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Last edited by Referee2; 12/23/09 02:46 PM.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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you left off the part that it's just Clayton's thoughts. 
"He who buys what he does not need steals from himself."
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There is kind of a reason you didn't see it posted.. It's a media type blowin sunshine up everyones skirts...LOL
If we posted every "Breaking" story such as this....,wow.. it would be nuts...
But thanks anyway....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I usually like Clayton, but he can't possibly know with 100% certainty Mangini is gone. If he wins the next 2 games I think it would be a very tough decision to get rid of him unless MH talks with him and believes he is going to be a problem not being in complete control.
#gmstrong
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Holmgrens here to change the organization. I think that will consist of a TOTAL purge! I don't hate Mangini, but he's now caught up in this
franchise philosophy change and he's gonna get whacked right or wrong. The two quarterbacks need to go. That's been a bane to this team for how many years running? Move em out! Lewis is gone and after him you can begin to pick and sort guys as to who you would keep and who you would release based on potential production.
Change must actually involve change, not keeping the staus quo and hoping beyond hope things straighten out.
A complete and total fresh start! I'm betting Clayton is on target.
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The part that alot of people don't want to realize is that these two (Mangini & Mike) are totally different philisophically. I don't see how you can keep a coach who doesn't/or hasn't run they type of offensive and defensive systems you are trying to introduce.
Mangini is gone, and has been for some while now.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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I think people are deluding themselves if they don't think that's exactly what will happen.
Why would MH handcuff himself in keeping Mangini (who isn't one of HIS guys)? The only plausible reason to keep Mangini would be that he wants to buy some time to bring in someone else he has in mind (eg Gruden).
Browns fan in Canada.
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Just the Center Ring BOZO making claims that are not FACTS but simply his ASSUMPTION on what happens.
The probability is high...it would be nice if Mangini can conform to a working part of the Holmgren program by giving him full control of the O - hire a new OC go over the offense with Mangini and sit in on game plans! Groom the QB hands on in the summer camps.
But you know if not...no big deal, if Holmgren is who we think he is...Mangini will be soon forgotten.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
The part that alot of people don't want to realize is that these two (Mangini & Mike) are totally different philisophically. I don't see how you can keep a coach who doesn't/or hasn't run they type of offensive and defensive systems you are trying to introduce.
Unfortunately you are probably right. We will probably make a switch. From 3-4 to 4-3, and i've heard that our style of offense is different than what Holmgren would be doing (I don't know offensive philosophy). It's just not a fit, so Mangini is prob gonna go. I hope we try to keep a couple of Mangini's players AKA Constanzo, Trusnik, Bowens. I'd like to keep Roth too, but I doubt most of them fit our scheme (may be Roth can play DE next year? and Constanzo has got to stay on special teams. He's the man). It's just really too bad, I like those guys. Veikune's probably gonna look like a waste too (unless he can switch back to 4-3 DE)
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I hope Mangini will not be fired based soley on the WCO, Mangini is starting to show that he really is a good fit for this org. We have a team that could have easily packed it in by now but they show up every Sunday ready to play football. The discipline that Mangini is trying to instill is now starting to pay dividends. I like the direction the team is heading.
Also, MH was hired as a team President, not the coach or GM. If he is here to strip those positions of any power I don't see that as a good thing. MH should not be making the final decision on Mangini anyway, that, at the very least, should be decided by him AND the new GM he hires.
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Thread title sucks.
Obviously.
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John Clayton is about as worthless as they come.
He must have done something good at some point in his career to earn the reputation he's got, but everything he says is a guess.
I really question if he has any sources at all.
I enjoy listening to him for the laughs I get out of it.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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This would be a dumb move.
But unfortunatly, Clayton is often right and Lerner is often dumb.
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And the thread title blows.
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I hope Mangini will not be fired based soley on the WCO, Mangini is starting to show that he really is a good fit for this org. We have a team that could have easily packed it in by now but they show up every Sunday ready to play football. The discipline that Mangini is trying to instill is now starting to pay dividends. I like the direction the team is heading.
I don't buy into that..what was the team doing during 14 other games?
Players popping off about the coach..and each other..
Looking lost..looking like there was no plan..then after 12 weeks and injuries , scandles..other teams PS players are brought in to play over guys that EM himself handpicked and looked better..
