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Does it bother anyone else that players with no experience in our system, coaching or teammates seem to shine immediately?
Players released by other teams that step in and have an instant impact.
Of all the things that Mangini has done wrong, and there is a mountain of mistakes and mismangement to choose from, this may be the worst indicator of all of his incompetance.
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I agree 100%. When other team's scraps can start here and look great in our system, something is very wrong with that picture.
It just shows how far, so very far, we are from having a team that could go .500 let alone a winning season.
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I think it has a lot to do with the fact that these types of players are being given a chance to play and they just want to get out there and play football. Guys who are used to winning are taking their balls and going home and phoning in the rest of the season, and the guys who might not otherwise see the field are seizing the opportunity.
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You talking about Moore ? Quote:
Moore impressive in debut
Matt Florjancic, Contributor to ClevelandBrowns.com
12.06.2009
Tight end Evan Moore had quite a debut in a Browns uniform, despite the team's 30-23 hard-fought loss to the Chargers Sunday afternoon at Cleveland Browns Stadium.
Mere hours after he was signed to the active roster off the Browns practice squad, Moore caught 6 passes for a team-leading 80 yards. Moore averaged 13.3 yards-per-catch and had a long reception of 18 yards.
"It felt good," said Moore. "I was happy to get the opportunity this week. It is something to prepare for, for a long time. You don't really know when it was going to come. Tonight was my first opportunity. As long as I get an opportunity, I want to take advantage of it.
"For the most part, football is football and our coaches have done a really good job of kind of ingraining it in my head," he added. "I have seen a system like this before."
With the short week after his NFL debut, Moore is looking forward to Thursday night's home game against the Steelers.
"I felt like they put a good game plan in and gave me a chance to make plays," he added. "There still is a lot of work to be done. I made my share of mistakes, but we'll correct them and try to come back Thursday and get a win."
After the Browns won the toss and elected to receive the opening kickoff, Moore quickly became a favorite target of Brady Quinn.
Quinn completed all 6 of his passes on the opening drive with 3 of them going to Moore. Moore racked up 42 yards on those 3 receptions, including a 9-yard catch that prevented the Browns from facing a third-and-16. The reception gave the Browns a more manageable third-and-seven from the Chargers 11.
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/article.php?id=10223
Roster
Height:
6'6"
Weight:
247lbs.
College:
Stanford
Birthdate:
01/03/1985
Acquired:
FA - '09
Year in NFL:
2
89Evan Moore
Tight End
Games Played/Started:
Rookie
Career Totals
Career Transactions
Originally signed by New Orleans as an undrafted free agent on May 5, 2008; Waived by New Orleans on May 13, 2008; Signed by Green Bay on May 22, 2008; Spent 2008 season on Green Bay's Injured Reserve List; Waived by Green Bay on September 5, 2009; Signed to Cleveland's Practice Squad on November 9, 2009; Promoted to active roster Dec. 5, 2009.
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/player.php?id=3880
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What bothers me more is the absence or lack of development of the following players.
Syndric Steptoe
James Davis
Beau Bell
Martin Rucker
Paul Hubbard
Don Carey
Brian Robiskie
David Vikune.
Last edited by ChargerDawg; 12/07/09 12:26 AM.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!…. That did not age well.
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He's one!  Kind of rediculous if you really think about it.
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Not just Moore...
Roth (LB) came here and played immediately.
Allen (WR) came here and was inserted directly into the lineup.
Add in Moore and just like that 3 brand new Browns are seen to be better than the guys we've been using the entire year... They didn't need much practice or getting caught up to play. They were such an upgrade to what we had that they played right away.
That's terrible.
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What's sad is that Moore and Roth got huge amounts of playing time their 1st week here............basically replacing the starters by halftime..lol.
I don't know I've ever seen that before (besides injury). This is truly the worst Browns team in my life time, and that includes expansion.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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I wonder if it has to do that the talent we had to start the season with was really that bad...
