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Thanks for the read..
Seems like a lot for Mangini to overcome to remain. Not that it can't happen, but it will be difficult.
According to Holmgren, and I'm paraphrasing here, Mangini has to be able to either adapt to his ideas and plans, or Mangini has to convince MH that his way is better...
Not to mention the seemingly overwhelming disfavor Mangini seems to have fallen into in these parts.
Couple all that with Holmgrens statement about these last few games won't sway him, but instead will look at the entire body of work,, Things may not look too good for Mangini come Monday...
I see difficulty ahead, no matterwhat. But, we'll see...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Thanks for my new sig...hilarious
I find it boorish, that you or anyone else would hurl a veiled insult at someone who is merely stating an opinion, by using it as a sig.
You can do better, django.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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He might not fire "HIS" guy after one year. Who knows about someone elses guy! 
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So you are saying mangini didn't do any of the things i claim he did??
What Mangini did accomplish this season..
Built a team atmosphere.
Where? what? who? This team looks as inconsistent and 2 faced as ever
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Got players to buy into what he was doing.
and what is it what he "was" or is doing? I'd still like to know what that is all about
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Got players to work hard, even while they were losing.
Wow...I haven't seen our CBs play hard all season...actually their play looked effortless for most of this year...even some of his aquisitions (Elam, Womack, StClair, Poteat)
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Got players to understand their roll and the roll of their teammates on both sides of the ball.
If by "role" you mean sucking....then yeah, they got that down for the most part...
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Set the table for the draft, and FA in the upcoming off season.
Which GM doesn't? There are reports out there that PS players didn't want to come here...I've read articles where it was stated that we had plenty of cap room unused for this season...why?
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Instilled discipline, and accountability.
Has someone ever wondere at what cost? Players in NY talked about "walking on eggshells"..it's nie to get flagged less...but I'd rather lose 20yds more per gameday on penalties than lose 50+ on Offense and Defense
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Got players to play smart and above their talent level.
Players that have no talent have to be smart in order to be in this league...and yes by default they THEN play abover their talent....but that's all useless...because the question remains: after all that...is their production enough to field a consistently good team? Most of the guys your cheering here are well below average league wise: Trusnik, Jennings, Bowens, Costanzo, Ventrone and 12 other ST etc
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Looked under every rock, CFL, Practice Squads, Waiver Wire, Back Alley, in an attempt to improve the talent of the team.
He sure went the blind squirrel route until he found Moore (we're talking about the 3rd or 4th TE brought in....after Estandia, Gaines and whatnot) and Benard...wait he had them right in front of his eyes for weeks on the prctice field...yeah, the guy knows talent 
Roth was a no brainer...a starter for a better team with similar scheme...half dozen teams claimed him to...he got lucky he "managed" to lose that DET game, else he would be in DET now...dumb luck, actually a gift for his poor coaching job (to accomplish to lose a 3 score lead against DET)
That said....your PRO arguments aren't as golden as you think...and I might be able to double that list with some clear cut NEG arguments 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Thanks for my new sig...hilarious
I find it boorish, that you or anyone else would hurl a veiled insult at someone who is merely stating an opinion, by using it as a sig.
You can do better, django.
For me it's all fun with that...after all I'm responsible for 2 or 3 of them myself but have no problem with. If anybody feels offended by this, I'll remove it in a hurry...esp.Brown to the Bone just needs to say it (post or PM)...
and I'll promise I won't keep it forever...the draft is nearing, so I'll use it to pimp some prospects for sure 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Excuse me YTown , but is there any other goal for a team other than winning? Am I amiss in thinking that a team goes in thinking anything other than Super Bowl?
If you think about it Savage/RAC did the same thing in '05 as Mangini did this year. They purged the roster and brought in bums and warm bodies to fill in positions while they used the season to evaluate the rest of the roster. It wasn't until the next season, '06, that Savage began really start building the team after he felt he knew what he had. I've brought it up before because I can never forget him saying early in the '05 season that he wished he could fast-forward to the end of the season so he could get to work.
