DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren meets with Browns brass

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I've said this before in other discussions over the years but am I the only one who thinks a WCO just isn't a terribly good idea in the AFC North? Especially with the way the Steelers and Ravens play D, with stunts and confusion tactics, highly physical in the middle of the field. We'd need to have an exceptional QB and as others have mentioned a pretty different OL and reciever corps. THe key is a high percentage of passing plays, timing routes and getting the ball off super quick and I just have my doubts about that in late november and december in the AFC North. I'm no expert but it just doesn't seem like it makes a lot of sense.

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Please take my explanation not in a derogatory light, but rather as simply two guys having a discussion. I tend to save the insulting tone for guys like Biter

It's my opinion that there are great misconceptions about the WCO. It's often viewed as a "soft" offense because it's not considered a "power running" team, and because the offense is very intricate, leading to the idea that a "finesse offense" isn't powerful enough to win in our division. There's also been a belief over the years that the WCO is a passing offense so the running game takes a backseat. That also isn't true.

Where to start...............Consider that many of the WCO teams that exist are able to run the ball effectively.

Let's take Green Bay. Over the years in weather worse than ours, Green Bay has pumped out 1000 yard rusher after 1000 yard rusher. Ryan Grant was a nobody who ran for 1200 yards last year and will exceed that number this year. The simple and easy excuse would be because the Packers have a great offensive line.

As most know, the Packers do NOT have a good offensive line.

Before Grant, Ahman Green was a perennial 1000 yard back. Before him, Edgar Bennet......a fullback........gained 1000 yards. That all started with the Packers installed the WCO.

Take Seattle. Shaun Alexander won an MVP (I think, I could be wrong) and had numerous 1000 yard seasons there.

We all know what Peterson is doing in Minny.

Examine the Eagles. Brian Westbrook's little self ran for 1200 and 1300 yards in consecutive years while also catching 167 balls during that time.

Then there's all the things Shanahan did with the WCO during his time in Denver. He made 1000 yard backs out of players nobody had ever heard of year after year.

So we've established that the WCO does in fact have a run-producing factor.

As to your question regarding whether it would stand up against the defenses in our division, keep in mind that the Eagles have put up big numbers in a division that featured really good defenses over the years with the Giants and the Cowboys.

It's not really about going up against stout defenses because it's about execution.

Now, here's why I've always believed the WCO would be great for our division.......

Keep in mind one of the fundamental principals of the WCO is a timing-based offense where the QB gets the ball out quick. When your offense is based on that, defenses have less time to react. It's one of the reasons Rodgers has great success despite playing behind a crap-line: He can get the ball out quickly to his reads before the defense can get to him. Now he isn't afforded the time to get to his 3rd check very often which is why he's getting hammered.

I won't hurt anyone's eyes even more by posting all the offensive outputs and rankings of WCO teams over the last two decades. I've done it before and it's some damned dry reading, hehehe. But the reality is that WCO offenses have consistently been at the top of the rankings in terms of virtually all offensive categories.

It works because it's intricate and would take some time for a QB to absorb, but once it's installed and is running on all cylinders it's an offense that's damned hard to stop.

Even Jason Campbell's "dumb" self is playing well in it

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The weather in Philly isn't dramatically different than AFCN, and the SCO works very well there. If we have the right QB, with crisp route running WRs, I think it could work.

As per defenses, the Tampa 2 is what was built to defend the WCO best. Sure, other defenses can also defend it, but the Tampa 2 is what was made to defend the WCO.

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The weather in Philly isn't dramatically different than AFCN, and the SCO works very well there. If we have the right QB, with crisp route running WRs, I think it could work.

As per defenses, the Tampa 2 is what was built to defend the WCO best. Sure, other defenses can also defend it, but the Tampa 2 is what was made to defend the WCO.

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Correct, and correct.

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Cleveland Browns wining and dining Mike Holmgren
By Tony Grossi
December 15, 2009, 11:22AM


Getty ImagesIf Mike Holmgren is to become part of the solution to the Browns' woes, he's going to have to overlook (or ignore) the franchise's recent history of how it deals with executives in the front office, says Bud Shaw.

Updated at 11:52


BEREA -- Not only is Mike Holmgren continuing a visit with the Browns today, but The Plain Dealer has learned that Bob LaMonte, Holmgren's long-time friend and agent, is with him.

That means the Browns likely are negotiating to wrap up a deal to make Holmgren the Browns' head of football operations.

LaMonte is known to get involved with his many coaching and executive clients only when a deal is near.

