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I was disappointed in Quinn today and I'm starting to buy into some of the lack of accuracy proponents arguments. He's just not showing improvement.
Would it be that he could start to prove such an arguement wrong, but there are no excuses for not knowing when to use touch or when to fire rockets.
His second INT of the game was yet another in the long line of examples that cannot be excused away with talk of lack of reps, lack of familiarity, or anything else.........
Nice play-action, he's looking down the field, and fires the bomb! Too bad it was right into double-coverage, which was his first mistake, and even if it was single coverage, not only did Mass have to stop and come back, but so did the defenders. Underthrowing his receiver by a solid 5-10 yards is the second mistake. NFL-throw......lack of NFL-result.
The one "circle the wagons" fallback position last week was that Quinn "didn't do anything to lose the game." Not even that flawed argument can be uttered with a half-straight face. It was a lie then, just as it would be now.
Quinn had all the world ready to believe that the light was coming on. For guys like me, he had a three-game window to force us to reconsider our position. He's fallen flat on his face. The numbers for his last two games are just disgusting:
16 of 38 for 156 yards, 0 TD's 2 INT's. Only 1 sack allowed.
That wasn't the Ravens defense out there today..........The Chiefs are the 3rd worst defense in the league.
We're winning in spite of Quinn, not because of him.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Tomorrow we should get word on the "Big Show," "Walrus" whatever.
I am convinced that he is the best man for the job.
I'm convinced that we are ready for someone from the Walsh tree.
I also want to see the WCO in Cleveland, in the AFC North. "Smash mouth Cleveland football" When I was really young the Browns were the dominant team in football because of extremely advanced innovation, not smash mouth.
Finally, this is a Brady Quinn thread. One thing I hate is the word hater. I don't hate Brady or Lerner. I simply want to the see a Browns team that is beautiful to watch, is the best team in the league, and wins the Super Bowl. And I am willing to be absolutely ruthless to get just that. I believe they have to go. JMHO
Here's my point. If Mike Holmgren is announced as the Dad (if he doesn't like Czar what are we calling him these days?) of the Browns he is going to evaluate Brady. It will take him no more than 3 days, ahemm... 3 hours, to determine whether Brady Quinn is good enough.
Insert pompous, arrogant, know it all agenda statement here:
Mike Holmgren is the single best developer of NFL Quarterbacks there has ever been. PERIOD
Steve Young- reclamation project after miserable years with Tampa Bay and the USFL. Also coached him at BYU. HOF, 2 NFL MVP, MVP Super Bowl, 7 Pro Bowls, ....
Brett Favre-saw something in him, demanded a trade for him when people thought he was nuts. Worked with him and: 3 consecutive MVP's, 2 Super Bowl appearances, Holds most NFL passing records.
Matt Hasselbeck- 3 Pro Bowls for a 6th round draft pick that many thought would never reach elite status. 1 Super Bowl appearance.
Mike Holmgren was Joe Montana's position coach. True he got to the 49's well after Joe, but he was Joe's coach none the less. When Holmgren got there, Joe was the best in the NFL. When Joe left, he may have been the best ever.
We can all rest assured that the question, and decision, about Brady Quinn will be in very, very good hands if Holmgren signs on.
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His second INT of the game was yet another in the long line of examples that cannot be excused away with talk of lack of reps, lack of familiarity, or anything else.........
Nice play-action, he's looking down the field, and fires the bomb! Too bad it was right into double-coverage, which was his first mistake, and even if it was single coverage, not only did Mass have to stop and come back, but so did the defenders.
Toad...I remember that play well...the announcers actually commented on that play and pointed out what they thought Quinn did wrong..
...I guess you didn't catch what the announcers said and showed when they replayed that specific play?
I'm sure you taped the game...go back and watch the tape and listen to the announcers comments after that INT. I felt they gave an honest, accurate assessment of that play and no hints of any agenda.
Here's the deal toad...you have had an "agenda" against Quinn, that dates back to the drafting of Quinn. I remember your "word wars" with Diam, concerning Quinn and how you used everything you could come up with, to trash Quinn.
It sure doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the Browns QB play was not good yesterday and has not been good for most of the season. You don't have to be the smartest fan in the world to point out that an INT is not a good thing. This franchise has won just 7 games in two seasons...and "that" is not the fault of just one player.
Toad...you will have to forgive me for giving you some debate when it comes to Quinn. I want someone who know's QBs, to assess the Browns QB situation and if "that person" feels that Quinn or Anderson can or cannot be salvaged...so be it.
It appears that the Browns are about to hire one of the best QB evaluators in the NFL and if that person cuts all the Browns QBs and starts over...so be it...I will trust his judgement knowing that the only agenda he has, is building a winner in Cleveland.
