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Legend
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Legend
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By now, I imagine your typical Cleveland Browns fan has started to look back on 1996-98, the three seasons they had no NFL team to follow, with a mixture of nostalgia and fondness. Given the almost constant state of despair Browns fans have resided in since the franchise was re-born as an expansion entry in 1999, who could blame them for remembering those days as relatively pain-free compared to the misery to come?
This week's surprisingly sudden departure/dismissal of general manager George Kokinis -- who was literally shown the door Monday night, just eight games into his first season on the job -- may be the ultimate example of the instability and dysfunction that reigns within the Browns organization.
Multiple NFL sources I spoke to this week about Kokinis's brief and tumultuous tenure painted a portrait of a deeply flawed working relationship between Kokinis and first-year Browns head coach Eric Mangini, one that soured almost immediately despite the long and close friendship the men had enjoyed, and the fact Mangini had hand-picked Kokinis for the job and recommended him to Browns owner Randy Lerner.
League sources with direct knowledge of the situation say Kokinis quickly found himself caught in an inner-organizational power struggle with Mangini that he was both ill-equipped to fight in terms of having established allies in the building, and temperamentally disinclined to wage. Sources said Kokinis felt marginalized within the Browns front office, lacked anything close to the personnel decision-making authority his contract called for, and was ultimately scape-goated by Mangini when the repeated failures by the Browns (1-7) this season intensified the heat on the new coach.
"He thought he was getting the job of a lifetime working with one of his best friends, but it wasn't that at all,'' said a league source who is familiar with both Kokinis and the Browns organization. "It was working for Eric Mangini, not with him. Eric was in charge of everything, and George resented that. It wasn't the job he thought he'd taken. It wasn't the partnership as he thought it would be. And he would have never taken it if he thought it was going to go that way.
"Ultimately what happened was he started to question his own existence in the organization. He was very unhappy. He takes the job, and from day one it was like they both had recipes for chicken soup, but they ended up trying to combine the recipes and all they did was ruin the dish.''
When the Browns, at Mangini's behest, hired Kokinis away from Baltimore, where he was the Ravens pro personnel director, Cleveland had to grant him final authority over personnel decision-making for the job to qualify as a promotion instead of a lateral move. That decision-making power was a sticking point early in negotiations between the Browns and Kokinis, a source said, but the Ravens demanded it be part of the deal in exchange for releasing Kokinis from his contract.
Multiple sources said Kokinis had some misgivings about leaving Baltimore, because he enjoyed his job in the Ravens' well-respected personnel department and his wife loved living in the area. But he was persuaded to take the job by Mangini, with whom he once roomed with in Cleveland when both were low-level employees in the Browns' Bill Belichick era of the mid-90s.
Mangini and Kokinis had remained close, and Mangini, as the Jets new head coach in 2006, had tried unsuccessfully to hire his old friend away from the Ravens personnel department. Baltimore blocked the move that time, but each summer Kokinis continued to deliver the keynote address at Mangini's Connecticut-based charitable foundation, and even had the role of awarding a new computer to one lucky student each year.
But the final personnel authority that Kokinis thought he had secured upon taking the Browns job is said to have wound up being a reality on paper only, as Mangini dominated all issues regarding player acquisition and evaluation.
"Two weeks into it, George is sitting there saying, 'Why am I here?' '' said another league source. "George gets there and finds out he's a glorified personnel director. He gets out-voted on every front, and he doesn't really have the personality to fight that. He went along with it and hoped it worked out, but it didn't.''
According to a league source, the two men came into their working relationship with different ideas of how their partnership would work in the Browns front office. Kokinis thought it would be modeled after Baltimore, where longtime general manager Ozzie Newsome has had successful, power-sharing partnerships with head coaches Brian Billick and John Harbaugh.
But it quickly became apparent to Kokinis, a source said, that Mangini intended to run things more like his former mentor, Patriots head coach Bill Belichick, who has final say and speaks as the only voice of the organization. In that role, the expectation for Kokinis apparently was for him to be like the seldom-seen and seldom-heard Scott Pioli in New England, the respected ex-Patriots personnel man who left this year to take the Chiefs general manager position.
The difference in management approaches led to conflict between Mangini and Kokinis when different opinions surfaced in regard to personnel matters.
"Mangini thought he needed him, and wanted him there, but he thought George would be compliant once he got the job,'' a league source said. "George is a huge believer in going young and building through the draft, and Eric is too, to a degree. But he's influenced by Belichick and Bill Parcells, and you know how they are, they both want their guys. They want their old players who know the system and the culture they're trying to build. Even at the expense of good young players.
