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Figured since all the other threads are veering off to different directions, this was as good a place as any........
Quote:
Posted by Mike Florio on December 15, 2009 9:47 AM ET
At a time when it appears that Mike Holmgren's path back to the Seattle front office might not be as clear as he'd like and that the Browns could be closing in on hiring Floyd Reese or Tim Ruskell, the man known as the Big Show has gone to Cleveland.
After weeks of rumblings that Holmgren could be asked to lead the long-suffering franchise out of its current mess (Thursday night notwithstanding), Holmgren spent Monday afternoon and evening meeting with the Browns, according to Pat McManamon of the Akron Beacon Journal.
In an interview earlier this month with KJR radio, Holmgren said that he wants to be "very active" in his new role with a new team (even if it's his old team, the Seahawks).
And while Holmgren explained that he doesn't think it's fair to fire a head coach after only one season, he seemed to leave the door slightly ajar for giving a guy the one-and-done treatment, possibly in the event that he's calling the shots in Cleveland.
"I never thought [firing a coach after one year] was fair, as a coach," Holmgren said. "As a management person, you might have to make . . . a very difficult decision that way, if in your opinion you think it's absolutely going in the wrong direction. But those situations are really few and far between."
So stay tuned. We have a feeling Eric Mangini will.
So in harmony with Lerner's wishes that the Czar at least consider keeping a 2nd year head coach, Holmgren would think about it.
However, it doesn't take Miss Cleo to read between the lines of his quotes and understand he'd most-likely fire Mangini the second he got into the building in order to install his own people...............
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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As he should,...and would have the power, to do so.
But I'm just wondering if they can do this together,...I guess not, but don't pretend to know enough to judge.
Holmgren is my choice, and if it is at the expense of Mangini, so be it. Whatever it takes to get it going the right way,...I'm running out of days. And this "thing" is gonna take a while, even with Holmgren in the dugout.
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Looks like Holmgren is in need of a little leverage and bargaining power in his negoitiations with the Seahawks.
Barry Bonds Check
Roger Clemens Check
Mark McGuire Check
Lance Armstrong Check
71-79 Steelers Taboo
(Lets pretend it didn't happen.)
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I literally JUST woke up to this on ESPN. He actually met with us which is good. I think the whole meeting publicly at Fahrenheit in front of so many people was one of their ideas (I'd speculate Holmgren attempting to drive up his price but that it pure speculation on my part) to get the word out. I'm not trying to get my hopes up in order to protect myself emotionally with Holmgren, but I consider this positive news. Schefter said he doesn't see him in Cleveland, either, but that's just another man's opinion. We will continue to stay tuned, though! 
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
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Though he would be my choice, if he's just playing games, then screw it. Like money is really an issue for him,...
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Quote:
Figured since all the other threads are veering off to different directions, this was as good a place as any........
So in harmony with Lerner's wishes that the Czar at least consider keeping a 2nd year head coach, Holmgren would think about it.
However, it doesn't take Miss Cleo to read between the lines of his quotes and understand he'd most-likely fire Mangini the second he got into the building in order to install his own people...............
First thought:
Holmgren is a Bill Walsh, west coast offense, kinda guy through and through.
Mangini's players are Parcell's, Belli's mold. Totally different beast.
Would Holmgren change his football worldview to keep Mangini?
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Like any smart man should do he's examining all his options. There's a chance the Seahawks would put a series of checks-and-balances on his power, where-as the Browns or another team could give him absolute and full control, in which case his choice becomes much more difficult.
Obviously Seattle is the heavy favorite because of his family and the state of the team. That doesn't mean it's a lock because we don't know how the 'Hawks would structure the FO.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I was thinking about Reese lately...he obviously likes the boom or bust players and takes lots of risks....don't know if that is what we need right now. He seems to know how to draft trenchmen though but can't spot a WR talent Holmgren's otoh just look very average....and I fear he's hust another coach drafting HIS players like Butcha and Mangini I'm simply underwhelmed by both...and still hope we somehow get Parcells or Heckert or Ozzie (yeah right) I even think Casserly would be better than both Holmgren and Reese...and I'm no Casserly fan by any means I don't envy Lerner for this decision....but getting EM fired would be a good start  (and I think any GM will do that...as he's a known running gag in league circles.....he gets his babysitter and loser buds to work for him but that's it...oh and don't start another Ryan-pimp now...he was on his way out of the league hated by Raiders-fans !! he IS a EM loser bud....and way overrated around here)
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Quote:
Holmgren's otoh just look very average....and I fear he's hust another coach drafting HIS players like Butcha and Mangini
Well of course he'd draft "his players." He's a firm believer in the WCO and would hire and draft accordingly. That's what I'd expect from any guy we hire.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Looks like Holmgren is in need of a little leverage and bargaining power in his negoitiations with the Seahawks.
