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thank you....I could not remember those details on it.
#gmstrong
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Brees may have had a slight brush with that category, but people are putting waaaaaaaaay too much revisionist history on that saga.
In Brees first two years, he put up QB ratings of 94.8 and 76.9. He had a bad third year, S.D. panicked, and took Rivers.
Rivers holds out, Brees puts up 3,000+ yards, 27 TD's and 7 INT's.
Chargers franchise Brees. He puts up 3,500+ with 24 TD's.
Brees ends up signing with the Saints for 6 years $60 mil.
The way people tell it sometimes, dude was almost out of the league.
Back when Brees was going to be traded by the Chargers your hero Toad and I had a chat on here about getting him and Toad had no interest in Brees. I guess that can tell ya something about his Qb evaluating abilities! 
'My hero'?
Don't get me wrong, I like Toad...but our conversations are few and far between...where did that come from? 
Corpus has always had a screw loose, so take it all with a grain. I mean for God sakes, he works at a beer plant. You KNOW he's drunk all the time.
Besides, that Brees conversation isn't even remotely close to telling the entire conversation. If it were anyone but Corpus, I'd feel the need to tell the full story, but I don't. What else does that tell ya. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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We should have done exactly what the Chargers did and some of us were screaming to do it... Quinn holds out and DA has a pro-bowl season... Trade DA for maybe a first, at least a second round pick at the height of his popularity... Turn the reigns over to Quinn on a high note instead of the few times he has been given the team, which was in turmoil... But we didn't... 
yebat' Putin
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Yep that whole offseason is by far imo the worst the Browns have had since rebirth (and that's saying something). He doesn't take the picks offered for DA by Dallas (rumored to be a 1st and 3rd). He then trades what amounts to basically the parts of 2 drafts to acquire S.Rogers (for a 3rd...the only good move), C. Williams (for a 2nd.....wish we had that one over), M. Rucker, B. Bell, and Paul Hubbard.
Imo this accompanied with the Quinn trade(what amounted to a 1st and a 2nd) is what has us in such a funk today. You simply cannot trade away picks for high priced vets, and waste them on prospects trading up.
I liked what Opie did his 1st couple of years here, but after that his lack of a plan and philosophy really showed through, and is why he isn't here today..........along with the other stuff we learned upon his firing.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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All Pro
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We should have done exactly what the Chargers did and some of us were screaming to do it...
Quinn holds out and DA has a pro-bowl season...
Trade DA for maybe a first, at least a second round pick at the height of his popularity...
Turn the reigns over to Quinn on a high note instead of the few times he has been given the team, which was in turmoil...
But we didn't...
One problem: Brees had a second good year after his first one to prove it wasn't a fluke. DA did not. Savage screwed some things, but he did the right thing with DA. didn't know what he had in Quinn (who he maybe shouldn't have drafted in the first place, but that's another story), and no one was offering a first for DA (despite the rumors that were swirling). If Quinn bombed, he was an idiot for trading DA. If DA had a second great year, he could trade for high picks. He didn't have any leverage there and trading either was a huge risk.
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Yep that whole offseason is by far imo the worst the Browns have had since rebirth (and that's saying something). He doesn't take the picks offered for DA by Dallas (rumored to be a 1st and 3rd). He then trades what amounts to basically the parts of 2 drafts to acquire S.Rogers (for a 3rd...the only good move), C. Williams (for a 2nd.....wish we had that one over), M. Rucker, B. Bell, and Paul Hubbard.
That's simpy not accurate....
If you look at it as 1 draft class, it reads:
Quinn
Williams
Rogers
Bell
Rucker
Rubin
Hubbard
Hall
That's a PBowl NT, a decent DE and 2 promising late round projects in Hall and Rubin in a "class" where your headliner was a 1st round QB, which is always hit ot miss....if Quinn was a hit, we'd be heralding Savage for the BEST offseason ever....
my point is: Quinn is simply the kicker....the rest of the "draft" 2nd to 7th round is simply great by the fact alone to have gotten a PBowl NT in his prime...the rest could have been complete duds (which they are not), I wouldn't care and this offseason was already a win....Quinn makes it a bad offseason, because the 1st rounder can'T be a miss...but we know about 1st round QBs, it's not easy....but lamenting about the rest is just dumb bashing....I would ALWAYS trade away my 2nd and 3rd rounder for a 27/28yo PBowl player at an important position....do that every year and your a big PO contender quick
oh and on why we didn't trade DA: are you nuts? He was young and looked really good, he made throws only 4-5 QBs in this league make....looking at Quinn now in year 3, I won't even wanna know how bad he looked to the coaches and Savage in year 1....how could you shoulder that risk? Keeping DA was a no brainer....also: BQ was MUCH cheaper than Rivers since he was drafted later...River's contract forced SD's hand, BQ's didn't necessarily force ours...hindsight, I know but Savage played it good at the time
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Brees may have had a slight brush with that category, but people are putting waaaaaaaaay too much revisionist history on that saga.
