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Stunning silence from the agenda crowd...simple question...why no answers?...to this?
the answer?!? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE ANSWER!!!!
(sorry couldn't help it)
#gmstrong
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what your trying to describe is like having an open jump shot that you have hit in practice hundreds of times, only to chock in a real game and blow that same shot. It all comes down to relaxing and allowing your body to complete the physical movement to complete what your eyes see and your brain relays to your body (muscles).
As someone said, Quinn needs REPS, REPS, REPS... so he can find that comfort zone that will allow him to throw accurate passes.
It's also been said that Quinn is a very smart QB, mac... and it might also be a case of him over-thinking during game time.
In my job, I get to train lots of talented youn'uns. Much of what I do is straight from the athletic training handbook... foundation, reps, refining technique. It's highly specialized, and very demanding, both physically and mentally. Football coaches train athletes' big muscle gropus; I train small muscle groups. The on-the-surface differences don't matter- the principle is exactly the same: mind/body sych-up. Too much mind, and the body can't perform. Too little mind, and the body performs poorly. End results: strikingly similar.
I have more trouble with the smart ones, invariably. They're still thinking the process through right up until and into 'game day,' and sometimes, the results are painful to watch. I tell them all, "at some point, you MUST rely on all the practice you've done, and let your body do what you've worked so hard to train it to do. TRUST YOUR TRAINING." That's very hard for the cerebral types. I've had exceptionally talented kids over-think and second-guess themselves right out of a great performance... when all they had to do was get out there and put it on auto-pilot. For the dullards, this isn't a problem; they're sleepwalking on auto-pilot all the time, anyway. 
For the bright ones; they have to work through the process to get there. In the end, it's worth all the waiting and patience tho- 'cause once they 'get it,' they blow away the competition.
(One of my favorite "head cases" put it all together just before he left me. Went to Columbia Univ, and straight-up won the soloist's competition as a Freshman. Beat down at least 75 others, mostly upper-classmen. Got to solo in Carnegie Hall, and got a favorable write-up in the NYTimes. When I asked him how he did it, he said... "I just remembered to trust what I did in the practice room, and said to myself, ' **** it... just go out and have fun.")
There's also another phenomenon that goes on with all the smart ones: When we're doing 'spadework'... really getting into the nuts & bolts, I'll make a suggestion on how to correct a technical flaw. The average players will sort of try, in a half-assed sort of way. But the really smart ones... almost every time, they'll give me this exaggerated attempt at the cure, which yeilds just as ugly results- in the other direction. Cracks me up every time. Then, I work on helping them split the diff, and find that middle ground where the truth lies.
I'm thinking that what we've seen in BQ might be a little of both of these, along with other observations you've made. Just a guess on my part, but it seems plausible.
I'm in the camp that thinks BQ's just starting to acclimate to the pro game. He may have been in the league for 3 years, but really- how many games has he played? Slightly more than a season, all told? Maybe there are QB gurus here on the boards who can size up a QB (on a team like ours) in that much time, but I ain't one of them. I'd dig a chance to see him for another year, just to track the progress.
My prediction: about 1/3-2/3 the way into next season he'll either click, or top out, ability-wise. Only then will we know (or at least have a good idea) for sure. Right now, it's still too early to tell
.02,
Clemdawg
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what your trying to describe is like having an open jump shot that you have hit in practice hundreds of times, only to chock in a real game and blow that same shot. It all comes down to relaxing and allowing your body to complete the physical movement to complete what your eyes see and your brain relays to your body (muscles).
As someone said, Quinn needs REPS, REPS, REPS... so he can find that comfort zone that will allow him to throw accurate passes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's also been said that Quinn is a very smart QB, mac... and it might also be a case of him over-thinking during game time.
In my job, I get to train lots of talented youn'uns. Much of what I do is straight from the athletic training handbook... foundation, reps, refining technique. It's highly specialized, and very demanding, both physically and mentally. Football coaches train athletes' big muscle gropus; I train small muscle groups. The on-the-surface differences don't matter- the principle is exactly the same: mind/body sych-up. Too much mind, and the body can't perform. Too little mind, and the body performs poorly. End results: strikingly similar.
clem...great response...that's what I said...lol.. 
It's great to hear someone get technical about the connection between the mind/body issue some have touched on in this thread...it does exist and none of us fans know where Quinn stands concerning mind/body.
I'm not sure the Browns QBs had a day since training camp started to just relax and allow their body to do what it has been trained to do...another QB competition between the two from the 1st day of training camp..that Quinn won and lost within 2.5 games...getting the job back...but being drilled, don't make a mistake.