Inconsistant results..great D against Pukesburgh but getting destroyed in virtually every other game??
I mean it looked like a soap opera and a roller coaster wrapped into one ..a roller soap coaster.. 
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The thread title really blows.
#GMSTRONG
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from the Quinn thread: Quote:
I believe the guy has made mistakes this year. But I'm wondering why we can't give the guy a second chance to redeem himself. Why can't he be afforded the chance to see if he can improve? We seem willing to do this with our favorite players. Why can't we do this with our coaches?
RAC got four years.
...and this is EM's 4th year as HC....this WAS his 2nd chance, you're talking about strike 3...I for my part don't need to see him swing and miss yet at anotehr fastball...same excuses have been used to silence the skeptics 1 year ago....he has not learned anything, he is what he is...he overvalues detail crap over actual production and talent and mlikes to play mind games with his players...same what he did in NY
You won't get this cat to bark....forget it....NEXT
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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 Wait, this is his 4th year? I'm confused...  By my count, we're nearing the end of year 1 of a rebuilding project. You say he's had 4 years, so my counting must be all messed up. This is very worrisome because numbers are extremely important in my job.  In all seriousness, I think I see what you're saying, but it's posts like this that make it very hard for people to take you seriously.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Dude way to get peoples damn hopes up. REALLY BAD TITLE! 
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It's 4 years in the league as HC...what's so hard to understand?...if a RB has 3 years in PIT and then 1 here and has a 3.5yd/avg with both teams he sucks, right? You want him to see another year of 3.5 to "evaluate" him? I think EM had enough time in this league as HC to be evaluated....THIS job IS/WAS his 2nd chance...and he blew it, repeating the same mistakes he made in NY....I basically called this failure of a season the day he was announced, sorry for the disillusion....you always can opt to live in LaLa-land though and I understand why you can't take me seriously then 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
I hope Mangini will not be fired based soley on the WCO, Mangini is starting to show that he really is a good fit for this org. We have a team that could have easily packed it in by now but they show up every Sunday ready to play football. The discipline that Mangini is trying to instill is now starting to pay dividends. I like the direction the team is heading.
Also, MH was hired as a team President, not the coach or GM. If he is here to strip those positions of any power I don't see that as a good thing. MH should not be making the final decision on Mangini anyway, that, at the very least, should be decided by him AND the new GM he hires.
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Quote:
It's 4 years in the league as HC...what's so hard to understand?...if a RB has 3 years in PIT and then 1 here and has a 3.5yd/avg with both teams he sucks, right? You want him to see another year of 3.5 to "evaluate" him?
Not a fair comparison.
Typically coaches come in because their predecessor had failed. Meaning the team probably sucks, and you're going to rebuild. You're going to bring in an entirely new coaching staff and probably start over. That's exactly what happened here.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Quote:
This would be a dumb move.
But unfortunatly, Clayton is often right and Lerner is often dumb.
WOW,, anything for a dig at lerner...
Lerner knows what he doesn't know so he hired Holmgren to be President..
If Mangini is fired, it will be because Holmgren doesn't want him here. how does that make Lerner dumb....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Quote:
I hope Mangini will not be fired based soley on the WCO, Mangini is starting to show that he really is a good fit for this org. We have a team that could have easily packed it in by now but they show up every Sunday ready to play football. The discipline that Mangini is trying to instill is now starting to pay dividends. I like the direction the team is heading.
In the Holmgren - Part III forum, shepdawg posted a really good article on Holmgren's offensive mindset. Below is an excerpt:
Quote:
Power running game: The 49ers were a finesse team under Walsh. Holmgren made them more physical. Less flim-flam and more wham-bam, if you will. He took that approach with him to Green Bay and now Seattle.
"The difference between what we did in San Francisco and what Mike is doing here and what Mike Shanahan is doing in Denver is the use of the I-formation," said running back Ricky Watters, who has been reunited with Holmgren in Seattle after flourishing in this offense with the 49ers and a variation of it with the Eagles. "What we did in San Francisco obviously worked, but I think it's a much more potent offense when you have the power game with the finesse."
