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Ytown, if indeed that is what mangini was thinking, I have no problem with it. Like you, I've been there and done that as well. But for me, it goes beyond those things you bring up. (again, all good points) The list is long and certainly doesn't need brought up again (oh lord, not again please not the list of Manginis misdeeds  )
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No...not at all....you and I have disagreed a thousand times on this board....We have gone back and forth on many things....But I don't ever remember you stating things that are completely untrue and unsupportable as fact. I am getting sick and tired of all the crap that is being passed along as fact and I will call it out...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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So if someone disagrees they need to "shut up" but if they agree then they're the only smart ones?
I love this board 
Oh Petey doesn't like my comments..they're too on target ...
The thing is what Ytown laid out might be the thought process of a GM coming in evaluating EM..
However if it's not...if he thinks Manpolen has really screwed up the team and he has a better HC in mind..dude is out..now if he feels he's a good enough HC ,then he'll keep him with whatever restrictions are laid upon him..and as Daman was asking me,if the new GM decides to replace Dumboll would EM leave?
There's the rub..EM knows no other team is going to beat his door down offering him a HC job ..(pant, pant)sooooo he'll have yield to whatever is imposed on him or fade into the sunset..
Like I asked the question what Browns HC since their return has gotten another NFL HC job?
They've all failed miserably..
Now if Super Genuis can lay claim otherwise I'd like to see it.. Petey would have everyone believe that the league doesn't view EM in the light I said they do..but reality is reality..
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No...not at all....you and I have disagreed a thousand times on this board....We have gone back and forth on many things....But I don't ever remember you stating things that are completely untrue and unsupportable as fact. I am getting sick and tired of all the crap that is being passed along as fact and I will call it out...
Fair enough Pete I just thought it was kind of funny 
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Petey would have everyone believe that the league doesn't view EM in the light I said they do..but reality is reality..
Well AD,, to be perfectly fair, you really can't possibly know how the rest of the league views Mangini,,,,,
You may be right, but there is a chance you aren't. We've seen guys get jobs that maybe were thought of as tyrants..
Some have done well, one has even won a SB as HC. Tom Coughlin, man he was hated in his first HC job,, he did win however which is why the Giants hired him. Now go back and look at how Coughlin was received in NY that first year.. oh man, he was hated again.
But he loosened up and now I don't think he's hated anymore.. dunno cause I don't follow the Giants...
Point being, your statement about how he is viewed really is JUST your opinion...
Now, having said all that,, I agree, I think he's not viewed favorably either. I think he's thought of as a kinda backstabber.. The Spygate thing, Comments about McDaniels after the Denver game and the entire situation with Kokinis is smoky at best..
But let's be clear, its JMO... I got nothing to back it up..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Point being, your statement about how he is viewed really is JUST your opinion...
And U know this how?
Is that your opinion or you are able to see what I look at from time to time?
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And the yapper keeps yapping and the crap keeps coming out. I say it again...Back it up or STFU....
You can't back it up...because all you have is crap...
Hey Pete,
how about you backing up that Mangini did something good/improve the Browns in his 11 month in Berea 1st?
There were numerous reports from Lombardi (from NFPost, also working for NFL.com) that Mangini was a running gag in league circles...before game 1 that was...I posted them on here
There was also report not long ago, that EM was relieved from his DC duties by his master because he sucked....also posted on here
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Sooner or later, it's all going to come out. It's really not worth arguing about until Mangini is axed...that's when the facts come out.
That's how it went with Butch...once he was gone, the floodgates opened and we all heard that he was a joke.
I remember one of the GM's in the league saying something to the effect of 'every draft war room has a whiteboard filled with A, B, C, D, etc. options. Butch Davis' had one name only - Kellen Winslow, and teams were banging down the door to dupe him.'
Not to mention the fact that the media hates his guts, and there's going to be a field day when he's let go.
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Ya know, YTown, I have always liked you. I could never understand what it was but now I know........... 
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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And U know this how?
Is that your opinion or you are able to see what I look at from time to time?
Yup it's my opinion that your opinion isn't fact..
Next, are you going to ask me if the team would be worth more as a winner or a loser
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Djan: Toad & YTown seem to be the types of people capable of honest evaluations. I don't think either one have ever had a agenda. They want what we all want. A winning team. I think I understand whats being done here. We knew it was going to be rough, and yet when it gets rough we want to throw the baby out with the bath water. Do I think Genie is the Ritz? No, I do not. Do I even care for the guy? No I do not. But.....I can see what is transpiring and some of the reasons why. I think both Toad & YTown see this also, things are this bad for a reason and even thou we don't like it, it is a necessary evil for now, but it will get better. Whether Genie is around when it turns remains to be seen.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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Oh ok, there are more problems then EM....that's as common playce as there is...we all agree here....