Or if those players haven`t delt with the mess this organization May be in ? Is Mangini getting the players now that he may want to get....if he`s around next year..
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Quote:
I wonder if it has to do that the talent we had to start the season with was really that bad...
I think this has a lot to do with it; just remember how painful it was to watch the last six games last year.
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No. Not at all.
The QB play with Dorsey and Gradkowski to end the season was the reason for the woeful play.
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That still doesn't explain why the D got beat up and down the field. And the QB play and running game correlated with the right side of the OLine. When Tucker came back for a few games in the beginning of the year, they had their best game (the Monday nighter against the Giants where DA had time to smoke cigars in the pocket). Then Tucker went down and they couldn't really do anything the rest of the year.
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Legend
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It was one reason ...not the entire reason. Edwards was our only WR. Winslow was out with injury. Jamal Lewis was wearing down ...... The defense was a joke ..... Bear in mind that 1 of our QBs was Bruce Gratkowski ...... who has won against the Bengals ....and Steelers ..... this year ....... And this while playing for a Raiders team that will never be accused of being a great team. I mean ... he has Gerard Warren for a teammate ......  This team didn't "become" bad this year..... it's ben bad for a while now.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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How the heck does Gradgowski beat the Squeelers today ? He played 2 games for the Browns last year...throws 3 interceptions and no TD`s.... a qb rating of 2.8
And the great play of Dorsey...7 int`s and NO TD`s....
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After Quinn went down against the Bills we didn't score an offensive touchdown the rest of the season.
Here are the results.
CB 6 - Houston Texans 16
CB 6 - Indianapolis Colts 10
CB 9 - Tennessee Titans 28
CB 10 - Philadelphia Eagles 30
CB 0 - Cincinnati Bengals 14
CB 0 - Pittsburgh Steelers 31
So we played 4 playoff teams including the SuperBowl Champion to finish the season. The other two, the Texans and Bengals, were pretty good teams. I don't know the Time of Possession stats but I'd say they were lopsided from memory. In my opinion, the defense performed admirably for a team that couldn't get in the endzone to save it's life.
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Especially the Colts game. How the hell did we hold Peyton Manning to just 3 points? If my memory served me correct Indy scored on a fumble return when Schaffer got abused by Mathis...
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I know. I have no idea how Gradkowski won or threw 3? TDs in the fourth quarter. A little Johnny U magic out of nowhere. Actually who else is old enough to remember this??? Don "The Magic Man" Majkowski. Maybe there was some sort of Polish joke on the Squeelers today! 
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I'm going to play devils advocate here  Did anyone happen to notice that Moore caught eveything that hit his hands? Who traded Stonehands and got Moore?? True, Robiskie should have gotten a chance sooner,but when you claim someone off a PS you gotta put them on your active roster RE: Jake Allen True, Harrison has gotten scant playing time, but what happened with him under RAC? You can say the same thing for BQ. How much playing time would Roth have gotten under RAC? What about Moore? The Packers and Saints waived Moore. Roth,who did decent in Miami,was waived over a minor pizzing contest.  Like someone else said in this thread, this team has been bad for a long time which has several implications: 1. It's not all Mangini's doing that we are this bad,in fact he has gotten us these young players that are showing some skills by dumping some players that will not be around next year * Lewis * so that Harrison and Jennings can get playing time. 2. We have 11 draft picks b/c of Mangini. If all these young guys develop and peak at the same time we will be a good solid team. 3. It's gonna take awhile for the cream to rise to the top. We have four more games to observe. Hopefully Mangini will cut some dead weight ( Royal,Poteat) and get another player or two off a scrap heap to see if they can contribute long term. Rant // off
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Legend
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Quote:
What bothers me more is the absence or lack of development of the following players.
Syndric Steptoe
James Davis
Beau Bell
Martin Rucker
Paul Hubbard
Don Carey
Brian Robiskie
David Vikune.
