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Seriously. Which would you rather have right now?  I'm sorry but we just saw a team this week that had few sacks than us last year beat the Steelers. We went with the wrong New England underling.
Last edited by josh07dawson; 11/23/09 06:52 PM.
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GM vs Coach/GM
Not even the same, once again, another bash attempt at Mangini.
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Hey, it's not like Pioli is setting the world on fire either ya know. besides as has alredy been said, you are comparing apples and oranges...
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Oh come on this is about a choice Randy Lerner could have made instead of falling in love with Eric Mangini and you KNOW the team would be better than this under him rather than the garbage we just saw lose to a Detroit Lions team. Put it into perspective. Mangini was hired before the GM and got to pick it and ran the show because he was butch in the relationship. If Pioli were the initial hire he would have brought a bit more structure and stability to this train wreck and hired his HC and guarantee that grouping would have not drafted worse than Mangini did this year. I know it's early and all that garbage but I have to call it like I see it. This is bad. Apples to Oranges my arse. Asside from that, a guy like Mangini deserves to get bashed as much as he does. That wasn't the intention of this thread, though. The team would be better under his direction and we at least wouldn't be a laughing stock in the many facets we are, people. 
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matt cassell is locked in longterm to a high salary. no thanks.
we may not have solved our QB situation, but at least we have flexibility in fixing it in the future. they are sort of locked in for the next couple years at least and I am not sold on Cassel at all.
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Are they even in the same weight class? I think Mangini would take him! 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Hey, it's not like Pioli is setting the world on fire either ya know. besides as has alredy been said, you are comparing apples and oranges...
You mean the HC job and the GM job aren't the same thing????
Say it ain't so!!!!!
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Oh come on this is about a choice Randy Lerner could have made instead of falling in love with Eric Mangini and you KNOW the team would be better than this under him rather than the garbage we just saw lose to a Detroit Lions team.
Apples to Oranges my arse.
Sure sounds like a Bash Attempt.
How can you compare a GM (One that's never Coached) to a Coach (1st Time Unoffical GM)? This just discredits your entire argument, and the fact you fail to see it as apples to oranges just proves that point.
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Oh come on this is about a choice Randy Lerner could have made instead of falling in love with Eric Mangini and you KNOW the team would be better than this under him rather than the garbage we just saw lose to a Detroit Lions team.
Two different jobs.. but based on the performance of both, I don't want either..
And neither one of knows if the team would have been better off with Pioli..
it always appeared to me that Pioli was Belichicks boy,, Scott did whatever Bill wanted. At least that's what it felt like.
I don't ever remember wanting Pioli,, and I still don't..
And I don't want mangini either.
As for this being apples and oranges your arse,, yeah,, it is different.. Period
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It's not apples to oranges. We could have Mangini, or we could have Pioli. We had the choice between them.
Personally, I don't think either is doing that great. I'm glad we don't have Cassell.
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I don't think Pioli would be a better HC than Mangini
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Not the point. The point is who would we rather have right now to run our team. That's what we chose Mangini for, and what we would have chose Pioli for.
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If Pioli were the initial hire he would have brought a bit more structure and stability to this train wreck and hired his HC and guarantee that grouping would have not drafted worse than Mangini did this year. I know it's early and all that garbage but I have to call it like I see it. This is bad.
How is Tyson Jackson doing wtih that huge 3rd pick of the draft contract?
Year Team G Solo Ast Total Sack YdsL Int Yds IntTD DefTD FFum PD Sfty
2009 Kansas City 10 10 3 13 0.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0
How is that 2nd round pick...oh wait, he gave that and a $60mil+ contract for Cassel (no thanks)
How is Alex MaGee, DT, A&M doing (3rd round pick)?
Year Team G Solo Ast Total Sack YdsL Int Yds IntTD DefTD FFum PD Sfty
2009 Kansas City 10 5 1 6 2.0 10 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
(note: the 2 sacks have come in the last 2 games, but only 3 tackles before that....many on this board would have already written him off as a complete bust)
How about their 4th rounder...Donald Washington, CB The Ohio State?
3 tackles and no other stats on the year. their backup nickelback
5th round on....
