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I think you should also consider the major issues with Mangini as a coach. They are pretty well documented.
The primary issue that I have is the how and why the team was moved backwards with the personnel moves. We can only speculate on the Kokinis/Mangini relationship, but to an outsider it pretty clear that Mangini was calling all the shots. Hence, Mangini was playing GM as well as coach. Without a "check and balance", "buffer" or "left to his own demise", he brought in a lot of marginal players that "knew the system" or "fit his personality profile"
Trading Winslow and not replacing him with anything of value cannot be considered a wise move.
Stripping the team and making it older cannot be considered a wise move.
Purging players who may help the team in the future cannot be considered a wise move. The majority of players purged were 2 and 3 year players that for whatever reason the Browns felt necessary to give up on.
This approach has taken the Browns backwards.
I would not call him a good coach. Part of the ability of anyone is to recognize that it takes others to be successful. Pure reliance on past relationships for coaches (Daboll) and players can be considered a flaw.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!…. That did not age well.
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Overall, Mangini's first draft is much better than last years draft.
That's kind of like saying taking a poop in a bag and writing 'draft' on it is better than nothing.
Are you honestly reaching that far?
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How does this qualify as a good move?
B/c this is Cleveland, this is the AFC north----you wanna win here----you gotta be able to run the ball. This is a committment to that. And while it isn't a flashy pick, it will still be a good pick unless he pulls a LCB. A strong, smart center to bolster the line.
And I say it again...Butch did the same thing.
You want to defend him?
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Where would we be without Mike Furrey?
Talking about Stuckey. 
Sorry...mixed up my dime-a-dozen slot receivers. 
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Cuz the fanbase has zero patience, and they think they know better than the guys that actually make the decisions and make the money. The guys with 10+ years in the league. But Joe Cleveland always seems to know better. And our hack media does their best to feed the flames.
Over the last decade...yeah, I"m ready to say that Joe Cleveland knows better.
Half this board could have out-drafted our regimes...and sadly, sadly, sadly...that's not hyperbole.
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The primary issue that I have is the how and why the team was moved backwards with the personnel moves.
LOL THis team SUCKED last year ... and is still a bad team. We didn't go "backwards".
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Stripping the team and making it older cannot be considered a wise move.
Stripping the team of ... what exactly?  Saying that we stripped this team os anything is a massive reach at best. This team lacked talent. It was horrible. Last year we had a LT, LG, LS, KR, P, K, and a whole lot of question marks. (or worse) What was 'stripped away"?
The young players I most remember having been tossed overboard are guys like Martin Rucker .... Beau Bell .... and some guys we signed off the street last year.Rucker is a practice squad guy. Bell is out of the league .... as are most of the players we cut. Are we older? What was our average age ... and what is it today? I'm really not sure. Can you give me a breakdown?
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The majority of players purged were 2 and 3 year players that for whatever reason the Browns felt necessary to give up on.
Really?
Ruker and bell come to mind ..... but who else? Where did these players wind up? What teams grabbed them up when they were released?
Kevin Shaffer? OK
Andra Davis? OK
Sean Jones? OK
Charles Ali?
Hamza Abdullah?
Beau Bell?
Titus Brown?
Brad Ceislak?
Terry Cousin?
Travis Daniels?
Darnell Dinkins?
Ken Dorsey?
Bruce Gradkowski?
Willie McGinnist?
Ryan Tucker?
Seth McKinney?
Shantee Orr?
Steve Sanders?
Shaun Smith?
Issac Sowells?
Leon Williams?
Jason Wright?
Scott Young?
Which players are you referring to? Of those players .. how many are still in the league? How many contribute? How many have had even 1 good game this year? Maybe Davis? Jones has had 1 good game .... maybe 2 .... but I don't believe that he is even starting. Who else? Anyone?
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Pure reliance on past relationships for coaches (Daboll) and players can be considered a flaw.
And yet every coach does this to one degree or another. When Belichick took over the Browns, he brought in former Giants. Crennel brought in guys like McGinnist. BFD. Every coach brings in guys who can help install his system.
Coaches typically bring in coaches they know as well. There are very few instances where a coach says "I don't kow this guy .... but he's the one I want to run my (position)". Ryan came from the Raiders. Daboll from the Jets. Brad Seeley is a pretty well respected special teams coach. RB Coach Brown was a college coach. Cox was in New York. The LB coach was a college coach. Steve Hagan is a lifelong coach ... who had coached here before. DB Coach Henderson was a Jet. The WR coach was a college guy. Carl Smith has been around for a couple of decades .... including a stint here in the past. The OL coach was with the 49'ers and Cowboys before coming to the Browns.