In Brees first two years, he put up QB ratings of 94.8 and 76.9. He had a bad third year, S.D. panicked, and took Rivers.
Rivers holds out, Brees puts up 3,000+ yards, 27 TD's and 7 INT's.
Chargers franchise Brees. He puts up 3,500+ with 24 TD's.
Brees ends up signing with the Saints for 6 years $60 mil.
The way people tell it sometimes, dude was almost out of the league.
Back when Brees was going to be traded by the Chargers your hero Toad and I had a chat on here about getting him and Toad had no interest in Brees. I guess that can tell ya something about his Qb evaluating abilities!
'My hero'?
Don't get me wrong, I like Toad...but our conversations are few and far between...where did that come from?
If Toad and Karl Marxx were hanging off a cliff and you could only save one of them, Which would you save....
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If Toad and Karl Marxx were hanging off a cliff and you could only save one of them, Which would you save....
That's easy...Toad! Because I don't know Karl Marxx
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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Yep that whole offseason is by far imo the worst the Browns have had since rebirth (and that's saying something). He doesn't take the picks offered for DA by Dallas (rumored to be a 1st and 3rd). He then trades what amounts to basically the parts of 2 drafts to acquire S.Rogers (for a 3rd...the only good move), C. Williams (for a 2nd.....wish we had that one over), M. Rucker, B. Bell, and Paul Hubbard.
That's simpy not accurate....
If you look at it as 1 draft class, it reads:
Quinn
Williams
Rogers
Bell
Rucker
Rubin
Hubbard
Hall
That's a PBowl NT, a decent DE and 2 promising late round projects in Hall and Rubin in a "class" where your headliner was a 1st round QB, which is always hit ot miss....if Quinn was a hit, we'd be heralding Savage for the BEST offseason ever....
my point is: Quinn is simply the kicker....the rest of the "draft" 2nd to 7th round is simply great by the fact alone to have gotten a PBowl NT in his prime...the rest could have been complete duds (which they are not), I wouldn't care and this offseason was already a win....Quinn makes it a bad offseason, because the 1st rounder can'T be a miss...but we know about 1st round QBs, it's not easy....but lamenting about the rest is just dumb bashing....I would ALWAYS trade away my 2nd and 3rd rounder for a 27/28yo PBowl player at an important position....do that every year and your a big PO contender quick
oh and on why we didn't trade DA: are you nuts? He was young and looked really good, he made throws only 4-5 QBs in this league make....looking at Quinn now in year 3, I won't even wanna know how bad he looked to the coaches and Savage in year 1....how could you shoulder that risk? Keeping DA was a no brainer....also: BQ was MUCH cheaper than Rivers since he was drafted later...River's contract forced SD's hand, BQ's didn't necessarily force ours...hindsight, I know but Savage played it good at the time
it absolutely amazes me how pro-Savage you are since you are so anti-Mangini. i would understand more i suppose if you were negative to both because 10 years of frustration mounting could easily cause a person's pessimistic side to come out.
now, i'm not a complete anti-savage guy...i think he had an eye for college talent. his faults were overvaluing getting particular guys in the draft while undervaluing future draft picks.
let's take a closer look at what he got in that draft....and use your current methods of evaluating Mangini's team:
Quinn - 1st + 2nd round pick for a QB with "the upside of Joey Harrington"
Williams - "decent DE" you say here (though in other threads you said decent = league average....Corey Williams is a backup DE on our 1-9 team. He is not league average as a 3-4 DE)
Rogers - a beast and a steal of a trade. Phil's best move.
Bell - cut and out of the NFL.
Rucker - cut and on a practice squad of the Eagles. non-roster player.
Rubin›- rotational DL...good for this late by any regard.
Hubbard - cut and on a practice squad of the Raiders. non-roster player.
Hall - backup OLB who does not play. he showed flashes last year, and I would like him to get more time, but it is what it is.
heck...I didn't even include how many other picks he gave up to get those players.
you grade Mangini with hindsight....yet you give Phil the full benefit of the doubt.
all i ask for is consistency in your evaluations.
#gmstrong
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Unless he imploads (and not just on the field) he will be here next year. His contract isn't a killer by any means, and with DA gone at season's end (that's a given with his $$$) he's the only one we'll have.