What this says to me is that Mangini's more traditional power game does have a place in the Holmgren version of the WCO-like offense. Just b/c Holmgren and Mangini are from two different schools doesn't mean they are totally incompatible. So its not as simple as "different philosophies, must change coaches" that the national media has been saying. I am really confident that Holmgren will really study Mangini and not make a rash decision. Because he is one of the finer football minds, I can live with whatever he does.
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Quote:
I hope Mangini will not be fired based soley on the WCO, Mangini is starting to show that he really is a good fit for this org. We have a team that could have easily packed it in by now but they show up every Sunday ready to play football. The discipline that Mangini is trying to instill is now starting to pay dividends. I like the direction the team is heading.
I don't buy into that..what was the team doing during 14 other games?
Players popping off about the coach..and each other..
Looking lost..looking like there was no plan..then after 12 weeks and injuries , scandles..other teams PS players are brought in to play over guys that EM himself handpicked and looked better..
Inconsistant results..great D against Pukesburgh but getting destroyed in virtually every other game??
I mean it looked like a soap opera and a roller coaster wrapped into one ..a roller soap coaster..
Are you saying that because we're only starting to look competetive now that it doesn't matter because of how we started the season? Man,...talk about not willing to to give a guy a chance.
Players popping off about the coach??? when did this happen? I know how much the media hates Mangini but how often are the BS they spew ever proven as fact? The play on the field as of late speaks more about how the team feels about their coach than some news deprived reporter who hates Mangini because he's not as accomodating as the media would like.
Attack,....the fact that we're looking better after a multitude of injuries and disapointments this season is actually a good thing. AND the PS guys that came in to replace EM's handpicked guys are ALSO EM's handpicked guys. They're getting a chance because of injuries(like you've already acknowledged) not because the other guys sucked.
This was a team that was not just short on talent, but more importantly had NO vision. This team is looking so much better with their attitude and approach to the game than we've seen in a long long time. Finding a coach better than Mangini right now is not going to be easy.
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I'll admit I'm in La-La Land if you admit you're in Never-Never Land (Quinn will NEVER be good, Mangini will NEVER get a clue, Browns will NEVER turn the corner, I will NEVER stop to wonder why a majority of people on this board have me on 'ignore').
By your line of reasoning (and I'm using that term very loosely), if Shanahan is hired to whatever in-the-dumps team picks him up (we'll just say the Chiefs, for arguments sake, don't remember if he's interviewed there or anything) he should have that team turned around by the end of training camp. I mean, he's had how many years as a HC (since years in the league automatically translates to success with your team)?
Eventually, you're going to have to figure out that this is not a black-and-white argument. You ignore "little" things like overall team talent, starting in cap hell, committing to an overall team/culture/organizational overhaul. You don't seem to understand that the first part of a rebuild is the teardown step.
I'll just end with a suggestion/clarification. If you want to bash Mangini, go ahead. I have no problem with that. You have plenty of ammo to do so (ex. the QB situation, especially earlier in the year). You could also talk about bringing in all the Jets (but there was a good argument for this move earlier).
My point is, take your hand off the DJANGO SMASH!! button on your keyboard.
There are plenty of examples of players (RB's included) where a change of scenery/situation resulted in success.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Maybe Lerner should meet with DawgPound Mike about this too  How embarassing was that?? Dumb.
Hiring a HC to come in to rebuild the RAC 4-12 trainwreck, letting EM do the "tear down", and then bailing on EM after basicly eight games equals dumb.
He hired his last GM and then fired him after eight months. Dumb.
Hiring MH as his czar after he ran Seattle into the ground, giving him free reign over the HC - and in the same breath the ability to make himself the HC = Dumb.
Further tearing down a team that has looked decent since the bye, finally beat Pittsburgh, set a franchise rushing record, and even considering ANOTHER major overhaul such as switching to the 4-3 and the WCO.... That's pretty dumb in my book.
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Quote:
I'll admit I'm in La-La Land if you admit you're in Never-Never Land (Quinn will NEVER be good, Mangini will NEVER get a clue, Browns will NEVER turn the corner, I will NEVER stop to wonder why a majority of people on this board have me on 'ignore').
