" and Davis said "No".

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Not for nothin,,but I just don't get a feeling that Randy cares about a few million dollars.. He's on the hook for millions with Savage, RAC, Collins (I think) and for a while, Butch Davis as well.

I get the impression he wants to win and I don't get the feeling money will play any role in the decisions he makes. JMO however..

Prez-Holmgren
GM-Chris Polian
HC-Whoever they choose works for me.

Only guy I am interested in out of the given names are Holmgreen. Everyone else can kick rocks..

Seahawks Should Pass on Holmgren
AP Photo

By Brian McIntyre
NorthwestFootball.net
Posted Nov 4, 2009




The calls to replace Tim Ruskell are growing louder, but if the Seattle Seahawks go that route, they should pass on hiring Mike Holmgren as their next general manager.

Even with a win this Sunday over the lowly Detroit Lions, the 2009 Seattle Seahawks would be 3-5 when they enter the second half of the regular season, which begins with a three-game road trip that includes games against the defending NFC Champion Arizona Cardinals and what appears to be the future NFC Champion Minnesota Vikings. (Novel concept you heard here first: Any chance this team has of salvaging this season hinges upon their ability to play on the road, right? So why not get into that “road warrior” mindset this week and wear the road whites against the Lions at Qwest Field this Sunday?)

In all likelihood, the Seahawks will be 4-7 at the beginning of December, and the drum beat to not extend president and general manager Tim Ruskell’s expiring contract is bound to have grown even louder.

Ruskell’s ability to evaluate talent isn’t in question, his approach towards building and re-stocking the roster is.

An inordinate amount of this team’s high draft picks and priority free agent dollars on building a defense that appears incapable of even being respectable away from Qwest Field. Meanwhile, a once solid offensive line was re-stocked with a pair of early-round centers and multiple mid-round guard prospects, ironic considering how little he valued that position in February of 2006. (And this item about Steve Hutchinson being flagged for his first holding penalty in six years has to depress the hell out of Seahawks fans.)

Ruskell’s approach to the left tackle position alone would be enough to warrant a nameplate change on the door to the VMAC’s corner office, but he’s also misfired on first-round picks in 2006 and 2007, the latter of course, occurring when Ruskell traded the first-round pick to the New England Patriots for Deion Branch. As much as I applaud the spirit of that trade—and would do it again—when trades involving 1st round picks and $39 million dollar contracts don’t pan out, the man who pulled the trigger on the deal needs to be held accountable. (And no contract the size of Branch’s should ever have reached the 4th year without being restructured.)

Ruskell’s approach to the NFL Draft seemingly eliminates the Seahawks from selecting a player from a non-BCS conference, as just one of his 37 selections, San Diego State long-snapper Tyler Schmitt, hails from a non-BCS school. Of the 59 players on the Seahawks’ current roster, including those on injured reserve and the practice squad, that were acquired since 2005, just five players (Nate Burleson, David Hawthorne, Jon Ryan, Tyler Roehl, and Devin Moore) are from non-BCS schools.

I’m sure there are mountains of data Ruskell could point to which states that choosing players from major conferences increases the player’s chances of succeeding at the NFL level. Knowing the front office will rigidly stick to that philosophy, though, eliminates any hope that players like Ryan Clady, Joe Flacco, DeMarcus Ware, Logan Mankins, or Sean Smith will ever have their names called by a Ruskell-led Seahawks franchise.

Seattle sports radio station 950-KJR not only called for the franchise to replace Ruskell, but to do so with former Seahawks head coach Mike Holmgren, who handled the GM duties until former team president Bob Whitsitt relieved him of those duties in 2003.

Holmgren is currently co-hosting a weekly “NFL Show” on KJR, and his tenure as general manager has been looked upon more favorably with each passing year. The 2005 Seattle Seahawks, for example, which was the NFL’s #1-ranked scoring offense, was largely constructed when Holmgren was buying the proverbial groceries.

As general manager, Holmgren suckered the Dallas Cowboys into dealing two first-round picks for Joey Galloway, one of which was used to select running back Shaun Alexander, the 2005 NFL MVP and the Seahawks’ all-time leader in rushing yards and total touchdowns. Holmgren signed Robbie Tobeck and Bobby Engram in 1999, drafted Darrell Jackson in the third round in 2000, swapped 2001 first-round picks and sent an additional third-round pick to the Green Bay Packers for Matt Hasselbeck, using the later first-round pick on Hutchinson.

