DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Is our oline that abysmal, or....

Is there something else at play here. I know we need some upgrades on the line, but they were atrocious on Monday night. Has this line given up, our do they not like Brady? The Raven's D has not looked like they have in the past, but they were monstrous Monday night. Our line was like a seive. So what does every one think? Are they just that bad? Have they given up on the coach or do they have a grudge against Brady?

I think we'll have that answer this weekend against the Lions. If they see some of the same successes the Ravens did in rushing the qb, I might tend to believe they are laying down.

We have over 100 mill invested in just three pieces of our line. I cringe everytime I think about that and see the product on the field.

I personally think St. Clair should be out of the league and that Fraley should be starting somewhere (maybe even LG)....I can't believe they would be "lying down"....for what? To get Anderson back in there?

Fraley should be in at RG. I have no doubt about that. That's about the only patch we could slap on this sinking ship for 2009. For 2010 if they don't bring in some talent for the right side I'm giving up totally. It could be that Fraley in 2010 could be part of that right side. The line is a huge part of what is wrong with the offense, not all of it, but a huge part of it. I expect Mack to look better next year.

The other problem I saw with the line against the Ravens was that they were getting overloaded with rushers. Since they knew we couldn't pass they could bring pressure. Any offensive line will crumble if you can send enough defenders at it. Since I was watching on TV I can't really say if it was the receivers not getting open or what but we just didn't have the opportunity to keep them honest with some passing.

Do they have a grudge against DA to??? They've played like crap no matter who the QB was. Thomas has been good, and the rest have been crap for the most part. ES at this point is overrated by many, and isn't a long term answer. Mack has struggled with picking up the blitz, and his line calls have been atrocious. The right side has been utter garbage. This isn't a new phenomenon just because Brady is in there, because it's been happening all year long.

Agree wholeheartedly about Mack and Thomas being worth the money. It's just unfortunate how much money we invensted in that line to no avail. However, St. Clair could probably make any o-line look bad. If I remember correctly, when the Cleveland media asked the Bears left defensive end, who went against St. Clair in practice last year, about St. Clair his quote was something along the line of "John St. Clair tries hard." lol

I have read in the posts where Fraley did a decent job at RG. I have also read where Mangini has seemingly refused to start Fraley in this position, I believe he was quoted at some point basically saying that we already have our starting RG. Does anyone think that Mangini is placing his desire to be right over what is best for the team? I am not even sure if that makes sense.

Also, what would be the major problem with moving Thomas to RT alongside Fraley at RG and allowing Steinbach and Hadnot possibly to man the left side? I know that the left side would worse but it seems to me the line might be more solid in general. But I am not an OL guru.

" Has this line given up, our do they not like Brady?"

Sure looks like One or probably both of the above. I mean I know the Right side has taken a lot of hits. But they looked a little better with Hadnot in there against the Bears...then it was like Whoa what is this garbage we are looking at. And it was mostly from the LEFT SIDE

Don't get me wrong...BQ played like Crap regardless. But the OL played WELL UNDER their capabilities even as recent as the Bear's game and they had 2 weeks to heal and get ready. For some reason I don't think they like BQ at all.

Again #1 reason why the competition was bad. You don't give the OL a chance of a preference. Either their heart is in it or its not!

JMHO

j/c
How do some posters know the line calls? I've seen it mentioned a couple times when saying Mack is not good that he is making horrible line calls.........how do you know that? You in the huddle or on the line pre-snap? Maybe the calls are right, but the execution is not. Just wondering.

I tend to agree with you except that for all the reasons the line appears to be playing bad I would have to put the "like of the QB" near the bottom of that list. I don't think the line is as bad as everyone is making it out to be. I believe the list would go in this order:

*Scheme/Playcalling
*QB
*Lack of effort due to losing, having no sense of hope, likeness of QB

...something like that. This line would look 20x better with a different OC and QB.