That's not to say they didn't try their asses off to win every game. But with the talent the way it was it was not in their destiny to make the playoffs. So you try your ass off and evaluate your roster.
Where Mangini took it a step further was he didn't always play the best guy. He often played a lesser player over a better guy just to get a look at him. He treated the season much like an extended pre-season. I don't think RAC did that so much. It's one reason we didn't get blown out so often as has happened this season. Mangini's way may be a quicker, more thorough way to evaluate the roster during the season but it also lends itself to a historically bad 1-11 record, an angry fan base and all the media grief he's earned for himself.
#gmstrong
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I remember a thread that was started about winning out or losing games for a better draft pick...It would feel real good at least for myself...to see the team finish with a 4 game win streak... I`m all about anything possitive at this point in time...
What that will have to do with EM`s job I don`t know.....
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From Cleveland.com This is just the first part, the rest is commentary on the Cavs. Quote:
Terry Pluto's Talkin' ... about defending the Browns' 3-4, the Cavaliers' imposing big men and Cooperstown votes
By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
January 03, 2010, 4:45AM
About the Browns' defense
1. No matter who is the coach next season, here's hoping the Browns keep Rob Ryan and the 3-4 defense. You can see the improvement as the players are becoming more accustomed to the different schemes designed by head coach Eric Mangini and Ryan. In the first eight games the Browns allowed 170 yards rushing per game. In the last seven, it's 117 yards. In the first eight games, they had 16 sacks, it's 21 in the last seven games.
2. In six of the first eight games, the Browns gave up at least 27 points. In the last seven, it has happened three times. Total points per game: 26.1 in the first eight, 21.3 since then. All is not perfect, but you can see the progress. You also can see the Ryan/Mangini 3-4 is far more creative than the form of that defense used by former coach Romeo Crennel.
3. This form of the 3-4 is designed to bring blitzes from different spots, and the Browns rank eight in the NFL with 37 sacks. Early in the season, the coaches threw too many different schemes at the players. The assumption was that having played the 3-4 defense for the previous four years, the players would be ready for a variety of formations. That turned out to be wrong. It took eight games for many to truly grasp the different concepts, and for the coaches to keep designing formations that bring out the best in the talent.
4. Sixteen players have had sacks this season. Kamerion Wimbley (drawing raves from the coaches for his overall play) leads with 6.5. Next is David Bowens at 5.5, followed by Corey Williams and Matt Roth with four. Roth is a jewel, picked up from Miami only five games ago and making an immediate impact. Non-drafted Marcus Benard came off the practice squad to deliver three sacks.
5. Hard to believe, but injuries to starters may have helped the defense. The Browns are better against the run with Ahtyba Rubin at nose guard than Shaun Rogers. Rubin takes up more space in the middle, while Rogers likes to rush the quarterback -- leaving some running holes in the center of the line. A real plus has been Bowens moving from outside to inside linebacker after Eric Barton and D'Qwell Jackson went down with injuries. The Bowens/Rubin change was a major positive. Another move that helped was replacing Brandon McDonald at cornerback with Mike Adams.
6. The only members of the defense starting at the same spots as they were at the beginning of the season are cornerback Eric Wright, safety Abe Elam, outside linebacker Wimbley and defensive ends Robaire Smith and Kenyon Coleman (if healthy).
7. The coaches love Smith, who recently went to the blackboard and diagrammed 13 different options from a certain formation, able to show what each member of the defense should do -- not just the linemen. Wimbley struggled early with the variety of schemes and assignments, but he really begun to understand the system.
8. Mangini on the defense: "We are just starting to scratch the surface of what we can do. Next year, you will see a lot more." He is right, which is why the 3-4 should stay, and why it can be even better with some more additions.
9. The offense also has improved in the second half: 9.8 points scored to 20.6; 99 yards rushing to 154 per game. Turnovers have been slashed from 26 to seven in the last seven games, sacks cut from 19 to 11.
10. If the Browns beat Jacksonville, they will finish at 5-11. Hard to believe, but in the last 11 years, only four seasons (2001, 2002, 2005 and 2007) have the Browns won more than five games. If they do win Sunday, it's a four-game streak, the longest since the team's return in 1999.