However, it was also Holmgren the GM who threw veteran parts and forgettable early-round draft picks (Lamar King, Anton Palepoi, Ike Charlton, Kris Richard, etc…) at a defense which failed to rank any higher than 19th under his watch, thus creating the need for a Bob Ferguson, later Ruskell, to come in and fix the defense.

Holmgren has repeatedly mentioned how he’s learned from the mistakes he made during his time as general manager, and that he’d do things differently if given another crack at that job. He’s also made no secret of his intentions to get back into the NFL next season, or of his willingness to work for Paul Allen again.

As much as Holmgren is to be celebrated for helping make football in Seattle relevant again, and as much as I personally would’ve been in favor of him remaining the head coach for as long as he wanted, hiring Holmgren to be the team’s next general manager would be sending the Seahawks into the past, when it needs to be looking towards the future.

First off, the next general manager—if Ruskell is even replaced—is in for 2-3 year overhaul of the offensive line, will be tasked with finding the quarterback of the future, and it could be a couple of seasons before the Seahawks are legitimate Super Bowl contenders. Holmgren turns 62 next summer, and it’s a fair to question whether or not he still going to want to be working in an NFL front office when he’s 65 or 66 years old.

Secondly, it wouldn’t be fair to current head coach Jim Mora to put the coach he replaced in charge of his job security. As much as I disagreed with naming a successor to Holmgren before his final season—a mistake you’ll never see another NFL team repeat—the bottom line is Mora is the head coach of this football team, and should be given the opportunity to succeed without the man he replaced looming overhead and making the team’s personnel decisions.

There are also legitimate questions about whether or not Holmgren can ignore the itch he has to resume his coaching career. Holmgren may aspire to a role similar to the one Bill Parcells has in Miami, but a major factor in Parcells’ ability to delegate authority and stay up in the owner’s box on Sundays is that at this stage of his life, he’d much rather be at the track in Saratoga than breaking down film in a classroom in Miami.

Given the team’s plethora of needs on offense, it’s tempting to want a brilliant offensive mind like Holmgren building that side of the ball. However, considering his track record as general manager, the Seahawks would run the risk of repeating the mistakes made throughout the last ten years, both under Holmgren and Ruskell, of having a front office too focused on one area of the team. Balance is needed in a front office, and neither Holmgren nor Ruskell has a history of being able to provide it.

Since it’s impolite to say “This guy isn’t the answer” without providing alternatives, here are some candidates Mr. Allen might want to consider handing the keys to his franchise to:

Name: Eric DeCosta
Current team: Baltimore Ravens
Current position: Director of Player Personnel
Age: 38

DeCosta has been with the Ravens for the last 13 years, and was the Ravens’ director of college scouting for six seasons before being promoted to his current position in 2009. Part of a front office which recognized that its Hall of Fame left tackle (Jonathan Ogden) wasn’t getting any younger and between 2005 and 2009, drafted six tackles, including a supplemental pick on left tackle Jared Gaither and a first-round pick this year on Michael Oher. Baltimore also used a first-round pick on Ben Grubbs (2007) and second-round pick on Chris Chester (2006), and in 2005, used a fourth-round pick on Jason Brown, who started 45 games for the Ravens before the St. Louis Rams made him the highest-paid center in the NFL this past off-season.

During the last five seasons, the Ravens not only continuously improved their offensive line, but they’ve fielded a defense that’s never been ranked lower than 6th, found their franchise quarterback (Joe Flacco) and a running back (Ray Rice) who is not only averaging 5.5 yards per carry, but also leads all running backs in receiving yards this season.

In the 71 regular season games since 2005, the Ravens are 39-32 and made two playoff appearances, including winning two road playoff games to reach last year’s AFC Championship game. During the same stretch, the Seahawks are 38-33, won three division titles, but haven’t won a road playoff game since 1984.

