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Sorry Duty,but it was a Republican president who pulled us out of Vietnem,not Jane Fonda and her buddies.
I thought and still think Jane Fonda went too far. I still have a grudge about that. But she didn't pull us out of Vietnam. Please remember who did. And if you have ill feelings about the withdraw,at least be willing to place the blame on the shoulders of the man who did it.
JMHO
The reason we withdrew Pit , was because what was going on back here.
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All Pro
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Why are unconvinced Americans the bad guy for not buying the pitch for the war? Americans were convinced in WWII to win the war in 3 years. Is it really our fault for not being convinced?
Go Irish!
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Just remember you are telling a Soldier who is the one who volunteered and the one over there...that they are wrong how they "FEEL" and Interpret any lack of support as if they are the ones who DON'T GET IT.
Thats about the same lines as me saying PMS, MENOPAUSE, GIVING BIRTH is no big deal and women are "WRONG" in bringing that up as discomfort or a sacrifice.
In other words - who am I to tell a woman how she feels is WRONG when I don't have a clue.
That's probably one of the dumbest analogy I've heard in my life.....but okay.
The rest of your post was good though. 
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Just remember you are telling a Soldier who is the one who volunteered and the one over there...that they are wrong how they "FEEL" and Interpret any lack of support as if they are the ones who DON'T GET IT.
Thats about the same lines as me saying PMS, MENOPAUSE, GIVING BIRTH is no big deal and women are "WRONG" in bringing that up as discomfort or a sacrifice.
In other words - who am I to tell a woman how she feels is WRONG when I don't have a clue.
That's probably one of the dumbest analogy I've heard in my life.....but okay.
I agree. If it was to say we shouldn't talk about something until we've walked in those shoes, then ANYONE that hasn't served in war should just shut the hell up -- for or against? Sure thing. Same with football, Tab....remember that.
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If it was to say we shouldn't talk about something until we've walked in those shoes, then ANYONE that hasn't served in war should just shut the hell up --
You could refine that further to not just include "a war" but to mean "THIS war".... since all wars are different in public perception, international opinion, etc....
yebat' Putin
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So true.
Go Irish!
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If it was to say we shouldn't talk about something until we've walked in those shoes, then ANYONE that hasn't served in war should just shut the hell up --
You could refine that further to not just include "a war" but to mean "THIS war".... since all wars are different in public perception, international opinion, etc....
No, see....that's the thing. You can't pick and choose which subjects you let those that haven't been there talk about. 
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We each have the right to express our opinions concerning the campaign in Iraq. We have a patriotic responsibility to express our concerns and to question the directives issued.
One of the biggest failures of the Bush Administration in regards to the operation in Afghanistan and Iraq is the inability to lay out the significance of the war effort. This is an historic conflict which pits an age old religious theory in a political movement against a newer,freer political power movement.
Islam is the vehicle used to justify an archaic form of control of government that pits theocracy versus Western Republicanism.
Islamic Militancy refuses to coincide with Western forms of gov't in the lands that have been controlled previously by Islamic clerics. The will of the citizens matters little as the imams use force,brutality and coersion to reverse any democratic advances in those nations. They plan on spreading their viewpoint by any force necessary where Islam was once supreme such as Spain and other European Mediterranean nations.
In the other nations of Europe their plan is simple...overwhelm by sheer numbers of citizens. France and the Scandanavian nations are targets and before long will be passed the tipping point.
The American Republican form of gov't cannot coexist with the Islamic form of government as the Western lands attempt to be religion neutral...here is the conflict where we must resist Islamic laws based on strict adherence to Shuriia law.
A showdown is natural and necessary....question is do we continue the conflict which has begun in Afghanistan/Iraq or do we leave and hope the Islamics change their plans for spreading their form of government thru murder and mayhem of innocents.
Historical persrective is necessary and we are at our crossroads.
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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One question I have Ralphie...................
We have seen how we "draw the terrorists to us" to some extent in Iraq. So why wouldn't that have worked just as well had we concentrated our efforts in Afghanastan?
