DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Importance of free agency

I was thinking a lot to myself today on how to re-build a football team. It seems like most are in agreement here that you build through the draft, which I also agree with.

But, I think people are forgetting about the importance of free agency. If you have no talent on your team, it will take a good 3-4 years to even break 8-8 if you depend solely on the draft.

I say this for 3 reasons...

#1: It takes awhile to groom a rookie
#2: Without solid veterans, rookies learn terrible habits from terrible players.
#3: Rookies need to eased into the game.

I would come in and trade away almost an entire draft to get immediate talent on my team. After you put veterans on your team, THEN start your solid drafts and sprinkle in your rookies.

People talk about going into cap hell for free agents... Areant rookies more expensive than free agents? (Im no captologist)

How different would this team look if we would have brought in a solid Right Tackle free agent, put Mack at Guard, Fraley at Center, Marvin Harrison at wide reciever and kept Kellen Winslow at TE?

Then, on defense, I would bring in 3 big name players. 1 safety, 1 linebacker and 1 lineman.

Think of our team with solid veterans at these postions (actually good players)...

1. RT
2. RB
3. WR
4. OLB
5. Safety
6. D-End (we can argue we have this. If you feel we have this, replace it with corner)
7. Tight End


If we had this talent in place and sprinkled our rookies in, we would be in OUTSTANDING shape. (Maybe an 8-8 or 9-7 team) After putting together solid veterans, we start allowing our rookies who played UNDER them to take their spot after they retire/leave.

Just a thought. What do you think?

i agree with some of what you say.

rookies are cheaper than vets though. cause the nfl has minimum salarys for differant numbers of years in the league. so a rookie minimum is less than a vets one. however you have a better idea what a vet can do. so each play there part.

I just feel like relying soley on veterans up front is like choosing to run the ball 90% of the time. You need balance, and we brought in free agents who are terrible. I want playmakers.

i agree you need balance as well.

however if i became GM/coach of the browns once the season ended i would try to stockpile draft picks. i would keep our young guys and our real talents but anybody else i would be willing to trade.

i think if your team is on the verge of being super bowl contenders(like the vikes last year then id say hit free agency hard) but if your a normal team then a solid mix is good

Quote:

---

I would come in and trade away almost an entire draft to get immediate

---

Ya gotta kinda be careful with that.. ask New Orleans and Minnesota..

Oh I know. But you see what Im saying don't you? You almost have to bring in some free agents to take the place of your failed draft picks. If you don't, then you have failed draft picks playing with new picks, which equals 1-8.

I would never trade away draft picks, but I would br hitting free agency hard this off season to get this team back on track. We need vet. leadership and we have to many holes to fill in the draft. I also believe we have a ton of money to spend in the off season. I just hope we don't go the way of the redskins and treat it like a fantasy football team getting big names for the sake of getting big names.

You build a team with the draft ( from the inside out on both side of the ball ) .. It would only take a couple of " Good Drafts " ( Not Gini type ) to get in position to take a look at a couple of quality FA' s to put you in the playoffs ..

Oh yeah, I understand, we need solid guys.. I'd get them from FA.. I wouldn't give up picks for them..

In my opinion, building through free agency is tough. One, your usually dealing with older guys who have proved themselves and earned their big pay day. Also, the quality free agents are quite expensive. Yeah, first round picks are expensive but if you hit on them its not as big a deal. Later picks are relatively cheap and every player comes in needing to prove themselves.

Pittsburgh rarely is a big player in free agency.

A look at Pittsburgh's first round picks from 2001 and on.

C. Hampton
K. Simmons
T. Polamalu
Big Ben
H. Miller
S. Holmes
L. Timmons
R. Mendenhall
Z. Hood

A look at Baltimore's first round picks since '96

J. Ogden
R. Lewis
P. Bouleware
C. McCallister
J. Lewis
T. Heap
E. Reed
T. Suggs
H. Ngata
B. Grubbs
J. Flacco
M. Oher

I don't think any of us need to see a list of Browns first rounders since '99. Baltimore has missed on a few more than Pittsburgh as I left out Starks, Taylor, Boller, and Clayton.

