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Quote:
I want to know what everyone ELSE HONESTLY thinks about Quinn now.
Are you people being honest with yourselves? Or are you caught up in the euphoria of a Steelers win?
Are you using Daboll and the young receivers as an excuse for Quinn, or are you able to judge him based on his own body of work?
I really want to know............... 
I'll throw my opinion out there, but I'm warning you... I picked my username for a reason. 
1. I think that the wind and cold probably affected Quinn somewhat. Seeing as how BigFat Ben has routinely torched the Browns in the past (and didn't so much last night), that shows the weather was an issue.
2. I think the receivers still need to improve. Quinn also needs some time to gel with said receivers. There is shared responsibility here.
3. I think Quinn just needs to be out there longer. You say he's a third year QB, but I say horse-poo. What could he have possibly taken from those past seasons?
4. I think Quinn HAS improved. I expect him to continue to do so. He will have to improve for the rest of the season, and really show something at the beginning of next season.
I want the best people at all positions, and that includes QB. I like Quinn because I think he can be that guy (it's probably more hope at this point, but oh well). He has to show alot of improvement (consistent improvement). I think he can do it, but we'll see.
If Quinn totally plateaus and plays exactly how he has since re-becoming the starter, then I'm content to let him stay in and build around him until that "can't miss" QB comes around. At that point, Quinn gets a one-way ticket to the bench. No return trip this time.
I'm still 
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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jc
I really don't kow how anyone wants more of BQ in 2010...he is horrible on so many levels. Guy isn't even a good game manager, he is even too inaccurate for that.....he constantly throws from his back foot and hopps on his throws, almosts NEVER setting his feet...thus his "floaters" and inaccuracy....this is his 3rd year in the league and I'm sure it's a gameday thing....he is simply too scared of actually PLAYING his position....guy is a puss, let's call a spade a spade...he does not want to get hit and gets nervous real quick...thus the dump offs and constant backwards running...this will even make his OL look bad since it collapses the pocket by default...I think I have yet to see a BQ throw where he set waited till the last second, stepped up INTO the pocket and THREW a ball (not PUSH like a female hammer thrower) and then getting HIT....NEVER...that's what you need to see out of your QB too....if he doesn't he isn't even a team player, sorry...his WR and RB take all kinds of hits cause of his dump offs and floaters and BQ's #1 priority seems to be not to get injured
Summary: he doesn't have the GUTS and TALENT to be a NFL starter at QB and imho it's pretty evident....how someone cannot see/evaluate this without blinders on is really beyond me
#gmstrong
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just clicking...nrtu..
Browns fans and gurus...
...While the our fans and gurus rain praise and criticism down on Quinn, I'm going to wait to see what happens with the coaching staff after this season. But there are other areas our fans and gurus can examine.
I would rather look at the aspect of game most don't consider much. What is the quality of the coaching staff that attempts to teach, develop and improve the play of our QBs.
Some of our gurus and fans want everyone to believe that looking at other areas, such as QB prep, QB coaching and the offensive coaching staff is just an excuse for poor QB play...but it's a fact, especially with young QB still developing, the QB support team might be an issue that deserves further examination.
Here is the problem with trying to exam the Browns QB support team, which includes QB coach, OC and anyone else the Browns have hired to help teach and develop our QBs....none of us (especially the hyper critical gurus) have access to that side coin. All of us see the "performance" side of the coin...but we never see the "preparation" side of the coin.
I can hear some of our gurus now...mac is just making excuses for Quinn (even though I'm not really a Quinn guy). But without seeing the flip side of a good or bad performance, everyone assessment is rather half_____, IMO.
There is a very good reason I want to exam both sides of the coin, the preperation side of the coin and the performance side of the coin....both Anderson and Quinn have performed well at times.
DT gurus are fast at jumping on the poor performances, but they seem to dismiss the good performances. That fact, smells of "agenda", IMO.
No, I'm not making excuses, boys...I try to look at a much bigger picture than the jack rabbites who are eager to praise or tear down Browns QBs.
There is a very good reason I want to exam both sides of the coin, the preparation side of the coin and the performance side of the coin....both Anderson and Quinn have performed well at times.
Our gurus are fast at jumping on the poor performances, but they seem to dismiss the good performances. That fact, smells of "agenda", IMO.
No, I'm not making excuses, boys...I try to look at a much bigger picture than the jack rabbits who are eager to praise or tear down Browns QBs.
Like I said, both Quinn and Anderson have performed well at times...Anderson, at a very high level 2 yrs ago and Quinn at times this year. I ask myself the question...How can Quinn play well against the Chargers and then look so poor against the Steelers?
Why is Quinn's QB play "inconsistent" ?...was the weather a factor, was it the short week, did the staff do a good job of preparing Quinn for the Steelers game? IMO, this is the question Browns fans and our gurus should be examining...why is Quinn inconsistent?
But Browns fans and message board gurus don't have access to the kind of information needed to answer such questions as...did the weather affect Quinn...did the short week affect Quinn...did the short week affect the coaching staff's prep of Quinn?