The question is will he be the starter............I say that's a 50-50 bet at this point, and depends on 2 things....
1. How he develops the rest of this season
2. What direction the new FO will want to go in the draft and how much they like BQ.
Contrary to some's opinion, there are no alternitives in FA, and this isn't a draft that's got me jumping up and down ready to take a QB. There's a real shot that BQ is the starter next year by default, and he get's another year while we build the team around him.............or build it up for the next guy we get in a couple of years...lol....that'll sort of depend on his progress.
I'm not jumping on you BW so please don't take it that way, OK.
It's all the things you say BW and the thing you left out.
At some point you have to factor in the supporting cast. If the O line plays like ours has for most of the season it has a huge impact on the performance of the QB. Then there are of course the dropped passes, and finally sense they chart these sorts of things for this very reason how did he actually do in going threw his progressions? How where his reads? these are all things that the coaching staff can project to a degree sense they know what the reads are what the adjustments where suppose to be, etc. etc.
In a nut shell way more will be factored into grading out the QB then just what we see, and believe.
MHO
BTTB
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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all i ask for is consistency in your evaluations.
....and you have any right to do so. I think I sound like a pro-Savage guy just because I relentlessly bash EM 
I did say though, that I think Savage was "very" average, which basically means sligthly below avg....I wrote his "draft" was "bad" because of Quinn....I simply give him more of a pass becaue he a) had a better track record b) made moves that made sense more often (Rogers, Thomas pick, Cribbs find, DA PS pickup)....and even on his "misses" I can't really blame him all too much: Williams was a good move back then....his production NOW was the worst case scenario THEN...and I still think he's better thanb any DL still available at that spot in THAT particular draft (go through the list....horrible class, esp. for DL)
Quinn was his big miss...and I can't really blame him for that since he got him cheap (contract)....the compensation is another thing: that's where he set us back....that's one gamble he lost.....but nobody saw it coming that BQ is THIS bad....not even me, and Im the guy who has written off BQ already....I had some hope for him as a starter in this league, believe it or not
With EM on the other side...well...as I said: I just don't see ANY good moves to give the man some rope....he started to lose me in FA....then on draft day I still was ready to give him a chance: he started off good by trading down = I gave him some rope back, then he drafted Mack...and he lost all of that already there....then came the waste of 2nd round and he completely lost me there and then.....nothing made any sense: prospects, positions....I was assured right there that the man is completely clueless...Savage at least had "some" eye for talent
#gmstrong
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Quinn was his big miss..
I just came into this thread, but are we really going to declare this kid a miss already?
Only in Cleveland...
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First, I never said that WE would be evaluating anyone..lol. The new FO will evaluate BQ and they will decide what to do with him, and if they think he's a long term answer. I figured since the new FO are professionals that the stuff you mentioned would of course be included in the evaluation..............aka no need to post the obvious.
BQ has deficiencies of his own that aren't the fault of the OL, WRs, RBs or anyone else. I mean I think EM has been horrible, but EM isn't making him hit a WR in the ass on a slant route........that's his fault. The FO will take into account the fact he has ZERO talent around him, but they are also going to consider whether he's a viable option in his own right..........it's also the reason I said I bet he's the starter by default next year. There is a very good chance that the new FO will want to build the rest of the offense up so that a QB can be successful...........as I said in the last post if it's BQ that they build around or another QB we have to bring on board in a couple of years is entirely up to BQ's development.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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We agree....  BTTB
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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First, I never said that WE would be evaluating anyone..lol. The new FO will evaluate BQ and they will decide what to do with him, and if they think he's a long term answer. I figured since the new FO are professionals that the stuff you mentioned would of course be included in the evaluation..............aka no need to post the obvious.
BQ has deficiencies of his own that aren't the fault of the OL, WRs, RBs or anyone else. I mean I think EM has been horrible, but EM isn't making him hit a WR in the ass on a slant route........that's his fault. The FO will take into account the fact he has ZERO talent around him, but they are also going to consider whether he's a viable option in his own right..........it's also the reason I said I bet he's the starter by default next year. There is a very good chance that the new FO will want to build the rest of the offense up so that a QB can be successful...........as I said in the last post if it's BQ that they build around or another QB we have to bring on board in a couple of years is entirely up to BQ's development.
willie....good post.
I hope everyone reads this because it is about as honest and on the money as anything I have seen posted on this board.
Time to face reality Browns fans...read Willie's post above
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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There is a very good chance that the new FO will want to build the rest of the offense up so that a QB can be successful..........
Actually man, historically speaking, new FO's don't take questionable existing QB's and build around them. They tend to bring in their own people.