The truth is you have to utilize FA when you are void of talent like we are. On most normal years you will get 7 draft picks.............let's say for the sake of argument (because it isn't happening in real life) that you strike gold on every draft pick you have..........it would still take 3 straight "gold" drafts to fill out your starters........and that doesn't touch depth.

The reality is you are doing EXTREMELY well if half your draft picks develop into starters. So your talking about 7-10 years of good drafts to fill a team this void of talent with a quality roster. The problem is by the time it happens you are to the point that the older guys aren't as productive anymore, and they need replaced.

At this point we have no choice but to supplement through FA, and fill our holes. Savage did a good job in understanding that imo. The problem with Savage was he traded away drat picks (potential replacements for big $$$ FAs) for big contracts. This is my opinion, but the Savage plan went of the tracks when he went for broke by trading up for Quinn, and trading for Williams and Rogers.............along with all the future picks for trading up in the 08 draft as well. We needed to stay the coarse with what we were doing, because a bad team can not afford to give up draft picks no more than they can afford not to acquire talented FAs (the Mangini plan ).

Savage was heading in the right direction, but he got impatient and thought we were alot farther along than we were. A team as bad as the Browns were/are couldn't afford to trade basically an entire draft for immediate help.........and that's what those trades did...........and why we are sucking hind tit right now imo. We also can't afford to go the Mangina route of inserting Boy Scout ball boys to play positions until the "picks" develop, because it just will never happen.

It takes a combination of both, and having the patience to stay the coarse (and an owner who believes in your plan and willing to give you the 3 to 5 years it's going to take).

If you draft in the top 10 of a draft rookies are just as or more expensive as free agents.

But if you hit on a player later in the draft (bottom half of the 1st round-7th round) it is the bargain of the century. Until that player's agent gets wise to how good he is and how little money he is making and demands a renegotiation of the player's contract.

I think free agency is an excellent place to find role players, but for the most part star players never reach free agency because teams offer them lucrative long term contracts (Peyton Manning, Larry Fitzgerald, DeMarcus Ware, Nnamdi Asomugha etc.) or franchise them (Julius Peppers, Brandon Jacobs, Dallas Clark, Jordan Gross, etc.) or trade them so that they can get something in return (Randy Moss, Jay Cutler, Braylon Edwards, Shaun Rogers, etc.)

There are a few exceptions. Drew Brees became a free agent because the Chargers spent big money on Phillip Rivers and had to play him. Albert Haynesworth was a free agent because he had it written into his contract that the Titans couldn't franchise him again (then he got over-payed as a free agent.)

Usually free agents are aging veterans that were cut because they couldn't perform up to there current contracts and wouldn't renegotiate, players that were backups on other teams and could be let go because they wanted to get paid/be a starter, or undrafted rookies.

With that said, this upcoming should be pretty interesting. If no CBA is agreed upon there will be no cap penalties. So you might see guys with high salaries that don't perform get cut (JaMarcus Russell, Reggie Bush, Vernon Gholston, etc.) Also, players coming out of there fifth year of their contract that normally would be free agents, will be restricted free agents (Braylon Edwards, D'Qwell Jackson, Lofa Tatupu, etc.)

I think that free agency is way to plug holes. But if you are looking to greatly improve your team through free agency it won't work. There are 32 teams in the NFL and usually only five or six free agents that can truly impact a team.

In theory, bringing in big name players through free agency sounds like a good plan. But there really aren't enough big name players available through free agency to change multiple teams.

(Also, if Marvin Harrison wasn't done as a wide receiver the Colts would have brought him back this year with all there injuries at that position.)

Oz, I understand your logic, but I think Pittsburgh is a bad example. It's easy to build through the draft when you have talent on your team. But to establish some talent on your team in order to build through the draft, you have to do one of two things...

#1: Bring in soild free agents

#2: Suck for 3-4 years and take the gamble that your draftee's will produce after playing alongside bad players. If they do produce, you are good after 3 or 4 years.

I'm tired of the 4 yr suck plan. I would give a testicle for an 8-8 season.

Quote:

---

In my opinion, building through free agency is tough.

---

I don't think you are alone in that opinion.. Building through the draft takes a number of years.. But I understood the premise of this thread to be how can we build quicker than just the draft..

FA's are one way.... UDFA's are another.. Better coaching to develop some guys we currently have..

We have a base of players we can build around now.

