DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mangini and Next Year

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How many Jets fans do you know? If you know a couple thousand,, then you got something there,, but if you know only one... who cares

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Not only the vary many I know ( I live in NYC ) also anyone who I dont know and have talked to about the Jets. The only good thing I have heard about Mangini is "He will probably go to Cleveland and become the next Bilichick thats just our luck"

Oh I did hear other good things about him, like thanks for giving us a QB and a #1 receiver. ok we know they got ripped off on the receiver

I would give Mangini another year if he made major changes to the O staff. First to go is Daboll but he wouldnt be the last Daboll may have been saved for sacrafice. Fire him to early and no one left to take the blame lol.

Mangini has done a lot that I agree with but the handling of this offense is disgraceful. He screwed up the right side of the line worse than what it was. I cant blame him for dumping BE and K2 but you need some vets to throw to.

I wont diss the new VP for either choice he makes. I can understand him giving Mangini a chance (if he is willing to make considerable staff changes). I can understand if the new VP just blows it up. Honestly, I would say most fans will see it that same way.

The only reason this is even debateable is that the browns beat the steelers. If we're sitting 1-12 with our only "win" being 6-3 over the bills there isn't 10% the population on this board that wants to keep him.

Yes, it was awesome beating the steelers. Yes, I had a smile on my face all of Friday. But let's keep in mind that this was a team which had just lost to the mighty chiefs and BRUCE FREAKIN GRADKOWSKI with the Raiders. This is not the same steelers team that beat us 12x in a row.

The saddest thing is, we can still be bad and end the season on a 4-game winning streak. Then, there's no way we fire mangini. The chiefs and raiders aren't good and JAX will more than likely be eliminated from the playoffs by week 17.

I don't know that there's enough season left for me to change my mind on mangini.

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He will probably go to Cleveland and become the next Bilichick thats just our luck"

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that actually doesn't sound to bad to me....LOL I'll take 4 superbowl appearances and 3 wins... wouldn't you?

The article states one of the reasons to keep him is beating the Steelers. That was big, very big. But the Steelers were a .500 team on a four game skid at the time. Within that skid they'd lost to a few of the worst teams in the NFL. It's not like we beat the world beaters they've been for the past several years. They were a .500 team no matter what their name is or the history between us and them. I feel the win vs. the undefeated Giants last season was a much bigger win. That game didn't have the frigid weather to equalize the playing field. Big win beating Pittsburgh but shouldn't weigh much in the consideration to keep him or not.

I won't believe that any coach in the NFL would have handled the QB situation in training camp as irresponsibly as Mangini did. All common sense was thrown out the window on that one. I realize that if you have two guys who you consider pretty much equal that the decision is hard. But at some point, and that point is where you give the guy you pick the best chance to succeed, the decision has to be made and move forward from there. Being afraid to make that decision until a last minute surprise took valuable reps from the starter and denied him any time to prepare his mindset.

I'm convinced now that the draft should have been BPA all the way. We had so many holes to fill that ignoring that while taking the chance of trying to upgrade specific positions meant he HAD to hit on those picks. It would have made much more sense to take the BPA at our draft spot. Whatever holes didn't get fixed would have to wait. As it went down, getting need specific, we still have holes and some of the need specific picks are iffy at best. Should have gone BPA every pick.

I'm not sure that he plays favorites but he sure does seem to have an open door policy to the dog house. Maybe it's been blown out of proportion but it seems he's held some good players off the field for trite reasons only he knows about. Robiskie, for one, could not had done any worst than any of the other WR's he's trotted out there who couldn't seem to get on the same page as the QB. Plus the kid has some pretty sure hands and the experience would have likely had him playing well by now.

There are others who've been mentioned all through the season. My only point is that it seems easy to land in Mangini's doghouse and hard to get out of it. The stories about he, Dabol and Quinn have to have some valididty as well. Hank Frailey anyone?

If I consider that this year may have been a "throw away" season of evaluation as Savage did in '05 then a lot of his odd personnel moves are understandable. But "you play to win the game" and when you've got better players on the bench it better be for a damn good reason, not some nit-picky, pet peeve form of discipline.

He does get outcoached in the locker room at half-time. I understand that the best adjustments still won't work if you don't have the talent to execute them. But part of that is Mangini's own fault as he has his guys playing.

He ruined the right side of the OL. I'm not sure Schaffer ever sucked as bad as StClair. Sure he saved some money but it was at the expense of down-grading the talent over there. There might be one or two more wins if we could have run to the right side perhaps giving us the opportunity for play action passes. As it has been no one is going to bite on play action if you haven't shown you can actually run with some success. Hank at RG and Schaffer at RT may have given us that.