Syndric Steptoe Not sure he was anything to begin with
James Davis got injured, how can you develop someone that's injured
Beau Bell he was a 4th round pick that was a reach
Martin Rucker I don't understand this kid not being on this team
Paul Hubbard Two different regimes couldn't make him fit
Don Carey Dude got drafted and then cut, there is more to the story
Brian Robiskie I agree on this one also
David Vikune. I agree on this one also
I'm not sure that this regime is much different than the last one in that once a guy doesn't just "light it up", it takes forever to get back in the good graces of the coaching staff...
thats a for what it's worth observation...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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2nd String
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Quote:
Of all the things that Mangini has done wrong, and there is a mountain of mistakes and mismangement to choose from, this may be the worst indicator of all of his incompetance.
Considering Mangini is the one acquiring these players, I fail to see how this shows his incompetence. To me, it just shows how pathetic the talent we already had here is/was. True, you can say that Mangini is the cause for the lack of talent, but if people are expecting him to gut the roster AND acquire excellent talent in the same year (his first year, mind you), then I think your expectations are too high. He's not going to hit on every one of his draft picks and not every new player acquisition is going to work out.
I liked watching Moore play. It was a pleasure to see a Brown's receiver catching with his hands. Good pickup by Mangini. If nothing else, he looks like a viable offensive option. Hope he stays healthy and continues to improve.
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Royal needs to be cut asap.....I really like having this Moore kid on the team, hard player, great hands lets see if he can string a few games together at that level....I feel comforable with having Moore, and Heiden as a 1 and 2 going into next season.....both are good blockers, and have pretty good hands, while I still miss Winslow, I think Mangini might have found us a very solid TE going into next year. one less area we need to worry about drafting....great signing
Also very happy to see Matt Roth tearing it up, street free agent or not the kid can freaking play.....he is still pretty young as well
so if you look at it like this take the drafted players, and the FA's we have gotten and look at the big picture, Mangini has missed on a few but has also hit on a few as well
Mack: is getting better each game
Robo: is showing he has what it takes
MoMass: Speedy, shifty...decent hands
Roth: showing he belongs, I hope we re-sign him
Moore: great outing, good routes, great hands...good attitude
Jennings: Hardnose power runner, with decent vision, and speed
thats just 6 players Mangini is responsible for....yeah some of his FA's have stunk the place up, and some of his picks have done the same, but Im starting to really change my opinion on Mangini,
this team fought hard the whole game, and I think we are finally seeing the "process" working hehe
GO BROWNS!! BEAT PITT!!!
#brownsgoodkarma
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Quote:
True, you can say that Mangini is the cause for the lack of talent, but if people are expecting him to gut the roster AND acquire excellent talent in the same year (his first year, mind you), then I think your expectations are too high.
I don't think my expectations are too high to expect better....if he gutted an already BAD roster he inherited (aka the ultimate PRO Mangini argument around here...bad enough if THAT is his biggest PRO, lol) HOW BAD has the talent evaluation been to make this roster even WORSE?
He made this roster OLDER and WORSE...that's really hard to accomplish and is bordering WORST CASE scenario in my book
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
After Quinn went down against the Bills we didn't score an offensive touchdown the rest of the season.
Here are the results.
CB 6 - Houston Texans 16
CB 6 - Indianapolis Colts 10
CB 9 - Tennessee Titans 28
CB 10 - Philadelphia Eagles 30
CB 0 - Cincinnati Bengals 14
CB 0 - Pittsburgh Steelers 31
So we played 4 playoff teams including the SuperBowl Champion to finish the season. The other two, the Texans and Bengals, were pretty good teams. I don't know the Time of Possession stats but I'd say they were lopsided from memory. In my opinion, the defense performed admirably for a team that couldn't get in the endzone to save it's life.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. That Colts game I distinctly remember was a muddy mess, precluding any kind of aerial attack. The Bengals game was around -30 wind chill with poor field conditions and no one really threw the ball there either (I remember this b/c I went to this game and my beer literally developed ice chips in it after about 20 minutes out in the cold). It was more the weather and the focus on the run that kept it low scoring. This is similar to last week's Cincy game where it looks OK on the scoreboard 16-7, but the Bengals gashed the D on the ground.
