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If Gini had looked at a draft book,as someone else has stated, or looked at ESPN draft coverage, maybe Gini would have made a more informed decision.
Mel Kuiper has a "best players left" running across the bottom of the screen IIRC.
Problem is that Mangini was desperate for a tweener. Reaching is a result of desperation....
so in your opinion, espn and a couple sports opinionists should the guiding intelligence used by our draft team? to say that information like this would help make a more informed decision over something like, say, a scouting report, or a visit to watch a game, is a pretty humorous statement to say the least.....
really?
wow...thats a larger reach that DV in the second.....
or he wanted a good tweaner for Ryan, whose just shown a crazy UFO nickle that could greatly benefit from a player capable of playing all linebacker positions and rush the midle and edge.
more like logic than desperation to me.....
in one sense I was being sarcastic about having Mel Kuiper on TV in the war room,but OTOH what if Dwight Clark and Carmen Policy has listened to Mel Kuiper???
I understand that Mangini drafted DV for a specific need,but we also had other needs.That is why alot of others mention Loadholt. Drafting a tackle would prolly have been less risky. So far the gamble that is David Viekune has not paid off.
There is more evidence to support the theory that DV is a bust than there is otherwise.
Right now this guy has bust written all over him. That could change and I sincerely hope it does  We need all the talent we can get.
One thing is for certain, we should know for certain in about a year.
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I'll say it.David Veikune is a bust.
He's a second round draft choice for a 2 and 11 team and hes not good enough to put on a uniform on game days.
When I watch St Clair butcher the RT position and remember we could have drafted Loadholt whos playing decent RT for the Vikes but instead we got two 2nd round stiffs that contribute absolutely zero to help this miserable team. It pisses me off.
So yeah, I don't much care for Veikune or the people who drafted him. 
I think it was Parcells that said, you are what your record say you are. I'd argue the same applies to DV. He's basically a practice squad guy that so far has been a complete waste of a high draft pick.Thank you Manganius. For the love of pete, buy a draft magazine. I'm sick of anxiously following the draft only to see the Browns get guys who can't play. 
Moe:
Veikune is transition from De to ILB..that is a "huge" move. Why rush the kid if he isn't ready?
If Veikune "isn't ready" will putting him on the field make the team any better?
Will Veikune being "out of place" going to make the team any better?
No it won't..Veikune needs to red shirt this year...he needs to develop...he will be a starter probably sometime next year..the kid will be a good player.
Troy Polamalu(a 1st rd pick) NEVER STARTED A SINGLE GAME his rookie year in 2003
http://www.nfl.com/players/troypolamalu/profile?id=POL041872
I think he got spot playing time in a few garbage games...many Steeler fans were labeling Troy a bust back then because he never really played.
Cowher was smart and held him back until he was ready to play...and we see the rewards of that today with Troy.
rushing Veikune will be a mistake and hurt his development...he will be ready next year.
there is no point rushing the kid out on the field when he can't help right now because he isn't ready.
many have unrealistic expectations of rookies..look at MoMass he struggliing as WR, same with Robo..they are both 2nd rders...WR usually struggle their 1st year...they are hurting the Qb right now, but willl help him in the future.
Wr and ILB are two different monsters however, and ILB is a huge change from DE
Veikune needs to learn how to:
1. Play standing up.
2. Play in the middle
3. Take on guards
4. Plug the A or B gap(depending on if he is left or right ILB)
5. Drop into zone coverage in the middle.
not mentioning learning the ILB plays in the playbook.
He needs time to develop..that is a "huge" change from playing DE where you put a hand down and rush
If Veikune was going to be used as a DE or even an OLB...we may have seen him some allready...but DE to ILB is learning an entirely new position and the kid just needs time to adjust.
to label him a bust at this time is unfair..the kid has loads of talent, it just needs time to grow..be patient...I was kinda excited when we drafted this kid...he has Teddy Bruschi written all over him...if he can "half" what Bruschi was...we will have ourselves a hall of famer and the best LB here since clay Matthews..
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You just don't pick "projects" with a Top 60 pick....it's a no go and recipe for failure (see most Raiders Top picks, ie DHB)....end of debate  Veikune has 4.9+ "speed"...so he's as slow as a 30+yo MLB and as clueless as a rook with the mental aspect of the game.... He was a bust when I saw a backup blocking TE of the Bears sprint right by him and he couldn't even make up 1yd on him all the way to the EZ....guy just doesn't have the skill set...Heldawg, who is from Hawaii, said Purcell was as good if not better than DV....let that sink folks  I fully expect DV to be cut next TC with a new sheriff in town...
