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The Quote:
"He had a better feel for football than anyone I knew."
Bill Walsh speaking on Mike Holmgren. pg. 252 The Genius
What is it going to look like?
Is he absolutely committed to the 4-3?
How will the WCO match up against the AFC North's defenses?
Who is he going to hire?
Receivers who can run after the catch?
Backs who are excellent receivers coming out of the backfield?
Come strong, come in hard. Tell us what its going to look like. Who, what, how.
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Legend
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Just because he espoused the WCO & the 4-3, will he automatically pick a GM/coach with the idea to shift the two systems in those directions? I dunno.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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As far as the WCO goes, I am pretty sure the answer is yes. We can expect it to show up in Cleveland.
I think that it is a good thing. It probably will favor Quinn over Anderson, so I would expect that Anderson will not be resigned.
I think that it will do fine in the AFCN. Philly runs it, Green Bay runs it. In all honesty, it is more about a nomenclature not than a pure style of offense, as it has been expanded and morphed into other teams playbooks.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Quote:
Just because he espoused the WCO & the 4-3, will he automatically pick a GM/coach with the idea to shift the two systems in those directions? I dunno.
Being an offensive guy, I think the WCO is strongly favored to be implemented by the Holmgren regime. The 4-3 less so, but because we're hardly close to fielding an even competent 3-4 unit, a 4-3 would be a simple transition.
On a personal note, I've been begging for more than a decade for the WCO. I've gotten my wish. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Green Bay runs the west coast offense as good as anyone. One thing I hope we take from them is getting big, fast receivers. Donald Driver, Greg Jennings, Javon Walker, Robert Brooks, Sterling Sharpe come to mind. They've had some good ones over the years.
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Traditional NFL offenses use the run to set up the pass.
The West Coast Offense, which was originally developed by Bill Walsh in Cincinatti, and should be called the "Midwest Offense" does the exact opposite of the traditional NFL offense. - The WCO utilizes, short, precise, pass routes to set up the run. It features multiple WR sets, and both various and creative formations - That's the base philosophy.
You mentioned how it measures up to the defenses in the AFC North. - Well, the WCO aims to expose slow linebackers. - Again, multiple formations that feature speedy recievers. I'd say this is exactly what the Browns need to counter Pitt's and Balt's big, bulky, and slower LB's.
Plus, think about how we exposed Pitt's D with our wildcat formation. John Gruden has talked several times about learning this formation. - John Gruden is an offensive guru and is from the Holmgren tree.
This could be big for all of us.
I love it.
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I truly believe that the answer to whether or not we will run the WCO and/or the 4-3 defense is the real key to determining if Mangini stays or goes.
If Holmgren transitions us to the WCO but NOT the 4-3, Mangini has a shot at staying. Obviously the offensive staff would change a bit, but Mangini isn't married to Daboll's system, if you can even call it that.
But if Holmgren decides that 4-3 is the way to go, Mangini's gone. Ryan might stay, since he's run both the 4-3 and the 4-6. But I really believe that Mangini is adamant about keeping the 3-4, and just wouldn't be comfortable running the 4-3, since he's worked with the 3-4 almost his entire coaching career.
In football, especially in the NFL, you really need coaches that can teach the scheme.
If Holmgren makes the Browns a 4-3 team once again, I highly, highly doubt Mangini is our coach next year.
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Quote:
Traditional NFL offenses use the run to set up the pass.
The West Coast Offense, which was originally developed by Bill Walsh in Cincinatti, and should be called the "Midwest Offense" does the exact opposite of the traditional NFL offense. - The WCO utilizes, short, precise, pass routes to set up the run. It features multiple WR sets, and both various and creative formations - That's the base philosophy.
You mentioned how it measures up to the defenses in the AFC North. - Well, the WCO aims to expose slow linebackers. - Again, multiple formations that feature speedy recievers. I'd say this is exactly what the Browns need to counter Pitt's and Balt's big, bulky, and slower LB's.