"So they sign a bunch of old Jets that Mangini had in New York. And they trade Kellen Winslow, and stay away from [drafting] Mark Sanchez, and trade Braylon Edwards for a bunch of Jets cast-offs. Just Jets cast-offs. They just had a different way of doing things, and it caused issues.''
The different approaches to personnel led to different evaluations of the direction the Browns should go at the game's most crucial position, quarterback. Mangini benched Brady Quinn, the team's No. 1 pick in 2007, three games into the season, and switched to veteran Derek Anderson, who has performed so dismally that Mangini re-inserted Quinn late in last week's loss to Chicago. With his Browns currently in their bye week, Mangini is again pondering a switch at starting quarterback.
"I'm sure that was the first real red flag for George, with Mangini naming Quinn the starter and then pulling him after 10 quarters this season,'' a league source said. "George couldn't have been comfortable with that. I've even heard that George didn't know that Braylon Edwards was being traded until it happened.
"He just got caught in a power struggle, and he had no allies there. It was a stacked deck against him when he got there, and then it completely went against him as things evolved. George is a loyalist if there's ever been one, but he was in a very tough spot. George is a victim right now. But there have been other victims in Cleveland along the way. Some of them just survived longer than he did.''
In a session with the Cleveland-area media Tuesday, Mangini deflected most questions about Kokinis's abrupt departure, saying "I can tell you that for a variety of reasons things didn't work out. You never go into a situation like this with the intention of it not working out. We felt that, organizationally, this was the best decision in order to move forward."
In recent weeks, Kokinis knew his influence had diminished so dramatically within the organization in relation to Mangini's that sources said he was not surprised by his removal Monday. Browns president Mike Kennan and vice-president of football administration Dawn Aponte are believed to have aligned themselves with Mangini in the power struggle, further isolating Kokinis within his own building.
"As Eric started taking on more and more power, [Kokinis] kind of saw what was happening and really kind of withdrew,'' a league source said. "George has a great work ethic, and he'd rather sit and watch tape in his office than anything else. He figured out where things were headed. The owner hired Eric Mangini. George was basically hired by Mangini. So if you're in that front office, who are you going to side with? It's not that tough to figure out. I think he's known for about two months now what was coming.''
According to sources, Lerner asked Kokinis to resign, and when Kokinis refused, made it clear to Kokinis the club would seek a dismissal "for cause,'' citing a lack of performance of his duties as GM. That would allow the Browns to contend they have no obligation to pay the balance of the five-year contract (at about $1 million per year) it gave Kokinis in January.
"They're going to look at his phone records and try to make some case that says he was trying to give away trade secrets to other teams or something,'' a league source said. "But it's not going to stick. It won't work. They're just trying to find something to prove a lack of performance.''
A league source said Kokinis has retained a "high-profile" attorney with experience arguing against the NFL to represent him in the event the Browns continue to contest his contract. "I think George is going to kick ass, and the Browns will end up caving in,'' a league source said. "I don't think they have a leg to stand on.''
While Mangini, by all accounts, won his power struggle with his longtime friend and former roommate and consolidated his own power, multiple sources say he is far from safe as the Browns head coach beyond the second half of this season. Lerner, sources said, is dissatisfied with Mangini's performance as well, and will likely bow to the public pressure calling for a new Browns head coach in 2010.
"So this week they sacrificed George Kokinis,'' a league source said. "They stuck his head on a stick, stuck it out the window and the fans cheered. For all of about 20 minutes. But then it's, 'Wait a minute. This isn't really the guy who was responsible.' This is Randy Lerner being under the spell of Eric Mangini. To a degree. [Mangini's] done at the end of the year. And a lot of it is deserved. He's got no chance at this point. The fans are never going to accept the guy. It just wasn't his turn [to go] yet.''
SI.com - Don Banks
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Legend
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Quote:
Cleveland Browns owner Randy Lerner, under fire after parting ways with general manager George Kokinis midway through his first season as GM, denied today that Kokinis had been fired and said he hoped to find a veteran NFL general manager-type like Ernie Accorsi or Mike Holmgren to help shape the organization and help embattled coach Eric Mangini.
"George is no longer active within our organization, but at this time has not been fired,'' Lerner said in a telephone interview.
This could be simple semantics because it's widely expected the Browns will attempt to cancel the remainder of Kokinis' five-year contract without paying him, citing "for cause'' and contending that he wasn't doing his job.
The story is shrouded in mystery, and Lerner no-commented almost all specific elements of it. He said he "began to have doubts'' about Kokinis by training camp, but wouldn't be specific.