He seems like a weasel in his pressers. Like he doesn't really want to tell the truth, admit to bad decisions or basically be honest as to why he makes some decisions. I understand that he gets that from his hero Bill Belichick but at some point, when things are going so bad, you have to satisfy questions with an honest answer. I do however like some of the detail he will go into when the question is purely football related and not questioning one of his decisions.

His hiring of a totally inexperienced OC going into a rebuilding situation is as foolish as his handling of the QB's. This team needed to get on track offensively and to have to wait while the OC learns the job and gets himself on track first is inexcusable. I don't feel the offense and their coordinator is put in the best position to succeed if they have to learn together. To promote a new guy after the offense is clicking and they lose their OC to a HC job is one thing. The foundation, offensive philosophy and playbook is already set. But a new guy on a team full of new guys just begs for what we have seen here all season.

Those were the negatives. For the positives he does have the team playing with more disipline, a lack of non-aggressive mental penalties and he made a good choice in coaches with Ryan and Seeley and maybe even some of the assistant coaches.

I think Mangini is an intelligent football mind and could be a very good HC in this league. His trouble is he wants more power than simply being the HC and when you couple that with his inability to properly relate to his players, his perchant to have a doghouse with many rooms and his totally one-sided "It's my way or the highway" view of his authority it makes him a tough choice.

Had the Browns already had an established Czar and GM before he come on board I think he may have fared pretty well. But to go from the Czar to being only the HC is a demotion, (yes a demotion), that, regardless of what he says about welcoming anyone who can help, will be a difficult adjustment for him.

Dang, when I tried to list the positives I ended up right back into negatives.

In summary, this roster is already so screwed up that I don't think it hurts us a bit to start over when faced with that or keeping Mangini as HC. I would be ok with keeping him with an experienced OC brought in while keeping Ryan here as well. But Mangini would have to have very little input into the draft and he'd have to get a good talking to regarding his doghouse philosophy.

Here's the biggest problem I have with your argument.

What good players has Mangini had slip through his fingers? Certainly not the pathetic *look at his stats, at his in game performance, at his body of work as a whole.* combine that with his cancerous attitude, his contract coming up, and his not wanting to be in Cleveland, we got more than enough for Edwards.

Did he botch the 2nd round? It's looking likely, but judging draft picks when it hasn't even been a full year after is pretty foolish.

Brady Quinn, it is debatable that he doesn't have much talent at all. Certainly hasn't shown much outside of shredding two bad pass defenses.

Oh and Kellen Winslow is a cancer that has one knee and is about 3 years from retirement.

So there is very little talent on this team to begin with and he decided to blow it up rather than try to get 8 wins with mediocre talents. Either way, you have not shown me one bit of evidence that Mangini "hates" talent, just that he hasn't acquired any yet. Certainly you wouldn't argue that Shaun Rogers isn't talented. Nor would you argue Jericho Crotchery or Leon Washington or Thomas Jones or Nick Mangold or D'Brickshaw Ferguson or...

I think you see my point...

i say give him next year too. if we have another season like this, that decision is pretty obvious. but i think the guy deserves more time.

i don't care that the players hate the coach. it means they don't want to work hard enough.

as far as personnel decisions, someone else should be making the final say, mangini definitely deserves to have his 2 cents put in, but we need someone who can bring in impact players.

i guess the problem is, if we bring in a guy like holmgreen, parcells, etc... no way do they want mangini coaching. so i guess that point would be moot. i would give up eric mangini in a heartbeat if it meant getting a legitimate guy to run the team

Dawg,

First of all, there is a difference between "internet rumor" and internet, print media, radio talk, clayton/mortensen/glazer, TV network, on and on reporting.

Before the draft, he held out for a 1st and 3rd. Now, "rumor" said he could have gotten a 1st and 5th. In addition to the Giants, the Eagles, Jets, Jaguars, and others were actively shopping. If your description of Braylon is accurate, and he wanted Mack, why not take just the 1st for Edwards and use it to get Mack? All of those guys drafted before the steelers (who were the main ones we were worried about taking him). Are you guys saying we could not have gotten just the 1st for Braylon at that time? If so, I disagree. I think its clear we could have. The Giants have paid dearly for not making the deal.

Secondly, the Quinn to the Broncos deal was not "internet rumor" it was much more than that. If you have a memory, and are honest, then it was common knowledge. It was in very advanced stages. Did the Broncos draft 12th?