My argument is that the D finished 2008 26th in total D and 28th in rushing D and was already very bad last year.
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Quote:
I don't think my expectations are too high to expect better....if he gutted an already BAD roster he inherited (aka the ultimate PRO Mangini argument around here...bad enough if THAT is his biggest PRO, lol) HOW BAD has the talent evaluation been to make this roster even WORSE?
He made this roster OLDER and WORSE...that's really hard to accomplish and is bordering WORST CASE scenario in my book
IMO, these are the necessary byproducts of a complete rebuild. I don't know if the roster really is older (and I don't feel like adding up ages right now) but it is worse. The reason is at the end of last year, the Browns were very bad. They also were spending the fourth most on salaries of anyone in the NFL (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/cleveland-browns/salary). So they had to cut loose a lot of salary.
So they're not going get rid of someone like Winslow and go sign a big free agent for the same amount of money to replace him. Instead you fill roster spots with cheap veterans who know your system and stockpile draft picks. These veterans can teach the new players the system. In fact, I'm fine with this team not signing high profile draft picks this year (beginning of 2009) b/c a few high profile FA on a team with so many holes is just throwing money away. This way you build through the draft and are set long term.
Its not very easy to watch, but I think no matter who came here last year, be it Mangini, Cowher, Holmgren, or the reincarnation of Paul Brown, the results would've been the same.
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What's sad is that Moore and Roth got huge amounts of playing time their 1st week here............basically replacing the starters by halftime..lol.
Something not diffently right with this mess..they brought in Gaines ,who showed he has skills,but they don't use him.
They now bring in Moore and instead of using both, they use one..
Robo shows he can catch but they bring in another WR and use him..same on the defensive side ..bring in all these players and the ones who need seasoning get thrown in the freezer.
It's in indictment on this regime..it shows they don't know what they're doing initially and they certainly don't understand how to evaluate and develop talent.
Thats why I hope Lerner gets a real GM who will take over handling the roster.
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Legend
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Quote:
Thats why I hope Lerner gets a real GM who will take over handling the roster.
agreed..
I just wonder,, what if a new Czar, GM or VP whatever you want to call him,,, comes in and says,, I like Mangini and I want him to have more time..
How do you think the fans will react to that..... Has he slid too far down the hill to be retrieved? Just wondering
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Depends on who the GM is.
Him saying to go with EM for another year isn't saying he's here long term..just for one year.
It's tolerable if the GM is making the roster aquisitions and Manpolen is kept away from that.
This is one case we need to have the setup that was here when Opie shaped the roster and Rac coached it..
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A very traditional set up is what I'm looking for.. as you say,, VP/GM manages the rosters comings and goings, the coach coaches those he's provided.. But somewhere in there there can't be room for vendetta..
What I mean by that is this.. Let's take the case of Robo.. we don't know what has actually transpired, but by his performance yesterday,, I can't help feeling there was some ill will towards the young man that didn't actually relate to ability.. This may or may not be the case, but it's good illustration of my thinking.
We can't allow any childish ill will to stand in the way of the team progressing. Someone at the top has to step in and say,,, what are we doing and why are we doing it.. make the coach justify his actions. hold him as accountable as he's supposed to hold the players......
That's not to say that if a player is being a jerk, not working hard, not paying for bottled water at hotels, that it should be forgiven.. no no.. But geez,, we gotta stay clear of the petty BS.....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I had thought about that for a brief second..if Lerner gets a strong GM he will evaluate the roster..and he will get whats needed .
Plus as any GM should do, examine why the coach and his flunkies are using the personnel the way they are.
If there are any agendas occuring that should be squashed immediately.
Also any GM that comes in needs to know what happened to the previous GM.. 
Wish it was me..I'd have someones' tail turned up inside their intestines.. oh and I'd fire Dumboll on the spot.
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Quote:
Wish it was me..I'd have someones' tail turned up inside their intestines.. oh and I'd fire Dumboll on the spot.