Lerner has to be wondering about the kind of work environment Mangini has created, now that two of the people the coach wanted to help him shape the organization -- director of team operations Erin O'Brien, brought jn from the Jets by Mangini, and Kokinis, hired away from the Ravens -- have left the team in the past couple of weeks, and no one will explain their departures. "It's not a happy building to be working in right now,'' said one source who is friendly with many Browns employees. That could be one of the reasons Lerner wants a veteran NFL leader in the building -- to see not only why the Browns are a woebegone 1-7 with little hope for the future, but also why the first 10 months of the Mangini regime have gone so haywire.
NFL sources have told SI.com's Don Banks that almost from the time Kokinis took over as GM last winter that Mangini didn't live up to the terms of Kokinis' contract,, which mandated that the GM had final control of the 53-man roster. Another league source said he has been told the Browns will contend that Kokinis never tried to assert that authority, despite repeated attempts from the organization higher-ups urging him to take a stronger role in team affairs. If that's the case, then the team likely has documented his perceived failings.
The Browns have had a disastrous year, dating to the firing of general manager Phil Savage with four years left on his contract and coach Romeo Crennel with three remaining years. The Browns owe Savage and Crennel an estimated $21 million. Mangini is in the first year of a reported four-year, $12-million deal, while Kokinis was believed to be making slightly more than $1 million per year. If the team parts ways with Mangini after the season, that's another $9 million the Browns will owe a former employee.
Asked about Mangini's fate, Lerner said, "I still believe in Eric, and we're trying to give him the resources he needs to be successful. We all knew the situation we were in when Eric took over.''
Lerner wouldn't comment on specific candidates to take the role of organizational godfather, but he's clearly looking for a Bill Parcells-type leader who'd be able to help Mangini -- or his successor -- navigate the minefields of the job. Accorsi retired from the Giants in January 2007, while Holmgren stepped down as Seattle coach last January after formerly being both coach and general manager. Accorsi has told the Cleveland Plain Dealer he's not interested in a full-time job. But these two men clearly fit the profile of what Lerner wants -- a man who has had Super Bowl success and helped build winning franchises.
The Browns' owner will have a difficult decision to make after the season. Cleveland will have a high first-round draft choice in April, with a major need at quarterback, and the quarterback crop will be strong. The Savage-Crennel regime drafted Brady Quinn in 2007, but Mangini never had a strong belief in Quinn. So after 10 quarters at the helm of the team in September, Quinn was replaced by Derek Anderson, who has performed miserably. Even if Quinn gets the job back sometime this year, it will be by default. Sources say there's no way the team will bring back Quinn in 2010.
If Lerner has major doubts about Mangini come January, his decision about whether to go after a new coach will be doubly difficult. If Lerner thinks Mangini might be a short-timer, he could be inclined to plunge into the deep pool of coaching candidates come the offseason.
SI.com - Peter King
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2nd String
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Mangenius is a maroon. The sooner he is gone the better. If he was fired yesterday it wouldn't be soon enough. 
Hope springs eternal in the heart of a true Browns fan. GO BROWNS!!!!!
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Sounds to me like they fired the wrong guy. I also don't think the whole firing for cause thing is going to stick.
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Legend
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Man... I knew we should have kept Romeo...
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Nothing new, or something we couldnt figure out ourselves.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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If this turns out to be Mangini's fault, I think he should have to pay Kokinis the money the Browns owe him. Kokinis should have gone to Randy, end of story.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Mangini is gone folks.............just be patient. I also think we have a very good shot at Holmgren if Lerner wants to pay the money. Listen if he fires Manpoleon and loses the deal with Kok (and we will lose that case imo) then Lerner is on the hook for 35 million dollars in dead salary at the end of the year. Then add another 30-40 million it will take to get Holmgren, and then another 20 million to hire a HC. At that point your pushing a 100 million dollar debt to front office employees. So I think we can get Holmgren, but the real question does Lerner fork over the money to do it.
This will be a big test to Lerner's commitment to winning imo. We all know he's made HORRIBLE mistakes in hiring, but he's never been accused of being stingy in his efforts to field a winner (not by anyone without an agenda anyway). However, we'll be able to tell how commited Lerner is here, and I'll tell you why. King and others have said that Lerner desires and thinks the organization needs a Prez/GM who has built a team that went/won a SB. Well that list is short, and expensive. So if Lerner shells out the dough, gets the Prez/GM with SB builder experience and is on the hook for 100 million in FO expenses/debt. Folks if he does this people better get off Lerner's back about not caring if we win or lose. That is a HUGE commitment even for a billionare like Lerner. Feel free to question his hiring mistakes if you wish, but there isn't a sane person that can question his desire to win or commitment to this team if he does this.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Mangini is a joke. He emphasizes selflessness and the team being more important than the individual, but it looks like he was pretty quick to throw a lifelong pal under the bus.