Colin Brown, OL Mizzou (not starting...at least not at top of their depth chart online)
Quinten Lawrence, WR McNeese State (16 yds receiving and inactive for most games)
Javarris Williams, RB, Tenn State (i think he was cut or injured...can't find info on him other than not on their current roster)
jake o'connel, WR Miami (OH) (listed as TE...inactive most weeks....0 catches)
then....their best selection....
Ryan Succop, K, South Carolina - he's been pretty good.
And you are saying you 'know' he would have drafted better? Early results favor Mangini (and yes, you have to include Elam and Coleman....even if you don't, they still favor Mangini)
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Jackson has actually been really good. Can't judge a 3-4 end on stats.
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Jackson has actually been really good. Can't judge a 3-4 end on stats.
i was mostly showing that Pioli wouldn't have been a cureall for our team and that his drafting methods wouldn't have magically fixed anything.
but, do you really want the 3rd overall draft pick and contract to be a OL occupying DL?
I have seen them play twice and he wasn't getting to the QB in either game....does he have other QB hurries in other games because that didn't seem to be in his skillset from what I saw
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Not the point. The point is who would we rather have right now to run our team. That's what we chose Mangini for, and what we would have chose Pioli for.
I don't really see how you can say that? We've all heard differing stories. Some stories portray Coke as a figure head while others say he was truely our GM but was someone who could work hand in hand with Mangini. And as best I can tell, Coke had the credentials to be given a shot as an NFL GM. I haven't seen any evidence to prove which one of the scenarios is truely the case. I doubt you have either but I could be wrong.
So if you want to compare our hire of Coke vs Pioli I'd say you may very well have a valid point. However, "guessing" as to who Pioli would have brought "here" and speculating how "it might be now" I find has no grounds for merrit. JMO
It would appear, at least on the surface that the guy signing the paychecks thought it was Coke and that Coke wasn't doing a very good job of it. So I will have to take that as the most credible source to date. Now that doesn't "prove" that Coke was "actually" the man in charge but it sure seems to indicate it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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hind site is 20/20, and this comparison doesn't even beat a blind mans vision.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I think i have calmed down just a little..
Keep Gini and just bring in Holmgreen to help with the roster moves..
We need stability..
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Mangini was hired first.
So if I hire carpenters then a foreman, the foreman isn't really the foreman? Or after you hire the foreman you hire a job superintendant and somehow that now means that the foreman is really the job super?
A HC runs the playcalling, training camp, game days. The GM looks at the scouting and makes the calls. Now why does "who's hired first" change that?
If you hire a GM first, does that mean he coaches the team too? Like I indicated, you really have no evidence as to who "ran/runs" the team. Each title has a seperate job description and the order in which they are hired hasn't really changed what the job of each position is as far as I know.
Let's pose it this way. If you hire a GM first, doesn't he hire a HC he feels he can work with and get along with?
So you are suggesting if you find someone you feel has a great HC potential, you should somehow hire someone that HC doesn't like and get along with?
Or that somehow the order in which they are hired automaticly designates who is "da man"? I feel that is some rather flawed logic but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.................
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I think i have calmed down just a little..
Keep Gini and just bring in Holmgreen to help with the roster moves..
We need stability..
Problem being I'd say if you bring in Holmgren it would be under the condition he decides who the HC will be.
However, I'd say if the role was opposite a HC would give a list of people he would like to work with as a GM. However you slice it, if the two guys at the top don't work well together you end up with nothing.
Each has their own job to do but they have to be on the same page in regards to what direction they're heading and the system they're running because this will dictate which players you sign and draft to execute your plan.
Now if Holmgren likes Mangini, feels he is workable and on the same page, then I think that would be a plus. I'd say Mangini is frustrated as much and probably moreso than the rest of us at this point.
jmho
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Gimme Pioli, no question. Granted he hasn't proven anything, but Mangini has turned out to be the absolute worst coaching selection in the history of football.
Mangini inherited a team with 7 SEVEN! Pro Bowlers and has won one game - by 3 points. - Joe Thomas, DA, Eric Steinbach, Josh Cribbs, Ryan Pontbriand, Braylon Edwards, Kellen Winslow
Okay, so two pro-bowlers are gone - THAT LEAVES 5 PRO-Bowlers!