Third, there were some sweet players available with that 5th pick. If we could have gotten Mack with the Edwards pick....

Impact level players, playmakers that EM has slipped through his fingers, here is a start for you.

There is a difference between "internet rumor" and historical fact. I have never read an argument that causes me to even consider that we couldn't have gotten at least a first for Braylon and moved Quinn to the Broncos for their pick.

ps. even butch could have decided on Ferguson that year.

OK... maybe not.

So your entire argument is based upon the fact that people with sources thought we may have gotten a first for Quinn or Edwards?

With all due respect, sir, I am to think that if we had gotten an offer like that for either player, they would have been gone in a snap. What you are passing off as fact is nothing more than mere speculation until you can provide me with suitable proof.

I have not seen anything concrete that leads me to believe that we could have gotten a first round pick for either of these two.

Happens all the time.. people hear that we coulda gotten this or that,,, with no real proof of what was offered,, and then they base arguments on it...

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA...

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Stuff like this is maddening. The reason we have to rely on practice squad players and young players is because Mangini didn't build our roster properly.

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That was not Mangini's job. That part was on Kokinis (another FO star riding the coattails of Ozzy ha ha) and we do NOT have enough details at this point to conclude that it was Mangini who had to build the roster and sucked at it. He is the HC, not GM. I know people say because of his power-hungry ego that he was the de facto Tzar, but we don't have the facts on that yet to come to such a strong conclusion that you just made. Give that more time. I want to know much more about the Kokinis fiasco. There is a lot more going on there. Kokopuffs had final say on roster moves and was hardly ever in the building. One thing I won't question with Cartman is that he actually puts the hours in and you can tell was at least trying.

That being said, I would gladly throw him under the bus as he has with some of his former colleagues for a much more established football czar who I know is good at talent acquisition and wants someone else. At the same time, I do have shreds of hope with him at the helm for the future if someone with the stones necessary to make the right decisions come draft/FA can work with the man.

The details about the Kokinis situation I find will either be somewhat redeeming or very damning for Mangini. We need to know that first before we make definite conclusions about him and talent acquisition, because that was not supposed to be his job and it looks like it eventually did. Kokinis is gone now. Mangini is not. That leads me to believe the guy who got the ax was more responsible for the aforementioned wrong-doings. Basically, hold the phone until we know all the details surrounding that situation. It will tell a very big part of the story...

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Either way, you have not shown me one bit of evidence that Mangini "hates" talent, just that he hasn't acquired any yet.

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I think he meant Mangini dislikes having a prima donna on his team. Talented, but with a a big head to go with a big ego.

Some coaches just coach those guys instead of fearing their presence. This one would rather not have the distraction. As talented as the Patriots have been I'm not sure they've had a prima donna. Or at least Belichick coached them into believing in the team concept with perhaps Moss as an example.

I think his point was that if Kokinis was actually doing his job maybe Mangini wouldn't have been forced to make those moves on his own. It's like blasting the navigator for flying the plane poorly when the pilot was in the back sleeping because he was drunk.

Here are the facts:

Kok was hired to be the GM
EM was hired to be the HC

Anything outside of that is just speculation. We don't really know if Kokinis stopped showing up at work because he figured out that he was Mangini's puppet. Or he stopped trying because he was just weak compared to Mangini. Or Mangini was making moves because Kokinis was suggesting even worse ideas. We don't really know yet.

Most on here aren't giving Mangini a passing grade as a GM and they want him no where near the draft. Fine. As a coach, I'm ok with leaving him in that position.

As Punchsmack just pointed out, anything regarding that situation right now is pure speculation aside from what they were brought in and hired to do. You could also connect the dots to Kokinis having a factory connection with Rex Ryan, too...

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that btw has always been the problem with "Im the King-bow down" personalities: they are prone to "nepotism" and surround themself with clowns so they look smarter and never feel challenged in their "King" role

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Ok I usually agree with most of your posts, but I don't think Ryan is a "lay down and take it" kinda guy and he isn't what I would call a clown.

I have to think that Mangini just brought these guys in because, like almost all the free agents, he is familiar with them

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This roster is Eric Mangini's. He should not get a pass for the failure of something he constructed.

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So you are saying that every one of those guys,, all Ex Jets, are failures?

Ya know how when you have to calibrate a piece of equipment, you have to find all the parameters first...

I just found yours so now I understand how to judge your comments... thanks

Mangini is simply auditioning for his new czar right now and the next three games will be very telling for his future, if the new czar even wants to consider him in the first place. I would be surprised if Lerner doesn't give the czar total control over who leads this team on the field and given the recent statements from Mangini, it suggests to me his fate lies with someone currently not employed by the Browns.