Now let's see if you can figure out (or remember what the announcers said) what Quinn did wrong on that second INT...jmho...mac
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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It appears that the Browns are about to hire one of the best QB evaluators in the NFL and if that person cuts all the Browns QBs and starts over...so be it...I will trust his judgement knowing that the only agenda he has, is building a winner in Cleveland.
Now let's see if you can figure out (or remember what the announcers said) what Quinn did wrong on that second INT...jmho...mac
So, by your argument: everyone who criticzes Quinn does not want to see a winner built? or has not that goal?...did it ever cross your mind that it's the exact same reason WHY some criticize BQ? 
Oh and on the INT....he threw an a) underthrown + b) slow duck and c) into double coverage....oh and he misread the S-play or he had not enough zip to get there before the S got there....pick your poison....1st INT was worse though
Guy just isn't a NFL QB and whoever can't see that by now has no clue about QB play, sorry but it should not even be up to debate....and it's useless arguing with guys on here who think he sucks because "he's starting to see it"  whatever makes your day guys
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Django.. I'm just curious. If Holmgren comes in here, and I think most agree that Holmgren knows QBs, and he decides to keep Quinn and give him at least another year. What are you going to say? I hate to put words in your mouth but as I see it, if that happens you have 3 choices.. 1. Holmgren is as dumb as some of the fans and knows far less about football than you. 2. Holmgren doesn't like him but thinks we have bigger needs and is just waiting to cut him later. 3. And I really don't expect this one.. but maybe Django wasn't seeing the whole picture. But I'll give you the option to answer the question in your own words now...  Because you know what.. if Holmgren comes in here and gets rid of him, then I'm fully prepared to say that I let my optimism and my hope for him get the best of me... and let's see where we go from here.
yebat' Putin
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I know DC. like many others on here you will just switch bandwaggon...and it's "Go Holmgren" from there...all will be forgotten what you guys said about player X or Y....EO is a master of that....cheerleading them as long as they play here and then bashing them and saying the same what the critical posters said after said player got fired
I know how this goes and nice try to put me in a catch 22...but it won't change the fact that BQ won't ever be a NFL QB, that's where you can quote me....and my bottom line assessment...if he gets another year I will be not very happy, cause I think it's a waste....but like many else I don't want a 1st round QB necessarily....
Holmgren has 3 options:
- cut/bench Quinn and draft a QB
- cut/bench BQ and sign a FA QB or trade for one
- keep Quinn
looking at this: even if he decides to keep Quinn it does not mean he likes him as his other options don't look tasty at all.
I see it like this: if we can't get Campbell or Pennington and maybe 2-3 other vets (that will be cut) it doesn't make much sense to cut/bench BQ, because I don't see any other as being much better....maybe he pulls a Favre out of the FA/trade hat? I'd be all for that if he can't get the names above.....
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
It appears that the Browns are about to hire one of the best QB evaluators in the NFL and if that person cuts all the Browns QBs and starts over...so be it...I will trust his judgement knowing that the only agenda he has, is building a winner in Cleveland.
Now let's see if you can figure out (or remember what the announcers said) what Quinn did wrong on that second INT...jmho...mac
So, by your argument: everyone who criticzes Quinn does not want to see a winner built? or has not that goal?...did it ever cross your mind that it's the exact same reason WHY some criticize BQ?
DJ...nope, nothing wrong with criticizing Quinn, but for some, it has become an obsession that has gone on for "years"...
...valid criticism is fine, but long term, agenda driven criticism is just that.
Oh and on the INT....he threw an a) underthrown + b) slow duck and c) into double coverage....oh and he misread the S-play or he had not enough zip to get there before the S got there....pick your poison....1st INT was worse though
DJ...nope, you missed it too...go back and watch the tape, then listen to the commentators...they are spot on!
Guy just isn't a NFL QB and whoever can't see that by now has no clue about QB play, sorry but it should not even be up to debate....and it's useless arguing with guys on here who think he sucks because "he's starting to see it" whatever makes your day guys
DJ...Quinn may not be an NFL caliber starter...but you and some others will have to forgive me if I wait for someone more qualified to make that decision for the franchise.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Actually there was no catch-22 involved. Quote:
like many others on here you will just switch bandwaggon...and it's "Go Holmgren" from there...all will be forgotten what you guys said about player X or Y....EO is a master of that....cheerleading them as long as they play here and then bashing them and saying the same what the critical posters said after said player got fired
I know you think fans come in 2 varieties, the optimists and the realists... but believe it or not there are a dozen shades of gray in the middle. I suppose I do switch bandwagons, in that I pimp the guys at the time that I think give us the best chance to win now and into the future.. I'm not as high on Quinn now as I was a year ago.. or even 4 months ago.. but I haven't closed the book yet. That's where I stand.