How do you know he hasn't already exhausted talks with the Seahawks.. Or how about he's Dangling the Seahawks out there to get a better deal from the Browns..
Or better yet, maybe he's just reviewing ALL his options.. wouldn't you? I sure as hell would...
WOW, I just can't believe all the negativity.. Man, it's gonna be what it's gonna be..... 
This board has entirely too many "chicken littles" Look out, the sky is falling..... 
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Holmgren in Cleveland talking with Browns By Patrick McManamon Beacon Journal sports columnist POSTED: 09:28 a.m. EST, Dec 15, 2009 The Browns search for a new leader of football has taken a surprising — and potentially pleasant — turn. Mike Holmgren spent Monday afternoon and evening in Cleveland meeting with the Browns. He will spend today in Berea, as well. Holmgren is discussing joining the Browns as the team's football leader, the ''czar'' of football, for lack of a better word. It's a job he has not held in his career, but he brings strong credentials. As a coach, Holmgren won one Super Bowl with the Green Bay Packers and took the Seattle Seahawks to another. With the Seahawks, he initially held the job as coach and general manager, but the team asked him to give up the GM duties. Holmgren would guide the ship in Cleveland, where he would do one job and not two. His input and thinking would be the guiding force in the hiring of a GM, and in the future of coach Eric Mangini. Holmgren is almost universally respected in the league, and he is obviously interested in returning to the league after taking a year off. He retired as a coach after the 2009 season with the Seahawks. It's not known if Holmgren would accept a job immediately; he's a thoughtful guy who probably would want to think things through. But Browns owner Randy Lerner is working hard to convince Holmgren the Browns would be right for him. As for Mangini's future, many rumors and reports have trickled out of Berea that the win over the Pittsburgh Steelers guarantees that Mangini will be back in 2010. What the win did was make the Browns 2-11, and Lerner has to be aware of that reality. Lerner, though, will not force his will on the new football leader. The team's owner will have input into the coach, but he will not force a decision on someone he hires to run his football operations. Patrick McManamon can be reached at [Email]pmcmanamon@thebeaconjournal.com.[/Email] Read his blog at http://www.ohio.com/mcmanamon/. Follow Pat on Twitter @patmcmanamon. The Browns search for a new leader of football has taken a surprising — and potentially pleasant — turn. Mike Holmgren spent Monday afternoon and evening in Cleveland meeting with the Browns. He will spend today in Berea, as well. Holmgren is discussing joining the Browns as the team's football leader, the ''czar'' of football, for lack of a better word. It's a job he has not held in his career, but he brings strong credentials. As a coach, Holmgren won one Super Bowl with the Green Bay Packers and took the Seattle Seahawks to another. With the Seahawks, he initially held the job as coach and general manager, but the team asked him to give up the GM duties. Holmgren would guide the ship in Cleveland, where he would do one job and not two. His input and thinking would be the guiding force in the hiring of a GM, and in the future of coach Eric Mangini. Holmgren is almost universally respected in the league, and he is obviously interested in returning to the league after taking a year off. He retired as a coach after the 2009 season with the Seahawks. It's not known if Holmgren would accept a job immediately; he's a thoughtful guy who probably would want to think things through. But Browns owner Randy Lerner is working hard to convince Holmgren the Browns would be right for him. As for Mangini's future, many rumors and reports have trickled out of Berea that the win over the Pittsburgh Steelers guarantees that Mangini will be back in 2010. What the win did was make the Browns 2-11, and Lerner has to be aware of that reality. Lerner, though, will not force his will on the new football leader. The team's owner will have input into the coach, but he will not force a decision on someone he hires to run his football operations. http://www.ohio.com/sports/79304082.html His input and thinking would be the guiding force in the hiring of a GM, and in the future of coach Eric Mangini.
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
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Quote:
Quote:
Holmgren's otoh just look very average....and I fear he's hust another coach drafting HIS players like Butcha and Mangini
Well of course he'd draft "his players." He's a firm believer in the WCO and would hire and draft accordingly. That's what I'd expect from any guy we hire.
Of course....but I'm saying it didn't get the job done...his draft classes don't impress me
also, if we go the WCO route where does that leave Mack? He was drafted by EM to be the power-OL anchor..in the WCO he's not a good fit...add to that his still persistent adjustment call deficiencies and he was a 1 year waste....my guess is he would be put at G (which I think is his position anyway) but we'd still be looking for another C again after supposedly drafting our franchise C this year...
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I can't agree about Mack. I see a very quick center who has improved by leaps and bounds since the season started. Hell, he couldn't even shotgun snap, which has been corrected in the 2nd half of the season.