My personal opinion, if someone out there is a better fit for the new czar, lets bring him in, we really don't have much to lose and there is no way I want mangini any where near making those 11 draft picks.

It really could be that simple...

I swear Browns fans are like battered women. So many excuses.

We're going to end the year 3-13. We're going to have another draft like the one this year with half the group not dressing and others hurt in opportunity sessions.

We're going to bring in mid to low level free agents that have some connection to Mangini that will kiss the ring.

And next year in week 13 we're going to beat the Ravens to go to 2-11 and we're going to talking about the draft and how Mangini deserves another year to prove what he's doing.

Groundhog day over and over and over.

I don't know if Browns fans even know what a good coach and good GM are even anymore.

I wrote this up last Friday but did not think it warranted it's own thread. So...thanks Daman for starting this one.

Mangini guts the team of average to below-average guys – many of whom are now out of the league – and replaces them with average to below-average guys…all with Koko as his supposed GM.

Koko gets canned mid-season – leaving “I don’t know who” to evaluate available waiver or PS players - and we pick up arguably our best LB in Roth and our best TE in Moore. Then we activate possibly our 2nd or 3rd best LB from our own practice squad in Benard.

QUESTION: Who put on the GM pants and found Roth and Moore? Was it EM? Or some guy in the FO (Bernie?) with some eye for talent?

The best NT on the planet goes on IR. The most disappointing 4-3 DT who can’t seem to do squat at end in a 3-4 complains about playing time - and states he would do better “inside” - finally gets a chance to play “inside” in our 3-4 and looks like a freakin’ NT stud.

QUESTION: We still need more/better draft picks…Rogers is not young and coming off an injury…if C Williams really IS a viable NT as it appeared against Pitt…would you trade Rogers and go with Williams and Rubin at NT? Or…

Would you stop the insanity of Williams at DE and just slide Rogers over to DE?

Our two starting ILBs go down for the year – along with two of our starting DL and a starting S – and we play the best defensive game of the year against our most-hated rival.

QUESTION: Does anyone miss Barton or DQ?

By all accounts, our OL stinks on the right side and we have no true RB after the great JL goes to IR So…we go out and run very well on the best run defense in the league…albeit with the help of that-wild-cat named Cribbs.

QUESTION: Did you see St Claire running down filed in front of Cribbs on that play looking to squash a defender? Then “falling” on the falling DB and squashing that guy into the ground? Did you see Mack blocking all over the place?

Most of what I posted either makes me think EM is a ding-dong for playing guys - as starters - who are gone but we certainly do not miss...OR...

EM really does have a plan and that plan required waiting until certain guys were ready - or available - and could not happen until ready.

That Squeeler beatdown - which will only serve to hurt our draft position next spring yet at the same time was a thing of ugly beauty - and these late, post-Koko pickups, along with our team not giving up on the nutcase that is EM has me doing one of these

I am as confused about EM’s NFL future as I am BQ’s.

Coleman is definitely an average starter.

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The 2-11 isn't what bothers me. It's everything that went into how we've gotten to 2-11 is what does. And the other unnecessary things around it.

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I agree. I think Mangini still has a long, long way to go to ensure job safety heading into next season. While firing a coach after one season doesn't look good on the surface, anyone who has seen some of what's gone on here wouldn't be totally surprised. I don't think it would affect any coach coming here either. At the very least, it could be chalked up to the new Czar just wanting his own guy. I mean it wouldn't be like he was firing Vince Lombardi.

The signs were there all along that this could turn out to be a disaster. It still is, but there are some bright spots.

I will echo some of the thoughts of others.

1) The Browns hired a coach, and got a coach, gm and bottle washer all in one. The problem is, we need a coach, gm and bottle washer to function as an organization. The Kokinis debacle just illustrates that there was no checks and balances in the organization. It was Mangini's show.

2) The draft. I have no issue about the trade back, and don't have any real comment about the two moves back. But I really questioned the three second round selections, I felt that the Browns did not address their most pressing need, the ability to pressure the QB. I know I voiced that concern afterwards and got into a tiff about it. But there were several players on the board at the time in the first (Maclin, Ayers, Mathews) and second (E. Brown, Barwin, McCoy) that could have fit more pressing needs, although WR was a pressing need as well. I just hope that Veikune works out.

3) It is understandable that Mangini brought in some players that he was familiar with. But the degree to which this occured, just does not make sense. To me this exposed Mangini as a coach that favors scheme over talent, when in fact both are needed.