BINGO...fans and gurus don't have access to that kind of information..the information that would allow us to exam that side of the coin. We only see the game side...the performance side. We see one side of the coin, then some claim they know Quinn is not a NFL caliber QB.
I look at a bigger picture and ask myself, why is it that Quinn can play well at times and poorly at other times? He clearly shows the ability to play the game at an NFL level, at times...so why not on a consistent basis?
Even though I don't have access to all the info needed to answer that question, I can at least attempt to examine that side of the game, even though it would be much easier to just look at the performance side Quinn's (Steelers game) performance.
QB coaching, support staff, game prep, practice time, film study, game plan...everything that goes into developing our QBs needs to be examined...not just the results.
Your thoughts?....
Last edited by mac; 12/12/09 10:50 AM.
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Quote:
everything that goes into developing our QBs needs to be examined...not just the results.
Your thoughts?....
Since we have no inside info on that we can only go from the "results"...and that's what matters most at the end....who cares what he looks like on Wednesday in training? It's his 3rd year...this should be no excuse anymore...it's all bottom line with me right now....what you see is what you will get...and I don't like it and see not much upside because the deficiencies he has can't be corrected easily or at all (ie: how do you teach him NOT to be a scared puss on gameday?)....he has horrible, I mean HORRIBLE, mechanics....how do you correct this? He's no rook anymore...if he hasn't learned this by now chances increase he never will
Oh and again, he never played "good" against the Chargers...."not as bad"? yeah, but still far from good.....
I'm starting to see a pattern with BQ...he has his better games against weak Front 7s (DET is crap and SD missed half their Front 7 starters)....why? he gets pressured less (or he has the feeling he gets less pressure, cause I think once you pressure BQ on some consecutive plays, he's done for the night even with less pressure applied....he gets scared and dumps off or jumps around).....BQ will look decent against crap Front 7 and bad against better ones, which still makes him a bad QB overall
Pressure up the gut is the best gameplan against BQ....see BAL game
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Since we have no inside info on that we can only go from the "results"...
DJ...Exactly the point I'm making, thank you. You and I only see one side of the coin and if we are trying to form our opinion without even considering the other side of that coin, what does that say about us?.
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It's his 3rd year...this should be no excuse anymore...it's all bottom line with me right now....what you see is what you will get
I've been over this claim before...3 yrs?
The 3 yr claim is totally false and those claiming it know so...I smell agenda everytime someone claims Quinn has played 3 yrs therefore, "what we see is what we get".
How many games has Quinn started?...55 games?
55 games would be equal to 2 yrs and 13 games worth of starts...tell me, how many games "has" Quinn started?
DJ, I'm not going to respond to everything you posted but it is a prime example of what I'm talking about in my post...those who fail to look at facts, that are not so obvious..the other side of the coin.
You take the results, and put your "spin" on them and pretend you are qualified to declare Quinn is crap. You are definitly "agenda" driven, attempting to shade the facts at every opportunity.
I say Quinn's performance against S.D. (25/45, 271yds,3td,0int,95rat) was a good game but your agenda will not allow you to agree..(.he never played "good" against the Chargers...."not as bad").
You claim that Quinn showed better against "weak Front 7s" even though S.D. pass defense is one of the best, ranked at 8 this week.
Then you claim you know why Quinn had better games against Det. and SD..."he gets pressured less"...DUH...
DUH (again)...it is a basic fact of football, when QBs are protected and get enough time, they perform better. Did you see how Roethlisberger looked when our defense put pressure on him? Did you see how Favre looked last week when the Cardinals put pressure on him?
The Browns are no different than any other NFL football team...when we have protected out QBs, they played well...when we didn't protect our QBs, their performance suffered.
You may have exposed a fact that you have been missing...maybe if the Browns focus on building a better offensive line that protects our QBs better, it might help BQ and DA develop into better performing QBs.
DJ...try to force yourself to dump the "agenda" and analize that other side of the coin. Then we can have a "football" conversation...mac
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Quote:
Pressure up the gut is the best gameplan against BQ....see BAL game
Pressure up the gut is a good gameplan against any quarterback. Except maybe Peyton. MAYBE.
I admit though I have concerns about BQ's accuracy. he has to clean it up and I'm not sure an NFL can do a whole lot about it by the time he's in the league.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Mac, it's not agenda...it's what I see....