Take your pick of new regimes, but unless you have an ESTABLISHED veteran QB, most regimes bring in their own guy as opposed to sticking with a young QB with big questions.
Did the Jets stick with Clemens or draft Sanchez?
Did parcells stick with Linehan's Jon Beck or did they draft Henne and go after Pennington?
Did Rick Smith stick with Carr when he took over for Casserly or did he go after Schaub?
When the Bucs hired Dominik as the new GM did they stick with their stable of QB's or did they draft Freeman?
When the Chiefs brought in Pioli, did they stick with Croyle or did they bring in Cassell?
When Mayhew took over the Lions, did they keep Kitna and build around him or did they draft Stafford?
When McDaniels took over in Denver did he stick with Cutler or did he want Cassell?
This isn't about Quinn. This is about the tendency for new regimes to bring in their new key players, and more times than not if the QB isn't an established, successful veteran, those organizations get a new QB.
It's intuitive to think new regimes would build the team up first, but that simply isn't the case. That doesn't bode well for Anderson or Quinn. If Quinn wants the chance to survive the next regime, he needs to play lights-out the rest of the way.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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It also has several other factors you didn't consider.........
1. Do they like any of the FA QBs?? A thin class to say the least. I lthe ike none of them, and you like Cambel.......neither of us matter..lol...so what does the new regime think?? That will be a big ?? deciding Quinn's fate.
2. Do they like any of top QBs?? Again, I wouldn't spend a top 10 pick on any of them (well maybe Bradford, but the injuries scare me)..........but as I alluded to in my earlier post the new guys might. If they like someone alot then yep I agree with you.............if not then no it isn't....pretty simple..lol.
We are bringing in a "czar" who will supposedly know his football. Thus we shouldn't get panic QB picks like we saw with the Jets/Bucs last year. This will not be another OJT FO, and imo you will not see panic need picks like you will from other less experienced FOs. If they like someone then I think we'll take them, but if not I honestly don't see an established football guy like we are talking about bringing in getting a high draft pick QB for the sake of getting a QB (again Jets reference).
You mentioned Parcells, and that's an example that I think closely resembles ours. If you will remember everybody said he should take Ryan............but he went with Long. He was content to go with what he had until a veteran (Chad) became available at the end of training camp......when Favre came to the Jets.
Parcells is the type of football "czar" we are talking about getting, and he was quite content to sit with what he had until a guy he liked became available. Holmgren did the same thing in Seattle, and went with what he had (can't think of his name, but he played with the Bengals until CP took over). Then when Hasselback became available he jumped on it. Imo this is what the new "czar" will do. You will not see us waste picks/money on someone we aren't sold on (or someone who the new czar isn't familiar with as Parcells was with Pennington).
We will build up the team with the best talent available, and that may or may not be a QB.
By the way McDaniels??? Dude that was by far the weakest example you've put forth in a debate in a LONG time...lol.
Last edited by BigWillieStyle; 11/27/09 05:55 PM.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Not for nothin, but personalities play a role in a decision as well...
If Holmgren, who is considered by some as a good judge of QB's, comes here, he may see something in Quinn that others have missed... thing is, you just never know.
hell, same could be true for Anderson for that matter....
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I really think we should ignore the QB spot for like 3 years.. atleast drafting day one QB's.....
We need talent at other positions.. and then once we get steady offensive talent.. We can just insert a QB with no problems, if Quinn is not the answer.
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That's a good point.............alot of this depends on who we get to be the czar, and what type of philosophy they have. At this point it is all speculation, because we don't even know who will be making the decision (although thank god it won't be Mangini...lol).
You mentioned DA, and I am pretty sure about his fate for a couple of reasons......
1. Unlike Quinn he will be paid a chunk of change if we keep him next year.
2. Quinn has had at this point 8 career starts at this point, and will not even have a full year of game experience when the season is over. DA has been the starter for most of the past 3 years. A new FO might think Quinn can improve with a different O, approach, coaching, etc.... I doubt they feel the same about DA when we are still basically seeing the same QB we saw in college..........aka there hasn't been any improvement.
If all things are equal and I mean they don't REALLY love DA (and besides the big arm there isn't much to love) I don't see why the new guys would keep the most expensive guy, who isn't what you can consider a prospect at this point, over a cheaper guy who could still possibly improve. Quinn will be on the team next year, because his contract is very reasonable............as a starter or a backup is the question for him........and Toad is right the final 6 games will have some say as to which. As for DA.............I have a hard time envisioning any scenario where he will be a Brown next year........too much $$$ and not enough production.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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DA has been through 3 different OC's in five years, (plus an interim guy in year two).