Plus, think about how we exposed Pitt's D with our wildcat formation. John Gruden has talked several times about learning this formation. - John Gruden is an offensive guru and is from the Holmgren tree.
This could be big for all of us.
I love it.
was gonna say, just because you go "WCO" doesn't mean you don't run the ball,...
All we gotta gotta do now is make sure Harrison, Davis and Jennings go to the pass catching drills that Braylon didn't,...
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In b4 someone says "the WCO won't work in Cleveland."
Then competent posters show examples of it working to perfection in Green Bay, Seattle, Philly, Denver and other cold climates.
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Not only are we going to run the WCO, but we have the guy who has basically ran it to perfection ever since he became a coordinator.
That certainly cannot hurt things.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
In b4 someone says "the WCO won't work in Cleveland."
Then competent posters show examples of it working to perfection in Green Bay, Seattle, Philly, Denver and other cold climates.
I'll save those moments for other posters, as I've explained how the WCO works in any climate and in any division ad nauseum. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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WCO- I think the WCO fits our climate and WR's to be honest. We don't have the horses to run a vertical offense as it's pretty clear we don't have a stud WR. Also our climate certainly doesn't help vertical passing game in December. With the WCO the passes in our winds and weather won't be as affected. So like toad I am excited to be getting a WCO guy. It's to bad we need a QB. Seriously at this point I expect Hasselbeck, Campbell, or Bradford to be on our team next year. Honestly, because of Bradford's accuracy he *could* be special in a WCO, however, much will depend if Suh and Berry are drafted before our picks and how healthy Bradford is. The more we win the more likely Suh and Berry are going to be gone.
4-3: I will really hate moving to a 4-3. I look at it like this. A competent 3-4 can transition to a 4-3 easily as must OLB in a 3-4 are almost equal to a 4-3 end. However a 4-3 cannot transition as easily to a 3-4. I prefer the 3-4 because it allows more looks and helps create confusion. I would also hope that Ryan would be given another year. He has proven he can create some unique blitzes as it must run in that family. However, he needs a true pass rushing OLB and a Safety to make our defense that much better. At this point we are missing our 2 best defensive players (Jackson and Rogers) and to that point Rogers maybe the best player on the team. Can you imagine if we lost Thomas and Cribbs for the year how terrible would our offense look? Yeah I know scary.
Two things I think:
1) Mangini maybe here next year however, we will have a new offensive staff.
2) If Holmgren and his staff decide to draft a QB, then I will completely understand the move and have faith in his QB judging ability.
Go Browns!!![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/BrowniePoints/AndersonSnowPic.jpg)
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Quote:
Quote:
In b4 someone says "the WCO won't work in Cleveland."
Then competent posters show examples of it working to perfection in Green Bay, Seattle, Philly, Denver and other cold climates.
I'll save those moments for other posters, as I've explained how the WCO works in any climate and in any division ad nauseum.
B..bu...but...but...but...the WCO can't work in the AFC North! There's only ONE offense that'll work in the AFC North and that's running the ball 35 times every game and throwing downfield! So what if Paul Brown invented finesse football in Cleveland? If we're not running an offense exactly like Bill Cowher's Steelers, we'll never succeed!
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This will take time though....Mangini has implemented a power Offense and got those kind of players via FA and draft...mostly slow guys who can block...guys like Royal, Massa, Womack, StClair and Robo are bad fits in a WCO
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
At this point we are missing our 2 best defensive players (Jackson and Rogers) and to that point Rogers maybe the best player on the team.
Rogers is force, but we played our best defensive game this year without him, Pittsburgh.
What I want to know is why we didn't look anything like the Pitt game against KC. None of the blitzing packages or anything.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Quote:
Quote:
Just because he espoused the WCO & the 4-3, will he automatically pick a GM/coach with the idea to shift the two systems in those directions? I dunno.