Of course every QB does WORSE with more pressure...problem is: BQ does NOTHING....he is completely taken out of the game by pressure although he can run and although he is supposed to have brains....it's my opinion that he is a scared puss out there....that's what I've seen out of him
Also, you cut my quote to make an argument, please don't do that:
I said what you see is what you get...AND that I don't see any upside
Also, the 3 years were CLEARLY attached to his mechanics...I never wrote anything about starts and experience but I agree with Toad there: he should be much further along.....11 or 50 starts....5.5yds/pass attempt just won't cut it in this league
I just think that "all those other factors we don't know about" is the last straw excuse argument to back BQ...think about it: if THAT is his biggest PRO argument, it's a pretty sad and weak one....same with Mangini PRO arguments....give REAL PRO arguments...something that is evident...right now he can't make all NFL throws and looks like a 5th round rook when pressured....that and horrible mechanics is what I see....how should "other factors we don't know about" change that? It's just a slanted form of the "believe" argument (it's not a real argument since it's based on hope...the big X-factor argument to kill all criticism.."hey Django, but there's X we don't know about, so stfu"....I don't think it's a good argument, it's not one at all to be honest)....looking worse than last year doesn't help too.....league adjusted and he can't answer back
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Quote:
I would rather look at the aspect of game most don't consider much. What is the quality of the coaching staff that attempts to teach, develop and improve the play of our QBs.
Everyone looks at the coaches, and looking at Carl Smith, here's the guys bio (albeit in a broken form):Quote:
Coaching career (HC unless noted)
1971
1972-1973
1974-1978
1979-1981
1982
1983-1985
1986-1996
1997-1999
2001-2003
2004
2005-2007
2009 Cal Poly (GA)
Colorado (GA; LB)
SW Louisiana (DL; DB; OC)
Lamar (OC; OC/OL)
NC State (OC)
Phil/Balt Stars (ST; QB/WR)
New Orleans Saints (OC/QB)
New England Patriots (QB; TE)
Cleveland Browns (QB)
USC (QB)
Jacksonville Jaguars (OC)
Cleveland Browns (QB)
The guy has been a QB's coach or OC in the NFL/USFL for 26 years. He wouldn't be in the league if he didn't know how to coach 
This is a general comment, not one about any specific player or position..........
We have plenty of information to base opinions. If we don't garner it from what we see, we pull it from the media who report the things you are talking about.
By your thoughts, we aren't qualified to judge Daboll, since we don't know what goes on behind closed doors.
I don't agree with your point. If I did, it would mean none of us are qualified to offer an opinion on anything we see, and that's inaccurate.
Quote:
DJ, I'm not going to respond to everything you posted but it is a prime example of what I'm talking about in my post...those who fail to look at facts, that are not so obvious..the other side of the coin.
This was in response to the assertion that this, being Quinn's 3rd year, should mean he's further along in his development.
Stats can be manipulated. I won't use stats. All I need to use is "Rishuz's eyeball test" to be able to understand one thing:
By ANY QB's 3rd year in the league, accuracy, poise, and mechanics should be sound, regardless of how many games they've started.
Did Philip Rivers continue to have poise, accuracy, or mechanical issues despite sitting on the bench for 2 years, or did he come right out of the gate accurate, poised, or mechanically sound?
How about Aaron Rodgers? He sat on the bench for THREE years, yet did he come out of the gate with poise, accuracy, and mechanical issues? His offensive line has been as crappy as our own.
This isn't about numbers, this isn't about stats, and this isn't even about any specific player. The simple FACT is that by ANY player's 3rd year in the league they should have the basic mechanics of their position down. The ONLY excuse available would be coaching, and I maintain there isn't a coach in the NFL who doesn't understand the position they are coaching.
Look, most college coaches know enough to teach everything a player needs to know about their position. These kids simply need it refined and honed once they get to the NFL. Once in the BIG SHOW, every one of these coaches can teach their position players the fundamentals to tighten up mechanics of their respective positions.
Maurice Carthon was a pathetic OC, but he can teach anybody the details of offense and his position.
Carl Smith has been fired as OC, but he knows as much about QB play and mechanics as anyone in the league. He wouldn't be in the league after 20+ years if he was an idiot
Yeah, I guess I'm throwing the BS flag on the entire concept that we as fans don't know enough to form judgments. In that light, the GM's and owners of the league wouldn't know enough to make informed decisions either, yet they do.
As you said Mac, you're not a Quinn guy, so you're clearly not speaking of Quinn specifically. You're speaking conceptually. Well, conceptually, you're wrong, because we have plenty of information to base opinions on these players.
We didn't need to call all the WR coaches idiots to know that Edwards runs weak routes and can't catch. Those issues aren't the coaches fault.
We didn't need to question the RB coaches when Willy Green was here to know he simply sucked as an NFL RB because he lacked vision, hands, and smarts.
We don't have to question the Raiders QB coach because we can all see JaMarcus Russell is a fat slob of a human being who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from inside of it.
We don't need to know what's said behind closed doors to realize Jamal Lewis had no tread left on his tires.
We have plenty of information to base opinions on, and before you throw out "agenda," this post of yours has its own "agenda," if you will. Using that word won't discount anyone's opinion, because only about 1% of the fans on this board would stoop so low as to continue to call something one thing when it clearly isn't.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Mac, you make some good points. Points I agree with.
For me, concerning the "quinn is a 3rd year pro" thing........I only ever bring that up simply because people used that against DA last year, and even to an extent this year.
For me, on that topic and that topic alone, it's pretty easy to say "well, since people think DA has all the experience in the world and should be better because it was his 3rd year, the same should hold true for Quinn". No more, no less.