Honestly, I wonder if Anderson's performance issues are not (in part) a result of enduring and attempting to overcome the same pressures?...QB comp...losing the QB comp...taking over after 2.5 games...then playing poorly in most of his starts.
I don't believe either QB has been able to just say this..."I just remembered to trust what I did in the practice room, and said to myself, ' **** it... just go out and have fun."
Not much fun here in Cleveland... 
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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No
Probably Not.
But...
Many more of his passes would come closer to the targets.
He would hang in the pocket, step up, and throw an NFL caliber pass downfield. Which would change the way a few of us feel about things getting better in the future.
That's a good start.
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It wasn't just superior competition...he often struggled against even mediocre teams...and always feasted on the weak.
Not an ND expert but I could swear I remember Diam so aptly dispelling that theory as he showed Big game after big game BQ having actually good games and the team faltered usually getting manhandled on the D side of the ball. So I got to call you on that proclamation.
Olschool711... so what's your agenda  oh excuse me "WORD MAN" HIDDEN AGENDA  ... btw (word man is Toad... lol  ) btw, yes I am evil and don't have a clue about football.
Mac...thanks for the props.
DjangoBrown...thanks for the INSULTS  Btw I didn't see you class yourself in that HIDDEN AGENDA GROUP... ya blew that one...
Diam...should not be included...then why did you???
You say it like it makes it better...yet all you had to do was scroll up and take his name off. hmmmm...speak w/ fork tongue - make any treaties lately...lol
Btw...oldschool, I really just covet good ole football discussion. Without the drama.
Hopefully you will be adding that to the board
My agenda is pretty open...for that definition so is Django I guess.
How did Toad get lumped in with ddubbia...??? lol hey ddubbia and Clemdawg are the two I got in that classification.
Toad...is just very entertaining but has no well disguised agenda's.
But does have a good demeanor and doesn't take much personal 
Shep...always to me has been the FACT man...like whats his name from PTI at the end would correct all the mistakes the two hosts would make.
And me I must be the most mean S.O.B on this board as in the Grinch who stole the Browns board...gosh forbid if you should know your football... 
enjoy the board. Remember this is Pure Football
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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And me I must be the most mean S.O.B on this board as in the Grinch who stole the Browns board..
You're too positive and optimistic to be the grinch
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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And me I must be the most mean S.O.B on this board as in the Grinch who stole the Browns board..
You're too positive and optimistic to be the grinch
he's the Grinch at the END of the story.
#gmstrong
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What is the difference between reading your post and arguing with a woman in a bar?
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That was great. Thanks for the laugh.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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no clue if that was an old joke...you tell me? No clue why you would insult me??? But tell me the answer...and if you know Richuz maybe you could tell me.
but if we have a history let me know...oh btw...also let me know when you decide to make a football post
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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To paraphrase Mike Tyson, "Everybody's got an agenda until they get punched in the mouth."  The trouble on here is that no one can say anything without being accused of having some sort of an agenda, be it smelly, overt, hidden or otherwise. As someone said, labeling someone as having an agenda is, for the most part, a tactic. Be it quarterbacks or coaches, cabbages or kings, one can't say a good word about one without having an agenda of hate for the other. And if one tries to tread lightly to discourage being called agenda driven then it's labeled a hidden agenda, i.e., "You don't come right out and say it but it's there nonetheless." The problem arises because twenty-seven people see one single thing twenty-seven different ways. But in the end it all gets boiled down to two views; this or that. There's nothing wrong with twenty-seven different views. That's a good way to learn something. Listen to all the different views while taking or leaving what sounds right or wrong. That sort of thing can result in developing an informed opinion. But the very idea of that is shot down, dismantled and sold for parts by those using the tactic of labeling someone's view as an agenda which forces one to defend their view against another. An opinion shouldn't have to be so vigorously defended, and it wouldn't be, but for being called out as deriving from an agenda. Every opinion is not backed by an agenda but you wouldn't know it from reading this board. If I say I think Quinn could be a good QB if he gets more playing time, then I'm labeled a, "Queer for Quinn", by those who don't agree with me. At that point I can't even talk about our QB without being dismissed as someone with an "agenda". Sure, there are some who would agree with me but it would be at the risk of wearing the same label. It all deteriorates to the degree that it's hard to have discussions. But I don't expect it to stop any time soon. Nor am I to be the voice of reason and convince the whole lot to abate this behavior. It's been going on since I joined DawgTalk and it will continue long after I'm gone. It's human nature. It's know-it-alls and drunks, and it's idiots and A-holes all collected in a room talking football. I should know. I am all those things. But not to dispair, because the other side of the arguement carry their own agenda contrary to mine. So in that way the playing field is equaled. Everyone's full of crap and nobody knows what they're talking about. We're all just talking. In the end, as odd it seems to work out, every single one, to a man, believes in and has as the core of his being a tremendous love for the Cleveland Browns, We all share the same goals and aspirations even though we may disagree on how to best make them a reality. We are brothers in arms and I love you all, (except the dickheads who have agendas which are contrary to mine).