What coaches were "pure reliance on previous relationships"? Face it ... every coach brings in some coaches he's familiar with. That's the nature of the beast. In order to teach a system you need coaches familiar with that system. If I want to run the West Coast offense,(for example) bringing in a run and shoot guy makes no sense.
People look for reasons to back up decisions they have already made. You have decided that you don't like Mangini, That's perfectly allowable ..... but you (and other) really stretch for justification sometimes, often repeating the same mantra that is misleading at times, and downrigtht false at others.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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LOL THis team SUCKED last year ... and is still a bad team. We didn't go "backwards".
We've definitely gone backwards.
Look at it this way -- Mangini walked into this situation armed with the #5 pick in the draft. From there, traded our two notable offensive weapons.
And this is what we've got.
Not progressing is going backwards in this league.
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Which leads me back to the original question I had.. If the new GM says,, I Like mangini and I'm going to retain him,, what will mangini say if Daboll gets the axe... will he even want to stay?
Answer me this: If EM leaves(voluntary/involuntary=fired) because of personnel decisions that are made will he ever get another HC job in the NFL ?
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Answer me this: If EM leaves(voluntary/involuntary=fired) because of personnel decisions that are made will he ever get another HC job in the NFL ?
I would think not, but who knows..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Did U understand the question?
If he is allowed to stay but gets tick'd because Dumboll or some other position change occurs from the GM..U know he won't get another shot at a coaching job..
The league does not respect him and he pretty much has made people dislike him...hate and disrespect might be better terms..
No NFL team will come running to hire him like Lerner did..
He's a joke to most teams...
Don't think he isn't aware of that,he is..he'll go along with anything that's slapped in his face..
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The league does not respect him.....
He's a joke to most teams...
Says who??? you??? more speculation and assumption...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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I understood the question perfectly,, and As I said, I doubt he ever gets another HC Job... But this league is crazy.. I don't know if he NEVER will be an NFL HC again. no way to tell..
You can be as positive as you want to be.. But I am not 100% sure.. Let's be honest here,, The owner that would give him a shot is sitting right out there in Oakland.. That's a nut job owner,, he might do it..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Did your yapper open up again?
I'm glad U like Manpolen..nice U think otherwise..want to run down all this support that he's getting right now?
Guess U need to open the brain valves somewhat..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/08/09 10:55 AM.
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I could see him going to college, actually.
It's a shame Notre Dame won't take him off of our hands.
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Unlike some people I know when to open my yapper and when to shut it...
You on the other hand keep your yapper going a thousand miles an hour no matter what kind of crap comes out of it.
I don't need to prove anything. You are the one making the outlandish claims...Why don't you prove your crap????
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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ooooo!
Guess U told me ...the pain,the pain..
Apparently U didn't listen to any of your common sense and keep shut....
And as usual, I don't have to prove anything to U..but we'll just let things play out..that'll be proof enough for U....
Lets play this game..of the Browns coaches hired since they returned are any of them HC's in the NFL now?
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/08/09 11:31 AM.
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Ya know Ammo,, he might end up being a good college coach.. except most of the really good ones are open in thier style of communications.. that might be a draw back,, Dunno
I have to get this off my chest a little here.. let me vent..
All this talk about Mangini,, well, he's either here or he isn't come the end of the season.. I don't know which way it's going to go.
I know my preference is for him to go away. But if a new GM comes in and wants to give him another year, I can actually see that angle as well..
Having said that, I don't hate the man.. No way did he come in here and intend to fail,., nobody does that purposely do they? SO to that end, I'll never hate the guy,,
I was excited about him when he got here,, but I can see the error of my thinking now.. (ain't hindsight grand LOL)
Either way, if he goes, I'll still wish the man no ill will.. .
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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By him being a good college coach, I mean...
1) I know he'll outwork other college coaches because he has the pro game work ethic that many college coaches don't have.
2) The type of player he looks for looks good to univerisities.
3) He seems like he can sell his program to kids. If Butch Davis and Bobby Petrino can do it in college yet ... off the Pro locker room, then there are some parallels between them and Mangini.
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And as usual, I don't have to prove anything to U..but we'll just let things play out..that'll be proof enough for U....
You keep yapping but I can't get past the stench...are you and Django related???
If Mangini is gone after this season WHAT DOES IT PROVE????