Here's his accomplishments in Cleveland:
1. Traded away our best tight end and receiver for Jets scrubs and draft picks.
2. Wastes the draft picks on receivers who can't catch, can't see the field, and reaches for a lineman turned inside linebacker.
3. Gives away our sixth round pick for an extra 80th roster spot.
4. Forces the rookies to go on that stupid "volunteer" bus trip.
5. Replaces garbage with stinkier garbage at right tackle.
6. Totally botched the QB situation.
7. Brought in Daboll and his goofy beard (seriously what is up with that thing?) to call awful plays for an offense that has fewer touchdowns than the Saints defense.
8. He has managed to turn most of the local and national media and most of the fanbase against him.
9. He has made us the laughing stock of the NFL. We make the Raiders look like a model organization.
Most importantly, he has NOT won, and has in fact made the team worse than it was in 1999.
GET A NEW COACH!!
Much respect to ya, even if you wish me the opposite...
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Man... I knew we should have kept Romeo...
I'm starting to think that too. The players were behind him and played hard for the big guy. But he was a bad game day coach and had trouble with the clock.
Can't believe it's so bad in Cleveland that we're wishing the Savage/Crennel regime was still in tact.
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Man... I knew we should have kept Romeo...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Wow....
Not suprising but at the same time I wonder how Randolph could be this bad of an owner.
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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Legend
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Yes, it is that sad. I don't think that a team in this era can play for a coach they hate, esp. when the team is losing.
Banks is a highly-respected columnist, he isn't some guy writing a blog for a website. I put a lot of faith in his sources & his willingness to run with them.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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I don't think that a team in this era can play for a coach they hate, esp. when the team is losing.
Coughlin.....although the NYG were in no where near the dire straits we're in.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Legend
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I've lost a lot of faith in Mangini lately, but I'm still not in the "fire him right now" camp (although it may not take much to push me there).
That being said, unless this team really turns it around in the 2nd half of the season, I just can't see Lerner keeping him. I mean, if he announces after the last game that he's giving Mangini another season, there will be near rioting in the streets.
So, like I said, unless there's a marked improvement, I don't see how Mangini gets another year.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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If this were a football game the media would get 15 yards for piling on.
Maybe that will get Lerner riled up enough to make the right decision.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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I am now convinced that Mangini is an idiot.
But FAR more concerning is that he is a pschopathic scum-bag. I feel so sorry for Kokinis. The guy thought he was coming to have this great deal with one of his best friends, is lured away from a great situation, and then totally blind-sided by this "friend." Now he's moved his family, has no job and the organization that screwed him out of his career is trying to screw him out of the contract that they signed. All because this fat little insane moron was 1. given way too much power that he was allowed to use in a shockingly inhumane way and 2. Had no problem setting this guy up to be a puppet in his retarded "system" and when he found out the guy had some professional ethics, dismissed him like he was the cleaning crew.
Mangini is at best first-class scum and at worst (and most likely) a total psychopath.
I'm really embarrassed that that fat little puke is still allowed to stand on the sidelines, on national TV, and represent this team. The sooner he is thrown out on his sizeable a-hole, the better.
This hire was easily, the worst we have had to endure in the last 20 years. And the way this latest regime was thrown together shows the untfathomable ineptitude that the ownership has showed in building an organization.
They need to stop playing all the freakin games. Seriously, have you ever seen an organization play more games? Have more secrets? Look more like a bunch of snake-oil salesmen who talk out of both sides of their mouth?
It's dispicable. And as it's been said a lot this week in particular, we deserve better.
This crap has officially gotten out of hand.
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Legend
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I don't think EM is a psychopath but he's certainly a narcissist. I also can't feel sorry for kokinis, he should have grown a pair and done something besides crawling into a corner in his office and hiding. As I said in another thread, firing kokinis was tantamount to firing the water boy. It may have opened up a slot for a new GM but who in their right mind would want that job, seriously. What a mess.
#GMSTRONG
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I'm not so sure I know what to think anymore. Train wreck is right.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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I am now convinced that Mangini is an idiot.
On the contrary. I think he's brilliant.
Only Mangini could have created this scene.......one where he convinces someone to come be the GM while all the while keeping all the power for himself.
That's a brilliant bit of power-play.
Of course I'm not the LEAST bit convinced that all that's going on here is a loss of a power struggle. In fact, I'm convinced there's FAR more to this story.
Lerner has an M.O. when firing people, and until this very moment, it's never involved firing someone with "just cause" in an attempt to skip out of paying.