Quinn did NOT have a good game against pitt. What was the cause? Weather? Preparation? Fear? Lack of ability? Other?
Who cares. He didn't win the game for us, but he didn't lose the game for us. I'm not knocking Quinn either. The Browns won when he didn't have a good game. We've lost when he did have a good game.
We won.
Now, at some point we need to start seeing better consistency from him, no doubt. But we also need that out of every player on the team - well, maybe Cribbs gets a pass on that - but all the other players have good games and bad games as well.
I'm excited to see quinn in the next 3 games. We (the team) will have a better feel on him going into next year, i.e. do we need another qb, or can Quinn do it.
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1st String
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Quote:
Mac, it's not agenda...it's what I see....
Django it is clear from your post on Quinn you do have an agenda. And if it is what you see then tell us an alternative QB on this team right now that would be better.
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...problem is: BQ does NOTHING....
Lets look at that statement, he has went 4 games without an interception. When was the last time that has happened with the Browns? Nothing is a word that you must admit (unless you have an agenda) is a stretch of the truth!
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and although he is supposed to have brains....it's my opinion that he is a scared puss out there....
Does the fact that he is not throwing Ints with a team that does not have enough fire power to over come them show some intelligence? And to call an NFL football player a puss by a know it all person on a computer key board in his safety zone at home not make you the puss! Do it to his face son! 
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5.5yds/pass attempt just won't cut it in this league
Of coarse you are not going to acknowledge the surrounding talent has anything to do with that stat. Dude give up the stat thing and stick with the in my eyes. You have a better argument with your eyes because that can be corrected with lenses. 
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looking worse than last year doesn't help too.....league adjusted and he can't answer back
Are you talking about the whole team? 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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1st String
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Just watched the replay of the game and here are my thoughts on Brady Quinn's play in this game. Remember this is JMO.
First of all the game has not slowed down for Quinn at this point. Some of you want to say after 3 years in the league he should be there. Not everyone is the same and it is obvious that the pace of the game has not come to him as of yet.
Now to the game, he was not as bad as may want to make it seem and he was not as good as he needs to be.
1st series :
nice screen pass for decent yardage
high pass with 3 defenders around receivers (put where no one could catch but our player)
3rd and 14 nice pass short of first down.Looking for YAC.
2nd series:
3rd and 10 Pass to Moore who had to catch it behind him in between 2 defenders. Pretty much the only place his player had a shot and to avoid the defense.
Bad pass to Mass thrown 33 yards into the wind
Big rush and a dump off at the feet of the receiver
3rd series:
pass to Mass in tight coverage incomplete. Woodly looked to be a little early on hit
Pass to Royal high but hit his hands and should have been caught ( the type of pass that Winslow has made for years.
4th series:
short screen short gain
short pass under pressure incomplete
5th series:
3rd and 13 nice catch by Mass on a quick throw.
High pass to Vickers but hit his hands.
Extreme pressure thrown out of end zone to avoid sack.
6th series:
Throw to Mass, him and Quinn not on same page.
Half time 5/14 for 81 yards.
1st series:
bad pass by Quinn against wind.
2nd series:
Bad pass to Moore thrown to a place where only he had a chance at it.
3rd series:
pass to Stuckey again not on same page.
Nice quick pass to cribbs short of 1st
4th series:
thrown high to Moore but put in an area where only Moore had a shot at it.
In second half he only made 5 attempts.
I'm not even going to say it was a good game for Quinn but I will say he has shown that he will error on the side of being safe with the ball and not make a stupid error to lose the game.
I can deal with that after only playing less than one season under center. I think another year and he will be a very serviceable QB in this league.
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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Here toad...try this...from the Browns website...a simple copy and paste and the dates and jobs line up, now...easier to analize some of Smith's jobs...especially from 96 on...might bring up some questions about Smiths ability...nice try...
1971 Cal Poly State University, graduate assistant
1972 University of Colorado, graduate assistant
1973 University of Colorado, linebackers coach
1974 University of Louisiana-Lafayette, defensive line coach
1975-76 University of Louisiana-Lafayette, defensive backs coach
1977-78 University of Louisiana-Lafayette, offensive coordinator/running backs coach
1979-80 Lamar University, offensive coordinator/quarterbacks coach
1981 Lamar University, offensive coordinator/offensive line coach
1982 North Carolina State University, offensive coordinator/quarterbacks coach
1983 Philadelphia Stars (USFL), special teams coach/tight ends coach
1984-85 Philadelphia/Baltimore Stars (USFL), quarterbacks/wide receivers coach
1986-96 New Orleans Saints, offensive coordinator/quarterbacks coach
1997 New England Patriots, assistant head coach/quarterbacks coach
1998-99 New England Patriots, tight ends coach
2001-03 Cleveland Browns, quarterbacks coach
2004 University of Southern California, quarterbacks coach
2005-06 Jacksonville Jaguars, offensive coordinator
...I'm not saying Smith is junk as a QB coach, but after his 10 yr stint with the Saints, he didn't last longer than one or two years at any job...except, with the Browns...not junk but he is far from top shelf...mac
Last edited by mac; 12/13/09 09:53 AM.