A couple things irk me about all of this.

One, these guys are getting paid millions. Even if you don't like the guy (which I'm fairly possitive they don't like BQ) your paid to do your job. Heck, I don't care much for some of my coworkers as well, but I still gotta show up and work.

Two, I understand its hard to put forth all your heart when your getting your skull knocked in. But my goodness, our defense is out there 2/3 of the game because of how inept our offense is and they are still playing with a lot of heart. If anything, they need to put full effort in just for those guys on the other side of the ball that are still busting theirs trying to help this team.

Those are the exact reasons why I would put the "effort" question at the bottom of the list ... I think these guys want to put in the effort but that effort starts to wane as yet another game starts to go down the toilet.

They are human, after all. Real humans. Real emotions. Real reactions to the losing ways. In a lot of ways I don't blame them. Nobody respects our QBs and these guys don't have one single easy play all game long.

I think if this line has a problem it is with scheme and adjustments.. the Ravens defense is not what it once was but they still have some creative blitz packages and I just think our line adjustments aren't what they should be. I don't think it's a coincidence that the best our OL has looked all year is when Hank was in there making the calls.

If this is on Mack, it stands to reason that would be the hardest thing for him to adjust to at this level.

I wish some reporter would grill Mangini about not playing Hank at RG, when it is painfully obvious that the line played it's best with him there. This is just one of the many head scratchers I get from Mangini. Not playing Alex Hall after his good preseason. I try to give Mangina ......whoops wrong letter, oh heck I'll leave it, it fits him better, the benefit of the doubt, but these moves seem idiotic to me. The same goes for not playing the rookie corner, crap he hasn't played in so long I forget his name.

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I have also read where Mangini has seemingly refused to start Fraley in this position, I believe he was quoted at some point basically saying that we already have our starting RG.

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And this my fellow fans, is why head coaches need people above them. Coaches are like everyone else, you fall in love with a guy, and lack seeing the big picture. It was funny because they were saying that exact thing thing on the four letter network the other day about Shannahan. And Holmgren had the same issue in Seattle. They were sputtering until Holmgren gave up the gm position and stuck to coaching, allowing someone else to review the roster. God knows Butch did the same thing many times. Keeping people that probably shouldn't have been kept, and releasing people that maybe should have been kept (Kevin Johnson anyone).

Not only does Fraley make sense, it gives him a chance to cross check the rook on his calls and cue him in he may want to check things again...

I really hope our 2nd round pick is a right side O lineman...I don't care which position though guard probably gives us a better player for the slot.

Just have to see how it plays out, taking in to account any free agents we are likely to pick up.


As to if they like BQ...I don't think many on the team like the guy....even if by a egghead, he did get punched in the mouth last year by a team mate...that says something even if some don't want to admit it.

The reality of the situation is that with hank the browns had 3 NFL players in the lineup, without him there are 2 players and a rookie.

Yes. And the backfield routes are designed for every D-lineman to get clean reads. Slow patterns or up the guts. No quick pitch, no real good stretch plays, and they are drawn up so St Clair can stand up and watch the end of most plays (he falls off, misses, falls down, defender runs by him, or he doesn't sustain, and barely engages a block. But the offensive schemes are slow and too complicated, lack much outside, and the passing game is ridiculous. A child should not design bridges; get anew OC and playbook about half this size.

Please God, not another Offensive lineman as a draft pick.

The line sucks, given. Thomas, is not the star he is reported to be on this board, but he is a keeper.

Steinbach, I don't have alot of confidence in.

Mack, well, he is a development project and hasn't done Too bad So far.

Fl, Womack, He wasn't a starter and isn't much of one now, but his low level of play is a STABLE level and that is important.

Because that is the sole reason I put John ST Claire, who our local radio show has dubbed the revolving door, in the Hands off category of players who MUST come back next year. John St Claire is a Stable level of bad and on this team that is a plus.