11. Mangini believes the cold weather can be an asset to the Browns, who continually practice outside. As he mentioned, the Browns have won their four games despite completing a total of 26 passes. They won running the ball, not making turnovers.
12. What Mangini learned from his players this season: "Sometimes, when I thought a message was clearly communicated, it may not have been as clear as I thought. ... You can't over-communicate with players ... almost any problem can be solved if you sit down and talk about it. ... You can tell them the door is open, but they have to be pretty strong and confident to knock on it. ... Sometimes, you have to walk them up there, you have to entice them and have them go through the door."
A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams.
John Barrymore
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I have been pondering and I know thats never a good thing but ponder with me for a second.
Holmgren wants his coaches and his scheme on O. He has never really given a rats booty about D.
holmgren fires Mangini's O staff brings in his guys to run his Offense while he takes a year to decide if he wants to be HC or maybe wait a year on Gruden.
Mangini runs a tight camp and practice. His organizational skills are very good if you have been to camp. No time is wasted.
Could this marriage so to speak work out?
Now i dont think there is any chance that we are running another offensive scheme other than Holmgren's but I am beginning to think Mangini might be willing to throw his O staff under the bus to survive. (thought that wzs why he didnt fire daboll earlier anyway)
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I'd definately like to see the 4 game streak. I'll be on the couch rooting for it all the way. And Mangini will be busting his ass trying to make it happen. Evaluations are over. Plus he's coaching for his job, or thinks he is, at this time. With all the hoop-la of the this past season I'm sure he wants to finish out. The players do too. For what it's worth they've got a streak going and don't want to lose it.
Good to see you posting.
#gmstrong
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That article makes me want to say again that I love the 3-4 because of how it can fool defenses. The designs are sound, but people like Savage and now Mangini have failed to acquire guys to run it. I'd prefer to keep it, but would completely understand if Holmgren went back to the 4-3. Why? Because the guys we have on this roster aren't 3-4 specific. Five years later, we're just as close to a 4-3 roster as we are a 3-4 
Now using a bunch of these stats of the last few games is as transparent as many people on this board, because I KNOW he's smarter than that. We've played some real scrubs, and the 8-sacks against the Steelers in a weather-game were an anomaly, making us look better than what we really are.
Finally, Kam Wimbley drawing raves for his play..........sure, even the last couple of years I've said I see improved play from him, but that doesn't mean he's good. His primary job is to be able to disrupt and get to the backfield, and that's something he's simply not very good at. When nobodies on this team have as many pressures and sacks as he does, that tells you the scheme has helped him load up on stats (such as they are *L*). He isn't part of the solution for this team. He's been part of the problem for three years now.
As they've done in the past, Scouts Inc. always updates their scouting reports at the end of the year. To that end, his report is EXACTLY what we've talked about. Here it is:
Quote:
Comment: After exploding onto the scene as a rookie, Wimbley has failed to improve and his ability to get after the quarterback is diminishing. Still, there is a lot to work with here and his upside still remains quite high. Wimbley is a bit of a one-trick pony as a pass-rusher, as he relies on his speed off the edge too much and doesn't demonstrate effective counter moves.
People in the NFL will tell you that pass-rushers are natural, not taught. By his 3rd year, rushers are at their peak. In his 5th year, Wimbley isn't going to get better at his primary job. Sad, but true.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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That second of pondering with you was enjoyable ... I like what you are saying there... I would have no regrets with that decision if MH & EM could unite their ways and make it work... The only other thing i would bring up to you is Grudens availability to the team....if i`m not mistaken is Gruden stating that it would be 2 years before he returned to take a coaching job ?
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Deisle, a report surfaced a month or so ago that said he was contractually locked in to ESPN for the 2010 season.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Deisle, a report surfaced a month or so ago that said he was contractually locked in to ESPN for the 2010 season.
I keep seeing this rumor:
Would Holmgren keep Mangini for a year to get Gruden? The only problem I see is that the year Gruden would be available is most likely lockout year.