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Quote:
Quinn did NOT have a good game against pitt. What was the cause? Weather? Preparation? Fear? Lack of ability? Other?
Who cares.
arch...in short, I care...
I sit back and read this board more than I post and I have seen a trend that just stinks of agenda. Our QBs have a good game, the DT gurus fade away, but let our QBs have a bad game and the agenda driven hyenas are out like the pack that has not eaten in a month.
As I said, the (most vocal) gurus on this board have no clue what is happening on the other side of that coin...all the stuff that goes into a QBs preparation for a game, the quality of the offensive staff Mangini put together to help support our QBs, this staff's ability to develop a young QBs talents, just to mention a few areas most of us have no access to and little knowledge of.
When the gurus pretend they have special powers to see all and know all, by watching TV and using media stories, I have to laugh.
To draft another QB in the first round would be a huge investment for the Browns, again. This team has so many areas that need help it's hard to decide which one we take care of first.
I do know this, the Browns have used first round draft picks to take two QBs and have yet to develop one into a steady performer. I can say in honesty, the Browns have been better are ruining the QBs they draft than they are at developing them.
It might be cheaper for the Browns to build the best offensive coaching staff Lerner's millions can buy than it is to spend our #1 on another QB and turn him over to an unqualified coaching staff to develop.
...jmho...mac
Last edited by mac; 12/13/09 09:40 AM.
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I don't want BQ benched this season....I don't really care who plays QB the rest of this farce of a season....I'm ok with BQ though as long as he won't hit his escalators, because he's not worth it
I just don't want him to start in 2010 because I think it would be a huge waste....I've seen enough "problems" that won't get ALL corrected by starting another 15-20 games. Toad is rhetorically more gifted than me and said it best...his mechanics won't get better just by playing, it should be down already
Love the "scared puss" - keyboard John Wayne argument....I'm not comparing him to me....why should I? we're doing different jobs that require different skills....BQ is a NFL QB and he gets compared to other NFL QBs....compared to them he IS the biggest puss I see on sundays playing QB in this league and I don't want this kind of QB playing for my Browns.....Quinn might be a great guy and heroic and all off the field but that's not up to debate here, it's about his play....his JOB performance
and now to your biggest PRO-BQ argument: he doesn't throw INTs
well, it's all about probability....since he throws a ball over 10yds 1 out of 20 passes or so, the probability of an INT decreases....I personally think he got lucky too but every QB does get away with almost INTs, he DID fumble the ball in the redzone against SD....guy is simply NOT a playmaker, so by default he won't let defenders make plays on him....he really makes no difference and again we will only win 1 out of 10 games with ST and defense (and some Cribbs)....we need more production than "nothing good-nothing bad"-Quinn at QB
Normally I'm not big on stats...but avg/pass attempt is the biggest bottom line indicator for a QB's play and look at all decent QBs...everyone got better in that department with more years of experience....BQ is still at 5.4-5.6yds...that's simply horrible
Funny thing is: every year the coaches "in the background" like QB coach and OC have preferred DA over BQ..why is that? why is Cribbs at QB on 3rd and long? why dump off or hand of on 3rd and long? Those same coaches CLEARLY don't trust BQ to make a positive play in those situations..what does that tell yall? Don't they know him better than we do? Strange isn't it?
The rest of your post is just typical homer "believe", "hope", "baseless projection" jibberish....yeah, maybe the tooth fairy will visit BQ and make him able to make all NFL throws and not hopp around on throws over night...good luck with that
#gmstrong
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One time...just one time...I'd like to see you post about our receiving core, lack of a running game, and swinging gates at RG & RT when slamming BQ.
Just one time.
I was not a fan of the BQ pick and I cannot stand Notre Dame sports...however.
The absolute bottom line is that no one knows at this time what kind of QB BQ may become...not the haters...not the humpers.
The summarized evaluation that follows as seen with my own eyes and considered from posters on this board: (Primer goes like this...valid stated opinion = another valid stated opinion)
Can't/won't throw downfield = no time to wait for a route to develop due to horrid OL play at times/inexperienced WR running wrong routes and not adjusting to the defense/no threat to the D that we might effectively run the ball
Mr. Checkdown and dink and dunker = defensive player in his face after 1.0 seconds from the snap and WRs that don't break off routes when noticing - or missing - the blitz reads/no threat to the D that we might effectively run the ball
Sometimes inaccurate = sometimes very, very accurate. I think all would agree that he needs to get more consistently more accurate.
Is afraid to make plays down the field = understands what NOT to do as well as what TO DO
Has bad mechanics = does not consistently have the time to step into a pocket and/or throw
I honestly have no idea or opinion that BQ can be a good or better-than-good QB in this league.
I see that his supporting cast has been very inconsistent and that his two best offensive weapons of late - not counting Cribbs as wildcat - were on the practice squad at the beginning of the season or did not get much chance to play until two weeks ago.