and I'm not throwing EM under the bus because we stink NOW, I called him out before ALL THAT happened...some call it agenda....I label it strong assured opinion on the guy stinking to high heaven....I posted my reasons and they are on display for everybody now
Retaining Mangini would be like re-electing Bush...."fool me once....uhm" we would not deserve any better...and I honestly think that guys who are still on this fool's side don't deserve any better...but since I'm a Browns diehard too, I'll keep arguing against it
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Retaining Mangini would be like re-electing Bush...."fool me once....uhm" Uhmmm........We did re-elect Bush. Truth be told, I wish he were still the Pres. now. I think you've had some good solid opinions about EM. However, you've also shown where it really doesn't matter what he does that you burn him to the ground. I can't read you and take you seriously because of that.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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In all fairness to Bush, he got at least 4 years to show what he could or couldnt do, then another 4....so far EM hasnt even had a full year yet and alot of people want him gone.
I am stuck in the middle, my knee jerk emotions says can this idiot 3 days ago, but then when i step back and look, i am starting to see that maybe there is a method to his madness. these guys actually fought sunday......thats very encouraging to see!
#brownsgoodkarma
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I am stuck in the middle, my knee jerk emotions says can this idiot 3 days ago, but then when i step back and look, i am starting to see that maybe there is a method to his madness. these guys actually fought sunday......thats very encouraging to see!
You don't find it disconcerting that you're finding hope in the fact that our players didn't quit in week 13?
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yeah and i see what your saying, but this was the first time all year that this team played as a team with fire, and emotion. I think maybe Mangini finally has these guys bought into the team concept and we might be heading in the right direction......hey when you hit rock bottom there is only one place to go and that is up.....i want to see how we look thursday tho before i am toally sold
#brownsgoodkarma
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I see what you're saying as well...
..personally, my mind is just about made up. I don't see Mangini or Quinn as a solution for this team...and honestly think that any modest success at the tail end of this year might be a false positive that's more detrimental in the long run.
I completely see where that argument is flawed and would be more than happy to be wrong...but that's JMHO.
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No...not at all....you and I have disagreed a thousand times on this board....
but you only have 1355 posts...
Meh.
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EM knows no other team is going to beat his door down offering him a HC job
Norv Turner got another job ... so nothing's impossible ....... 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The primary issue that I have is the how and why the team was moved backwards with the personnel moves.
LOL THis team SUCKED last year ... and is still a bad team. We didn't go "backwards".
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Stripping the team and making it older cannot be considered a wise move.
Stripping the team of ... what exactly?  Saying that we stripped this team os anything is a massive reach at best. This team lacked talent. It was horrible. Last year we had a LT, LG, LS, KR, P, K, and a whole lot of question marks. (or worse) What was 'stripped away"?
The young players I most remember having been tossed overboard are guys like Martin Rucker .... Beau Bell .... and some guys we signed off the street last year.Rucker is a practice squad guy. Bell is out of the league .... as are most of the players we cut. Are we older? What was our average age ... and what is it today? I'm really not sure. Can you give me a breakdown?
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The majority of players purged were 2 and 3 year players that for whatever reason the Browns felt necessary to give up on.
Really?
Ruker and bell come to mind ..... but who else? Where did these players wind up? What teams grabbed them up when they were released?
Kevin Shaffer? OK
Andra Davis? OK
Sean Jones? OK
Charles Ali?
Hamza Abdullah?
Beau Bell?
Titus Brown?
Brad Ceislak?
Terry Cousin?
Travis Daniels?
Darnell Dinkins?
Ken Dorsey?
Bruce Gradkowski?
Willie McGinnist?
Ryan Tucker?
Seth McKinney?
Shantee Orr?
Steve Sanders?
Shaun Smith?
Issac Sowells?
Leon Williams?
Jason Wright?
Scott Young?
Which players are you referring to? Of those players .. how many are still in the league? How many contribute? How many have had even 1 good game this year? Maybe Davis? Jones has had 1 good game .... maybe 2 .... but I don't believe that he is even starting. Who else? Anyone?
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Pure reliance on past relationships for coaches (Daboll) and players can be considered a flaw.
And yet every coach does this to one degree or another. When Belichick took over the Browns, he brought in former Giants. Crennel brought in guys like McGinnist. BFD. Every coach brings in guys who can help install his system.
Coaches typically bring in coaches they know as well. There are very few instances where a coach says "I don't kow this guy .... but he's the one I want to run my (position)". Ryan came from the Raiders. Daboll from the Jets. Brad Seeley is a pretty well respected special teams coach. RB Coach Brown was a college coach. Cox was in New York. The LB coach was a college coach. Steve Hagan is a lifelong coach ... who had coached here before. DB Coach Henderson was a Jet. The WR coach was a college guy. Carl Smith has been around for a couple of decades .... including a stint here in the past. The OL coach was with the 49'ers and Cowboys before coming to the Browns.