Yet, we are on pace to accrue less points and yards than the '99 expansion team.
Yet, we have given up more points and yards than the '99 expansion team.
We won 1 game because a guy fumbled a punt which led to a fg.
This is the absolute most incompetent coaching staff in the history of football.
- Worse than the '76 Buccaneers, worse than the '99 Browns, worse than the '08 Lions Why? None of those staffs inherited 7 pro-bowlers.
Unreal.
The worst ever - EVER!
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So if I hire carpenters then a foreman, the foreman isn't really the foreman? Or after you hire the foreman you hire a job superintendant and somehow that now means that the foreman is really the job super?
Well how many carpenters upstage the forman??
I don't know the exact details of what happened but what is known is that shortly after Kokopuffs was hired , things went haywire..and we can all see who was making deals and whatnot..that wasn't Kokpuffs..and then the dude was asked to go take counseling?
So he could be more assertive??
Dude never had that problem in Bmore..why here?
Anyway...I got why RL hired Manpolen first (mistake) and then allowed him to bring in someone most thought he could work with...however something soured after that.
What should have happened was that Kokopuffs be allowed to do what he was hired to do..bring in FA's and mann the draft..not Manpolen controlling it..errrr taking it over.
And all those EX-Jets was a stamp who was making the deals..and if the GM didn't know that Edwards was being traded..well I'd like to see anyone countering that situation..I know I would have been livid if that was me in there..I'd have blown up Berea..and Manpolen with it.
Power play..
So..back to the topic..at least Pioli (even if he was not tactful) was straight with RL..he said he would tear it down and rebuild it..someone else  wasn't so straight forward..so the key is what the Chiefs do next offseason vs the Browns..
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Quote:
Problem being I'd say if you bring in Holmgren it would be under the condition he decides who the HC will be.
I can't imagine any top Czar type guy coming in here if he's told he HAS to keep Mangini..
I CAN see the Owner saying,, hey, it's your team,, you pick who you want to run it,,, but please talk to Mangini in a fair manner.. Give him an honest chance to impress you.. if he can..
I believe that's possible,, but an out and out order to keep mangini... Naw.. Nobody would accept the job with that....
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Cheap knock IMO. Has the infallible luxury of hindsight as well. Apples & oranges. Mangini has problems and issues with coaching style, but let's play tag with reality por favor. 
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He wasn't allowed to do it or couldn't do it? He had never been a GM before. So what makes you so sure he simply was unable to handle the duties?
I'm not saying I'm right here. What I am saying is that many seem to think they know the details of what did or didn't go down behind the scenes when in reality have no idea. everything is pure conjecture and speculation. Nothing more.... jmho
Why are they checking Cokes phone records? Could it be he wasn't using work time to do business?
How can you say that Pioli didn't tell Lerner he wanted to scrap Quinn for Castle and Lerner didn't want to do that?
None of us know........
That's the point.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I just said I don't know the whole story..but there are things that are being leaked out..however in this thread(maybe?) all the stuff you are suggesting has been commented on and I thought perhaps Koko was leaking stuff or perhaps telling others not to come here(the story about the FA being given the shaft is interesting)..doing something to breach his contract..make a date..choose some stock..call Pizza hut...whatever..but perhaps it was retaliation..anger...don't know.
How can you say that Pioli didn't tell Lerner he wanted to scrap Quinn for Castle and Lerner didn't want to do that?
When i said Pioli told RL there were few players that could actually play for his team or any other SB contender and he was going to tear it down and rebuild it , ya think he said "Hey Randy I'll leave yer prize from Opie's draft out of the equation?
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Quote:
Cheap knock IMO. Has the infallible luxury of hindsight as well. Apples & oranges. Mangini has problems and issues with coaching style, but let's play tag with reality por favor.
This isn't a cheap knock on Mangini. This is about a decision that Lerner could have made about an overall regime coming in and being the initial hire. I'm just saying who would you rather have making the personnel decisions (which is what Geezy has been de facto doing the second he got here), Pioli or Mangini?