Absolutely squat unless you know everything behind the move to let him go. It could be that the new GM/Czar wants his own guy and thats it...It could mean that he was complete crap on the job and they want no part of him...(I already know what you think but you have nothing to back it up ) But unless you are privy to the inside info the simple fact of him being dismissed at the end of the year means SQUAT when it comes to proving your points. So as usual..you have NOTHING.
And if he STAYS????? Are you going to go slit your wrists???? Believe it or not, there is allot better chance that he stays than anyone would like to admit.
Why don't you try closing the yapper, stop reading the biased crap being written in the media and use a brain cell or 2. You might actually come across as someone who actually knows what he is talking about when you do open your trap.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Yup,, could be I guess,, whatever happens, like I said, I wish him well....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Is there another college coach out there with his type of coaching style???
I mean we all know he can be very personable one on one which would be very helpful in recruiting and such. But as far as being super secretive and such, I just don't know who out there could be considered similar.
I saw names like Butch thrown out (not necessarily as a personality comparison) but we have to remember that Butch was a talker and he was a motivator...Mangini doesn't strike me as that type...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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If Mangini is gone after this season WHAT DOES IT PROVE???? Well for one ..it proves U really should keep silent since that wasn't the question Daman asked me... 
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And again you prove that you have ZERO reading comprehension...you can read...but you certainly can't comprehend....let me know when you get past the Dick and Jane Books.....By that time I might have figured out how to slow my brain down enough to speak to you at your level... 
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Very good Petey..nice..I lack reading comprehension skills..
Old line..come up with a new one..
What am I supposed to decifer from you?
Well not much anyway..but I'll regard your little question this time..
Lets say ,just to appease you that the Manpolen is fired..what does it prove?
Even you should be able to see below two simple layers..
The GM brought in feels he's not valuable to keep..he's not the right HC for this team..
It proves he failed and Lerner made a big mistake in hiring him prematurely as he did.
I thought it was too early for potholes to surface but I guess I was wrong..
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Can't we all just get along 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Or it could just mean, "I want my own guy"...plain and simple...with zero reflection on what happened before.....it happens all the time in every business, not just the NFL...Heck we all have seen popular and successful people replaced by new management simply because new management wanted their own guy there...So just seeing a somewhat unpopular guy replaced does not automatically mean failure.
So again...unless you are privy to the inside information, the simple fact of Mangini not being here does absolutely ZERO to prop your arguments. It proves NOTHING.
Just like a situation of Mangini staying is not proof that the GM was "forced" to keep him.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Or it could just mean, "I want my own guy"...plain and simple...with zero reflection on what happened before Sure..believe that..no reflection of his time here..yeah..I'm sure his actions here would/could have nothing to do with any future decisions regarding him..yep.. So just seeing a somewhat unpopular guy replaced does not automatically mean failure.
UNPOPULAR???
What?? What inside info do U have that points him to being unpopular???
Thats unheard of...I'm upset..
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Can't we all just get along
Not in this life time
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I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Well I thought you typed the words in all caps because you thought I couldn't hear well..ya know.. like yelling with your keyboard..
I think I can handle your big words..as long as they mean something..
Oh ..and I see you added fanbase/public..guess I didn't see that before..pity..
Guess the rest of the NFL finds EM quite charming.....like a badger. Yeah and guys who have done great jobs that get replaced all the time in businesses all over the planet when new management comes in After you spit that out I had to go check the Browns record again to make sure your Wyle E.Coyote super genuis wasn't clouding my logic..When I last looked the Browns were 1 -11..not 11-1..so what great job are you comparing the Browns situation to?
U are aware this was actually a question regarding EM and the Browns, not some successful business outside of football?
Gotta get rid of the potholes in here..might damage someone..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/08/09 01:25 PM.
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I'd edit out the name Daboll at the end.
"I'll take your word at face value. I have never met you but I assume you have a face..lol"
-Ballpeen
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After you spit that out I had to go check the Browns record again to make sure your Wyle E.Coyote super genuis wasn't clouding my logic..When I last looked the Browns were 1 -11..not 11-1..so what great job are you comparing the Browns situation to?
U are aware this was actually a question regarding EM and the Browns, not some successful business outside of football?
And in one paragraph you illustrate your complete and utter lack of understanding of what is trying to be accomplished as well as your complete inability to think in the abstract and apply common happenings to this situation. You have NO vision, and can not think above any plane except that which is right in front of you and therefore are completely useless for any discussion. They say ingorance is bliss...I'd say you are in ecstacy.....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Quote:
Quote:
After you spit that out I had to go check the Browns record again to make sure your Wyle E.Coyote super genuis wasn't clouding my logic..When I last looked the Browns were 1 -11..not 11-1..so what great job are you comparing the Browns situation to?