Some people I can discuss these things with in a fairly productive and rational manner and some I can not. In many cases,we can. So I'm addressing this to you directly.
That's where the confusion lies with me. We already had a war front to draw the terrorist groups into. We had every legitimate reason and much world support to be there. As of now,things aren't going great in either war front. So I'm just confused as to why they felt such an urgent need to go into Iraq. It seems that the timing and strategy was very rushed and I was wondering your opinion on that?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I do. There are soldiers with differing views on this war. There is no "one way the soldiers feel". Because like all Americans,they each have their own opinions.
The sad thing is when people make an attempt to silence your views cloaked by a veil of patriotism. There's nothing patriotic about keeping your freedom of speech and opinions quiete.
Nothing patriotic about those who wish to silence oposing views by trying to suggest you're somehow less than patriotic or don't support our troops. It's pure propeganda in it's truest form. And there's nothing patriotic about that.
I support this view.
And yes, you can be against the war but for the troops. Just because I don't agree with the cause doesn't mean I don't care about the lives at risk, the real human beings and their families.
In high school I was involved in a group that was originally campaigning for John Kerry's election, but after the election it switched to raising funds for care packages for the troops. We all obviously were against the meaning of the war, but wanted to support those who are risking their lives for our country, whether it's right or not that they're there.
EDIT: My floormate is in the Air Force Reserve and will be called into Iraq eventually, her boyfriend is also in Iraq as we speak. She's against the war too, so's her boyfriend.
Last edited by Ammo; 02/06/07 04:27 PM.
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I've been telling people on this board, "Go to Iraq and tell all those troops that you support them, but don't support what they are doing and see what kind of reaction you get."
I do it all the time. Constantly. I get the same reaction almost everytime - 'Thank you very much for your support.'
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Once the Taliban were on notice we turned to the real reason for being there---Iraq. Hussein and his 2 inbreed male children had committed terrible war crimes-purposely not incidentally. We believed that he still had chemical and viral agents such as he used against the Kurds a decade before and the intel showed his WMD had not been destroyed as of yet.
We underestimated and overestimated in our war prep. We overestimated the Iraqis desire to govern themselves...it appears the greatest freedom they experience is to grab a weapon and kill a neighbor who follows a different line of succession from the prophet Mohammed.
We underestimated the ability of Syria and Iran to undermine our efforts at stability in Iraq. Iran fought an intensive war versus Iraq several years before this conflict but it seems that tribal allegiances to 700 year old clerics who clashed for political reasons carries more weight than freedom to be free from bondage.
I don't believe the preparation was rushed...I believe that the Western mind has trouble understanding people who freely choose to be subjugated in many ways by phony men of God interested in bloodletting to satisfy their belief in Allah's will!
This conflict will be coming to a neighborhood near you in the next 5 years or so.
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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The "western mind"? Colin Powell warned them about these very things.
Could it be that "some" western minds simply chose to listen to poor advice? See,that's what I find so confusing.The person who had a LOT of previous experience with the situation in Iraq,was ignored?
And honestly Ralphie,with U.N. inspectors in country,U2 spy planes flying overhead,I just don't see the need for such a rush. They were in check for the time being. We easily could have handled Afghanastan first.
I just seriously hope we don't find out later that this thing was "scripted" and that intel was cherry picked to paint the picture people wanted us to see. I mean it's already pretty well established that they knew no yellow cake had been acquired by Sadaam in Niger,but reported that as "fact" to the American people. I just hope there's no "smoking gun" that makes this thing get any uglier than it already is.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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You seem to have an abiding love for Mr. Powell. While you propose his opinion as the single voice crying out for validation we had many more generals who saw things differently. While I honor and respect Gen. Powell for his great service we need to remember that he was always more of a State Dept. guy rather than Dept. of Defense guy.
Not stating that State is not important but often conflicts with Defense and sometimes for personal reasons.
Pitdawg...you asked for my assessment and I gave it. I would not be at all suprised if the intel was cherry picked...nor would I be suprised if virtually every President cherry picked the advice he received to fit his position. Hell Man.... these are politicians!