Hiring Pioli first would have brought us much more stability in the front office. At least we wouldn't end up sending a GM to get counseling to grow a pair (that is a cheap knock but a deserved one I have no problem with). Me, being caught up in the moment of hope and change (Oh dear, the 2008 Presidential Election  ) was happy when we hired Mangini, but really first-hand wanted Pioli to come in and run the show first. I would also guarentee you the head coach he brought in would have been better than Mangini.
Yes I have the luxury of hindsight, but at least I didn't bring up a name that doesn't make this completely 20/20 as there is still much work to do in KC. I just thought in light of what was a team that had even less talent than us last year beating the Pittsburgh Steelers that this could be an area for simple discussion. Now I'm getting a bunch of close-minded pesky posts about how this is "apples to oranges" because they have two different positions. Those same people aren't saying it is apples to oranges when they're talking about a choice that could have been made to draft Maualuga in round two instead of Robiskie because they play different positions, are they?
No. It is about a choice RL could have made. He could have made Pioli his initial hire who then (and the way things are supposed to go, following a chain of command) would have hired a HC (a better one at that, objectively speaking) and probably put us in better shape going forward than Mangini's "process". I would gladly trade rosters with KC at this point to be honest. At least that team is competitive with the big boys right now.
Next person to say that this is completely apples to oranges, I swear... 
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Quote:
This is about a decision that Lerner could have made about an overall regime coming in and being the initial hire. I'm just saying who would you rather have making the personnel decisions (which is what Geezy has been de facto doing the second he got here), Pioli or Mangini?
Since you seem so fond of Hindsight,, let's just say, I don't want either one..
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Hey, hindsight is fun. Aren't we on a football message board to talk Cleveland Browns football? Well looking back on decisions, at ANY point in time, is a part of that. It makes for fun football talk!  Sure it's a touch unrealistic sometimes and people are annoyed right now because of the losing and hate to be reminded of how bad our situation is, but it's all a part of why we come here. We discuss football. Personally, with hindsight I would prefer mostly Accorsi's recommendation from NYG as GM and then lure away Steve Spagnuolo last year as our Head Coach. Call me biased towards the 4-3 but I think that would have been an area of improvement as the Lions just showed you how "close" our defense is. He learned under Jim Johnson (may he RIP) and knows defense. As far as offense is concerned, it would not mean having Daboll here. I know he's the FAVORITE of most on this board, but I'm just not a fan. 
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I don't get it. I ask what you think a Pioli/Ferentz regime would have looked like at this time and it gets yanked. Then, this stays alive?
Once again,
What do you think a Pioli/Ferentz regime would have looked like? At this time?
Would Ferentz had been a big bust? Would they have rebuilt? Brought Cassel in? Woulld we have been on our way? Would Pioli have screwed up the top end of the draft like EM did?
Speak, oh wise one.
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The only thing I have in regards to comments about your response is pretty simple really.
We hear "leaks" as you call them, which are basicly no more than unsubstantiated rumors no matter how you phrase it. And from my experience more often times than not such things turn out to be false, one sided, opinionated and often times just flat out wrong.
So I simply put little to no stock in what you term "leaks". Let's face it, when you ask two people in the middle of a divorce who's fault it is that their mairrage is ending, the answer is almost always their partner. And so it is with what you term as "leaks" imo
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And I always say where's there's smoke there's fire..so leaks on both sides mean something is going on whether U want to believe it or not..
It should be obvious Manpolen is in control..it is to me..the FA's brought in how many freaking Jets does this need???..the fact that Koko didn't know about the Edwards deal..c'on use some logic..how does a GM not know about a trade deal????
Kept in the dark? 
Anyway for me..it's here nor there..I want to see Lerner do what he needs to ..get the right people in here and get this mess of a franchise to respectablity.
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Well as to part of your post, how silly would it be to keep marginal players on your roster who don't fit or know your system verses ones who do? That explains the Jets players. And I think you know as well as I do that's fairly typical. It's really pretty common and a non issue. And at what point did things go awrye to the point Coke was no longer really involved or doing his duties? So I don't know how much validity in Coke knowing or not and I don't know at what point Coke really was no longer doing his duties. Smoke? Well I guess if following rumors suits some then so be it. But I've been around long enough to know more often times than not it ends up being a smoke bomb instead of a fire.
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