Fans would be best served to check their instinctive emotions and wait for all the facts to come out.........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I also can't feel sorry for kokinis, he should have grown a pair and done something besides crawling into a corner in his office and hiding. .
Yeah that would have made a big difference. 
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It may have opened up a slot for a new GM but who in their right mind would want that job, seriously. What a mess.
Totally depends on what Lerner is willing to do going forward.
If he's going to keep Mangini and let him continue to have the power, then the guy Lerner is talking of hiring is going to be another wussy that doesn't have what it takes to do a great job. But of course Lerner has no choice BUT to support Mangini right now, so nothing is written in stone.
The other side of the coin...........and the one that is more likely than not to be closer to reality.........is that if Lerner is willing to finally.........FINALLY.............hand the keys to the car to someone with experience and let them drive it, then who WOULDN'T want to come here?
That person see's the following bullets:
- Owner is rich and has a long history of spending any amount of money to win
- Owner is willing to give me TOTAL control and let me run things how I see fit
Where do I sign up? 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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what scares me is that he is willing to pay Savage after the unprofessional public acts and comments where he could have made a good case against him.....
but Kokinis did something to be fired with "just cause".......
what on Earth did George do?
#gmstrong
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Or didn't do.......
edit:
Things will come out in time, and taking anything as pure fact sooner or later leads to faulty conclusions and beliefs. Having said that, if the story making the rounds is true......the one where Kok was being a chicken-chit and not doing his job........then that's a good reason for just cause.
I'll tell you one thing......I've worked with friends. I've got God-kids around because of how I go to bat for my friends. But I've had some friends work for me, and despite warnings, if they didn't/couldn't/wouldn't do their jobs, I threw them into a locked room and chewed their asses out until I either got results or their resignations. That's what it takes to be a boss, and if Kok didn't have the stones to stand up to other people in the building, then firing him was the right thing to do........even if that meant not standing up to Mangini.
Time will tell the entire story......
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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Quote:
I also can't feel sorry for kokinis, he should have grown a pair and done something besides crawling into a corner in his office and hiding. .
Yeah that would have made a big difference.
actually if this is what happened, it should have made a difference....he had a legal authority to sign off on transactions....
he could have sued or threatened to sue for breach of contract....between the PR nightmare, the $$$ involved, and the fact that maybe Lerner wasn't aware of all the gritty details....maybe he just would have become the GM that he wanted...
I agree with Toad here that there's something else we are missing
#gmstrong
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I agree with Toad here that there's something else we are missing
Thats blatantly obvious. There is something that no one is talking about and there is a blackout in Berea about it. Be patient, someone's gonna blab sooner or later.
SaintDawg™
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as there should be....i'm assuming this mess ends up in court and that is when we find out the details...
unless it is really, really heinous and Kokinis settles before it can get that far
#gmstrong
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I am now convinced that Mangini is an idiot.
On the contrary. I think he's brilliant.
Only Mangini could have created this scene.......one where he convinces someone to come be the GM while all the while keeping all the power for himself.
That's a brilliant bit of power-play.
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It aint that brilliant when you consider Lerner is the idiot he ticked into giving him all this power. Like taking candy from a baby. Lerner sees how one thing goes wrong, then does the complete opposite. Butch Davis failed and had too much power. So Lerner says "We need NFL structure where a GM evaluates and makes personnel decisions and a coach can coach em up" he also said "We need a coach with NFL experiance". Those aint exact qoutes but he said things along those lines. That dont work and Lerner has already admitted that he wants nothing to do with football decisions. So he lets Mangini feed him a bunch of crap and let him run things his way. He wants Belecheck type power, I would put everything I owned down that said Mangini has brought up Belichecks name in getting every job he has tried to get and what he learned in his organization. the same guy he ratted on. I never liked rats anyways or people that throw others under the bus. How can Mangini blame anything on Kokinis about this season. He can Lerner not see who is at fault? He looks to me like he is trying to save money by not paying Quinn and Kokinis because of all the money he threw away on his last hires and fires.
Savage played Lerner like a tool and now Mangini is playing him like a tool. I think Lerner is more mad that he is getting petitions and mad emails rather than the teams record. Its making him look bad as an owner of a product and his customers aint happy.
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Legend
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Totally depends on what Lerner is willing to do going forward.
If he's going to keep Mangini and let him continue to have the power, then the guy Lerner is talking of hiring is going to be another wussy that doesn't have what it takes to do a great job. But of course Lerner has no choice BUT to support Mangini right now, so nothing is written in stone.
The other side of the coin...........and the one that is more likely than not to be closer to reality.........is that if Lerner is willing to finally.........FINALLY.............hand the keys to the car to someone with experience and let them drive it, then who WOULDN'T want to come here?