#gmstrong
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IIRC, Heldawg also said that DV was not even expecting to get drafted.
I agree about not picking projects in the 2nd round. You can't take chances in the 2nd.
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According to Held, the Hawaii fans didn't expect him to get drafted. Draftniks predicted him to go right where he went.
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I'm sure he'll refresh my memory, but I recall a story that said he was out doing something because he personally didn't think he'd get drafted until the 2nd day.
I could easily be recalling the wrong player, though.
Frankly, I don't care for the concept of taking projects with high picks either.
I don't buy into these players not seeing the field because they suck. Mangini has his own way of doing things which entails players not playing for other reasons. However, the waste we created when Butch took Chump Thompson still resonates in my memory banks, and I hate the idea that Veikune could be the next special teams backup to leave town taken in the top 60 picks of the draft...........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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It was him, but remember, day 2 begins in round 3 (actually round 2 now that Goddell has screwed it up even more). Most projections I saw for him were rounds 2-3.
I'm definitely not willing to call him a bust yet, though I am somewhat disappointed with his ability to get on the field.
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He was a 3rd to 4th rounder on most boards....on "some" draftnik sites he was a Top 75 to 100 player but mostly 100-150+ He was a late 3rd, early 4th round flyer like Leon Williams was....Mangini picked him #52 with McCoy, Loadholt and Sean Smith on the board...all positions of need now: RB, RT, and CB....but yeah, Mangini needed his own ILB backup project with Leon Williams and Beau Bell already on the roster and DQ+Barton starters picking DV and Maiava to get rid of Leon and Beau was the dumbest lateral move Ive ever seen a front office with 10+ needs make  .....we had bigger needs than C and backup ILB for the future
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Since the theory of drafting for need versus drafting for skill still applies, I can make a good case for the selection of Mack. 
The real question is going to be how well his 2nd rounders work out..........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
According to Held, the Hawaii fans didn't expect him to get drafted. Draftniks predicted him to go right where he went.
Just to be abundantly clear.
I am a season ticket holder and booster for the UH Football Team. I saw plenty of David Veikune and liked for the most part what I saw. I especially liked his motor and his ability to shed blockers. But Mel Purcell and Ikaika Alama-Francis were far better players here both from a production and a physical standpoint than Veikune.
The first day of the draft he went golfing with friends at Mililani Golf Club. His family was hosting a party for Day 2. It was not a sure thing he was going to be drafted according to many here in Hawaii.
When he got drafted in the second round it shocked everybody: him, his family and his teammates.
Ryan Mouton was by far the best defensive player at the time. He was All-WAC, the team's leader and he had NFL measurables running a 4.42 as a safety. For Veikune to go before him was unbelieveable if anyone had watched Hawaii games.
Going into the draft I would have been surprised if he was drafted. I am not a draftnick and I watch more pro games than college. But I do watch more college games than the average football fan.
And from what I saw with my own two eyes...was that he just isn't physically that gifted. I thought and still think he'd have a tough time getting around any NFL RT let alone a LT. To me that's why I think he's been moved to ILB. They tried him at OLB and it just didn't work (my reasoned opinion).
Now they're having him learn the ILB position and apparently he's not ready to produce there or special teams. That's not a good sign. Especially if it's true that he is smart.
Trust me. I don't want to be proven right but I was on this board at the time of the draft and I hated the pick having watched him for 2 years here.
I would have much rather had any number of guys I had seen on TV especially Loadholt who I was very much impressed with at Oklahoma.
But now he's a Brown and I wish him the best. I hope he proves everyone wrong and becomes a terror on the inside like Teddy Bruschi.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Heldawg/rgiii2.jpg)
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I don't know how some dawgs can call him a bust without actually seeing him play for any extended time if at all!
Its a tough position to transition to College DE to 3-4 ILB NFL.
I'm pretty sure he is struggling in coverage and thats just an ASSumption cause it is a difficult area for the transition.
But to state the fact that some were surprised where we took him (I know I was) I doubt if he would have been there that much longer - and the biggest reach of the day was NE Voller - after 40 picks a lot starts happening thats not on everyones board. Including the pretend GMs.
One just has to look at Ted Bruschi...He didn't start year one, He didn't start year 2 and the last 8 games of year 3 he started. Year 4 he started but it wasn't until Year 5 that he started at the ILB position - under RAC and the first full season of the 3-4 by the Pats.
Also I thinking holding DV back a little in his confidence and face time in games is the simple fact that others have beat him out in Special Teams.
And who knows if he's in the dawghouse for something???
