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Thank you..I was all confused on why Paul Allen would want to work for Snyder. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Glad I could help 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Dang, it must be the high octane coffee.
OK, Lets stretch a little. Randys other life is one where people pay 130 million for a player who can get injured (actually he currently is).
CEO's of billion dollar companies make bonuses of twice the money we are talking about for Holmgren.
You guys were throwing around some talk about 10% ownership a few days ago, which would result in a lot more dough than just paying him 8-10 a year.
I think we can assume that if Randy is enamored with the Walrus, and is convinced he is the guy, HE WILL PAY WHAT IT TAKES.
Guys, there is a cold, windy, grey tax that applies here. He's got a house in Santa Cruz. There are two teams nearby. He is settled in Seattle (although grey and rainy it is still considered a fairly nice place to live). Although I hope that his main motivation is to bring back the Cleveland Browns, I think that Randy will have to put "generational" money on the table for him to come. JMHO
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Quote:
I think that Randy will have to put "generational" money on the table for him to come. JMHO
That's what a few of us have said from the start. IF he is RL's guy go get him with whatever means necessary!
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Legend
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Quote:
Perhaps it was $8-10 million over 3 years... that would make more sense.. or even 2 years......
That could be I suppose...
But according to this,, Grossi is saying up to 10 million a YEAR....
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2009/12/will_cleveland_browns_have_com.html
I really don't know where Grossi gets this stuff but I honestly wouldn't put too much faith in it's accuracy.. Basically, what your suggesting seems more in line...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Now he hires Paul Allen
Not trying to be picky,, Paul Allen is the owner of Seattle.. Bruce Allen is the guy that just replaced Carrato with the Redskins....
I didn't know that Bruce Allen and Grudin were tight..
Sorry, brain fart about the Paul Allen thing. That would be something.
I'm pretty sure Gruden was Bruce Allen's guy in both Oakland and Tampa. And they supposedly work well together.
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Legend
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Daman...Here is the entire story...
Cleveland Browns: We haven't talked money with Mike Holmgren
By Tony Grossi
December 17, 2009, 10:06AM
Updated at 10:30 a.m.
BEREA, Ohio -- Browns spokesman Bill Bonsiewicz confirmed the team is continuing discussions with Mike Holmgren, but has not talked money with the would-be football czar.
"We had a productive meeting over the course of couple days. We agreed to communicate again in the coming days. I can tell you the one thing we have not discussed to this point is money," Bonsiewicz said.
It has been widely reported that Holmgren's pricetag could be as high as $10 million a year.
One possible roadblock to a formal offer is the Rooney Rule, which requires teams to interview a minority candidate before the position can be filled.
"We're aware of the Rooney Rule and have been in contact with the league office about it," Bonsiewicz said.
He would not say whether the Browns have interviewed a minority candidate or if the club has other interviews scheduled.
Meanwhile, a surprise opening in Washington has re-circulated Holmgren's name.
The abrupt resignation this morning of Vinny Cerrato as executive vice president of football operations of the Washington Redskins fueled immediate speculation that Holmgren could be heading there to replace him.
Then it shifted to Mike Shanahan.
But now Jay Glazer of FOXSports.com has reported that Cerrato's replacement will be Bruce Allen, the former Tampa Bay and Oakland general manager whose father, George, was a legendary figure as Redskins coach in the 1970s.
Allen teamed with Jon Gruden with both Tampa Bay and Oakland, but Gruden told The Plain Dealer last month that he intended to stay out of coaching for at least two more seasons and continue as ESPN's "Monday Night Football" lead analyst.
If Allen indeed is the choice of Redskins owner Dan Snyder, it means that the Browns still have no apparent competition for the services of Holmgren.
Holmgren left Berea on Tuesday night after two days of visiting and negotiating with the Browns to be their head of football operations. The Browns reportedly offered Holmgren the job, but Holmgren has not acted on the offer.