In short, 4 keepers Thomas, Mack, St Claire, and Fraley, maybe Hadnut ... I haven't seen enough of him.

On some recent game I saw #65 turn a blind eye to a passrusher and who knows why that happened, That is Steinbach I think.

The Line is ABYSMAL but thanks to Mangini's moves the Browns have MUCH bigger problems. Have you seen the WR's

I couldn't disagree more.

Thomas is the best LT in football. Hands down. I watch wayyyy too much football and can tell you elite teams that would GLADLY give up two first round picks for him in a heartbeat.

As to successful offense I feel your pain with the lack of talent at WR. It's awful. But if you can give your awful WRs 5 seconds to run their routes they get open. If you give a great WR no time you're going to have a problems. And you'll get your QB killed.

BPA. If that's a RT or RG instead of a WR then that's fine with me.

Maclin or Harvin sure would look better than Mack here. I could have lived with a Harvin, Maualuga, Loadholt draft. I did want the second two in fact! But oh well.

And Hank at C. That would have worked for me.

Me neither.
I'd almost rather go defense (depending on a lot of other stuff like FA and who's available early in the draft), but it's hard to quibble with the philosophy of drafting O-linemen early.

I agree that we should go defense early this year.

The top of the draft is heavy with talented defensive players (Suh, McCoy, McClain, Berry, Cody, Mays, etc.)

I do like getting top flight offensive linemen in the first round, but I don't see many available, only Maurkice Pouncey and Anthony Davis from Rutgers. And I don't think either of those guys are a good value where we will be drafting.

Wouldn't it be cool if a team got both of the Pouncey brothers?

Anthony Davis is the 2nd or 3rd tackle, and the Pouncey brothers may not declare.

Personally, I'd like to toss some of RL's cabbage around and get the right side of the line fixed via FA..

Here's the list of availables.. and there are quite a few that interest me..

http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/fa.php?option=OL&y=2010

Pos Player Name FA Status Previous Team Current Team
OG David Baas UFA San Francisco 49ers Free Agent
OT Alex Barron UFA St. Louis Rams Free Agent
OG Kevin Boothe UFA New York Giants Free Agent
OT Jermon Bushrod RFA New Orleans Saints Free Agent
OT Brad Butler UFA Buffalo Bills Free Agent
OT Chad Clifton UFA Green Bay Packers Free Agent
OG Daryn Colledge UFA Green Bay Packers Free Agent
OG Junius Coston UFA Green Bay Packers Free Agent
OT Jared Gaither RFA Baltimore Ravens Free Agent
OT Mike Gandy UFA Arizona Cardinals Free Agent
OT Cornell Green UFA Oakland Raiders Oakland Raiders
OG Ben Hamilton UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
OT Stephon Heyer UFA Washington Redskins Washington Redskins
OG Artis Hicks UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
OG Montrae Holland UFA Dallas Cowboys Free Agent
OG Richie Incognito UFA St. Louis Rams Free Agent
OG Max Jean-Giles UFA Philadelphia Eagles Free Agent
OL Charlie Johnson UFA Indianapolis Colts Free Agent
OT Winston Justice UFA Philadelphia Eagles Free Agent
OG Scott Kooistra UFA Cincinnati Bengals Free Agent
OL Chris Kuper UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
OG Taitusi Lutui UFA Arizona Cardinals Free Agent
OG Logan Mankins UFA New England Patriots Free Agent
OT Marcus McNeill UFA San Diego Chargers Free Agent
OT Pat McQuistan UFA Dallas Cowboys Free Agent
OG Carlton Medder UFA Arizona Cardinals Free Agent
OT Tony Moll UFA Baltimore Ravens Free Agent
OG Stephen Neal UFA New England Patriots Free Agent
OT Quinn Ojinnaka UFA Atlanta Falcons Free Agent
OG Benji Olson UFA Tennessee Titans Free Agent
OG Chester Pitts UFA Houston Texans Free Agent
OG Manuel Ramirez RFA Detroit Lions Free Agent
OT Willie Roaf UFA Kansas City Chiefs Free Agent
OT Michael Roos UFA Tennessee Titans Free Agent
OG Rich Seubert UFA New York Giants Free Agent
OG Rob Sims UFA Seattle Seahawks Free Agent
OG Chris Snee UFA New York Giants Free Agent
OL Darnell Stapleton RFA Pittsburgh Steelers Free Agent
OT John Tait UFA Chicago Bears Free Agent
OT Adam Terry UFA Baltimore Ravens Free Agent
OG Randy Thomas UFA Washington Redskins Free Agent
OT Jeremy Trueblood UFA Tampa Bay Buccaneers Free Agent
OT Ryan Tucker UFA Cleveland Browns Free Agent
OL Robert Turner RFA New York Jets Free Agent
OL Guy Whimper UFA New York Giants Free Agent
OG Bobbie Williams UFA Cincinnati Bengals Free Agent
OT Eric Winston UFA Houston Texans Free Agent
OL Marshal Yanda RFA Baltimore Ravens Free Agent