Being an offensive guy, I think the WCO is strongly favored to be implemented by the Holmgren regime. The 4-3 less so, but because we're hardly close to fielding an even competent 3-4 unit, a 4-3 would be a simple transition.
On a personal note, I've been begging for more than a decade for the WCO. I've gotten my wish.
I'm not sure our defensive players might not work better in the 4-3 anyway. I'd guess we can field three competent LBers more easily than 4 . Who knows maybe some of our tweaners might do better going back to DE rather than LB if they can get the weight to do so.
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Quote:
What I want to know is why we didn't look anything like the Pitt game against KC. None of the blitzing packages or anything.
The blitzes used against Pitt were so effective b/c we moved a lot of defenders around before the snap so that Pitt didn't know where it was coming from. I watched Browns Red Zone last night, and Andre Knott said we weren't able to blitz like this b/c KC came up to the line with a silent count and snapped the ball quickly in a lot of cases, which didn't give our defenders time to move around.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
In b4 someone says "the WCO won't work in Cleveland."
Then competent posters show examples of it working to perfection in Green Bay, Seattle, Philly, Denver and other cold climates.
I'll save those moments for other posters, as I've explained how the WCO works in any climate and in any division ad nauseum.
B..bu...but...but...but...the WCO can't work in the AFC North! There's only ONE offense that'll work in the AFC North and that's running the ball 35 times every game and throwing downfield! So what if Paul Brown invented finesse football in Cleveland? If we're not running an offense exactly like Bill Cowher's Steelers, we'll never succeed!
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jc...
I wasn't really a big fan of this guy.. but I just watched a Colt McCoy highlight on youtube, and I think I just changed my mind on this guy.
He is pretty accurate, has a great arm to get the ball down the field, and can run the ball and get out of trouble in a heartbeat...
I'm not really for drafting a QB.. but man... I think he could work.
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I would hope you'd realize the folly of basing any opinions based on highlight reels...............
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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yea.. i know.. key the word highlight.. but.. I don't know.. If McCoy is there in the 3rd/4th round... I would hope the Browns turn in the card with his name on it.
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Oh, Hell, so would I!
He'll be gone before the 3rd round gets here. He could even go before the end of the 1st round.
The things that probably drive him to a 2nd round grade (which is different from where he'll be drafted) are his lack of size (listed at 6'2 210 but I question those) and his arm-strength, which is questionable.
McCoy is a good pro prospect. don't mistake my statements. But basing any opinion off of highlight reels is like buying from a snake-oil salesman: You aren't getting even half of the story.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Toad, I was wondering why noone is talking about my favorite pick for QB in 2010....Tony Pike his stats are down-right outstanding he has the size, arm strength, intelligence and has great deep ball. I think that he will be flying up draft boards once he works-out for scouts
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Well, to my eye, Pike looks fragile at the NFL level, and his arm strength is suspect at this point. We'll know more once he gets through all the workouts though.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Being that I am not an X's and O's guy I have a few things I have been thinking about with regard to a transition to a 4-3 defense that maybe some of the defensive guru's on the board may be able to answer. It seems we have the DT's to accomodate a 4-3 with Rubin, Williams and Rogers but I wonder about the DE slots. Could we see Wimbley possibly move back to DE as if I remember correctly he played DE in college. How would this move efffect his level of play? Second I have read different places where Shaun Rogers might play DE,is this a possibility and do we have two 4-3 DE's currently on the roster. Lastly if Suh would fall to the Browns in the draft is he a possibility at DE I know he is listed as a DT but I am just wondering. It seems we have alot of talent at the DL spots but as we saw with Williams a week or so ago we just need to utilize that talent properly.
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Quote:
yea.. i know.. key the word highlight.. but.. I don't know.. If McCoy is there in the 3rd/4th round... I would hope the Browns turn in the card with his name on it.
I agree completely, Turk, but I'm sure 31 other teams would consider him in the 3rd or 4th round, too.