At this point the conflict is engaged and the long War has begun. To assume we should stop the battle against these crazies because we embellished the truth concerning one certain event is "WELL,CRAZY"!
Yes, it is not kosher....but when you are up to your neck in gators it is too late to remember to drain the swamp!
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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Fair enough. I think you were pretty honest and forthright in both your responses. You know we don't see eye to eye on this war. But I feel at least you give an honest answer to my questions and address the issues. That's why I sometimes direct the questions to you. Thanks for your replies.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I don't want our soldiers in Iraq dying, and don't understand how it is interpreted as not supporting those that have died.
Many of those soldiers see the anti war sentiment as a political ploy. They are disappointed to see the people back home not supporting their mission as something meaningful and for a good cause. The message they are getting is that they are fighting and dying for nothing.
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I never supported why we are there, and never will. I have that right, and our soldiers are protecting that. My grandfather taught me that he fought in WWII so people could disagree, even if he disagreed with them. 
You are absolutely correct. I just think that the soldiers in the video and many others who share their feelings deserve to have their side of the story told.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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They are disappointed to see the people back home not supporting their mission as something meaningful and for a good cause.
Man, this may sound wrong but IMO that is exactly what it has turned out to be...meaningless . Public opinion is greatly against this war . Our leaders failed the troops in the field and now are trying to play catchup , they failed to understand that the mindset of and the resolve of the insurgents and now they are looking to dump this civil war at the feet of an Iraqi government that is embarassingly incompetent . I hope I am wrong and that each and every supporter of this fiasco can call me out on it once I have been proven wrong. But from my point of view it ain't gonna happen. Blind faith in anything has never been my style and I tend to question everything, a trait that got me crap burning detail in the first Gulf War , and an invitation not to reenlist after it was over . Got jaded somewhere between year one and four.
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How about this... Pull the troops out... Neutron Bomb Central Iraq. Send the troops back in an occupy a pacified country... War won. No insurgency. Everybody happy.
If your going to win a war...Win it. Don't half-way do it. That's what the whole problem is... Half way measures....
Nuke 'em all.... Let God sort 'em out...
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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I forgot about another friend of mine who just joined the Marines and her boyfriend is a Marine. Both of them are against the war too.
Then on the flipside, my friend's older brother is in the Army and he's a staunch supporter of the war.
It is purely subjective, this guy doesn't represent everyone. I definitely find it amusing when people say "If you don't support the war, you don't support the troops!"
Supporting the war means you support the (false) cause for getting into this war.
Supporting the troops means you hope they kick ass and make it home safely.
It's two completely different things.
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"I agree. If it was to say we shouldn't talk about something until we've walked in those shoes, then ANYONE that hasn't served in war should just shut the hell up -- for or against?"
Don't make crapola up! I'm not going to play along in the debate.
How can in your warped holier than thou crusade interpret that as what I said.
Its simple - until you've walked in those shoes...how can you interpret what they feel as Right or Wrong. That is all I said. As far as my poor analogy...thats cause you aren't a man obviously and don't know the confusion we have with women on those subjects...simple cause we truly don't understand and walk in those shoes. That was my analogy. Obviously for a woman to agree with the analogy probably would take a good imagination...cause it was written on the point of view of a male. But its about as good as I can get on one regarding really knowing about a subject matter.
But as for the subject of war. Please have an opinion...you and Pit and who ever.
But don't go fooling yourself with the notion that you are against the war but support the troops. Go ahead and keep telling yourself that but call a spade a spade...its to make you feel good.
Ummm...its an all volunteer military. there is no draft. The media with their agenda will hilight on the very very very few that protest within the military.
Right now there's a guy from the Washington Post saying that those over there are Mercenaries and not Patriots... that they deserve to be spit on when they come home. This man has appeared on NBC news over 80 times as a Military expert. Of course his service as has been to Green Peace and Civil Rights activist. Its just the beginning.
And you all are getting sucked right into it. But keep telling yourselves that you are against the war but support the troops. I say I don't want to get involved with your politics one way or another...I got bigger fish to fry - if you wish to really save lives.