Which leads me back to the original question I had.. If the new GM says,, I Like mangini and I'm going to retain him,, what will mangini say if Daboll gets the axe... will he even want to stay?
My guess, Mangini isn't adverse to throwing friends under a bus which tells me he'd help Daboll pack 
To me that means that he's NOT the guy we need.. JMO, but I hope the new GM or Lead dawg,,, gets a new coaching staff in here... All but Ryan and Seely.. I like both of them.. They both seem to get the most out of little talent.. I have to wonder what would happen if we gave them talent to work with.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I just hope we hurry up already as I am getting sick of seeing the word Czar all over the boards...haha
I think Mangini needs to have someone over top of him to tell him yes and no, he is a pretty good coach but just like Butch Daviswas, he is in over his head right now....if Butch Davis would have had someone over him he would still be here right now and we would probably be a playoff team, or better by now!
Last edited by Tubby_Dawg; 12/07/09 12:26 PM.
#brownsgoodkarma
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Quote:
Quote:
Thats why I hope Lerner gets a real GM who will take over handling the roster.
agreed..
I just wonder,, what if a new Czar, GM or VP whatever you want to call him,,, comes in and says,, I like Mangini and I want him to have more time..
How do you think the fans will react to that..... Has he slid too far down the hill to be retrieved? Just wondering
I'm hoping the Genius gets canned but if the new GM kept EM, signed a ligit FA ( not a Royal or St Clair) and had a sucessful draft.( top guys playing and a few others contributing) I'd be OK with that. Like Meatloaf says, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
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Street Free Agents..... look for the name Adam Hoppel to appear on the roster or practice squad ANY TIME NOW. Also look for Robinson on the active roster or practice squad, and Mosley to go on the DL 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Granted I only saw end of the 3rd and fourth qtrs.so maybe these guys put on an outstanding display before that,but,I believe you to be very kind in your assement.
Mack,Not very good.It's too late in the year to be saying he doesn't know what he's doing.
Robo-wasn't impressed.
Roth-not bad,not bad at all
More-good hands,but he's a plodder
Jennings-did he even play in the 2nd half?
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Legend
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Two of the moves have now been announced.
Browns | Robinson signed
Comment (0) Tweet me!
Mon, 07 Dec 2009 3:28:13 -0800
Aaron Wilson, of the National Football Post, reports the Cleveland Browns have signed free-agent DL Derreck Robinson (Cowboys). Terms of the contract were not disclosed.
Browns | Mosley placed on IR
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Mon, 07 Dec 2009 3:17:38 -0800
Mary Kay Cabot, of the Cleveland Plain Dealer, reports the Cleveland Browns have placed DL C.J. Mosley (ankle) on Injured Reserve, ending his 2009 season. Mosley suffered what is believed to be a broken ankle in Week 13.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Quote:
Does it bother anyone else that players with no experience in our system, coaching or teammates seem to shine immediately?
Nope, not in the slightest.
It just shows that Mangini and company are pretty good at finding guys who can play ball. They want football players and they find them. Roth is getting play-time cuz he was a gresat pick-up. Evan Moore showed skills in catching the ball, and Constanzo has been an absolute demon on special teams.
Yea, and people seem to think that Mangini doesn't know personnel. They think he won't take a flyer on a FA with issues.
He will, and he will bring in guys that the staff believe can help the team win.
I think Clevelnad would be stupid to get rid of Mangini next year. And the Manpolean garbage is ridiculous. Sure, Mangini has enemies in the league---the result of spygate. But this doesn't mean that he isn't a good HC, and it doesn't mean that he can't evaluate players.
He should get at least another year.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
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But this doesn't mean that he isn't a good HC, and it doesn't mean that he can't evaluate players.
While I agree that he's certainly been piled on...
...what has he done to show that he is and can?
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458 |
He has gotten rid of BE and K2.
He traded out of the top pick saving money.
He picked a Center first overall!!!!