U are aware this was actually a question regarding EM and the Browns, not some successful business outside of football?
And in one paragraph you illustrate your complete and utter lack of understanding of what is trying to be accomplished as well as your complete inability to think in the abstract and apply common happenings to this situation. You have NO vision, and can not think above any plane except that which is right in front of you and therefore are completely useless for any discussion. They say ingorance is bliss...I'd say you are in ecstacy.....
I have to admit, I'm enjoying being in the crowd for the verbal duel...almost as much as I'm enjoying the fact that neither of you is willing to give any ground.
Allow me to play dawgtalk UN for a moment.
Is Mangini THE reason we're 1-11? No.
Is Mangini ONE OF the reasons we're 1-11? Yes
My own two cents is that I've lost faith in Mangini, as have the fan base and in large part, as have the players. Since we're starting from scratch anyways, a coaching change really is not a huge deal anyways as the only continuity we're breaking up is losing.
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Bruce Gradkowski?
Just wanted to point out that Gradowski is the starting QB now in Oakland and they're 2-1(beating Pittsburgh AND Cincinati) since he took over.
Everyone else on your list sucks no doubt, but I just thought it was interesting that he was doing well in Oakland out of all places.
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And in one paragraph you illustrate your complete and utter lack of understanding of what is trying to be accomplished as well as your complete inability to think in the abstract and apply common happenings to this situation. You have NO vision, and can not think above any plane except that which is right in front of you and therefore are completely useless for any discussion. They say ingorance is bliss...I'd say you are in ecstacy.....
Mangini is proud of you....you BELIEVE and you understand the PROCESS
He got you with this gaze I suppose (and Lerner too) and now he indoctrinated you with his VISION
....have no fear though PETE, happens to the best of us....we're here for you and will cure you....it will be all good again, trust me 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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except that which is right in front of you That was the focal point of the comment ..that which was in front of me..U see I like to stay on course..not bounce around like a unconscience surfer being engulfed by a high wave.....
Or maybe I don't take what you said to be relative to the comments..actually it wasn't..but I guess U need to feel it was..
U just real testy today aren't U?..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/08/09 02:52 PM.
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I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Did you or did you not say Quote:
The league does not respect him......
He's a joke to most teams...
Back it up or STFU
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Oh so now since you've run out of comebacks U tell me to shut up?
Typical pothole response..feathers a bit ruffled Petey?
I don't have to go into detail but the league in a whole doesn't regard Manpolen in a good light .
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Is Mangini a reason we'r 1-11? Almost certainly.
Was it necessary? Almost certainly.
I might have a different perspective than other people do, because I have specialized in reclaimation projects throughout my own management career.
Way back in the day, I took over several underperforming chains for a national pizza company and turned them around. In the process, I had to get rid of some of the "better" employees because while they were "better", they were also not going to do things the right way ..... so keeping "better" meant that new hires had this type of person as a role model, and that this behavior would be accepted because "the better people did it that way".
I have done the same today. You do not keep people who are going to do things their own way no matter if they are "better" than some new person or not. Once they refuse to do things the way they need to be done, they must be removed from the organization. These type of people become a cancer .... and lead to a repeat of failed behavior over time.
Thus, when you bring in new people .... even if they are not as "talented" ..... and possibly even if they too will not work out long term, you are trying to find the right kind of people .... who will do the right things, the right way, on a consistent basis. It is the only way to win in business, and the only way to win in the NFL.
This is what Mangini has done. He jettisoned a number of "better" players ..... and got players who would do things the right way. They don't have the talent of the guys let go in some cases ..... but they will also not disrupt the team by trying to shortcut and do their own thing on the field. If they are not phisically talented enough, well... that means they must be replaced, but they are not poisoning others along the way.
Just my ever so humble $0.02 worth.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 269
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 269 |
Great explanation, YTown. That's exactly how I see the moves Mangini made. It was all about getting players in here that worked and played the way Mangini wanted (even if they didn't have as much talent) so that the culture of the team could be in place for when he brings all the young players in, with presumably more talent, next year.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667 |
And the yapper keeps yapping and the crap keeps coming out. I say it again...Back it up or STFU.... You can't back it up...because all you have is crap... YTown...thanks for the response...at least I know there are a few people with a brain out there who can think on several levels. 
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284 |
So if someone disagrees they need to "shut up" but if they agree then they're the only smart ones? I love this board
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