Name: Tom Heckert
Current team: Philadelphia Eagles
Current position: General Manager
Age: 42

Philadelphia has been the NFC’s best team this decade, making seven playoff appearances, and having just one losing season (2005) and one of the main reasons for their success can be attributed to their personnel department, which Heckert joined in 2001 after 10 years in the Miami Dolphins’ front office.

The Eagles’ drafts this decade have been among the best in the league, adding Pro Bowlers like Lito Sheppard, Michael Lewis, Brian Westbrook, Trent Cole, and Shawn Andrews in the early part of the decade. In recent years, the Eagles have chosen Broderick Bunkley, Mike Patterson, Stewart Bradley, Brent Celek, DeSean Jackson, Jeremy Maclin, and LeSean McCoy.

Heckert was promoted to VP of Player Personnel in 2003 and to general manager in 2006. As GM, one area Heckert has been proactive has been identifying who the team’s key players are and signing them to long-term extensions before their rookie contracts expire, avoiding situations the Seahawks have found themselves in with Steve Hutchinson (2006), Josh Brown (2007), Marcus Trufant (2008), and Leroy Hill (2009).

Though Heckert is signed through the 2011 season, he does not have final say on personnel matters in Philadelphia (that belongs to head coach Andy Reid) and in the last few years, has been granted permission to interview for NFL teams (Cleveland, Atlanta) that would’ve provided him with final authority.

Name: Reggie McKenzie
Current team: Green Bay Packers
Current position: Director of Football Operations
Age: 46

A former linebacker for the Los Angeles Raiders and San Francisco 49ers, McKenzie has been in the Packers’ front office for the last 15 years, serving as Director of Pro Personnel from 1997-2007 before being promoted in 2008 to his current position, where he oversees the scouting of all professional leagues and assists current general manager Ted Thompson with the scouting of college players.

McKenzie learned the front office ropes under former Packers GM Ron Wolf and recently interviewed for general manager jobs with the Houston Texans and Atlanta Falcons.

Name: Doug Whaley
Current team: Pittsburgh Steelers
Current position: Pro Personnel Coordinator
Age: 37

A former scout for the Seahawks back in the mid-90s, Whaley has headed up the Steelers’ pro personnel department for the last 12 years, a position that also involves considerable input in the team’s pre-draft preparations.

With the Steelers winning two Lombardi Trophies, Whaley may be ready to follow in the footsteps of Tom Donahoe and Tom Modrak, two former NFL general managers who preceded Whaley in his current position.

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That doesn't scare me one bit. He did struggle to field a decent D, but he also built an offense when he was GM that went to the SB.............drafting/acquiring the likes of Alexander, Hutchenson, Jones, Hasselback, Evans...etc. His defensive picks were suspect at best, but his ability to draft offensive weapons (and build a stud OL) would be a huge plus for a team that goes weeks without scoring offensive TDs.

I understand why Seattle wouldn't want MH back, because of the Mora factor. However, to discredit what he did as THE GM would be asinine. Any talent evaluator is going to have misses along the way...........Walsh, Wolf, Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, Belly Ache........any of them. Holmgren in that regard is no different. However, he did show the ability while GM of the Hawks to obtain a lot of players that became core guys on a team that went to the SB.............and that is why Holmgren is such an interesting guy to take over this job.

He didn't have the opportunity to concentrate only on the personnel side of things, because he was also the HC. Even with all of the Pro Bowlers (and a couple of HOFers eventually) that he did acquire perhaps if he had the opportunity to concentrate just on player personnel he could do even greater things.

Imo Holmgren still remains the cream of the crop for what we are wanting.

I have been admiring the Eagles drafts for years. In my opinion they're the best. Don't really know anything about Heckert but the Eagles track record is impressive.

To me the best drafting teams have been the Giants and Eagles, I always like what they do.

The Giants defensive scheme....oh my lord....would love....LOVE to have the Browns run it.

43 one gap. Not reliant on the blitz. Good middle push, great ends. MLB stud.

It's just a root base that kills teams straight up.

Post deleted by Referee2

Lerner has to either go that route-- Bernie,...(maybe Holmgren), or he has to admit he thinks Mangini can do both jobs (like Holmgren did) and just go for that.

I do not believe Mangini can do this thing by his own self, however.

Therefore, he either needs to be gone, or found a partner he can work with.

Doubtful.