Go Browns!!![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/BrowniePoints/AndersonSnowPic.jpg)
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Thanks ddubia....and here it is another season gone...and we got together how many times to watch a game ? neighbor That goes for GM also... As for Mangini.... He did keep this team playing when they could have quit... The wins are what every one wants from top to bottom.... no one wants quitters....and that he did`nt let them do...
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It`s reportedly for a year then not 2 years....Thanks Toad !
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Deisle, you were actually right in your recollection. Gruden DID say "2 years." However, the report that came out via the media spoke of Gruden being locked in to ESPN for 2010. That is a little unusual for broadcasters because forever it's been a given that the language in these contracts for former coaches going into the booth stated they could opt-out of the contract at any time if they wanted to return to the league. However, the language in this specific contract appears to be different.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Deisle, you were actually right in your recollection. Gruden DID say "2 years." However, the report that came out via the media spoke of Gruden being locked in to ESPN for 2010. That is a little unusual for broadcasters because forever it's been a given that the language in these contracts for former coaches going into the booth stated they could opt-out of the contract at any time if they wanted to return to the league. However, the language in this specific contract appears to be different.
Has this even been verified? I mean I've seen it mentioned but at this point is it past the point of a rumor and confirmed fact?
Go Browns!!
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Loki, is anything that's reported by the media ever verified as "actual fact"??
It came out through ESPN's radio. Here's a quote: Quote:
ESPN 980 today confirmed that Gruden’s contract with Monday Night Football is “iron clad.”
Take it for what it's worth. It could be true, it could be false. It's ESPN, afterall. 
One has to think that Bruce Allen would have much preferred to work with Gruden instead of Shanahan, but the worst-kept secret is that Shanahan is the next coach of the Redskins. That tells me the report of Gruden being stuck at ESPN is probably true.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Given the fact as to now... We don`t know what MH`s plans are for EM.... and to assume that EM stays on board for another season, And that he does well enough to earn the respect of MH .. There may be no reason to discuss Gruden... all in assumption that is..
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Well remember when we were talking about Mangini had to win out to have a chance to keep his job...and he just did that. The Browns 4 game winning streak sure has made Mangini's future interesting to say the least.
Go Browns!!
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Well remember when we were talking about Mangini had to win out to have a chance to keep his job...and he just did that. The Browns 4 game winning streak sure has made Mangini's future interesting to say the least.
Well, he did at least keep himself in the NFL. He'll get a coordinator spot now if he does get fired.
you had a good run Hank.
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First 4 game win streak since '94 FWIW. Kind of an unreal stat.
Not sure what Holmgren does with Mangini but whatever the decision, I'll trust MH.
I personally think we'll keep him 1 more season but we shall see.
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j/c
Give Mangini a chance for one more year. The team improved A LOT towards the end of the season.
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j/c
Give Mangini a chance for one more year. The team improved A LOT towards the end of the season.
I'm going to trust whatever MH wants to do. The guy knows how to hire people.
I think Daboll is gone and Ryan is still here. I do not know about Mangini but I would be fine with the decision either way.
you had a good run Hank.
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Mangini is looking to be a very promising coach. It might have taken all year---but we are seeing progress. We are playing the type of football that wins in the AFC North.
4 in a row, starting with the hated rival Steelers. This team and locker room are coming together. This team doesn't use injuries as excuses---they plug in another guy and win.
Mangini needs to stay and he will build something great here.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Quote:
Mangini is looking to be a very promising coach. It might have taken all year---but we are seeing progress. We are playing the type of football that wins in the AFC North.
4 in a row, starting with the hated rival Steelers. This team and locker room are coming together. This team doesn't use injuries as excuses---they plug in another guy and win.
Mangini needs to stay and he will build something great here.
I sure hate to agree with you but I think I do. We'll have to wait and see how Holmgren sees it. I'm betting we know by the end of the week.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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I am more proud of this Browns team than any since 1999. If there was ever a coach and team that had EVERY reason to just pack it in, it was this one. What they did together over the last 4 weeks is nothing short of amazing. Too bad we dont get to keep playing as we would be tough out in the tournament right now.