We'll see but if one out of 4 first day picks don't make it...I ain't going to cry considering all the First Rounds picks we have made not even in Football!!!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Definitely not stupid. Mangini praised him for being able to pick up on the defense immediately, and he got like a 30 on the wonderlic.
I'd say his inability to get on the field stems from his transition to ILB from DE.
I was not trying to imply that he is stupid. There are only two things that could keep him out of the lineup. He is not ready physically or mentally to play. I can understand Mangini not wanting to use a roster space on a dedicated special teamer, but if practice squad players can get time, why not Veikune? He was a pass rushing specialist in HI, and could be on the field as a lineman, which we desparately need, or as a OLB with pass rush priority. I just hope we didn't waste a pick, or that he's physically not ready due to some injury. I don't know if you have to report injuries on players that have been inactive.
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"One just has to look at Ted Bruschi..."
As one of those radio guys used to say "Now for the rest of the story"
"1996 (16/0; 3/0): Played in every game as a rookie, filling a role as a pass rush specialist and playing on many special teams units … Finished the season with 11 tackles, including four sacks … Ranked third on the team with 17 special teams tackles …"
Courtesy of NE website.
EO,as you well know,LB's should shine on STs,especially kick and punt cover teams.Speed,agression and tackling ability are a must for those units,as well as playing LB.
A 2nd round LB,that can't cut it on STs,well that is a huge,huge red flag to me.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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No,the surrounding players have absolutely nothing to do with this.
It comes down to player eval.Both teams had o-line needs,one team choose a LB,the other took a RT.
The RT is starting,the LB is nothing more than a cheerleader.
You're really good with those little smiley faces,whatever makes you happy.
I like the emoticons because they can really relay my facial expressions and tone towards people when typing (as tone in writing on the internet can be borderline nonexistent). Not sure what they had to do with the conversation but hey, we're COOL here, so back to the discussion at hand!
I used the loopy face because I strongly find it completely irrational to label a guy a bust even after one season. He was a late second round pick and is changing positions. Your boy Loadholt did not have to do that (unless if memory seems to think he may have been an LT in college and made the switch to RT? Not sure and too lazy to research.) and if he did indeed switch, the switch from left to right tackle is easier. Going from DE to OLB in a 3-4 is difficult, playing inside backer where you need to be made of mental titanium and have even more responsibility to your surrounding players is even more difficult of a switch I would argue.
Looking at this season and what's going on as far as the young guys being brought along and whatnot, I wonder if the "method to the madness" of Mangini was to draft more developmental project guys who he felt were low risk because of certain measurables and their character, and just said forget about this year and was thinking of year two and so on as if he had this warm security blanket that he would be back for another season(s) no matter what the circumstances are. Well... he probably has to realize that is not the case now.
Mixed feelings on Mangeezy. The next three games might make or break his career. Wonder how he feels about that... 
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
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Your boy Loadholt did not have to do that (unless if memory seems to think he may have been an LT in college and made the switch to RT? Not sure and too lazy to research.)
Yes, he was a Left Tackle at Oklahoma. Yes, I believe that he was projected to play Right Tackle in the Pros with a switch in an emergency. I was also shocked at the Veikune pick as I believe he was considered late 2nd or 3rd round by most draft mags. I will try to find one of them as I believe he was ranked in the teens for DEs. Hope he learns and that he does not turn out to be a bust.
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I think it's all a matter of what the definition of bust is. Which luckily IMO is easier than what the definition of is is. Whats done is done. DV is a Brown, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he'll be able to contribute next year. I'm also keeping my fingers crossed that the Browns don't use anymore high draft picks on projects/ busts. It's hard enough keeping the, we'll get em next year faith, suffering one embarrassing loss after another without throwing in 2 high draft picks that aren't good enough to dress for games. Folks wonder why some of us are so neg? 
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"Played in every game as a rookie, filling a role as a pass rush specialist and playing on many special teams units"
Hopefully the "Now for the rest of the story" you had mentioned was not you implying I was not telling the whole story.
Basically I said it and did you...the biggest thing hindering DV right now is that he cannot get playing time on this team via SPECIAL TEAMS...where I guarantee you if Bruschi didn't excel on special teams and didn't make it he would have been inactive a lot.
Yes, this does bother me and I left the question out there that we haven't seen him play to assess. Is this part of what is possible in the realm of a Dawghouse thing.
Does DV object in proving himself on special teams. Where we see Hall in his stead going all out...or we see Constanza in his stead going all out. Or we see 3A even out there on special teams. Do we even KNOW the details surrounding why DV is not out there on special teams. Is this an Attitude thing? Is it a skill set thing, Is it just a heart thing? We don't know.