And it hasn't just been three OC's, but it's been three different systems as well.
And it hasn't only been three OC's and three different systems, but it's been three first-time OC's on top of all that.
Quinn has been through two of these.
We've done enough to screw up the QB position that I don't know how we expect to get a reliable evaluation on any of them. I'd love to see a Browns QB get three seasons under one experienced OC. Even two years. Hell, even one year under one OC who actually has some years of experience along with some success in that role.
I would love to see us hire a Czar who could attract a GM with some successful experience in that role who could hire an experienced HC with some success along with the ability to attract an experienced OC and and experienced DC, both with some success, and with the ability to evaluate assistant coaches to work under them. That's a two-year turn around with a decent, reasonably competitive (read: not a completely-bury-your-head-embarrassing) first year.
We all tend to evaluate and make decisions on the talent of our players but coaching and continuity plays a big part in a players success. We've given no Browns player a fair shake in that regard. We could go one like this for years of futility.
Oh wait, we have.
#gmstrong
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I agree with everything you said, but it isn't about what we would do..............toad makes a very good point.................new regime means new QB alot of the times.
My hope is that we see an experienced football man named the "czar" who understands that this team needs talent everywhere, and thus goes BPA. If that player is a QB then fine, but no "statement", need or panic picks like I've seen alot of less experienced FOs due. I do agree with Toad in that some of it depends on how Quinn finishes out the year, and if the new regime likes what they see. The rest will depend on if they like anybody in the draft/FA enough to invest the resources...shrug....we shall see
DA is done bro...........too much money and not enough production. He had the same OC last year and the same offense as he did in 2007, but couldn't improve on his weaknesses. This year I agree with you wasn't a good environment to evaluate QBs. However, not being able to take a step to your left or right and throw a accurate 10 yard curl isn't the talent around you...........that's you. As I said to the Quinn folks earlier in this thread, hitting a WR in the ass on a slant isn't anyone's fault but your own.
I'm willing to give Quinn more time, because at this point we haven't seen a whole lot of him............he could still improve. DA on the other hand has been the starter for the majority of the last 2 1/2 seasons, and I honestly can't think of one thing he does better now than he did then??.......can you?? I don't mean that argumentative either, but just would like to know if you've seen anything.
When it's all said and done both of these QBs have huge ???s in their own right outside of those around them. The difference is one guy is here on the relative cheap and could still possibly develop. The other guy has shown little to no improvement since being named the starter 2 1/2 years ago, and is due to make a good bit of coin next year.
That's why DA won't be here next year..........some of it his fault, and a lot of it isn't, but it is what it is.................too much $$$ and not enough production.
As I said I really hope we get experienced people (like you said.......all through the org), and that those people draft the BPA.........regardless of what position he plays.
Last edited by BigWillieStyle; 11/27/09 11:27 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
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DA is done bro.......
I'm hip. I wasn't actually defending DA although it could have looked that way. The bad handling and inconsistant environment for any Browns QB is more like what I was aiming for. This is a bad place for a QB to grow and prosper with so many changes.
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I honestly can't think of one thing he does better now than he did then??.......can you??
No I can't. Honestly I hoped we'd trade him immediately after the '07 season because his value was so high. I felt as though I saw his problems back then and that he wouldn't improve. Plus, I must admit, we had Quinn in the wings and I thought given the chance, especially with the way our '07 OL was playing along with DE and K2 and Lewis that he'd stand more than an even chance of making good.
Even though we got a great offer for DA in that off-season we didn't take it because Savage didn't want to seem to be taken advantage of by trading him to Jones only to have Jones trade him to Miami and make Savage look a fool. Well, looking a fool took a little longer this way but I wish then and I wish now we'd have made that deal.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 496
1st String
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1st String
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 496 |
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Corpus has always had a screw loose, so take it all with a grain. I mean for God sakes, he works at a beer plant. You KNOW he's drunk all the time.
Besides, that Brees conversation isn't even remotely close to telling the entire conversation. If it were anyone but Corpus, I'd feel the need to tell the full story, but I don't. What else does that tell ya.
Toad you have a very good selective memory since I worked for Andrews Distributing (who by the way is Jerry Jones choice of beer distributor) over 3 years ago and now I work for C.C.I.S.D. which if I was a drunk and had a screw loose I would not be working with a school district.
But your memory is real selective if you can not man up and tell the truth about your feelings about the Browns obtaining Drew Brees. I'm sure I'm not the only one who recalls that you basically said I was an idiot for wanting to do what ever it took to get Brees in here. You are the main reason I don't post here as much as I used to but I'm sure you LOVE that! 
Oh yea hows the motel clerk business going? 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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