That person see's the following bullets:
- Owner is rich and has a long history of spending any amount of money to win
- Owner is willing to give me TOTAL control and let me run things how I see fit
Where do I sign up?
Why is Lerner waiting then, if not to continue to support the guy who continues to support Daboll? Where's the upside to keeping him if EM the common denominator in all this mess? Why not cut your losses, give the rest of the year to Ryan to run and send a message to anyone considering the GM opportunity, you won't have to fire anyone, you come in and hire who you want?
Assuming a CBA is reached, deep pockets doesn't mean a whole lot with the salary cap.
Lerner gets upset at the pathetic way our team is playing and fires an admittedly worthless do-nothing GM? And the beat (beatings) goes on.
#GMSTRONG
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Lerner has an M.O. when firing people, and until this very moment, it's never involved firing someone with "just cause" in an attempt to skip out of paying.
Fans would be best served to check their instinctive emotions and wait for all the facts to come out.........
This is what i've been syaing all along,
Randy is not known for firing people at will, Randy if anything has kept people too long. randy & his lawyers know what thier doing. He didnt let Konkis go without a plan.
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Agreed...
I am not a fan of Mangini, and at this point, I do not want him on our sidelines next season.
However... This story is too one-sided. I respect Don Banks, but talking about going "behind the scenes" but only getting one side of the story isn't what I'd call reporting.
Lerner is DYING to have his side of the story out there, but he's smart enough to know that if he has any hope of winning his "with cause" case, he needs to keep his mouth shut. He's probably in trouble for saying what he's said so far.
Go Browns!!
RIP RK
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Sorry, if George K is not any more of a man than to get trampled on then he was too soft to be a position dealing with agents and such.
If Mangini is kept I will guarantee you he doesnt change the way he operates!!
You'll never change this guys personality and hunger for power. This club will sink deeper into the cistern it's already in and Lerner can place the blame squarley on his own head!
Lerner needs to jettison this oaf ASAP!!!! I wouldnt have my people work in an office where there allegiances need be split!!!! Your allegiance is to the Cleveland Browns!!!!
If they don't off this guy my allegiance can't help but suffer that's for sure!
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All Pro
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According to sources, Lerner asked Kokinis to resign, and when Kokinis refused, made it clear to Kokinis the club would seek a dismissal "for cause,'' citing a lack of performance of his duties as GM. That would allow the Browns to contend they have no obligation to pay the balance of the five-year contract (at about $1 million per year) it gave Kokinis in January.
"They're going to look at his phone records and try to make some case that says he was trying to give away trade secrets to other teams or something,'' a league source said. "But it's not going to stick. It won't work. They're just trying to find something to prove a lack of performance.''
This makes me think less of Lerner. He hired the guy, he needs to own up to that decision. I'm sure he's sick of still paying Romeo and Phil and having George added to that list is a lot of dead money, but nevertheless, he needs to own up to his mistakes.
I want Lerner and Mangini gone. Neither exhibit traits that I want in an owner or coach.
I actually feel bad for George. He came from a great job with the Ratbirds...but he will get paid for leaving though.
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I want Lerner and Mangini gone. Neither exhibit traits that I want in an owner or coach.
Im with you 100% on that one.
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Can't say I totally disagree, but Lerner isn't going anywhere so that point is moot.
I wish we could know for a fact that Mangini can right the ship, but I don't see it.
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Why is Lerner waiting then, if not to continue to support the guy who continues to support Daboll? Where's the upside to keeping him if EM the common denominator in all this mess? Why not cut your losses, give the rest of the year to Ryan to run and send a message to anyone considering the GM opportunity, you won't have to fire anyone, you come in and hire who you want?
I played golf yesterday. It was 75 degrees. 
(Hope that made you stop and take a breath, Tulsa, hehe)
What is gained by firing Mangini? Who's to say that Lerner really doesn't believe in Mangini? All we really know is that Lerner didn't believe in Kok, which doesn't have anything to do with Mangini.
I'm going to take quite a few leaps of logic here to try and help paint the picture of what I believe is going on. I don't have enough facts to actually STATE what's going on, so keep that in mind.......
Lerner fired Kok which is a SEPARATE situation than Mangini.
Just because Lerner can't say he doesn't believe in Mangini doesn't mean he really doesn't believe in him. (er....yeah *L*)
Lerner pointed the finger back at Opie when Opie opened his mouth. That indicates Lerner knows and accepts that Mangini was handed a mess. In a QB driven league, Mangini got Anderson and Quinn. Ouch. That doesn't excuse the mistakes Mangini has made, but EVERY coach in the league makes mistakes. Lerner also understands that.