Pure and simple its how the vast majority of the soldiers feel and react to your protests over here. If you wish do deny it go right ahead and "FEEL GOOD".
Are you aware that in a recent Anti-War demonstration a Amputee Soldier countered with his FREEDOM of SPEECH and expressed his view in demonstration with his Placard. He was spit on over 100 times from the so called - my Constitutional rights to protest brothers of yours out there.
Go ahead get sucked into it believe what you believe it is your right and I will die for your rights. But you are only kidding yourself if you say you support the troops...its your right to do whatever it is you feel is right. But I've heard even a retort that "THEY ARE WRONG" for feeling that way...its almost comical. Its the way it is.
As mentioned its a very emotional subject on both parts...I really, doubt I will convince you in changing your thoughts and will stop trying and vice versa as I am as set in my ways as you are. I tried to keep opinion of the war subject right or wrong out. Go in whatever direction you wish - its your right to have an opinon. But you are lying to yourselves by saying you "SUPPORT THE TROOPS". As mentioned the day the troops understand your attentions and agree with your sentiments then its is not supporting. But the spitting on the soldiers has already started with the Anti-War activists. I know you don't agree with that action. But its being done.
So enough - you won't see me on this subject or else we will be spitting on each other soon...lol  I don't want that. I'll stick to football its easier.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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" Why are unconvinced Americans the bad guy for not buying the pitch for the war? Americans were convinced in WWII to win the war in 3 years. Is it really our fault for not being convinced?"
Actually there were strong Anti-War activists during WWII as well.
Coincidently...almost all ceased after Russia got involved.
When you see the Socialist countries in Europe get active in the War against terrorism - again you'll see the media switch around...all of a sudden war will be OK. Funny how that works. 
okay now I'm really going...lol now I remember why I don't visit the Tailgate...too much politics.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Just remember you are telling a Soldier who is the one who volunteered and the one over there...that they are wrong how they "FEEL" and Interpret any lack of support as if they are the ones who DON'T GET IT.
Thats about the same lines as me saying PMS, MENOPAUSE, GIVING BIRTH is no big deal and women are "WRONG" in bringing that up as discomfort or a sacrifice.
In other words - who am I to tell a woman how she feels is WRONG when I don't have a clue.
That's probably one of the dumbest analogy I've heard in my life.....but okay.
The rest of your post was good though.
Completely agree, I was just shaking my head on that one. 
Anyway, I stand by what I said, if the soldiers feel that the majority of people who are against the war do not support them then, in my opinion, they are very wrong. I can make that observation without spending a day in the military.
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You're WRONG eo.
I've sent care packages,Christmas cards and letters to troops supporting them. Your "OPINION" has nothing to do with reality!
I've always supported our troops! It's just that your narrow minded view can't grasp the concept. Don't blame me for that.
It's their commander and Chief who has let them down,not me. Pi$$ poor strategy and "humanitarian war" that's the problem,not me. False judgements and false pretexts that have created this situation,not American citizens!
You have your "OPINION" but quit calling it "FACT" and judging others! You aren't all that and a bag of chips and have no right to proclaim you know anything about how people like me feel about "supporing our troops".
I've probably done as much or more to correspond and send things to our troops than half the people on here "claiming" to support them!
And you might as well face it,a LOT of troops share the sentiments and beliefs of the anti-war sentiment. Besides,if the president was "fighting it to win" instead of sticking to his "same old broken strategy" many of us could be more supportive of "HIS decisions". But he's not,so we don't!
Get a grip Bud!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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How can in your warped holier than thou crusade interpret that as what I said.
LMAO, anyone that knows me knows I don't have that kind of 'tude. You, however...we all know you do. So, don't turn YOUR stuff around to look like it's my issue.
Also, don't tell me what I can and cannot support and YOUR reasons for it.
The military is volunteer, sure, but that has zero to do with supporting the troops and makes no difference. If it wasn't volunteer, they would draft them, so I'm thankful for those that actually want to do that job.
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if the soldiers feel that the majority of people who are against the war do not support them then, in my opinion, they are very wrong.
They may BE wrong... but you have just entered into that zone where perception becomes reality.