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remembermuni,
is our wildcat the same as the other teams? i know we have cribbs, but are the core elements the same?...i'd love to incorporate the flash package into the WCO...Cribbs makes it better, although Miami does well with Ricky Williams and Ronnie Brown as well.
Go Browns!
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Offense cannot stand still. There is not one offense that the Defense doesn't catch up to. The PURE WCO is a thing of the past. If Bill Walsh was alive and coaching...he would have made about 3 variations of it by now to keep up with the times.
We do have probably the Most Advanced Offensive LIVING MIND in football right now. And he's had a complete offseason to right his new book and be ready to implement it.
Defense...a lot depends on his HC cause it will be his call. I do not see Holmgren being set in his ways on defense. If anything he might have some preferences in coverages because of his air background on offense...but coverage schemes can work with 3-4 of 4-3 regardless.
If Gruden is his man and one year away...I can actually see him keep Mangini on as long as Mangini is compliant to Holmgren taking over the offense from afar...but get his OC in.
If Mora is his man and already the seeds are planted as Mora has openly questioned the Seattle FO for letting Holmgren slip away. Can he work his way off their team and come to the Browns with Holmgren? Mora is a defensive minded HC who believes in the 4-3...I don't know how flexible he would be.
Another key is - Do we make it hard for Ryan to get away? Regardless of the coaching change will we want him to be loyal to the Browns rather than Mangini? Could he?
Also after the season I don't know if Holmgren would just clean sweep the table immediately. I would think he would want some very intense meetings with the entire staff to learn what he has here in players as well as program. They will be selling their theories to Holmgren as long as there is a chance to continue. Holmgren is football intelligent and cannot be wowed by Mangini's intelligence like a Randy would. But if Mangini truly has some genius in there...Holmgren just might find that out and cultivate the program at hand.
We just don't know!
One thing I'm sure of...he's going to get pretty hands on the Offense and the QB transformation here. As much as one can expect the Pres to do in shorts in the summer hanging with the HC
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
Could we see Wimbley possibly move back to DE as if I remember correctly he played DE in college. How would this move efffect his level of play? Second I have read different places where Shaun Rogers might play DE,is this a possibility and do we have two 4-3 DE's currently on the roster. Lastly if Suh would fall to the Browns in the draft is he a possibility at DE I know he is listed as a DT but I am just wondering.
From a pure "what if" standpoint, yes, Wimbley could put his hand on the ground and become a pure 43 DE.
From a purely opinionated standpoint, I don't believe he'd be any more effective than he is now, which is virtually nil. In fact, the only places he's improved are out in space, so asking him to take on OT's all the time makes him an even less effective player.
Rogers could play any position on the line in any defense, but he'd be most effective as a clogger/penetrator at DT in the 43.
Suh won't drop to us, but if he did, yeah, he could play anywhere as well. It'd depend on who we had at tackle.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Offense cannot stand still. There is not one offense that the Defense doesn't catch up to. The PURE WCO is a thing of the past. If Bill Walsh was alive and coaching...he would have made about 3 variations of it by now to keep up with the times.
Agreed. Pretty much every offense you see has some elements of the old WCO already embedded in it...
Quote:
If Gruden is his man and one year away...I can actually see him keep Mangini on as long as Mangini is compliant to Holmgren taking over the offense from afar...but get his OC in.
Two things about this scare me.. one is, what if Mangini goes out and wins 8 games next year? How do you then fire him. And I don't want MH getting the immediate reputation that while he is the President, he's also going to be calling shots on the field "from afar"...
Quote:
Also after the season I don't know if Holmgren would just clean sweep the table immediately. I would think he would want some very intense meetings with the entire staff to learn what he has here in players as well as program. They will be selling their theories to Holmgren as long as there is a chance to continue.