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I agree that we should go defense early this year.

The top of the draft is heavy with talented defensive players (Suh, McCoy, McClain, Berry, Cody, Mays, etc.)

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Yeah, that's why it wouldn't bother me to go D in the 1st, either (and maybe the 2nd as well). When you have so many holes, it'd be hard to argue with whatever we take early in the draft. Unfortunately.
We need some studs on defence, no doubt.

Can we figure the better half of that list resigning with their current team?

It seems that is the case most years.

Can someone tell me what the Heck happened to the our Top 5, and in some places 1st over all Offensive Line in the NFL at the end of 2008, to what we got now? How do you take something that is working so well, and change it to this?

Mangini -

Well we will have 3 new offensive lineman by next year... Hope they gel together fast..

Bye Bye

Steiny (Larry), Womack (Curly), St. Clair (Moe)

Regarding Steinbach, Tony Grossi answered a couple questions about him in today's "Hey Tony" column. He doesn't think Steinbach is playing that bad ...


Hey, Tony: What happened to the Browns' offensive line? They have been the strength of the team the past few years. They were always mediocre at run-blocking but very good at pass-blocking. Are Eric Steinbach and Joe Thomas still playing at a high level? -- Ben Wood, Denver

Hey, Ben: Thomas will make the Pro Bowl, I believe, for a third consecutive year. Steinbach is not a weak link. The problem with the line is on the right side. Also, everything on offense is out of whack this year due to the change in coaching staff and offensive system.


Hey, Tony: What's your opinion of Eric Steinbach, he seems to be playing at a very low level this year. What gives? -- Curtis MacDonald, San Antonio

Hey, Curtis: I don't agree he's playing at a low level. However, I would say some players -- well, a lot of players -- have not taken to the new coaching staff.

Hey, Tony: What's your opinion of Eric Steinbach, he seems to be playing at a very low level this year. What gives? -- Curtis MacDonald, San Antonio

Hey, Curtis: I don't agree he's playing at a low level. However, I would say some players -- well, a lot of players -- have not taken to the new coaching staff.


Even IF Mangini stays, will this be an ongoing issue? I know there's similar situations on every team but it just seems so widespread here in Cleveland!
You either ship away half the team or the coach...

My own opinion is that Mangini has lost the veterans, but if he stays I think he has to adjust some things regarding practice intensity and disciplinary action. Veterans do not appreciate going full tilt, in full pads, 2-3 times during the week before the game. They know that at this point in the season their bodies are beat up and need more time to recuperate between games. I'm also betting that guys like Steinbach, or Rogers, or Fraley really resent the punishment laps they are made to run for mishaps during two-a-days in August. I'm thinking the vets on the squad really dislike the whole high-school-approach of this coach. JMO.