I would like to see what EM can do with some more talent on the roster. I wonder if Randy has ANY impact on the walrus's decision.
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I'll say this, Mangini certainly delivered on his promise to bring in people who love football and play hard all the time.
I really wish we didn't give him all the power...man, do I wish we didn't do that.
you had a good run Hank.
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There's gonna be a ton of "end of the season evaluation" threads, so I'll go more into detail then, but while the winning streak is great, the real story goes much deeper than just the streak itself. The situations for each game played huge roles in these wins, and the things we've done aren't going to be possible during most normal seasons. From Cribbs' returns winning two games to the weather elements, there are still huge question marks above-and-beyond just saying "the team sure has improved under Mangini so he deserves another year."
Keep in mind I really like many of the things Mangini does. That's why I was all for his hire. Things such as not putting up with POS players (Winslow and Edwards) to keeping his cards close to the vest with the media are really the right way to do things. However, there are equally puzzling moves, and even some that were flat-out bad decisions, which make his viability as a head-coach questionable. Then there's the fact that as a Czar, Holmgren SHOULDN'T keep a head-coach when the systems are so different.
I think the only way Mangini survives is if Holmgren has his minds-eye on 2011.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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If he's thinking of a possible 2011 return doesn't that kind of fly in the face of his "shoulda pulled the trigger sooner" comments from his Seahawk days?
If I had the power and wanted to coach I'd go do it and not waste a season letting my new squad get to know me.
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where are all the posts that were gonna wait until after this game to make a decision? I was against Mangini all year, but I gotta give credit where credit is due. I hope MH and Mangini can work something out together and not just for 1 year. JMO but I really don't want Chuckie in here.
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It does not matter what Mangini wants to do now. He has to meet with Holmgren and plead his case. There were alot of factors in this winning streak that will not lend it self to a entire season. Plus, Holmgren has figure out what coach he can work with, then Holmgen and whoever the coaches are have to start evaluating college talent plus the talent on this team.
With the amount of potential picks this coming year, Holmgren and the coaching staff have to get it right!!
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Legend
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Quote:
Give Mangini a chance for one more year. The team improved A LOT towards the end of the season.
Did the team improve, or did the competition get weaker?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I am a big fan of Holmgren hiring a offensive HC, a OC and keeping Ryan. I think we'll know soon no matter what he decides. Maybe even tomorrow.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
Quote:
Give Mangini a chance for one more year. The team improved A LOT towards the end of the season.
Did the team improve, or did the competition get weaker?
A combo I'm sure.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 512
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 512 |
I think without a doubt Jax was a tougher opp. than OAK and KC maybe not PITT. so not sure about what your saying there
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
I really hope that Mangini gets another year. I think that he's the right kind of coach .... and really, the right coach for Cleveland.
I have had this one thing running through my head since the game ..... and that is ... would you rather win your last 4 games to wind up 5-11 ...... or lose your last 4 (ala Jacksonville) to finish at 7-9?
I think I like the looks of 5-11 a whole lot more in that comparison.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 512
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 512 |
draft position be damned, if it was meant to be than it will be 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
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If he's thinking of a possible 2011 return doesn't that kind of fly in the face of his "shoulda pulled the trigger sooner" comments from his Seahawk days?
If I had the power and wanted to coach I'd go do it and not waste a season letting my new squad get to know me.
That.......but I'm more thinking of John Gruden. Remember that ESPN radio verified (for what that's worth) that Gruden is locked-in to his telecast contract. If he wants Gruden, he'll have to wait. The best way to wait is to leave Mangini in place. Can't bring in a lame-duck new coach, can't make a fake-hire from within, and he can't come down to the field for one year then go back upstairs.
So there are three possible reasons to keep Mangini: He believes in him and thinks Mangini can handle being stripped of all power while Holmgren puts in his own coordinators, personnel, and systems (unlikely IMHO), he wants to leave Mangini out there to take one more season of tough play while Holmgren rebuilds the roster and team, or finally, because he's waiting on Gruden.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mangini and Next Year
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