I hope he does not... and I will admit this is more about appearance that the functioning of the team, but I hope that all of MH's moves at least appear to be based on thorough evaluations. To come in the day after week 17 and clean house wreaks of "I have the power I'm going to use it," doing it the more deliberate way of interviewing, possibly keeping parts and pieces, etc shows that it is more about improvement than it is about pure power...
yebat' Putin
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Bill Walsh gets the credit for the West Coast Offense alright. Who did he work for in his early years in the NFL?
I like the WCO. It helps spread things around and allows you to continue using a passing game when the weather turns to total crap.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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From that video, I don't think we have a QB capable of running the WCO.
I don't want to turn this into a QB thread, however.
Thanks to Toad on another thread for explaining the WCO to those who do not understand it. From some of the videos I've seen, it requires WR's who run crisp routes more importantly than any other position in the offense.
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Thanks Buckeye, but I don't deserve any credit for anything, as I didn't explain much about the WCO. That would take it's own thread and about 15,000 words to do it justice.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Not like you have anything better to do.
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Two things about this scare me.. one is, what if Mangini goes out and wins 8 games next year? How do you then fire him. And I don't want MH getting the immediate reputation that while he is the President, he's also going to be calling shots on the field "from afar"...
He probably wouldn't be fired if he does things the way MH wants him to.
I would prefer if MH hires a GM also.
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Quote:
Quote:
In b4 someone says "the WCO won't work in Cleveland."
Then competent posters show examples of it working to perfection in Green Bay, Seattle, Philly, Denver and other cold climates.
I'll save those moments for other posters, as I've explained how the WCO works in any climate and in any division ad nauseum.
I was one of them. And I wasn't saying it might not be a good idea just because of the weather, I was saying it because of the defenses in our division. Pitt, Balt and Cin don't have lumbering slow LB's and safeties. Pitt and Balt are very physical and fast in the middle of the field, in the flat, and I thought that's where the WCO lives and dies. Weather isn't a huge fact if you have a mentally and physically tough as nails QB and WR corps. Again, I don't purport to be an expert and I take everyone's points but that's what I was really saying. It'd be interesting (for someone who has more time than I  ) to do a break down of how WCO's have done against the other D's in our division over the last decade. Not just wins and losses but how productive were the WCO's.
And I have to say, aside from Cribbs we're not an fast reciever group. And we're certainly not a possession receiver group, lol. I'd have to think, regardless who plays QB we'd be looking at a top tier reciever and TE at the very least. Not sure if we have that slot guy yet. Mossiquai (sp?) is #2 at best if you ask me. That Moore kid is intriguing but we know nothing yet really. We had to go out for some serious talent aquisition anyway, it just obviously changes what we're after pretty dramatically.
My guesses if we go WCO (and I'm actively ignoring the QB position):
I doubt we go RB early in the draft if at all.
I could almost guarantee we go WR early in the draft if not 1st round.
We'll probably go TE in the early-mid rounds.
We all know RT & RG are probably going to be addressed anyway but we'd be in the market for a different kind of RT & RG.
Steiny will stick even though he's had a very pedestrian year.
Overall I'd bet the offense would get the majority of the attention in the draft.
Just guesses mind you.
"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
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Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Not like you have anything better to do.
Ain't THAT the truth 
If I have one more of the neighbors try and bring over food to feed us, I'm going to need two seats for my fat-azz just to get back to Texas!
Hiding in the den typing about Browns stuff is my sanctuary!!!
There must be about 17 dozen assorted cookies and brownies in on the dining room table 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259 |
im travelling out of texas as well, but in the Steeler den of PA  at least the Browns beat the Steelers recently.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,649
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,649 |
Quote:
remembermuni,
is our wildcat the same as the other teams? i know we have cribbs, but are the core elements the same?...i'd love to incorporate the flash package into the WCO...Cribbs makes it better, although Miami does well with Ricky Williams and Ronnie Brown as well.
I don't know if our Wildcat is the same as other teams. Nobody in the NFL runs it better than Miami.
I'm telling you, John Gruden is the guy to get. - He knows how to run an NFL offense to begin with and he has been studying the wildcat since he's been away from the game.
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