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2nd String
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Here is how I look at it:
1.) Who cares how much Lerner wants to pay Holmgrem. It's his money and does not account against the Franchise's Operating Cap.
2.) For everyone that brings up Parcell's Contract, you need to re-read his contract with Miami. Would you rather pay a guy 3-4 Million a year, and allow him to leave and collect the rest of his Contract at any time he wants (Since the Team was Sold) or pay a guy 8-10 Million for 5 Years to ensure he will stay for the entire length of his contract? If you want stability, Lerner is going after it.
3.) Cleveland vs Miami : Come on, it's 18 Degrees outside, has anyone checked the weather in Miami. These guys are already millionaires, it's just a matter of the little things that are out of an Owner's control. If you were offered the same amount of money for a job anywhere in the world, where would you go? I doubt many of you say Cleveland or a place that is cold.
4.) If you low ball offer Holmgrem, you give a chance of other teams scooping him up by a better offer. A Big Offer usually means, sign with us, NOW. Can't say we'll be making this offer again in a few weeks.
5.) A Big Offer also gets a LOT more potential "Czars" interested, hell for 8-10 Million, who wouldn't be?
6.) Lastly, you either want to moan and complain about every thing Lerner does, because you can't stand Lerner maybe doing something right. We want a winner here in Cleveland, and don't really care what the cost of that is, just freaking win! So Lerner is shelling out money and now the complaints come out. Go figure.
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Legend
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Ohhh,, Good article,, thanks Mac.. Good catch, Isn't grossi funny.. First this: Quote:
"We had a productive meeting over the course of couple days. We agreed to communicate again in the coming days. I can tell you the one thing we have not discussed to this point is money," Bonsiewicz said.
Then later he says:
Quote:
Holmgren left Berea on Tuesday night after two days of visiting and negotiating with the Browns to be their head of football operations. The Browns reportedly offered Holmgren the job, but Holmgren has not acted on the offer.
The Browns are saying Money wasn't discussed... And, the offer he didn't receive isn't being acted on 
All in the same article,,,,LOL
Here's a piece of news that if you want, you can read it to mean,, we're going for Holmgren and we're trying to work through the Rooney Rule issues..
Quote:
"We're aware of the Rooney Rule and have been in contact with the league office about it," Bonsiewicz said.
At least that's the way I'm reading it..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
The Browns are saying Money wasn't discussed... And, the offer he didn't receive isn't being acted on
All in the same article,,,,LOL
Here's a piece of news that if you want, you can read it to mean,, we're going for Holmgren and we're trying to work through the Rooney Rule issues..
Daman...I see the article was updated, so it may have changed from when you first posted it.
As for the money part..."officially" the subject of money did not come up between Holmgren and the Browns.
..."UNofficially", everyone knows that Holmgren left Cleveland knowing he would be the highest paid football executive in the NFL..if the Browns were to offer him an "official" contact. .. 
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Can we complain about everything that he does until he does something right?
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Legend
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No doubt in my mind either.. he's gotten an offer with a wink and nod
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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5.) A Big Offer also gets a LOT more potential "Czars" interested, hell for 8-10 Million, who wouldn't be?
I wonder if that wasn't Cerrato's thinking when he abruptly resigned in Washington, hoping to get into the mix if Holmgrem doesn't go for Cleveland.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Legend
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Mac....we aren't speculating...actually we are reading all the Speculating done by Bozo's no less.
Stuff like we made Holmgren an OFFER (presumedly) presumed on what? That Randy is a Dolt!!! No way we made an offer again, without complying to the Rooney Rule. And for them to report this all they are doing is making it hard for us to have an interview with a Minority candidate. Cause although its good experience it also is not what anyone serious would be looking to be...a token interview! We can Assume most minorities actually respect the Rooney rule and don't wish to belittle it with TOKEN interviews. Well thanks Bozo media - and sometimes I wonder if its their intentions to make our lives miserable! 