I think BQ has improved and has done a GREAT job of NOT turning over the ball. We've seen the ball thrown down the field a little more frequently now that he appears to have a TE with digits.
He's had two good games out of the last four and two games where he did not take us out of the game. Not good enough by any standards other than the standard that the Browns are in right now.
On THIS team with THIS new regime and with the awful OC playcalling and change in system and damn near total lack of playmakers...not to mention the above x = y discussion...any discussion about BQ being a great-good-bad-awful QB requires a much more in depth analysis beyond what many post about him.
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One time...just one time...I'd like to see you post about our receiving core, lack of a running game, and swinging gates at RG & RT when slamming BQ.
I've bashed those units to death elsewhere....there is enough about BQ that is just wrong despite the shprtcomings of those other units....why does he jump on his throws when there's no pressure? why does he overthrow Furrey by 3yds on a wide open WR-screen (MNG against BAL)? Why can't he step INTO the pockµt ONCE instead of running out of it backwards? Why does he dump off on 3rd and long or throw constantly underneath the 1st down marker in those occasions?
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One time...just one time...I'd like to see you post about our receiving core, lack of a running game, and swinging gates at RG & RT when slamming BQ.
All great points...but also were issues when the calls for Brady to play started and Anderson lost his job. The question really is are we stupid twice, or do we admit Anderson shouldn't have lost his job either. Or does it even matter either way.
My own opinion, the players get a short leash from some fans...which is bad for the team overall.
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The question really is are we stupid twice, or do we admit Anderson shouldn't have lost his job either.
Anderson should have lost his job. Period.
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The question really is are we stupid twice, or do we admit Anderson shouldn't have lost his job either.
Anderson should have lost his job. Period.
So it isn't okay for Anderson to be ineffective because of the same things we make allowances to Brady for?
Or do you have other reasons?
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Well, to start with, BQ got benched for fewer mistakes than DA was allowed to accomplish -- and, really, fair is fair.
Also, I really wanted to finally see what potential (if any) BQ had so we knew where to go in the draft next year. He HAD to play so we can stop the QB flip flop we are becoming so famous for. Three games left and we'll have a much better idea of whether he's worth hanging with.
As far as DA and his play goes...I'm not a fan. Never have been. He just runs too hot and cold for my liking. I want consistency in my QB. Even being bad week after week, at least you are doing the same things, making the same mistakes, which in my mind is correctable. It's mechanics or mentality at that point. But the up and down, good and bad, is just bad any way you look at it.
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Bottom line, BQ doesn't turn the ball over like DA does. And this is coming from a guy who has defended Anderson a lot. DA can look good on a good team, but really horrible on a bad one.
And BQ's "skittishness" might be because he's not yet compltely comfortable in the pocket.. but he's getting better. It's hard to be confident in your O-line when the right side is Swiss cheese.
I want to address something Toad said when referencing Rodgers and Rivers: both those QBs came into much better situations than BQ (pathetic run game, rookie WRs and vets who aren't that good.... bad right side on the O-line). That doesn't mean his accuracy issues can be washed away, but it is a factor.
It could be argued that two years on the bench, getting rusty, hurt BQ's development more than it helped. Yeah it wasn't that way for Rodgers & Rivers, but every guy is different.
BQ deserves more time to see what we have.
Last edited by lampdogg; 12/13/09 12:17 PM.
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As far as DA and his play goes...I'm not a fan. Never have been. He just runs too hot and cold for my liking. I want consistency in my QB. Even being bad week after week, at least you are doing the same things, making the same mistakes, which in my mind is correctable. It's mechanics or mentality at that point. But the up and down, good and bad, is just bad any way you look at it.
Thanks for the ....simply hilarious
at least with BQ we know he can't connect on a deep out like DA can....he sucks, so we don't even try....great point
I'm no DA pimp by any means...but this just had me ROFL.....so, BQ has NOT been up and down? or was he always down? so, you do see "potential" in BQ's play? if so..WHAT??
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I am not talking about when Brady was playing but before Brady played. Anderson was our starting QB and lost that position due to the same factors that people point to now. Brady then got the start, then the sit...and the start again. I do not feel comfortable with either one right now, but the past actions should not be forgotten. Those that refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it and all...
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You can all you like because I think you missed my point. I believe BQs deep ball issue can be corrected because he's pretty consistent at missing those throws. At least he doesn't throw at feet, not to mention two miles behind the receiver, like DA liked to do. Maybe I'm wrong that he can correct some things, but I do see potential for improvement in Quinn, and only time and experience will tell. I didn't get that same feeling with Anderson.
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Maybe I'm wrong that he can correct some things, but I do see potential for improvement in Quinn, and only time and experience will tell. I didn't get that same feeling with Anderson.
What I find is that anyone would bother to argue about it with Django.. the man has an unnatural hatred for Quinn... I swear to you, it will do you no good to discuss it with Jango... and that, I find
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Anderson was our starting QB and lost that position due to the same factors that people point to now.