Start out with 3 or 4 new FA's,

our two second round receivers from last season getting better,

Miava continuing to improve, with any luck Veikune coming along...

maybe Davis getting a chance to contribute in a meanigfull way

Coye Francises coming on as well....

then sprinkle in a successful draft next april where 2 or 3 guys end up starting or at least contributing in a meaningful way and all of a sudden, we may have something to look forward too..

Topping on the cake would be if we get lucky and find another good UDFA as well.. one of those diamond in the rough types...

Each year, your needs/must haves should decrease and you can then peel away from the FA's and concentrate on retaining your good guys and building from the draft...

You need to do both.

Any team that relies exclusively on one or the other is missing the boat.

Vet FA players help the immediate....say 2 years....rooks are the future. You have to be proficient at both and know when to rely on one more than the other..

In our current state, we need to maintain a balance.

Last year we said the same about Bell, Rucker Hubbard, the Browns even traded up to get them. Look where they are today.

Big Shot..I agree wholeheartedly. As with any phase of football, you cannot be one dimensional. There needs to be some sort of balance. Free agency can be extremely beneficial in the short term not only in your product on the field but as well to mentor those draft picks. This is why I liked the signing of Eric Barton. A servicable player and a true vet to help our younger linebackers and even DQ. The only problem I have with free agency is usually you have to severly overpay to get the top tier guys, especially here in Cleveland. I think about Nate Clements and Albert Haynesworth. Great players no doubt, but the contracts they got are way, way too much.

I think another issue we have here is our lack of being able to develop players. I hate to bring up Pittsburgh again, because I understand your point about the surrounding players they have, but I believe they cut Harrison 2-3 times. They develop their players.

But all in all, I think we pretty much agree you have to have a balance to be successful. I would like us to obtain our role players through free agency i.e. not having to drastically overpay and get our playmakers through the draft.

Now if you can't draft worth a damn, that's a whole 'nother story. I'd call it the Cleveland Browns story.

I'm glad you registered. You are very insightful and have made several good posts in your short time here.

The problem has been, the Browns are not willing to stick to any plan whatsoever.

The 99 draft was a lottery for other teams willing to dump marginal players.

Butch was a disaster, He drafted only Big East players that he was familiar with.

Savage got trigger happy with trades. Not just the Quinn move, but the Faine move, Rucker, Hubbard and others.

I doubt that if the Browns had McNabb or Big Ben and LT they would have been in the same position today. That is an "I told you so" from a novice.

I actually liked what Savage did while he was here.. some of his day 2 picks were questionable.. but i think everyone's day 2 picks are questionable.. You wont hit on everybody.

Quote:

---

Last year we said the same about Bell, Rucker Hubbard, the Browns even traded up to get them. Look where they are today.

---

Hey Hey Hey hey... I can hope can't I If I keep thinking like that, odds are I'll be right someday.... LOL

If we hadn't traded for Quinn then we have a 1st to draft a DL. Also, I don't mind the Rogers trade one bit, because we screwed the Lions out of a PB NT for a 3rd round pick........should have clarified that. As for CW.........really?? You think he was worth a 2nd round pick??? I don't at all, and would gladly take the production of that pick 2 years later than to have CW being very mediocre and getting paid big $$$$ on the contract we had to give him to be mediocre.

I'll give you the Rogers deal, but every other trade that Savage made for picks has come back to bite us in the ass........every one of them. If he hadn't of done that then we probably would be farther ahead of were we are today.

Quote:

---

We had 3 2nd round picks last year how's that working out for us? GB put the franchise tag on him so PS wasn't the only one who expected more than what we've got.

---

Am I the only one that keeps noticing this? I think the whole draft last year was with the intent of future earnings. I think the Gini plan was tear-down this yr. & start drafting your core. We needed WR's & LB's. We also needed to get stronger up the middle. I don't think he drafted anybody with the plan of getting results THIS YEAR. You could argue "why not", but I think the plan was to get up the depth with good compentent players and then next year start drafting the true studs. One could argue that you need studs whenever you can get them, but for whatever reason I think Gini had a plan to start tearing down & build it up slow. JMHO.

Maybe...but I go with the "hasn't got a clue" or "in over his head" theories.