What coaches were "pure reliance on previous relationships"? Face it ... every coach brings in some coaches he's familiar with. That's the nature of the beast. In order to teach a system you need coaches familiar with that system. If I want to run the West Coast offense,(for example) bringing in a run and shoot guy makes no sense.
People look for reasons to back up decisions they have already made. You have decided that you don't like Mangini, That's perfectly allowable ..... but you (and other) really stretch for justification sometimes, often repeating the same mantra that is misleading at times, and downrigtht false at others.
Ok a couple of points that I have noticed about the Browns. First, as a general statement they seem fairly incapable of developing their own players. This applies to late round draft choices as well as free agents. Generally the pattern is as follows, first year you hear nothing, second year they appear in games, and third year they begin challenging for a starting position, and by the fourth they are considered integral to the team.
I will use San Diego as an example Kris Dielman, Antonio Gates, Vincent Jackson, Steven Cooper, Mike Tolbert, Tim Dobbins, Brandon Siler, Paul Oliver Legadu Nanee, the OLmen and Malcolm Floyd fit this general profile. Aside from Jackson, these are all fifth round or lower draft choices or free agents. You could argue that San Diego is loaded with talent, but they appear to have more of a plan for the development of their players than the Browns. This did not change when Norv replaced Marty. I will also state that if they would have been cut, it is unlikely that another team would have picked them up. You can add Philly, Colts and Giants to the list of teams that do a pretty good job at developing talent.
I can't do the same for the Browns, Obviously Josh Cribbs, but who else? Maybe Leigh Bodden, Brandon McDonald, Lawrence Vickers and Rubin fit this general profile, but you don't see any reasonable progression. Alex Hall gains splinters, Bell and Rucker are released, and I can go back to Kirk Chambers as well. I have no idea why Wilson and Sowells hung around for so long, except to justify a bad draft decison. The point is other teams do a better job at scouting and developing players than the Browns do.
What I have seen is patchwork players. I will call St Clair, Poteat, Bowens, Coleman and others as being short term solutions. So the team has gone backwards. Not just by the record, but by their ability to develop within. So this is stripping of the team, exchange of one bad part for another, older marginal player is just not rational. When you get a chance look and see how much Hadnot gets paid.
I do have a concern with Daboll as well. I don't see any consistency within the playcalling and that comment has been stated by others.
So Mangini come in, cleans house and brings in his own. And downgraded the team in the process. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!…. That did not age well.
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2nd String
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So did Belichick  and very few in cleveland and the media liked him... IMO
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Next, are you going to ask me if the team would be worth more as a winner or a loser
Daman answer my question!!
Do U or do you not know what I see during the course of a day????
ANSWER IT NOW!!! or be silent forever.
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Daman answer my question!!
Do U or do you not know what I see during the course of a day????
ANSWER IT NOW!!! or be silent forever.
I do,,, and you need glasses 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I do have glasses to read..so quit retreating..do you or do you not know what I see daily and am privy to??
Huh? Whats that?
Did you say "No"....
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I do have glasses to read..so quit retreating..do you or do you not know what I see daily and am privy to??
Huh? Whats that?
Did you say "No"....
Have you turned into Mac or somethimg.,., Dumb questions,, and frankly, who gives a damn....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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As pointed out by the very smart, and good looking GMdawg almost 48 hours ago Adam Hoppel has been added to the practice squad. http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/player.php?id=3827We now return you to your regularly scheduled fighting among yourselves.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Hehe..got you real good...
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Hehe..got you real good...
You sure did man,, thanks I needed that....
Feel all better now?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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As pointed out by the very smart, and good looking GMdawg almost 48 hours ago Adam Hoppel has been added to the practice squad.
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/player.php?id=3827
We now return you to your regularly scheduled fighting among yourselves.
Whoa now, sources are definitely needed for the bolded.
you had a good run Hank.
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I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Quote:
I see what you're saying as well...
..personally, my mind is just about made up. I don't see Mangini or Quinn as a solution for this team...and honestly think that any modest success at the tail end of this year might be a false positive that's more detrimental in the long run.
I completely see where that argument is flawed and would be more than happy to be wrong...but that's JMHO.
I think many people went from hope, to giving benefit of the doubt, to sincerely hoping that they were wrong, to acceptance. I would add Randy Lerner to your list, then it would be complete. Sorry, I don't buy into the "perfect owner" thought process. He's a major disconnect from the city of Cleveland.
There are a number of different ways to build a Super Bowl contender. I think most of us are at a point where we don't believe our current path is one of them.
Barry Bonds Check
Roger Clemens Check
Mark McGuire Check
Lance Armstrong Check
71-79 Steelers Taboo
(Lets pretend it didn't happen.)
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