Holmgren...everyone here is too focused on his HC philosophies of scheme to utilize and not on the philosophy of the making of a football TEAM!!!
I know a long time ago (believe when Butch was hired) I did a thread regarding Ron Wolf and his philosophies on building a team. I implored posters to educate themselves and read his book: THE PACKER WAY!
Well guess what influences Holmgren has regarding the role that he is now embarking on. Not that of a HC but that of a Builder of a team. And he will be very similar to the ideals and concepts of Ron Wolf.
Is the firing of Mangini an automatic.
I cannot predict this. Me personally as a fan would love to see the TWO take the bare foundation that has been laid out and run together with it.
Here let me take one little excerpt out of the book where Wolf describes about the 4 C's...why it was called that I don't know:
Expect Certain Devotion
Expect Certain Dedication
Expect Certain Work Ethic
Expect Certain Results
But in coming up with this concept he explains his situation and what he had to do:
When I took over, the Packers had stability. But it was the wrong kind. I twas lax in demands and comforting in its judgments. Thin this form of stability, employees functions in a safe zone that shields them from job stress and rarely requires extra effort. This environment is characterized by its tendency to produce lots of employees with long tenures. The organization is top-heavy with people who've been around for years and believes the business owes them a living. Dismissing them is virtually impossible, if considered at all. The result is the equivalent of a mellow song. It sounds good and feels good, bit it generates no excitement, no message. That was the Packers for too many years after Lombardi. A nice sont that didn't offend or inspire.
Now although we have the history here...realistically this is a new team still searching for its identity.
Does Mangini and what his philosophies are mirror the Packer of Old or the direction of the new process of establishing the 4 C's.
Is Mangini "LAX" in his demands? Isn't much of the 4 C's exactly what Mangini has been trying to install here as a Character of the TEAM. And this 4 C theory is not just the function and work ethic of the Players n coaches but the entire staff at hand.
Is it possible that we have just seen the initial results of exactly what Ron Wolf described as there were many internal employees that he fired when he came in.
Does that not sound like exactly what Wolf was talking about.
See I think it is possible that Holmgren and Mangini could be of closer mind than anyone here is giving credit to. People forget its not HC Holmgren that we are looking to hire...where he's going to run the O n D and mold it. Ron Wolf if he did that, he would not have built the WINNER THAT HE DID. He let the HC who had the same ETHICS as he dictate what O, what D would be utilized. But its the 4 C's that Holmgren will be fixed on...not the X's n O's.
Again I know I'm hoping as a fan more than making a "PREDICTION" - I want continuity...although not perfect Mangini has done a lot that none have done before him. I'd like to see Holmgren who I believe has more in common with Mangini than anyone here thinks. Can make the PLAN be better and Succeed to reach its GOAL!!!
Instead of speculating...how bout READ THE BOOK! and maybe learn a little more of what to expect if, IF!! Holmgren gets hired
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
Quote:
5.) A Big Offer also gets a LOT more potential "Czars" interested, hell for 8-10 Million, who wouldn't be?
I wonder if that wasn't Cerrato's thinking when he abruptly resigned in Washington, hoping to get into the mix if Holmgrem doesn't go for Cleveland.
florfan...It was reported that Cerrato and Snyder recently took a scouting trip together, checking out college QBs...and there has been no sign that this move was about to happen.
Keep in mind, we are talking about Dan Snyder, who seems to be the type and has a reputation, to move quickly when he decides which direction he wants to go.
I doubt that Cerrato suddenly decided to resign...I would believe Snyder suddenly decided to fire Cerrato though! It does look as though Snyder may have had this deal in the works for while, firing Cerrato and hiring Allen in one quick move.
Was Cerrato aware of what was about to happen?...Maybe we will find out once the media gets to digging a little.
I read story a week or so ago, that once the GM/Coaching carousel started to move, it would start a chain reaction that could force teams to make their personnel/coaching moves sooner, rather than later.