4) The same can be said of Daboll, this was a decision based on a friendship rather than a resume.

5) I have no problem with the dealing of Winslow and Edwards.

6) I have major problems with the bringing in of marginal replacement players. (Royal, Womack, St Clair, Poteat.)

7) I have problems with the purge of second year players in favor of their marginal replacements.

8) The inability to bring the whole Quinn / Anderson issue to a conclusion before the season started hurt the team.

The record is reflective of the results. The Browns went from 4 and 12, or more realistically a 6 to 7 win team considering the loss of Anderson and Quinn to a non fuctional basement dweller challenging for the first overall selection.

As a coach, some of the second half adjustments have generally not been in the Browns favor.

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7) I have problems with the purge of second year players in favor of their marginal replacements.

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Which ones, exactly?

Rucker is on a practice squad. Bell is out of the league. (as far as I know, anyway) These guys were 4th rounders, and marginal talents, with marginal long term posibilities at best. Paul Hubbard was a receiver who couldn't catch, and I don't believe that he's on an NFL roster either. Ahtyba Rubin made the team and has played well.

IIRC, that's our entire 2008 "sophmore" draft class.

Which players are proving Mangini wrong by playing their way onto an NFL roster?

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3) It is understandable that Mangini brought in some players that he was familiar with. But the degree to which this occured, just does not make sense. To me this exposed Mangini as a coach that favors scheme over talent, when in fact both are needed.

6) I have major problems with the bringing in of marginal replacement players. (Royal, Womack, St Clair, Poteat.)

7) I have problems with the purge of second year players in favor of their marginal replacements.

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To me, these three are tied together. But I don't think these were done with the expectation that these mediocre replacements would be All Pros or long term solutions. This is more a byproduct of Mangini committing to completely blowing this thing up and building through the draft. Thus, he's not going to sign high priced, high end free agents until he has built a foundation of good young talent. Rather, he will sign cheap, marginal free agents that know the system and can teach it to younger players.

Even though it has led to 2-11, I like this approach long term because the Browns now have a ton of picks (11) and a lot of money to spend on free agents next year. To me, this is about the best you can expect of a total purge. It is also a shift towards what the most successful teams in the league do. How often do the Patriots, Colts or Steelers sign or trade for a high priced player? They largely don't do this but build through the draft. That's why they have sustainable success.

The past few years in Cleveland Savage has made several trades and/or signings that have bloated the salary structure of the team and robbed the team of scores of draft picks (Rogers, Williams come to mind).
Just look at the top ten player salaries from last offseason: http://www.sportscity.com/NFL/Cleveland-Browns-Salaries

Only Thomas and Rogers are even remotely worth their cap number. Thus, I believe this roster blow up was completely necessary.

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Oh, but I remember...in his PR-interviews from the last weeks he was quick to point out that the penalties have diminished....he likes to pimp himself with that....he would name more...but there really isn't another good one out there ....the rest is "believe in plan/process"

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Look, I'm no big Mangini fan... but fair is fair Jango... the Penalties have diminished and I didn't hear him taking personal credit for it.. I do remember him saying "WE" reduced the penalities... I took it to mean the team... with the coaches included.. Actually, that is probably where the credit deserves to be given...

Your point is received, but I do not feel this is that sort of condition. I do not like the guy, but I am starting to see results - even in our losses like the Chargers game - and results is all I care about. I do not give a rat's ass about the coaches personality or likability because I'm not having him over for dinner any time soon.

I do not feel that the fact that we were losing was as big of an issue as the manner in which we were losing. We were routinely getting our asses handed to us in complete blowouts at the start of the season... We weren't even remotely competitive. That was, BY FAR, more of an issue for me than us not winning the games.

However, as the season has progressed, that trend has steadily reversed. Yes, we've still lost plenty of games, but this team has drastically improved. You can still see where we are heavily talent deficient, but you can also now see where things are going wrong simply because a guy was out of place.... and you can see guys that used to be out of place all the time not doing it nearly as much (Maiva). The Pittsburgh game may have been us playing miles above our heads - or it is things starting to click (at least on defense). Given what I've seen in other games, I think that things are starting to click. The offense still sucks, and it will continue to, but it is definitely getting better... that is undeniable (by anyone that is both sane and objective, anyway). Nothing short of more talent is going to take us to the next level, but I can truly see that yes, there is a new culture installed in Cleveland - one of hard work, playing hard and doing your job. Believe it or not, things ARE getting better.