But Bruschi got reps and earned reps - But Bruschi was a 3rd round pick not too far from DV...and still it took him how long to become a starter. Does it look good for DV not making ST? Not at all good. Doesn't prove anything until we know why and hopefully see him on the field earning more reps. Still sorry, I don't get it claiming a bust without seeing a player on the field...And claiming bust because he doesn't get out on the field just isn't enough REAL FOOTBALL to convince me. It does not mean he WILL or WILL NOT BE A BUST...I'm just saying how can any say that outside of just PURE SPECULATION and GUESTIMATION.
JMHO
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Go Browns!
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Quote:
It was him, but remember, day 2 begins in round 3 (actually round 2 now that Goddell has screwed it up even more). Most projections I saw for him were rounds 2-3.
I'm definitely not willing to call him a bust yet, though I am somewhat disappointed with his ability to get on the field.
This is how I thought it should have been done..first we needed a inside hammer at LB and a pass rusher..
Since the front 7 was lacking a impact player the need should have dictated getting a ready to go backer or tweener..DE who translates to a 34 OLB..or a OLB who can be used inside.
The problem is there were other tweeners who could have made the jump easier ..Matthews/Sintim/Brinkley ,and some others..
If the Browns were a solid team then projects like that are needed..but for a team starving to have immediate talent ,this was not the way to go.
Next they have overloaded the learning curve by make the kid learn two different positions from the one he was used to ..
I really think he's overwhelmed at this point..it will interesting to see if he's another player who never gets on the field and the Browns continue to bring in players to fill the spot.
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It was him, but remember, day 2 begins in round 3 (actually round 2 now that Goddell has screwed it up even more). Most projections I saw for him were rounds 2-3.
I'm definitely not willing to call him a bust yet, though I am somewhat disappointed with his ability to get on the field.
This is how I thought it should have been done..first we needed a inside hammer at LB and a pass rusher..
Since the front 7 was lacking a impact player the need should have dictated getting a ready to go backer or tweener..DE who translates to a 34 OLB..or a OLB who can be used inside.
The problem is there were other tweeners who could have made the jump easier ..Matthews/Sintim/Brinkley ,and some others..
If the Browns were a solid team then projects like that are needed..but for a team starving to have immediate talent ,this was not the way to go.
Next they have overloaded the learning curve by make the kid learn two different positions from the one he was used to ..
I really think he's overwhelmed at this point..it will interesting to see if he's another player who never gets on the field and the Browns continue to bring in players to fill the spot.
Sorry, but your wrong. You draft players who fit your schemes. Those players usually have physical and mental traits you like hence you draft them. Drafting for "now" is a joke. The Browns have gone by that mentallity for YEARS. It doesn't work. Not every draft pick is going to be golden their first year and early risers(like Mavs or McDonald) may not have much of a career later.
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You draft players who fit your schemes
Sorry you're out of touch.
The Browns don't draft many players who actually fit any scheme they're running nor are they very impactful..nor are they ready to play ..care to debate beyond saying:' Sorry you're wrong?"
Why don't you list from this past draft what players fit the Browns scheme?
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/14/09 11:12 AM.
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I think he was implying that attempting to draft simply for immediate talent was what past regimes did and it did not pan out, and that this one is not doing that. Savage was definitely known (at least on this board, would have to look back to validate that) for taking guys who would not fit Romeo's scheme.
JMHEarlyMorningReadingComprehension
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I've seen a lot of his so-called knowledgable posts..leaves a lot to be desired..
Browns have hardly ever drafted immediate talent..they draft players who have to be developed for a number of years..plus they draft players who don't fit or are really backups.
So he needs to say what he meant,which if I know a lot of the posters in here,he either won't/can't do.
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It's just speculation of course but I'm reasonably sure I know what went wrong. Everytime they sent the scout to the Aloha State he got busy knocking back parasol drinks and ogling girls on the beach. He lost all track of time, missed the games and he fudged the reports.I can't think of any other explanation. Hey it could happen.
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Quote:
If the Browns were a solid team then projects like that are needed..but for a team starving to have immediate talent ,this was not the way to go.
I wanted to give the pick of Veik a chance, but your statement there is the exact truth, and the same one we had when Butch took Chump Thompson.
We had so many more pressing needs than to take a project. There were so many more solid players at positions of greater need.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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True. I have hope for DV but that hope is dwindling every time I see him not playing at all.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
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Heldawg, I live in Boise. These guys are pretty hardcore about their football. If there is a guy on Hawaii or any other WAC team that can really bring it, we hear about it quick.
The talk show guys barely remembered who he was. I was going nuts asking people about this guy and nobody had any answers. If we had drafted Mouton at least I wouldn't have freaked.