Holmgren was the No. 1 choice of Lerner to revamp his football operations a year ago, but Holmgren decided to take the 2009 season off after retiring as Seattle coach.

Browns spokesman Bill Bonsiewicz confirmed Holmgren's visit, which included a very public dinner with Lerner and others at a local restaurant.

"He is visiting the Browns," Bonsiewicz said. "He got here (Monday) and is here today. He was invited by Randy Lerner and accepted the invitation. That's all we've got to say at this time."

Bonsiewicz said he did not know how long Holmgren would be in town and whether a deal is being negotiated.

Holmgren coached in Seattle for 10 years and in Green Bay for seven, taking both teams to the Super Bowl and winning once with the Packers. He retired from coaching after the 2008 season and has decided he wants to run a club's front office rather than continue coaching.


Lerner has been mum on his plans other than to say he wants to hire a "serious, credible leader" to ravamp his team's beleaguered football operations.

Lerner recently added high-profile local lawyer Fred Nance to his organization as general counsel. In an interview with The Plain Dealer, Nance said, "I think there are good things to come in Berea."

© 2009 cleveland.com. All rights reserved

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Wouldn't that make a nice xmas gift, if by the end of the week we get reports that MH is the new GM/Pres of the Browns?

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Wouldn't that make a nice xmas gift, if by the end of the week we get reports that MH is the new GM/Pres of the Browns?

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Maybe I'm mixing quotes from the article or from other posters......isn't he here to maybe sign a deal to be the Czar to then hire his own GM?

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Maybe I'm mixing quotes from the article or from other posters......isn't he here to maybe sign a deal to be the Czar to then hire his own GM?

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BEREA -- Not only is Mike Holmgren continuing a visit with the Browns today, but The Plain Dealer has learned that Bob LaMonte, Holmgren's long-time friend and agent, is with him.

That means the Browns likely are negotiating to wrap up a deal to make Holmgren the Browns' head of football operations.

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I wonder how much ownership of the team LaMonte is asking for

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I wonder how much ownership of the team LaMonte is asking for

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Oh you didn't just go there

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Per Mort, Holmgren "hopes to have his future clarified and secured by Christmas."

Mort also says that, if Holmgren takes the job in Cleveland, coach Eric Mangini would instantly occupy a position of "considerable jeopardy."

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Add this nugget..

Holmgren's Christmas deadline likely is a message to Lerner
Posted by Mike Florio on December 15, 2009 12:51 PM ET PFT
Amid multiple reports that former Packers and Seahawks coach Mike Holmgren is meeting with the Browns, Chris Mortensen of ESPN offers up a nugget that could, as a practical matter, limit Holmgren's options.

Per Mort, Holmgren "hopes to have his future clarified and secured by Christmas."

Christmas, as my son reminded me this morning, is ten days away.

So with the only current G.M. vacancies in Cleveland and Seattle and the only open coaching job in Buffalo, there aren't many places where the Big Show will raise the curtain.

Since he's leaning toward a front-office job, the primary options are the Browns and the Seahawks. Though there's a current vibe that the Seahawks might not really want Holmgren back, Cleveland owner Randy Lerner is likely poised to do whatever it takes to get him.

Our guess, then, is that Mort's report contains a message to Lerner: The window is open, and in ten days it'll close.

Mort also says that, if Holmgren takes the job in Cleveland, coach Eric Mangini would instantly occupy a position of "considerable jeopardy."

In other words, Mangini could end up being the first head coach to be dumped in consecutive years since Ray Rhodes, who was fired by the Eagles after the 1998 season and by the Packers, where he succeeded Holmgren, after the 1999 season

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Here's the link for that little tid bit.

It appears that all of this is coming together. I thought for sure when Seattle fired their GM, Holmgren going to the hawks was a done deal. Consider me surprised.

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I wonder how much ownership of the team LaMonte is asking for

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Someone's getting a lump of coal in his stocking this year!

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I wonder how much ownership of the team LaMonte is asking for

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Oh you didn't just go there

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And he went there without answering the question!!!

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Question:

Who did we interview to satisfy the Rooney Rule?

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I wonder how much ownership of the team LaMonte is asking for

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Oh you didn't just go there

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And he went there without answering the question!!!

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Question:

Who did we interview to satisfy the Rooney Rule?

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Possibly Jim Brown?

Didn't we interview Mel Tucker last year to satisfy the coaching Rooney Rule. This must interview minority canidates for general manager one is new to this year (isn't it?), but does it apply to Football Czar/President?

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