This is a top 5 zinger in Dawg Talkers history 
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It will be a shame if he does. It will certainly make Lerner like a huge idiot. I think Mangini's plan was exactly what this team needed. It was a plan to build long term and the owner, as usual, screws it up by siding with the ignorant cleveland fanbase. Starting over again-----one year later. So STUPID!!!!!!!!  Mangini had a good draft and was building a team that will be competitive long-term. The guy knows what he is doing. An I really want to see him back this year. He gets it----he knows how to teach, how to coach, and how to build a competitive team. I will be so ticked if he gets fired.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Quote:
Mangini had a good draft
We don't know if it's good or bad.
Early returns are that it was horrific. *Trading out of top 5 to get marginal players other than Mack, Robo being worthless, so on and so forth.*
Either way, It's Holmgren's call and I'll trust whatever he does until he gives me a reason not to.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
It will be a shame if he does. It will certainly make Lerner like a huge idiot.
I think Mangini's plan was exactly what this team needed. It was a plan to build long term and the owner, as usual, screws it up by siding with the ignorant cleveland fanbase.
Time to take us off of the #1 Fanbase in the World list. I think the problem is we have been starved for a Championship Team for so long (NFL), that we as fans "think" we know what is best for the Browns.
Unless our fanbase is made up of Former GM's, Ex-NFL stars or Coaches, then in all reality we need to stop making suggestions on what needs to happen.
The Browns recently announced a Fan Committee that will make recommendations on improvements. Let's keep those limited to the Fan Experience (i.e allowing signs, moving the pound closer to the field, allowing people to stand if they so choose, etc...) But darn it, the onfield decisions need to be made a by a Football Professional.
I really hope Holmgren is our Ozzie Newsome and we can lay the constant change to bed once and for all.
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Mangini ran over Django's dog or something...I think that's his issue lol
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Are you saying that because we're only starting to look competetive now that it doesn't matter because of how we started the season? Man,...talk about not willing to to give a guy a chance
The problem is why after almost the season is over are they looking competitive if you can truely call it that?
They didn't resemble anything like a NFL team for 12 weeks.
What happened the first 12 weeks?
How can that be ignored?
Players popping off about the coach??? when did this happen?
Look up some of things the players have said...Lewis was the most glaring..some of the others didn't know why things were happening..and I could tell they either didn't want to get into trouble or they truely had little communication given to them.
Attack,....the fact that we're looking better after a multitude of injuries and disapointments this season is actually a good thing. AND the PS guys that came in to replace EM's handpicked guys are ALSO EM's handpicked guys. They're getting a chance because of injuries(like you've already acknowledged) not because the other guys sucked.
Well it just means that his evaluation wasn't good to begin with if players brought in off other PS's were better than his drafted players..
And that's a huge strike in my book..
It means he should have done a better job when he was up at bat the first time.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/23/09 03:10 PM.
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I agree that most of these moves were not very well thought out in retrospect. But I feel much better with Holmgren now making all these decisions rather than Lerner. I suspect Randy does too. I actually think it was smart by Lerner to give Holmgren the option to coach - gambling that Holmgren wouldn't take him up on it. The promise of absolute power is really what got Holmgren to come to Cleveland. I can't agree that Holmgren completely ran Seattle into the ground. Here is a list of the starters on that Super Bowl team that Holmgren drafted/acquired as GM (1999-2002): link: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/2005_roster.htmOffense: Matt Hasselbeck Shaun Alexander Bobby Engram Darrell Jackson Jerramy Stevens Ryan Hannam Steve Huchinson Robby Tobeck Defense: Rocky Bernard D.D. Lewis What it does underscore is that Holmgren built an amazing offense, but that he may need help building a defense, as Seattle's D was largely drafted/acquired after Holmgren was stripped of GM duties. Also, I don't think this year will be a rebuild again b/c I believe Mangini is in the middle of a teardown; i.e. there are really only a few players that are untouchable anyways.
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Quote:
We don't know if it's good or bad.
Early returns are that it was horrific. *Trading out of top 5 to get marginal players other than Mack, Robo being worthless, so on and so forth.*
Either way, It's Holmgren's call and I'll trust whatever he does until he gives me a reason not to.
I definitely agree with you on that. I don't talk to the rookies, I don't go to the practices. But, we had two second round picks, and a number 5. We traded down, picked up Alex Mack (so-so decision, I mean we saved lots of money, and probably got our starting center for quite some time, but he doesn't look like he's going to be the next Kevin Mawae or even Nick Mangold)
Of our three second round picks Robiskie has hardly gotten any opportunities, Veikune doesn't really see the field ever, and Massaquoi is playing well.