I haven't seen him play, but the posters on this board used the terms "slow of thought, slow reacting, and slow movement" to describe his play in one game early in the season. Lets face it, we all waited year after year for Thompson to break out. It never happened and we are gun shy. We have a right to be.
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What is your opinion on why we didn't take Maualuga when he was gifted to us in the second?
I've never been able to figure that one out.
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The knock on Maualuga is that he's a bonehead and a search and destroy two down LB. He had the freedom in the USC system to freelance much like what Lavar Arrington had at Penn State.
Within Mangini's system a LB has to have a certain "je ne sais quoi". He has to be able to split the atom while making multiple reads, making the right fits and he has to be someone who know one has heard of.
Now...just me talking...he was by far the best player on the board at the time of the pick IMO. When that happens you draft said best player and get to work on the design of the defense and incorporate said player into said newly devised scheme. But what do I know...other than I regret getting the Browns scout drunk on Mai Tais last year.
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Everette Brown bothers me more than Malaluga
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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The knock on Maualuga is that he's a bonehead and a search and destroy two down LB. He had the freedom in the USC system to freelance much like what Lavar Arrington had at Penn State
Well he was interviewed but EM was turned off by it..and I read what turned him off...anyway Maua wasn't the only backer in the draft who could have provided impact..that was my point ,there were other choices.
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Hall of Famer
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I haven't seen him play, but the posters on this board used the terms "slow of thought, slow reacting, and slow movement" to describe his play in one game early in the season. Lets face it, we all waited year after year for Thompson to break out. It never happened and we are gun shy. We have a right to be.
Thompson at least made it to gameday because he was an athlete....Veikune never will....he's not only slow upstairs right now, in fact I think that's not his biggest problem, he simply is not athletically NFL material....guy ran a 4.9 40 and you expect him to add weight and play LB?  Good luck with that...
He will be remembered as the epitome of Mangini's failure though...trading a ProBowl-receiving TE for this bum
I said it right after the draft and I'll say it again now: this was Butcher's draft all over again:
Faine
NCutt
Morgan
C.Thompson
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,069
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,069 |
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He will be remembered as the epitome of Mangini's failure though...trading a ProBowl-receiving TE for this bum
What is it that people can't see this? I guess maybe you could remove the bum label, but other than that I would think this is simple common sense. How can you possibly argue that Mangini didn't get worked on this, the #5, and especially the Braylon deal? It amazes me to read their "reasoning."
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I said it right after the draft and I'll say it again now: this was Butcher's draft all over again:
Faine
NCutt
Morgan
C.Thompson
A scary, horrifying comparision.
What was Butch thinking? A center in the first who gets manhandled, a receiver in the second who everybody knew couldn't catch a football in college, and a second round linebacker that never really showed he could play linebacker.
It takes a lot to be, and remain, a Brown's fan.
Barry Bonds Check
Roger Clemens Check
Mark McGuire Check
Lance Armstrong Check
71-79 Steelers Taboo
(Lets pretend it didn't happen.)
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563 |
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How can you possibly argue that Mangini didn't get worked on this
If by this you mean the Kellen deal, well...getting a 2nd and a 5th for a one legged tight end that was a cancer in the locker room and couldn't block is pretty good.
He's doing a lot for the Bucs, at least....
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the #5
They got beat pretty bad on that deal. It was all dependent on Abe Elam and he has been a huge bust...Coleman is what he is and Ratliff was a throw in.
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and especially the Braylon deal?
You still haven't proven that Braylon isn't worth more than what we got, while Braylon in New York is proving me more and more right.
Getting a decent slot WR and a 3rd round pick was good value.
you had a good run Hank.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
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I said it right after the draft and I'll say it again now: this was Butcher's draft all over again:
Faine
NCutt
Morgan
C.Thompson
Butch Davis didn't draft Northcutt.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
you fail to mention that neither BE nor KW2 were going to come back without a huge contract that was more than they are worth.
Getiing something was better than nothing.
.... even agree that DV looks like a huge bust. Heldawg said it best;
when he stated that he had to be moved inside b/c he did not adjust outside.
I can't fault Mangini on the other picks for reasons I have stated several times.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
What was Butch thinking? A center in the first who gets manhandled, a receiver in the second who everybody knew couldn't catch a football in college, and a second round linebacker that never really showed he could play linebacker.
Botch was enamoured with one thing..SPEED..didn't matter if the player was a baller or a low-level backup..if he had speed he was the gift..
Manpolen seems to be enamoured with brains..
The good is he won't touch this upcoming draft,I don't care how good he can coach..
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Why is everyone so down on David
Veikune?
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