#gmstrong
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What is the difference between reading your post and arguing with a woman in a bar?
Is it that you can win an argument with a woman in a bar?
#gmstrong
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I think Quinn could be a good QB if he gets more playing time
I quit reading right there.
You keep your political agenda to yourself. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Q: Quote:
What is the difference between reading your post and arguing with a woman in a bar?
A: Not much...
...You'd probably lose at both- for completely different reasons.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Just Clicking... Was it a bad day in Cleveland or something? I feel like I just walked into a food fight in a high school cafeteria
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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I think Quinn could be a good QB if he gets more playing time
I quit reading right there.
You keep your political agenda to yourself.
When he is the successful QB of the Browns do you pinky swear to support him?
Just wondering.
There are a vocal minority of us that can see it in this guy. And that's with our eyes on the field. He has some issues but for the most part this is a guy that can win regularly in the NFL in the right system.
I can break down all the things he does wrong right now. Can you break down all the things he does right?
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Legend
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Quote:
Q:
Quote:
What is the difference between reading your post and arguing with a woman in a bar?
A: Not much...
...You'd probably lose at both- for completely different reasons.
With a woman in a bar if you upset her she goes into the "I'm not talking to you anymore" mode. We aren't lucky enough to get that here. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think Quinn could be a good QB if he gets more playing time
I quit reading right there.
You keep your political agenda to yourself.
When he is the successful QB of the Browns do you pinky swear to support him?
Just wondering.
There are a vocal minority of us that can see it in this guy. And that's with our eyes on the field. He has some issues but for the most part this is a guy that can win regularly in the NFL in the right system.
I can break down all the things he does wrong right now. Can you break down all the things he does right?
So my joke with 'Dub went right past you? That's too bad.
But since you're asking a serious question, I'll answer, even though I've answered it repeatedly in the past.
I've always said my one big and critical knock is his accuracy when making NFL throws.
I can attribute some of his issues to lack of experience, including pocket presence and all the things that entails.
I have always .....................look, I'm going to sum it up with a quote I made weeks ago:
He looks like an NFL QB in front of the camera, on the sidelines, in the huddle, before the snap, and right after the snap. He stops looking like one when it's time to make NFL throws.
I think the very best Quinn can be is a short-tossin' game-manager. I don't like his game out in the elements. He'd stand a much-greater chance of success in a warm-weather climate because he doesn't throw a good weather ball. His lack of accuracy on NFL throws has always been my big concern. I spoke about it often as far back as his Junior year. Then again his Senior year. I've read about it in media reports. I've seen it with my own eyes in pre-season. And now, in his 3rd year in the NFL, I continue to see it.
Hel, this will be very telling: I think Quinn has a much quicker mind than Campbell. I don't believe that in year 5 Quinn would make as many bad decisions as Campbell. But I am willing to trade out the two because Campbell, while only average in the smarts department, is pinpoint accurate and CAN make NFL throws, even in bad weather. He has a big arm and throws very tight spirals.
Until he can consistently make NFL throws, I don't believe in Brady Quinn. I don't have to like the guy to root for him in a Browns uniform, and make no mistake about it, everything I've been told, read, and seen tells me he's an ass. All I care about is if can be a good QB. I'm not content with the thought that in a division full of QB's who can make bad-weather throws, we'd settle for a moderate-armed guy who doesn't throw as good as most QB's in bad weather. If we were a dome team it'd mean much less, but that isn't reality.
So................I've already acknowledged the good and bad as I see it in Quinn, both here and in past months. My big concern is his accuracy past the dink/dunk stuff (and even that has come into question this season). I don't believe any amount of increased familiarity will help. I just don't believe he can consistently hit the strike zone on NFL throws, and as time goes by, defenses will do the same things to him that they did with Frye: They'll squeeze down the field daring us to beat them deep, and when that time comes, Quinn won't be able to consistently deliver.