I have had opinions on all of our players over the years and I will gladly tell you what they were if you'd like... I don't forget which players I thought were good and ended up not being good.. I don't forget which players I held out little hope for that ended up being pretty good... I can admit when I was wrong and if Quinn ends up being gone and never amounts to anything else in the league, you won't see me revert to bashing him...
And yes, I fully understand that even if Holmgren keeps Quinn as the starter, that does not mean that he is totally in love with him... I understand there are other reasons to do that, which I thought I covered in option 2...
yebat' Putin
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Django.. I'm just curious. If Holmgren comes in here, and I think most agree that Holmgren knows QBs, and he decides to keep Quinn and give him at least another year. What are you going to say?
I trust you and Dj will forgive a slight hijack on my part because this is a question I'd like to answer.
If Holmgren wants to come and give Quinn another year, so be it. His desire to see if Quinn has it won't phase my lack of belief. Guys like Jaworski and Gruden are pro-Quinn and they do know the game. Their opinions haven't swayed mine. Holmgren's won't either. So if he wants to give him another year, I will sit and hope he can fix the things that Quinn has continued to struggle with, but it won't change my opinion. Nobody gets QB evaluation right all the time.
As you fairly noted, there could be other reasons not to yank the cord on Quinn, but being that it's the most important position, he isn't going to let him stick around if he doesn't hold some hope that he can turn into an NFL QB. That leads me to make sure and say:
If we do stick with Quinn, that isn't a validation of belief that he will definitely be good. The only thing it confirms is that he isn't ready to totally give up on him. I don't share that optimism. My "agenda" won't allow it. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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...I guess you didn't catch what the announcers said and showed when they replayed that specific play?
I couldn't care less what the announcers said. A bad play is a bad play, which is why I don't believe in Quinn. The end result was an underthrown ball into double-coverage. Choose why it happened and discuss all you want, but the why doesn't matter, only the result, and that result is totally unacceptable.
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Here's the deal toad...you have had an "agenda" against Quinn, that dates back to the drafting of Quinn. I remember your "word wars" with Diam, concerning Quinn and how you used everything you could come up with, to trash Quinn.
Yup, and three long years later, my concerns hold water.
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This franchise has won just 7 games in two seasons...and "that" is not the fault of just one player.
Since this thread is about "one player" that's what is being discussed, and the play of that "one player" can be evaluated quite well based on his own play and actions.
Do I have an agenda? No, I don't have a hidden agenda. There's no slinking around making shadowy insinuations designed to place subliminal messages or subconscious thoughts into the minds of the reader If you think attempting to use that word to discredit an opinion works, you're fooling yourself. Just ask Tulsa, who is starting to believe that all the negative talk about Quinn may be true. Is that my agenda driving his beliefs, or is it Quinn's continued bad play and lack of development? 
I voice my opinion. I don't believe in Quinn. I didn't when he was drafted. I don't now. His play has supported my position.
You can call it agenda if you wish. The term is meaningless to me as you don't even know how to apply it.
If Holmgren keeps Quinn that won't change my mind. The only thing that will is improved play, and until I see it, my opinion will stand. Sorry.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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So if he wants to give him another year, I will sit and hope he can fix the things that Quinn has continued to struggle with, but it won't change my opinion.
I just wonder though what it would take to start to change your opinion... I understand that simply opting to keep him and even let him start isn't going to do it, it's going to have to be his play, his production on the field that does it.... I honestly don't expect an exact answer ... in fact I don't really expect an answer at all.... because playing the QB position is more than yards and passer ratings.. I honestly can't tell you why my confidence in him has faded other than he just doesn't look comfortable and his production is way low, even with the talent around him and even with the limited number of starts, he needs to show me more... I won't know what that "more" is until I see it (or don't see it)... I'll let you know then.
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I just wonder though what it would take to start to change your opinion...
Would it surprise you if I told you I can give you an exact answer? 
It's very simple, at least from my perspective. (But in my typical fashion, I have to explain "simple" in a complicated way )
Numbers can and often do explain and express the end-result. But in terms of what I need to see from Quinn in order to start believing, it's not the numbers that matter, but the things that happen before the numbers are produced.
If Quinn is in 3rd and 10 every series, his numbers will obviously look bad, but they won't tell the entire story because they can't reflect the nature of why they look bad. So it wouldn't be fair for me to say "I expect to see a passer rating of 85 each and every week to finish the season or else." That wouldn't make a ton of sense, at least not as it pertains to what I need to see from him.