I feel that DA needs a very good to excellent supporting cast around him to prosper in any way, shape or form. IMO, I've seen enough of him to know what he has or doesn't have and I don't think he lost his job (again) due to the rest of the team. He lost it all on his own.
Quinn doesn't look stellar by any means, and he may never be, but he's playing more consistent ball than Anderson was. Is he not?
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You can all you like because I think you missed my point. I believe BQs deep ball issue can be corrected because he's pretty consistent at missing those throws. At least he doesn't throw at feet, not to mention two miles behind the receiver, like DA liked to do.
Maybe I'm wrong that he can correct some things, but I do see potential for improvement in Quinn, and only time and experience will tell. I didn't get that same feeling with Anderson.
Before we correct Brady's deep ball concerns they will need to teach him how to pass like a football player...Thursday several times he looked like Dr J shooting Sky Hooks. His biggest drawback is he isn't fundamentally sound. Which is odd coming from someone that played college football.
And that doesn't need any wild exaggeration to be seen...
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What I find is that anyone would bother to argue about it with Django.. the man has an unnatural hatred for Quinn...
Yeah, I know you're right. I'm just in that mood this morning and figure "what the hell". 
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So, are you saying you think he's a lost cause and nothing can be worked out over the off season? Do you think he looks better this time around than last? Do you believe there's a learning curve to playing NFL ball?
And, fwiw, I agree about his high tosses...those make me nervous, too. I'm not sure Thursday's wind really gives us the best objectivity, but I've seen those throws without wind as well.
I still believe he has better fundamentals than DA, even if they need some work. I also believe most of what's happening with him is in his head at this point. Each week it seems he calms down some, which is at least progression.
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I'm saying that the same excuses why he doesn't do a good job are the same reasons he got the job. This offense is geared more toward him when compared to Anderson, short passes, ball control with no deep threat receiver. And even that statement is only made based on the calls they have run, not on potential.
The problem is the fan base...Brady got the job because he was on the bench, which since our return to the NFL is the best place to be as a Browns QB. You can't make mistakes, you don't have to play and most of the fans will act like you walk on water. It just crashes to the ground when you have to take the field.
Brady was pimped as better than Anderson while Anderson was playing...now that Brady is playing he "will be better after he has as many games as Anderson had"...maybe. Now is a great time to learn, I agree 100%...but let's not turn a blind eye and change the benchmarks to make him look better than what we had. It won't bring us wins next year or in the future.
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The problem is the fan base...Brady got the job because he was on the bench, which since our return to the NFL is the best place to be as a Browns QB. You can't make mistakes, you don't have to play and most of the fans will act like you walk on water. It just crashes to the ground when you have to take the field.
Yes, I agree. *Most* of our fans are QB dumb. I read it here daily.
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Now is a great time to learn, I agree 100%...but let's not turn a blind eye and change the benchmarks to make him look better than what we had. It won't bring us wins next year or in the future.
If by "what we had" you mean Anderson, I think Quinn is better. It may not be by much, but he is more consistent any way you look at it, without changing any benchmarks. And, if anyone turns a blind eye, then they really must be QB dumb.
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Its all about the comfort zone with QBs...that is why they are shaky when they start playing in the NFL pretty much proven over n over from Manning to Brees...then as they gain experience they get more comfortable in what they are seeing, feeling - they can hit that back foot and make the throws relaxed and loose.
As fro DA vs. BQ...done and over as we all know or should know - he has flaws and did not improve on them...his improvements came in the area of things he already did OK and got better.
BQ the main question is can he improve...can he get comfortable.
Well improving the environment sure can help of course. bolstering that Right side...having an OL actually play together for more than one season. Have a RB who is adept at picking up the blitz...heck in LT's 2nd season with SD he had worked that off season so hard on his blocking to become better and he was a stud RB...These are all little things that can help a young QB improve because of the environment.
Improving...DA I think was beyond improving...he could drop back and step forward regarding footwork but no matter how hard he worked at it when he moved laterally he couldn't maintain rythym in his footwork to be accurate. And in his 3step drop short passes he decelerated his arm speed - I'm sorry any QB who cannot reach 50% on dink n dunk passes simply doesn't belong taking snaps. Done!!!
BQ - right now his timing is off at times. What I mean and will try to explain is that he is starting to see things...read things - when he does so he is literally getting excited ( I think he needs some of DA's herbal treatment from Oregon  )
and is speeding up the process...as in, "I SEE IT" and then instead of remaining relaxed and just letting it happen - he rushes his throws and the timing of his footwork if off (rythem...if only I could spell it, but I do got it  )
But the good news is this is not a major flaw...its not automatic to be rid of...but its something more predicated on experience than just something he can't do. And yes, it might come in the form of "PWANG" its there...or it might come in Two steps forward One step back fashion.
As for the long passes....right now they have been drilling and implanting a seed I believe for the future in BQ - that of NO TURNOVERS!!! Not cemented as the everyday QB for a given amount of time - he is too concious of this rather than having it imbedded in his game. But its theres...that is why he's been missing a lot on some long passes that are not wide open (Lions game Wide Open) because he tries so hard to put it at a spot that ONLY HIS WR can catch or nobody will catch it....All too often it goes out of bounds to the right.