You don't have to have a big arm to play in Cleveland. You can have an iffy arm but you must be accurate and you must throw tight spirals. To this point, Quinn struggles with that.
Oh, on a side note, your belief in Quinn isn't in the minority. It just feels that way.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Until he can consistently make NFL throws, I don't believe in Brady Quinn. I don't have to like the guy to root for him in a Browns uniform, and make no mistake about it, everything I've been told, read, and seen tells me he's an ass. All I care about is if can be a good QB. I'm not content with the thought that in a division full of QB's who can make bad-weather throws, we'd settle for a moderate-armed guy who doesn't throw as good as most QB's in bad weather. If we were a dome team it'd mean much less, but that isn't reality.
Nice
If any of you are willing, let me suggest this. Recently espn has been replaying the Miami games on Classic. If you have dvr and can find the Nebraska vs. Miami, Orange Bowl game, record it! Please!
What I think "the haters" we are trying to say is very clear and very evident in this game. Contrast it against a Browns game where Brady is throwing in decent weather. Nebraska was billed as the "greatest team in the history of all mankind" and they were playing Miami, a big underdog, with a Freshman quarterback. This was before Miami was an annual power.
On the first series the Freshman starts out with stepping into the pocket and throwing a downfield laser that dips after it goes over two linebackers and lands right into the outstretched hands of the sprinting receiver. Huge gain. Incredible accuracy and velocity.
His second throw he steps out of the pocket, is off balance, his front leg is dangling off to the side, he practically throws the ball sidearm, he looks like a mess. The ball splits the corner and the safety 25 yards downfield, on the sideline, and hits the receiver's hands on a dime. Freakin incredible throw. Big gain.
His third throw he just rolled out to the right and threw a short TD pass (His rollout looked like a baby ostrich trying to do an L drill).
NFL arm. NFL caliber passes. From a college freshman. Against "the greatest team ever assembled in the history of the game." blah, blah...
He went on to play one of the most historic games in college history that night.
Now, if the Browns could ever draft someone like that I bet he'd be able to throw successfully in Cleveland Browns Stadium.
( maybe we should track him down and see if he could work with Quinn on throwing the ball and especially accuracy )
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I don't think mechanics will fix his accuracy issues.
I don't believe in Quinn because I don't think those issues can be fixed. I think he simply has a scatter-arm.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Man, after a few decades it simply becomes, as Rishuz called it,
the eye test
You watch Tom Brady on his first series after Bledsoe was hurt and see it.
Joe Montana
Peyton
Drew Brees (now)
Gangly guy in the Miami game
Many others
They execute, the ball comes out, and bam! there's a play downfield. They made the right read, their footwork was quick, they can evade the rush, their release is quick, the ball is tight, it has some zip on it, it has some touch applied to it, and you just take for granted when it ends up exactly where it should be.
The eye test.
You just know it when you see it. After 3-4 decades or so it proves out almost all the time.
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Erik Kramer sure passed the eye test when he first started....dude looked like he was legit.
#gmstrong
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They had a running game then named Sanders,....
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some pretty good WRs too (Perriman was a favorite of mine)
but, he still sure passed that eyeball test.....everything he did looked like he was gonna be the next great one. then he couldn't adjust when defenses figured out his tendencies.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Erik Kramer sure passed the eye test when he first started....dude looked like he was legit.
Eh....He was a small guy who was a backup who showed a little bit of promise in the small chances he had to play. If I remember correctly, he had one good year then played like the journeyman he was.
As a side note, I've never liked using comparisons between players to say if a guy can make it or not. There are guys that don't even look like they belong in the league who excelled (Brad Johnson and Kosar) and guys that looked like they would be Hall of Famer's but flamed out (Jeff George). That kinda thing goes into my old argument-breaker where arguing what's "possible" isn't the same as arguing what's "plausible."
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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2 good years, but that's about right.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
What is the difference between reading your post and arguing with a woman in a bar?
Is it that you can win an argument with a woman in a bar?
If so he needs to teach us.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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He, he...
Are there any members of the Supreme Council of the Chosen Know it All Softball Throwers who haven't rallied to their boys defense? If so, please respond to your rallying cry!
What really happened to Versatile Dawg?
OT would you have the cajones to shoot straight and tell us?
Was he banned or was he actually squeezed?
Squeezed out by a collective of softball throwers who he wouldn't assimilate with? Who didn't like hearing his opinion?
Or, possibly did he get tired of participating on a board that was taken over by a "Chosen" collective of pompous lemmings with an agenda -- An agenda of saying nothing?