So, now that I've qualified my statement, I just need to see two things: Better decision making and better accuracy. Everything else will fall into place if those two issues are resolved.
I hate to harp on one bad play because it gives the "agenda" crowd a false platform to yell from, but that second INT is an ideal representation of what I see wrong in Quinn.
1) It was a very poor decision. I would expect a savvy QB to recognize that he was staring down the receiver and thus leading the other safety over to create a double-coverage situation. That's holding onto the ball too long and not looking off the safety.
2) Accuracy. Quinn looks really good on his 7-yard passes, but when it comes to making "NFL throws" he's been a dud. He badly underthrew Mass on that play. I mean BADLY. That lack of accuracy has been my biggest concern since his days in college, and his lack of development in that regard 3 years into his NFL career should be terribly disturbing to most fans.
Better decisions and better accuracy. That's all. If he fixes those, the rest falls into place. If he'd even just show some development with those two things by now I'd hold some belief in him, but he hasn't.
In terms of QB development, the first 2-3 years are where they make the biggest strides, even if they aren't seeing the playing field. Sure, playing helps, but they learn more in practice and in film study. Playing just refines what you've learned. Yet here we are some 13 starts or so and 3 years into his NFL career, and he's still making college mistakes and showing college accuracy. If he'd grow in those areas now I'd not be on his case, but he hasn't.
So my answer is simple, DC: He needs to show better smarts and better accuracy when the ball has been snapped and it's in his hand.
On a side note, I'm alarmed at the lack of criticism from the fans and media regarding Quinn. All is silent on that frong despite play that's near the very bottom of the league. I know Grossi is a pathetic Homer when it comes to Quinn, but he deserves much more criticism than he's getting right now, which is very little. I know "winning cures everything" but we aren't going to sack the other QB 8 times every game, nor are we going to have a 2nd-tiered back rush for 280 yards and see our guy return not one but two kickoffs for TD's every game.
I can easily see Holmgren giving Quinn one more year. I obviously don't agree (much to Mac's chagrin  ) but I can see the logic. If we're stuck with Quinn for one more year, I can live with it because it means we are spending resources on other critical positions.
Lastly, regarding any belief that Quinn should get a full three years worth of starts before truly evaluating him, Charlie Frye got 19 starts before his starting career was over, and we didn't need that many to see why.
EDIT: Just went back to see the first INT, as I was still at the airport when it happened. That was a rookie mistake, not a mistake a 3rd year pro should make.  Firing an airball down the middle of the field from your back foot? Jeez.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Thanks for the answer.. even though your answer is still sort of subjective... better decision making and better accuracy are both subjective, which is sort of what I said... you can't gauge by the numbers completely. Yes, his numbers will go up as those two things improve but.... oh, you know what I mean. Quote:
I hate to harp on one bad play because it gives the "agenda" crowd a false platform to yell from,
All it really does is give somebody else the opportunity to say.. What about this other time he DID make a great decision and an accurate throw... so I see what you mean.
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I know "winning cures everything" but we aren't going to sack the other QB 8 times every game, nor are we going to have a 2nd-tiered back rush for 280 yards and see our guy return not one but two kickoffs for TD's every game.
These are the same kinds of anomalys that happened in 2007 a lot and, coupled with a weak schedule, allowed us to win some games, then we found out the next year that it was all smoke and mirrors..
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Lastly, regarding any belief that Quinn should get a full three years worth of starts before truly evaluating him,
That's just stupid... yea, we gave Anderson the better part of 3 years, but he had a pretty productive year in there too... I don't think it will even take all of next year for me to make up my mind... in fact I think I'll know by the 3rd or 4th week because if Quinn is given next year and if he is going to make the strides needed, it's going to be the result of his work in the off-season and we should see the results of that effort fairly quickly...
yebat' Putin
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"EO is a master of that....cheerleading them as long as they play here and then bashing them and saying the same what the critical posters said after said player got fired"
Ya mean cause I'm a HOMER on a Browns' board....
I'll look at the half glass filled of anyone who is still a Brown and explain in football terms about that HALF GLASS FILLED portion. Which probably irks you that I can do so with football involved OH AND WITHOUT STATING HOW GREAT I AM..
Yes, when they are no long a Brown I am more apt to bring out the Glass half empty part...after all they are no longer a Brown.
The fact you have to question me. This isn't a game about WHO IS THE BEST GM...sorry put the XBox down for a moment. This is about how I choose to be a Browns' fan. Master it...sorry its easy to master it. Its called loving my Browns
My question is Why do you HATE your Browns 
 Now tell me again how Mack was a bad pick...  I'm Django...I'm the BEST GM...I'm Django I'm the BEST GM...hey we each fandom to our own drum. Frankly I like mine better. 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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