Now, who's to say Ryan is ready to be an interim coach? I've seen it many times on this board that he should be named acting coach. But his defense hasn't been very good, and he's made mistakes as well. Frankly, I don't see him or his brother as ever being good head coaches. In today's NFL, they are too much of a pair of loose cannons. However, that's my opinion separate from this discussion. There isn't any justifiable reason to say Ryan is a better HC than Mangini. And we have to remember that just because Mangini is the "common denominator" the buck stops at Lerner, and Lerner chose Kok.
Really, firing Mangini right now doesn't make for a better situation going into the offseason. It actually makes it worse because it might suggest Lerner is willing to fire someone just a handful of games into something without just cause (pun intended  ). When a new President or GM comes in they already will know they can fire Mangini if they wish, so doing it now doesn't change that situation at all.
People are mad. So am I. I'm mad at Lerner for screwing this thing up time after time. I'm mad at Opie for picking the wrong players and being an all-around idiot. I'm mad at Kok for being a wussy. I'm mad at Mangini for screwin' up the QB situation at the beginning of the year. But being mad doesn't cloud my logic, and that logic says firing Mangini does nothing for us right now.
People were predisposed to dislike Mangini. So anything he did wrong was just lighting the fuse on a powder-keg that was ready to be blown. When James Davis went down and word leaked out it was illegal, fans had already come to the conclusion that it was Mangini's fault.
But it wasn't. He did nothing wrong.
So people are ready to fire him because of this mess. I say doing it at this point is just too early and a result of people being mad, feeding off of their predispositions towards Mangini.
Being patient with this is the best policy. If Lerner brings in a guy to run things, Mangini won't stand a chance and people will be happy, but firing him now and naming Ryan the interim coach doesn't do anything for us. In fact, history strongly points out that interim coaches do nothing for teams. It's better to evaluate Mangini than it is to just fire him.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Firing Mangini now loses us nothing except Mangini. Which, from what I've seen, is a good thing. It gives us a jump on next year and gets someone, that from all appearances, no one but ex-Jets like out of the picture. Ryan cannot be a worse choice than Mangini has been. Not even an apparent Ryan-hater such as yourself can seriously imply that. The Defense, saddled with ex-Jets and injuries, is better than you're willing to give it credit for. God knows we'd be losing by 50 points a game if they played to the level of the Offense. Saying that no one would want the GM and coaching jobs because he fired the predecessors 8 games in has some validity. But as you're often quick to tell us money talks. Lerner opens the checkbook and Holmgren or Gruden or Cowher or whoever will walk right in and tell us how they're looking forward to the challenge. Certainly, in this scenario Randy is out another $10 million or so but I'd have a lot more sympathy for his plight if he wasn't: A. The reason we're in this mess and B. A billionaire. Do I think he'll can Mangenius now? No. But if you think Mangini makes it to next year if we continue to look like this I think you need to back off the Johnny Walker and start sipping bottled water.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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People were predisposed to dislike Mangini. So anything he did wrong was just lighting the fuse on a powder-keg that was ready to be blown. When James Davis went down and word leaked out it was illegal, fans had already come to the conclusion that it was Mangini's fault.
AMEN Brother...Say it again...Preach On.....PREACH ON!!!!!!
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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In recent weeks, Kokinis knew his influence had diminished so dramatically within the organization in relation to Mangini's that sources said he was not surprised by his removal Monday. Browns president Mike Kennan and vice-president of football administration Dawn Aponte are believed to have aligned themselves with Mangini in the power struggle, further isolating Kokinis within his own building. did not return any results.
Interesting if true..if so dude was railroaded big time..what the heck are they doing siding with anyone??
That is why I agree a strong person needs to come in and squash any of this nonsense..and that person should have a large say in whether Manpolen stays..I don't pretend to know who's coming but I do know this..if RL gets the right person in here..they'll see to it Manpoleon is phased out and anyone else who rides in his boat.