Otherwise the only pick of ours that comes to my mind is Maivia. I'd be saying nicer things about him if he caught that interception against the chiefs.
Haven't seen Coye Francies, James Davis got injured. Don Carey was cut.
We've had many more drafts that I thought were more promising at the time then this.................
But there are many other things that I like about Mangini. Of course, the way he probably treated George Kokinis probably sealed the deal for himself.
I'd be fine with Mangini continuing to be the coach of the Cleveland Browns, but he ran off the manager that he chose to work for. Now may be Kokinis was too big of a baby to stand up to Mangini, but in many ways he made his own bed with that one. Kokinis was his pick, and for whatever reason that didn't work.
Now that we found someone to replace Kokinis , he faces elimination ................... 
If Holmgren doesn't want to work with Mangini, then that's that. And the breakdown in the relationship between Mangini and Kokinis is the reason that Holmgren is here. So EM is gonna have to deal with whatever Holmgren decides. Period
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Yada Yada Yada,, Heard it all before,,
In some peoples eyes he can do nothing right..
He's put up the money,, he's made mistakes.. But not once did he ever say he was anything more than a fan.. Never once..
It's funny, you knock him for meeting with DP Mike... And I agree, I'd have told them to get bent.. Especially after he met with them and they STILL went ahead with that idiotic revolt...
But if you can find the threads, there were a ton of folks that thought that was great that he met with them (not me)
Point is, he can't seem to please anyone...
He's got money, his father bought the team,They both have taken advice from those that SHOULD have been able to provide solid direction,, Yet, the advice they got wasn't so good..
Policy should have been able to give better advice than to hire Clark.. Both should have been able to find someone better than Palmer...
They both gave the advice to fire palmer.....
Then they advised the hiring of Davis.. who quickly wanted his guy on board as a replacement for Clark.
Al dies (RIP) and even more inexperienced Randy comes along,, takes advice from Policy to hire Collins..
Collins and others (including Bob Kraft) advise the hiring of RAC. Collins and Randy hire Savage after being given good references from Ozzie.
End result,, that didn't work out..
So the last time, he gets advice from Accrosi who recommends the guy from the giants as GM, but Randy makes the decision to hire Mangini who pushes for Kokinis.
If Randy Lerner is guilty of anything, it's of taking the advice he was given by so called experts..
This time, IMO, he did it right.. he went out there and got his own damn expert..
And now, he'll step away and let MH do the job..
THAT isn't dumb.,,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165 |
From your list there are IMO only a few playmakers: Hasselbeck, Alexander, and Hutchinson. All big time players. Letting Hutch slip away though, was a Major blunder.
What it seems is generally ignored is just how terrible the NFCW is, and has been for the majority of MH stay. The Rams have been helpless for years. 1-13, 2-14, 3-13, 8-8, 6-10, and so on. The 49r's have been similarly terrible. Even the Cards have been bad most years.
Someone had to win the division
It's good that MH was able to beat bad teams but I think he gets way too much credit for it. If the Seahawks had played the last eight years in the AFCN they'd be a pathetic as the Browns have been.
I'm hoping for good things, but I think MH gets as much "fluff media love" as EM has received "fluff hate".
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165 |
I'll keep it short and sweet.
Randy flip-flops.
Hiring an expert to run your 4-3, bailing on him when he's unpopular, hiring a "new" expert to convert it to a 3-4, bailing, and hiring the "newest' expert to convert it back to a 4-3 is a bad plan.
It doesn't take an engineer to know that if you hire someone to start building you an airplane and then fire them -only to hire someone new to convert it into a submarine - and then fire them to have someone convert it back to an airplane - that the end result is your going to have a very expensive airplane that can't fly and but has a periscope.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,205 Likes: 234
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,205 Likes: 234 |
The main reason Seattle lost Hutchinson was because the Vikings offer sheet had a so-called "Poison Pill" that said Hutchinson had to make more than Walter Jones, whom Seattle had just signed to a huge deal. Keeping Hutchinson would have blown up their salary cap. In effect, Holmgren had to choose between Jones and Hutchinson, and in that scenario you gotta go with your All-Pro LT, imo.
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