You know when we will start to see BQ sort of get comfortable? I think one of the signs and effects will be when he will trust JoeT's consistent play on edge rushers and realize that he can start breaking to his left...not deep left but step up and go underneath JoeT as the Edge Rusher is being pushed behind the pocket...it is then I'd like to see BQ break out to his left...take the massive yardage and go out of bounds...or simply keep his eyes downfield and stop prior to crossing that LOS and hit the wide open WR. This is when we can start realizing the process is in motion and he is starting to become a Good to Great NFL QB.
Is he a lock? No, but he is at the cusp of getting on his way to redemption. He needs more reps...I do think it was a mistake not to claim him as the QB at the beginning of training camp and have this process further down the road so that a better evaluation can be made prior to the next draft.
I just hope we can see the corner turned these last 3 games.
JMHO - that over anxious thing I was trying to describe happening with BQ as he is starting to "SEE IT". Maybe if some of you have played some kind of Ball...Baseball, Softball, heck even wiffle ball. You know when a fat pitch comes to you and your EYES GET ALL BIG and you get so anxious to kill it and hit a homerun...and instead what occurs is a big WHIFF!!! And you get so upset and wish you had that pitch again. Well thats what is happening to BQ right now...he's starting to "SEE IT" and he is getting all excited and its throwing his timing off. And he's whiffing. The more reps he get...the more he "SEES IT" the more COMFORTABLE he will be in that position and like that fat pitch he will wait on it and then strike....Same thing with his throws...I think he's pretty close and sometimes it is as simple as that
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I agree. I think he's starting to "see it", too.
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j/c...
I love that our offensive skill positions are so bad that one couldn't possibly blame the offensive shortcomings on our quarterback, because no quarterback could look good with these guys around him, but at the same time we have to play BQ so that we if he's "the guy" going forward. If he manages to look good, then he's gotta be the starter next year, and if he looks bad, then we should make him the starter next year when we have better players, because you can't get a true evaluation of what he can do this year since the rest of the offense sucks.
Too funny.
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LOL ... that was pretty good.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I think the QB situation can best be summed up by the following:
*We can evaluate these guys based on things that have absolutely nothing to do with the supporting cast. Anyone who cannot do this should remove themselves from the debate.
*DA is/was beyond pitiful. He's not the answer for anything.
*Quinn does need more time, but the odds of him amounting to anything are rather small.
I think that's it in a nutshell, if everyone is being honest about it.
My biggest concern is getting a false sense of BQ against some poor teams these last few weeks.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Bottom line, BQ doesn't turn the ball over like DA does. And this is coming from a guy who has defended Anderson a lot. DA can look good on a good team, but really horrible on a bad one.
And BQ's "skittishness" might be because he's not yet compltely comfortable in the pocket.. but he's getting better. It's hard to be confident in your O-line when the right side is Swiss cheese.
I want to address something Toad said when referencing Rodgers and Rivers: both those QBs came into much better situations than BQ (pathetic run game, rookie WRs and vets who aren't that good.... bad right side on the O-line). That doesn't mean his accuracy issues can be washed away, but it is a factor.
It could be argued that two years on the bench, getting rusty, hurt BQ's development more than it helped. Yeah it wasn't that way for Rodgers & Rivers, but every guy is different.
BQ deserves more time to see what we have.
Yes, lampy! I agree!
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BQ has absolutely no one but himself to blame for his "two years getting rusty" on the bench. He could've been the starter on that 2007 team but he had to hold out for what ended up being about a half-million bucks.
*cue up the "RAC never played rookies" argument*
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Generally speaking, I can't buy into the "two years of rust" theory. It's been shown repeatedly throughout the history of the league that QB's learn quite a bit by sitting on the sidelines and absorbing information. Just because they aren't in Sunday games doesn't mean they are wasting away. They get plenty of work in the off-season and during the season with limited reps.
Sorry, Lampy, but there are just too many examples of recent QB's who've sat where it did nothing but help their development.
That's not about Quinn, just generally speaking.
There are reasons to blame Quinn and reasons to excuse him, but I don't believe in the "rust" theory *L*
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Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I sit back and read this board more than I post and I have seen a trend that just stinks of agenda. Our QBs have a good game, the DT gurus fade away, but let our QBs have a bad game and the agenda driven hyenas are out like the pack that has not eaten in a month.
What most people want to see, including myself, is some stability, some consistency from the QB position. The problem is that we haven't had stability or consistency anywhere within this organization. We have been back for 11 years now. We've had 6 different guys lead the team in receiving, 7 different guys lead the team in rushing, at least a dozen QBs start games, 5 different head coaches, 8 different offensive coordinators... and on and on and on.
Yet the DT gurus (good name by the way) constantly place the bulk of the blame on the QB..... and the agenda part you speak of is most apparent when we lose and they blame the QB but we win and they say we did so in spite of the QB...
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