I think he can play in whatever system he's asked to play in. If I hadn't seen improvement I wouldn't think that way. He still has a long way to go in terms of figuring out exactly what he's looking at, as all rookie centers do.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Explain to me the difference between a WCO center and a power run center.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Quote:
Explain to me the difference between a WCO center and a power run center.
Thank you,...I was a center once (in a galaxy long ago and far away )
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Quote:
Explain to me the difference between a WCO center and a power run center.
WCO linemen need to be quicker and more agile than power linemen. That's a very severe summary, but accurate none-the-less.
As it pertains to Mack, he's a natural pull-and-seek player, so I think he's just fine in a WCO.
He isn't fast but he's quick, and that's all you need.
The issues he's having right now are typical for a rookie.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Gotta love when you see him downfield "hunting" for someone,...
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Quote:
Holmgren is my choice, and if it is at the expense of Mangini, so be it.
I agree.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
First thought:
Holmgren is a Bill Walsh, west coast offense, kinda guy through and through.
Mangini's players are Parcell's, Belli's mold. Totally different beast.
Would Holmgren change his football worldview to keep Mangini?
Holmgren is also a 4-3 defense guy (at least in Seattle he was)...
One other thought pertaining to the O-line comments above - Holmgren has never run a zone blocking scheme (at least not from what I recall)...
Last edited by clwb419; 12/15/09 12:10 PM.
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You damned aggressive jar-heads 
You have the same demeanor as one of my bartenders. He's a former Ranger, and he thinks and talks like a Ranger, hehe.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Explain to me the difference between a WCO center and a power run center.
What Toad said...I'm no WCO expert like him but I know that a rather smaller and quicker OL is preferred. I agree that Mack is a good pulling OL but I had doubts if he'd be perceived as maybe too big for a WCO C?
Also (and that's a question to anyone who knows), isn't line calls even more crucial in the WCO? and that's where he seems to struggle most...
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Quote:
Holmgren is also a 4-3 defense guy (at least in Seattle he was)...
Holmgren has always used the 4-3 defense (SF, GB, Seattle), but he also has always focussed on the offense and had people in charge of the defense.
I sincerely hope that he allows Ryan to keep control of the defense and keep the 3-4.
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Quote:
Quote:
Explain to me the difference between a WCO center and a power run center.
What Toad said...I'm no WCO expert like him but I know that a rather smaller and quicker OL is preferred. I agree that Mack is a good pulling OL but I had doubts if he'd be perceived as maybe too big for a WCO C?
Also (and that's a question to anyone who knows), isn't line calls even more crucial in the WCO? and that's where he seems to struggle most...
Agree with all that,...so, we gotta work with him.  Or, find a coach who can.
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Well, I can't say I'm a WCO expert. Thanks though.  I have spent too much time over the years examining it out of curiosity though. 
Yeah, the center has to make quick and correct line calls. It isn't that much more difficult in the WCO, but because it's not a simple "hat on a hat" blocking scheme, the center has to be quicker and smarter than a mauling center.
Regarding your thought about his size hurting him for the WCO, I might agree, except there's an X-factor: Our division.
Fraley was an excellent WCO center. He was quick and nimble and most importantly very, very smart. He still is very smart. His big problem was that he can't handle the Ngata's and Hampton's or even Tank Johnson's of the world. So while Mack may appear a little big and heavy for the WCO, I think that kind of bulk is required in our division.
I'd point to Faine and O'hara as examples. They were pushed around and bullied during their time here by our divisional opponents. They didn't have success until they left.
I'd be more concerned about Mack as a WCO center if he wasn't nimble. You don't have to be fast, but you do have to be quick, and you do have to be smart. I don't know if he's smart enough yet. Fraley had to make the line calls earlier in the year because Mack is a rookie. Hell, Mack may not be making the line calls right now. I don't know since before the ball is snapped, my eyes have been on the QB. I only shift away from him once the ball is snapped (which is how I watch the games when I'm trying to evaluate. When I just want to enjoy the game, I just follow the football ).
To be clear, I'm not saying Mack is going to be good, or even that he's ideally suited to the WCO. He has improved, but he has some holes in his game. For his size, he's not the drive-blocker one would expect. That kinda bums me out. However, he is big enough to be able to hold his ground. That's a plus, and all that's required in the WCO.
Sorry, I'm rambling. Like you guys haven't seen that before
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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You are correct, he has always put more focus on the offense, and has done very well in that regard. It makes me wonder if Colt McCoy would be our second round pick - I can see him being a successful qb in the WCO (accurate, good decision maker, mobile) and he seems to fit into the mold of a Hasselbeck type guy IMO...
I like Ryan, so I agree with you. The question becomes who does he hire as a HC if he removes Mangini? And secondarily, will that new guy keep Ryan. I can see where Gruden would.