As much as I would like to agree with you, I don't think a man like Gini could be around as long as he has and not have a clue. I think he wrote off this year before we even started. I don't think he believed that the back-lash would be this bad. It was like he wanted to tear everything down and knew we would be bad, but was not expecting people to get upset, at least not as much as has happened, I think since we all seemed to know we were bad, Gini just assumed that it wouldn't matter if we got worse before we could get better. But he found out about the fans passion the hard way, not to mention you don't screw with our team.

I'm having doubts myself. I think his biggest down fall, besides ego, has been his OC, or lack of one. Yeah were lacking on talent on that side of the ball, but gee whiz man, there's no plan that I can see, other then drop back & find somebody. Even the running game is just like take the ball and find a hole. Nobody is playing together, there's just no plan.

I agree with those who say you need a blend of good drafting and judicious FA signings. The draft is for long term development, and then fill more immediate needs through FA. This approach also argues in favor of drafting best available player over need, because it will suit you better in the long run.

The Browns have the particular problem, with all the bad player publicity of the last 6 months, of being every agent's Plan C. With Mangini as coach, I believe most FA's will avoid Cleveland like the Plague, and I can't say I'd blame them.

I agree with all that, except I don't consider Savage to have been average. He wasn't that much better than anyone else.

Quote:

---

Savage was average...very average overall....still the best talent evaluator we had since rebirth...not even close

---

I can't argue with that, but that says alot more about the other dolts we've had here than it does Savage. Also your concentrating on getting DL only in that draft........what if we never traded the pick for BQ and went BPA at that spot (Mendenhall)??? You still want to say we couldn't have gotten anything out of that draft??

We will have to agree to disagree, because imo when you trade first day picks for big contracts, and your a mediocre/bad team you gonna get bit........we did big time. For every Rogers/Wright (forgot about that one good call) type of deal that worked out there are 2 trades of the same kind that didn't.

Those trades are the biggest indictments of the Savage regime.......well along with the crap we found out about after he got canned. He certainly wasn't Mangina bad imo, but he was a flawed GM, and his impatience to stick with the plan cost us.........and him his job ultimately.

I liked some of what Savage did....

but as you mentioned the trades were a pock-mark.....and the guaranteed roster bonus' in FA contracts were another.

Trying to fix things by acquiring new players is the problem.


yeah it is new thinking but I'm pretty sure I'm right about this one. It seems this concept is in the posts on here all too often, but Trying to fix things by acquiring new players is the problem. The roster problem anyway.

I'm going to stick with a CONCEPT that might work in the long run.

One on here has already said that Beau Bell and Martin Rucker are gone because they were bad. That is not true, they are gone because the regime of management changed, and it is a question if they would have been bad.

The Roster recipe!

Pick a group of players that you are going to count on next year and you cannot part ways with no matter what. Candidates would be originally Browns since they came in the league, or free agents with a long history with the Browns, or players who have achieved alot in the Browns uniform, and also ... players who make key plays throughout the course of a game , like 3rd down stops or 3rd down conversions, or plays when the game's outcome still hangs in the ballance.
The Hands OFF players, these we must lobby the GM, the NEW GM to hang onto.

Roster recipe #2 orginial Browns draft picks by year. ... This rule states that the NFL Draft must yeild 2 stars and 3 prospects even if they appear to not yet be playing well. This rule would demand by recipe that EVERY chance be given to the LAST, the Second to LAST , and sequentually third from last player about to be cut, or traded away that remains from a Browns draft year.

... this was broken, because Bell, and Rucker, were the only pics from that season and both are now gone, ... no time was given for development.


Recipe, # 3 the Draft, This rule recognizes that only a percentage of picks will be stellar, and it is on average HALF of 1st and 2nd rounders, a THIRD of 3rd and 4th rounders, and 10% of 5th rounders and later.

Recipe #4 THIS MAY BE THE MOST IMPORTANT! The Browns, need to recognize that free agency works best used in moderation and the rule should be NO MORE than 4 players a year, and Every Effort should be made to RE-THINK bringing in any player that exceeds this number because it will only begin the downward spiral to where they are today.

Too many free agents, the Browns have done it year after year are causing many positions to be without players who have experience on the Browns and more importantly experience working together.

later I will make suggestions of the current Hands off players that the New GM must make every effort to keep.