If that article isa true or close to being accurate..too bad Kokopuffs didn't have the menatlity to bring the roof down and expose what was happening..no way the ones under him should be walking all over him..he needed to squash it.. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/11/05/browns/index.htmlLerner denies firing Kokinis, seeks NFL general to help shape Browns Story Highlights Randy Lerner: 'George is no longer active within our organization' Lerner said he 'began to have doubts' about Kokinis in training camp Browns considering a Bill Parcells-type leader to help guide Eric Mangini PRINT EMAIL Buzz up! FACEBOOK DIGG TWITTER RSS SHARE George Kokinis was hired last January to be the Cleveland Browns general manager. AP Cleveland Browns owner Randy Lerner, under fire after parting ways with general manager George Kokinis midway through his first season as GM, denied today that Kokinis had been fired and said he hoped to find a veteran NFL general manager-type like Ernie Accorsi or Mike Holmgren to help shape the organization and help embattled coach Eric Mangini. "George is no longer active within our organization, but at this time has not been fired,'' Lerner said in a telephone interview. This could be simple semantics because it's widely expected the Browns will attempt to cancel the remainder of Kokinis' five-year contract without paying him, citing "for cause'' and contending that he wasn't doing his job. The story is shrouded in mystery, and Lerner no-commented almost all specific elements of it. He said he "began to have doubts'' about Kokinis by training camp, but wouldn't be specific. Click here to read Don Banks' analysis on the Browns debacle, including comments from sources close to Kokinis. Lerner has to be wondering about the kind of work environment Mangini has created, now that two of the people the coach wanted to help him shape the organization -- director of team operations Erin O'Brien, brought in from the Jets by Mangini, and Kokinis, hired away from the Ravens -- have left the team in the past couple of weeks, and no one will explain their departures. "It's not a happy building to be working in right now,'' said one source who is friendly with many Browns employees. That could be one of the reasons Lerner wants a veteran NFL leader in the building -- to see not only why the Browns are a woebegone 1-7 with little hope for the future, but also why the first 10 months of the Mangini regime have gone so haywire. NFL sources have told SI.com's Don Banks that almost from the time Kokinis took over as GM last winter that Mangini didn't live up to the terms of Kokinis' contract, which mandated that the GM had final control of the 53-man roster. Another league source said he has been told the Browns will contend that Kokinis never tried to assert that authority, despite repeated attempts from the organization higher-ups urging him to take a stronger role in team affairs. If that's the case, then the team likely has documented his perceived failings. The Browns have had a disastrous year, dating to the firing of general manager Phil Savage with four years left on his contract and coach Romeo Crennel with three remaining years. The Browns owe Savage and Crennel an estimated $21 million. Mangini is in the first year of a reported four-year, $12-million deal, while Kokinis was believed to be making slightly more than $1 million per year. If the team parts ways with Mangini after the season, that's another $9 million the Browns will owe a former employee. Asked about Mangini's fate, Lerner said, "I still believe in Eric, and we're trying to give him the resources he needs to be successful. We all knew the situation we were in when Eric took over.'' Lerner wouldn't comment on specific candidates to take the role of organizational godfather, but he's clearly looking for a Bill Parcells-type leader who'd be able to help Mangini -- or his successor -- navigate the minefields of the job. Accorsi retired from the Giants in January 2007, while Holmgren stepped down as Seattle coach last January after formerly being both coach and general manager. Accorsi has told the Cleveland Plain Dealer he's not interested in a full-time job. But these two men clearly fit the profile of what Lerner wants -- a man who has had Super Bowl success and helped build winning franchises. The Browns' owner will have a difficult decision to make after the season. Cleveland will have a high first-round draft choice in April, with a major need at quarterback, and the quarterback crop will be strong. The Savage-Crennel regime drafted Brady Quinn in 2007, but Mangini never had a strong belief in Quinn. So after 10 quarters at the helm of the team in September, Quinn was replaced by Derek Anderson, who has performed miserably. Even if Quinn gets the job back sometime this year, it will be by default. Sources say there's no way the team will bring back Quinn in 2010. If Lerner has major doubts about Mangini come January, his decision about whether to go after a new coach will be doubly difficult. If Lerner thinks Mangini might be a short-timer, he could be inclined to plunge into the deep pool of coaching candidates come the offseason
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 11/06/09 03:13 PM.
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Firing Mangini now loses us nothing except Mangini. Which, from what I've seen, is a good thing.
That's your opinion, but firing him for the sake of firing him doesn't do anything for the team, and likely undermines Lerner's position going forward.
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It gives us a jump on next year and gets someone
That doesn't even remotely begin to give us a "jump on next year."
Lener says he wants to bring a person in. That person would have input on a new coach. So firing Mangini doesn't give us a jump on anything.
It only makes you feel better. 
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Ryan cannot be a worse choice than Mangini has been.
Ahhhhh..............Now we get to the heart of your opinion: Make a change for the sake of making a change.
That doesn't work. It's flawed logic, and comes back to the only logical conclusion available: You want Mangini fired, and nothing else matters.
That's your opinion to which you are entitled, but thinking about ONLY Mangini and not the rest of the picture is flawed logic.
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But if you think Mangini makes it to next year if we continue to look like this
Did I say that, or did you just need another excuse to make a quip?
If the team does continue like this, Lerner may have no choice, but doing it during the bye-week? No sense in that.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Behind the Browns debacle: Kokinis
lost power struggle with Mangini
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