A quick comment on Mangini - I think even if Holmgren takes the job, that Mangini keeps his job next season. Holmgren has stated that he doesn't think its fair for a coach to only have one season. I don't recall the details of the statement, but that is a good enough summary. Being a coach, I wonder if he gives the guy another year...
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In Holmgren's most recent comments, he actually stated that as a coach he didn't like the idea of being yanked after one year, but as management, you have to make the best decisions possible.
So he's essentially saying that while he'd consider keeping a guy, he'd also consider not keeping him.
I think what people may be overlooking is how this thing could be setup. Holmgren might not be the GM. He may hire a GM and let that guy have some influence.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I'm wondering if Holmgren is "set" on doing both,...GM/Coach ?
I don't pretend to know, nor stating it's a good idea.
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Wow. Lerner was "blown away" in his interview with Mangini. They'll need some diapers and a mop on hand for his meeting w/ Holmgren.
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From what I've seen,Mack is going to be a good linemen in due time.He would be one of few players that should worry about a scheme change.
People get way too hung up on players fitting schemes,good players are good players,and good coaches adjust to fit a players strengtths.
Hlmgren drafted Hutchinson,he fit well in Seattle's WCO and Minny's power run game.
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Haven't read or heard those Toad, thanks for the update.
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Quote:
Wow. Lerner was "blown away" in his interview with Mangini. They'll need some diapers and a mop on hand for his meeting w/ Holmgren.
Now that's funny. Disturbing mental image, but funny
Oorah...........No, Holmgren isn't going to be a coach. He just wants the FO gig.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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"I think what people may be overlooking is how this thing could be setup. Holmgren might not be the GM. He may hire a GM and let that guy have some influence. "
Not sure I understand the purpose if that's what happens. So you hire him for his vast football knowledge and experience, have HIM hire a GM then step away and watch ? Why not just ask him who to hire then send him packin ?
If he hires ME as a GM I don't want him making MY hires or draft decisions..
I'd rather see Holmgren as GM and USE that experience for every decision we make.
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I've said this before in other discussions over the years but am I the only one who thinks a WCO just isn't a terribly good idea in the AFC North? Especially with the way the Steelers and Ravens play D, with stunts and confusion tactics, highly physical in the middle of the field. We'd need to have an exceptional QB and as others have mentioned a pretty different OL and reciever corps. THe key is a high percentage of passing plays, timing routes and getting the ball off super quick and I just have my doubts about that in late november and december in the AFC North. I'm no expert but it just doesn't seem like it makes a lot of sense.
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Interesting..I'm waiting till something is concrete..because I'm certain MH is going to have dinner with other teams..and I wonder myself whats up in Seattle.
Plus some other names should surface soon.
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Keep in mind there are several "if's" in this entire thing.
So IF Holmgren isn't the actual GM but hires one, he will have input into what happens. He'll simply let the GM handle more of the day-to-day things with many of the final decisions being a consensus effort or with Holmgren having final veto power.
It could go a lot of ways.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Good question...Toad?
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Quote:
Keep in mind there are several "if's" in this entire thing.
So IF Holmgren isn't the actual GM but hires one, he will have input into what happens. He'll simply let the GM handle more of the day-to-day things with many of the final decisions being a consensus effort or with Holmgren having final veto power.
It could go a lot of ways.
Sounds too much like a democracy to me Long straw wins ? Lerner gets the tie breaker ?
I still like the idea of letting us make the decisions on this board for draft picks.. Probably would be in the SB already.
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The weather in Philly isn't dramatically different than AFCN, and the SCO works very well there. If we have the right QB, with crisp route running WRs, I think it could work.
As per defenses, the Tampa 2 is what was built to defend the WCO best. Sure, other defenses can also defend it, but the Tampa 2 is what was made to defend the WCO.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
I've said this before in other discussions over the years but am I the only one who thinks a WCO just isn't a terribly good idea in the AFC North? Especially with the way the Steelers and Ravens play D, with stunts and confusion tactics, highly physical in the middle of the field. We'd
Actually there are hybrids of that offense..even Philly(like to watch their games) uses a variation of it at times..so in a sense yes it could work in the AFCN...as it looks now there are a lot of gimicky schemes coming out ,the hot one being the Wildcat..
With defenses trying to stuff the box ,you have to use more than a conventional type offense..
BTW the Browns can use a zone blocking scheme ,which worked well for them in 07..however they will need to upgarde the RG/RT position with some athletic linemen..not the plodders currently trying to imitate linemen.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/15/09 12:54 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
BTW the Browns can use a zone blocking scheme ,which worked well for them in 07..however they will need to upgarde the RG/RT position with some athletic linemen..not the plodders currently trying to imitate linemen.
I agree. Steiny and Mack would work best in a zone scheme due to their quickness. JT is dominant no matter the scheme.
And we have to fix the right side either way, so we might as well play to the rest of the OLs strength.
#gmstrong
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