Hopefully, Holmgren will take the Browns job ASAP, allowing him to get a jump on hiring the best, most talented people to fill the Browns needs.
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It was reported that Cerrato and Snyder recently took a scouting trip together, checking out college QBs
Uh oh....Cerrato didn't have the same man-crush on Tebow that Snyder does 
#gmstrong
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eotab, you put into words my exact thoughts on the matter.
Since our rebirth, we've lacked the character and work ethic that Mangini has set out to build. I don't want anymore players on this team that whine, mope, or give up when the going gets tough. I don't care how much talent they have. I'd rather have someone that'll buckle their chin-strap, get pissed, and play even harder... even if they have lesser natural talent. Maybe it's just the Cleveland, blue-collar mentality in me, but I love players like that. Like him, I think we need that in order to build the right team culture for a long-term, successful franchise.
And I don't think it's completely out of the question that someone such a MH would come in, see how Mangini is running things, see the kind of players he's been trying to bring in, listen to his overall philosophy on how the team should work and agree with him... especially if we see palpable, consistant improvement throughout the final weeks of the season.
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Maybe Holmgren is just the first of several big names to come through Berea and Randy will ultimately choose the best one. But when you add up the supposed money on the table, Holmgren's desire to know 'by Christmas' deadline, and the lack of available jobs open to him right now... it just doesn't make sense for us to throw everything but the kitchen sink at him right now. We are in a much better position at the bargaining table than Holmgren is. Thoughts??
Gonna attempt to affect a paradigm shift regarding your thinking, Kardiac.
Holmgren is the guy whom the Browns braintrust have identified as the guy they want.
Now I believe in your mind you've fixed Lerner as the singular man atop a pyramid structure where Lerner and only Lerner is making the decision to go after Homgren.
The actual reality is that Lerner speaks with numerous people who know more about the football world than he does. Simple common sense dictates that people like Accorsi have given their input and helped Lerner frame his decision.
The point is that there were and are numerous candidates out there, but that Holmgren did NOT just look at Holmgren with the tunnel-vision turned on, neglecting or ignoring all other potentials.
What's happened is that Lerner knows Seattle is in play and wants to do what he could to secure the man his think-tank inner-circle identified as the candidate best suited to what Lerner wants for the organization.
Regarding your questions of "bargaining power" keep in mind that haggling over a million or two per year means nothing to Lerner. It would make absolutely no sense to wine-and-dine Holmgren only to come in with a low-ball offer. This isn't the same as negotiating for a car. In order to secure your guy, you make virtually your best offer in order to "WOW!" the guy, especially when..............and this is the REAL key.............you're trying to overpower his desire to stay on the west coast. Remember, Holmgren's heart is out west. He wants to work close to home. All things being equal, he wants the Seattle gig and it isn't close. So in terms of "bargaining power" we aren't bidding against the other jobs that don't yet exist. As you noted that wouldn't make any sense. We're bargaining against a man's desire to be somewhere else. In essence, we're trying to overwhelm his loyalties with a huge sum of money and power, so try not to think of this in terms of the market outside of the dynamic of Cleveland and Seattle. We're doing nothing more than bidding against his desire to stay on the west coast while simultaneously putting our best foot forward. Squabbling over a million or two from Lerner would make him look terribly cheap.
One last thing man: Quote:
Talking heads are speculating at best that he would love to remain in Seattle, where his daughters live and he has a home and all that. And that makes sense, naturally. But there has been no proof of that being stated by Holmgren anywhere.
Holmgren has made it quite clear what his intentions would be. These are his exact words: Quote:
And that's why I've tried to keep an open mind, not get too emotional about it ... This is not news: my family is there, I have a strong attachment to the city and my time there. But I also know things change. You never know. The organization has to feel you're the right fit.