He picked up two wr to solidify a position where we were lacking...brought in a solid slot guy to fill out the wr corps.
He is committed to building through the draft.
He looks to lay a foundation of committed football players who are disciplined and put football first.
He executes a practice routine that emphasizes physicality.
He is committed to building a sound running attack.
He isn't going to cave to media pressure.
He helped build a Jets team that has been tough and competitive when healthy.
He is a hard worker who puts in the hours, and emands his players do the same.
He is always looking to improve the team.
He is a good coach who deserves another year. He did what needed to be done---he stripped a bad team and began laying the foundation for years to come.
And for some reason---Clevelnad wants the guy gone. Everyone wants to jump ship as soon as things get tough. Mangini isn't going to jump ship---and he wants players who won't either.
All good qualities.
I haven't seen any moves that really bothered me. I think he gets it, and if given the opportunity---he will build a great team here in Cleveland.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
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He has gotten rid of BE and K2.
That doesn't qualify itself as a positive move. I'm not upset that those two are gone, but what have we gotten in return?
Massaquoi, Trusnik, Stuckey, a third and two fifths...I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I'm not really pleased with that.
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He traded out of the top pick saving money.
...and did a horrible job.
He walked into the draft with the 5th overall selection, and dropped down to 21...again, for what?
David Veikune, Brett Ratliff, Abe Elam, Kenyon Coleman, Coye Francies and James Davis.
I mean...that's bad. How much would you like to bet that in 2-3 years not one of those guys are on the roster?
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He picked a Center first overall!!!!
So did Butch.
How does this qualify as a good move? 
Not to mention...was center even really a pressing need this year?
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He picked up two wr to solidify a position where we were lacking...brought in a solid slot guy to fill out the wr corps.
Where would we be without Mike Furrey?
The rest of your points read like a Mangini press conference -- vague hyperbole.
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And for some reason---Cleveland wants the guy gone.
Whatever could that reason be?
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458 |
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That doesn't qualify itself as a positive move.
It sure does!!!
BE was gonzo after the season and K2 was damaged goods. We move em both and added draft picks and some role players. Yea, Trusnick and Stuckey are role players. Both guys have come in and contributed. Stuckey will be a great option in the slot for us. We have two rookies that will grow into other wr positions too.
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He walked into the draft with the 5th overall selection, and dropped down to 21...again, for what?
David Veikune, Brett Ratliff, Abe Elam, Kenyon Coleman, Coye Francies and James Davis.
And somehow we forget Mack, Mass, and Robiskie. Elam and Coleman were guys who knew the system. Coleman was solid for most of the year before IR. No one knows about Francies, Davis, and Veikune---but counting them out just because they are unknowns is stupid. They are unknown at best/worst. But we still got a center who will be here for awhile, two wr to fortify a position where we lacked last year and some late round projects.
Yes, Veikune was a reach-----but IMO people key in on this pick and forget about everything else. Overall, Mangini's first draft is much better than last years draft. And aguably better than Savage's first draft.
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How does this qualify as a good move?
B/c this is Cleveland, this is the AFC north----you wanna win here----you gotta be able to run the ball. This is a committment to that. And while it isn't a flashy pick, it will still be a good pick unless he pulls a LCB. A strong, smart center to bolster the line.
When Mangini took D'Brick and Mangold his first year in NY---I knew this guy gets it. And he does. But he has enemies in the league and in the media----and now, while rebuilding a horrible team on the shores of lake Erie, everyone is piling on----and Ctowns clueless fans are following suit.
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Where would we be without Mike Furrey?
Talking about Stuckey. 
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Whatever could that reason be?
Cuz the fanbase has zero patience, and they think they know better than the guys that actually make the decisions and make the money. The guys with 10+ years in the league. But Joe Cleveland always seems to know better. And our hack media does their best to feed the flames.
Mangini, Daboll, and Ryan need to stay. They brought us all these picks to build through the draft---they should get to see their plan through.
Cleveland needs to develop some backbone. Instead we change things up every few years. Dumb!!!!
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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