Or...both?
The Truth, we CAN handle the truth!!!
Although it will probably be deleted, or worse, they will circle their forces around you and threaten you with a reduced grade of dawgtalker or something.
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Quote:
He, he...
Are there any members of the Supreme Council of the Chosen Know it All Softball Throwers who haven't rallied to their boys defense? If so, please respond to your rallying cry!
What really happened to Versatile Dawg?
OT would you have the cajones to shoot straight and tell us?
Was he banned or was he actually squeezed?
Squeezed out by a collective of softball throwers who he wouldn't assimilate with? Who didn't like hearing his opinion?
Or, possibly did he get tired of participating on a board that was taken over by a "Chosen" collective of pompous lemmings with an agenda. An agenda of saying nothing?
Or...both?
The Truth, we CAN handle the truth!!!
Although it will probably be deleted, or worse, they will circle their forces around you and threaten you will a reduced grade of dawgtalker or something.
Hey Olskool, If it get's too cold in here there's plenty of wool laying around to knit yourself a sweater.
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The sheep need to be sheared first.
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458 Likes: 1 |
I have always hate BQ. I was upset, but yielded to Savages judgement when we selected him; and when DA lit it up in 2007 I was pretty sol on the guys ability to make plays with his arm.
Today our team seems headed in the right direction and I will support Whatever Mangini decides to do. He has brought in some really good players on waivers. I firmly believe that some of these guys will get extensions going into next season. I believe that Mangini knows how to find football players. I think that he will build a DEEP, SOLID team over time. His ability to field a competitive product even after key injuries to our defense as the season has wore on; this prove that he knows what to look for in personnel.
He has brought in plenty of draft picks who are smart guys and have come in and contributed to a winning effort even when the year is pretty much over. Guys who will play hard for pride.
These guys will solidify the "soft" areas around our "studs" as time goes on.
Eric Mangini knows what he is doing.
It would be Stupid to fire him.
Stupid.....
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136 |
You didn't just call all those backing BQ wussies did you... 
I still don't know your opinion on this football subject...when will you enlighten us on it?
Vers btw - I think went down like this. Did a no-no (btw probably describing the character of the Brady backers...lol ) and was banned for a month (pretty severe one if not that month) - that banning has come n gone.
I know when I was banned...I too felt hurt and was reluctant to come back to post.
Vers has a lot more Pride (which is a 7 deadly sin) than I do and truly has not come back. He posts mainly at the Browns Chat board - I don't know if he has football discussions anywhere else.
Hey enjoy the board...and don't forget to post something about football 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,775 Likes: 404
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,775 Likes: 404 |
I wish Vers would come back.
He was often an extremist, but his pros outweighed his cons, and he added more to the board than he took away.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136 |
I don't miss him...
No don't even go there...I don't miss him cause I still have football discussions with him and even though we have strong differences on a couple of players...BQ/DA/Pool
we actually get along even with differences. He does go a little too extreme and gets in trouble - I think he knows he wouldn't last here so why bother.
I hope to play a round of golf with him this summer - before my season starts in July...I'm going to TRY to hook up at least. I'm sure Dawg talk will come up and I'll be sure to say he is missed by some. If you miss him that bad you could PM him on the Brown's Chat.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,518 Likes: 147
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,518 Likes: 147 |
Quote:
I wish Vers would come back.
He was often an extremist, but his pros outweighed his cons, and he added more to the board than he took away.
If anyone believes the Browns should keep Mangini instead of hiring Holmgren...your likely going to be agreeing with V man.
...Vers extreme?....naaah
BTW, I did notice the name "Diam", on the who's online list..I would like to see Vers and Diam return...the more the merrier...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,775 Likes: 404
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,775 Likes: 404 |
Quote:
If anyone believes the Browns should keep Mangini instead of hiring Holmgren...your likely going to be agreeing with V man.
I haven't been on Browns Chat in a while to read his take on Mangini, but if I were a betting man, I would bet Vers wants to stay the course. That's consistent with his line of thinking.
Wonder what he would think about a Holmgren - Mangini pairing? That's the direction I'm leaning in.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
bump we now won 3 games although throwing for 179yds overall in those games and under 100yds in each Oh and who does still think BQ is our QB of the future after this game?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
I was disappointed in Quinn today and I'm starting to buy into some of the lack of accuracy proponents arguments. He's just not showing improvement.
#GMSTRONG
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,843 Likes: 11
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,843 Likes: 11 |
I don't know what it is... he just checks down too much.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum BQ continued....
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