There's no need to try reading between the lines there. That's as close as one can get without actually saying "Yes, I badly want the Seattle job because my family is there."
Lerner is being proactive here. He and his brain-trust have identified the guy they want. They are going after him aggressively because they are trying to pry him away from Seattle.
There's one more factor here: Time. Holmgren wants a deal done quickly. When you know this, you don't dally around. You go after him with virtually your best offer.
Lerner is doing this right. We don't know if Holmgren is the best cadidate or not, but there isn't a "can't miss" guy out there. The 'Skins have hired Bruce Allen who has more experience in terms of managing a team, but his track record is also sketchy. All the guys out there have a wart or two. Lerner simply has identified his target and is going after him quickly because of the circumstances.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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You do know Holmgren is the one sending out "info" to the press eh? That makes everything said about contracts and interest a lie.
Now I understand why your name is "spoonfed." Where you live they don't give you forks or knives. 
Last edited by Referee2; 12/18/09 11:04 AM.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Something about that animation creeps me out...
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Mac....we aren't speculating...actually we are reading all the Speculating done by Bozo's no less.
Stuff like we made Holmgren an OFFER (presumedly) presumed on what? That Randy is a Dolt!!! No way we made an offer again, without complying to the Rooney Rule.
EO...some are speculating but are doing so based on the "inaccurate" speculation being reported in the media.
Time for everyone to slow down...
...coaching philosophy, not important to me right now.
...Mangini staying or gone...not important to me right now.
I can't allow myself to do much speculating until we actually get Holmgren signed. It just seems to be a waste of brain power, until we know for sure Holmgren is our Czar.
I read this morning that Holmgren met with Mangini for about an hour during his visit. I have given "some thought" to the idea of Mangini as HC only, with the help and support of Holmgren, might be workable.
But then again, I'm guilty of getting the cart ahead of the horse, by even allowing myself to think about Holmgren retaining Mangini...
The waiting is tough...sure would be a great, "early" Christmas present...early as in "ASAP"... 
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It would be quite the opportunity for Mangini should he be retained.
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Good news: Holmgren, Browns to talk again BEREA, Ohio -- Mike Holmgren and the Cleveland Browns will talk again, and money has yet to come up in the discussions. Browns spokesman Bill Bonsiewicz says the second conversation will occur in the coming days, but offered no specifics. He did say the team and Holmgren have not talked salary, despite reports that Holmgren could command upwards of $10 million a year to run the Browns' football operations. Before Holmgren can be hired, the Browns would have to interview a minority candidate to comply with the NFL's "Rooney Rule." Bonsiewicz said the Browns have been in contact with the league to be certain the team is clear on the rule. He would not say if the Browns already have interviewed a minority candidate -- or any other, besides Holmgren. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4751119
you had a good run Hank.
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Reading between the lines, this gives Seattle their window of opportunity here. They have until the Browns interview a minority candidate (if they haven't already) and until Holmgren flies back out for the final meeting.
Tick tock......tick tock..
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Now I understand why your name is "spoonfed." Where you live they don't give you forks or knives.
But I thought we weren't supposed to feed the trolls!
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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I think it's safe to say that if Lerner pays for his flight, his hotel and his meals that it is officially a done deal. 
yebat' Putin
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Agreed, DC. I also think the talks with the league about the Rooney rule are somewhat telling. I hate to read too much into something, but that really makes it seem like Holmgren's the guy and they just want to make sure they satisfy (or have satisfied) the rule in order to get him w/out penalty.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Remember the new home, custom built in Santa Cruz.
Seattle seems to be home, but he also built a new custom home in Santa Cruz which is a beautiful place. Just south of San Francisco. So, although there isn't an opening (or is there always an opening when it comes to the Raiders these days?) he really has three things to look at in addition to us.
I believe that the recent good run by the Chargers helped us. A few weeks ago, I was concerned that Turner might be out after this season. I could see that situation as really attractive and I still consider San Diego the best place to live on earth. Throw them into the mix and ....