If I'm overly harsh on my child and he THINKS I don't love him, does it really matter if I do? I could love the kid with all my heart but if he thinks I don't, then what good is it? Sure, someday 20 years from now he MIGHT realize that what I did, I did out of love but is that going to change anything?
So if the soldiers don't THINK they are supported, then all of your knowledge to the contrary is pretty much useless. Their perception is really the only thing that matters here....
yebat' Putin
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So are you advocating we change our opinions or keep silent because of how some soldiers "percieve" things?
Do we change our beliefs and keep quite to please a "percentage" of our troops?
Then what about the troops who don't support the war? Should those who "support the president and the war" also be expected to remain silent on their views as well?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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You just hit it, DC. That's what eo and I have been trying to say. Pit and others are saying that we are stating our opinion as fact. Well, it IS a fact that soldiers are saying that THEY FEEL like they aren't being supported. That is a fact. How can we be wrong in citing exactly what the soldiers in this clip said? It's rather simple. These soldiers said they don't feel like the anti-war people are supporting them. No matter how much anyone says otherwise, it doesn't change how those soldiers feel. We can sit here all day and say how they are wrong, though I agree with them, it doesn't matter. Saying "nuh uh" isn't going to change how THEY feel. As you said, their perception is their reality.
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But it's not our reality, so whatever. I'm sure they think every single one of the care packages and letters they receive come from people that fully support this war? Not really sure how that can be true when something like less than 30% support it now days.
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Let's use this analogy...
Let's say you're a Browns fan, but you HATED what Botch was doing, the Browns players are the troops, and you think their gameplan/draft philosophy was misguided.
You still cheered for the Browns every Sunday, even though you didn't like what's going on with the coaching staff or FO.
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I already tried an example using the Browns....must've went right over their heads because nobody said anything.  But, they will say "this is different". Watch. 
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It may not be your reality, but they are the ones that are laying their lives on the line. If it is their feelings that are "wrong" then it is those that are making them feel this way to actually do something to change that misconception. It sounds like those that are anti-war are kinda just shrugging their shoulders and saying too bad that's how they feel. IF that is the case, as it sounds, is that REALLY supporting the troops? Wouldn't it be more supportive to be considering how to change that misconception, if there is one, rather than just say they're wrong as some have done on this post?
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Thats a very good analogy IMO. We are 100% with the troops but most Americans hate the reason why they are there.
Our honor defend, we will fight to the end, for OHIO! GO BUCKS!
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How would you suggest I do that...get on my camel and ride over to Iraq?
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Sorry, I rarely compare an objective of winning a game that in the grand scheme of life means next to nothing to a war on terrorism and the loss of massive numbers of life. If you don't see the difference, I see no need to comment further.
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Pit, I'm not advocating anything. Citizens have a wide variety of opinions, soldiers have a wide variety of opinions, legislators have a wide variety of opinions.... I'm sure the soldiers in the field understand that... but in the end, all that really matters is how they FEEL..... and if they feel like they aren't supported, then they aren't...... do with that whatever you want.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,431
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,431 |
Coach, what the hell are you talking about ? I don't recall anyone saying that the troops who feel that they aren't supported were wrong for their opinions . How can you be wrong about an OPINION ? Some may not agree with the opinion given but saying a person is wrong for having one ...??? I am not following your argument .
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,732
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,732 |
Oh my, don't you know what an analogy is?
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659
Poser
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Poser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659 |
"Anyway, I stand by what I said, if the soldiers feel that the majority of people who are against the war do not support them then, in my opinion, they are very wrong."
That's just one of the quotes.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,955
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,955 |
OMG...that is IRE's opinion. Doesn't make him right or wrong...it's what he feels. You want to say he is wrong for stating his feelings??
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659
Poser
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Poser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659 |
Ire said he didn't see where anyone was saying the troops were wrong. I posted a quote. I never said he was wrong. Geez, follow the actual thread and what is actually said. I never said anyone's opinions were wrong. I said that others are saying the troops are wrong and provided a quote. Keep up
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum US Troops: "If you're going to
support us, support us all the
way".
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