The new meeting scheduled gives me a bit of hope that I really didn't have yesterday.
Generational Money. Enough to assure that even the drunken cousin is taken care of for life. I think we have a shot
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Practice Squad
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Quote:
Quote:
Now I understand why your name is "spoonfed." Where you live they don't give you forks or knives.
But I thought we weren't supposed to feed the trolls!
A troll, like yourself?
It is what it is. Holmgren is influencing the media. No money was involved other than Holmgren's lie to get Seattle to act. The Browns level of interest is questionable. Talks and Meetings are standard fair when looking for a GM.
Rooney rule? Please.
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Quote:
They have until the Browns interview a minority candidate (if they haven't already) and until Holmgren flies back out for the final meeting.
I'm thinking they are talking to the league to determine if the league can suggest any candidates.. or, if as I suspect, there is a lack of AVAILABLE minority candidates with the right track record, can we be excused from this rule.
I'm not a minority, but if I were and had those types of skills and the Browns called to interview me, the first question out of my mouth would be,, is this a token interview or will you actually consider me?
This is a small fraternity.. You just don't call up a minority candidate and use him to beat the Rooney Rule...
If the Browns have made thier decision,,, then interviewing a minority candidate isn't going to change a thing.... and EVERY minority candidate already knows it...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
The Browns level of interest is questionable.
And we know this because of the interest they have shown in so many other people?
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Quote:
The Browns level of interest is questionable.
And we know this because of the interest they have shown in so many other people?
Dude, what are you doin'?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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tulsa...Since Randy has not done such a great job of spending his own money, I thought I would help him out a little...
First, you dont know if Lerner offered Holmgren 8 to 10 mill a year, do you?
It's reported that the offer was 8 to 10 mill, but I didn't see any specific sources identified. Just because it's reported, that does not make is so.
Therefore, I would not get my shorts in a bunch over the "reported" amount, would you?
As for Parcells..if he did sign a contract for 3 mill per year and has an out clause...he knows where he can double or triple his current salary, should Holmgren opt to take the Seattle job... 
Now Mac, I've been hanging around these parts since 2001, I certainly know enough about this group to qualify my statements and as such, stated "if the report is true", and just because you care, my shorts aren't in a bunch.
#GMSTRONG
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Good stuff as always Toad. Hence, the reason for asking questions 'round these parts. But there's just one thing... Why is Lerner trying so hard to woo Holmgren from Seattle when it seems clear, and has been reported, that Seattle isn't interested in him? It's looking more and more like, if Holmgren wants this type of role, Cleveland is his one and only shot. So is Lerner outbidding himself on this for fear that Seattle MIGHT have some interest in him?
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I don't think Lerner is outbidding himself, I think he wants to lock up Holmgren. Lerner has had enough time to examine who his options are and clearly Holmgren is #1.
I think this may be resolved VERY soon. Just a gut feeling though.
you had a good run Hank.
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Are there really any other good candidates,..?
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Are there really any other good candidates,..?
Not really.
Which is why it's pretty clear Holmgren should be the guy to get.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
Why is Lerner trying so hard to woo Holmgren from Seattle when it seems clear, and has been reported, that Seattle isn't interested in him?
I think the answer is, he wants him here... and maybe it's as simple as he just doesn't want to take any chances on potentially losing out to anyone, not just Seattle.
Today, we kinda got a scare.. Carrato resigns ( ) in Washington and the first words out of reporters mouths has Holmgren going there.. False alarm as it turns out. But what if tomorrow the 49ers fire thier GM (very hypothetical).. who do you suppose would be the first name mentioned... Holmgren.
the idea I think is to strike while the iron is hot, close the deal and start the healing.
Just a guess...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Does anyone else think all the bull about Mrs. H being "settled in Seattle" is bull ?
That kind of money moves anybody,....
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren - Part 2
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