DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren - Part IV in a continuing saga

And "If you build it, they will come." I am most excited about a proven truth. Quality attracts quality. Some other coaches, FAs, and players might welcome a mission with MH.

5 days of no power, I get online and wow Harrison rushes for almost 300 yards. Quinn is on IR oo and there is this dude named Mike that is now team president. Tempted to go back outside and chop the electric pole down Mr. Mangini nice knowing ya. Great finish to the season. Dont let the door hit ya on the way out.

Harrison 3rd all time damn if he could only block lol.

A guy like Holmgreen will never come to Cleveland.

No one will work for Lerner, he is the worst owner in football

Yes I am still doing my happy dance.

x2 on the Toad comment....that shep's 1999 article about Holmgren and the WCO be a sticky on the board.

5 days with no power??? Where do you live? They'd be burning each other in the street here.

Try and keep up will ya Mour....

Seriously, sorry you last power,, glad your back up and running

jc... Man I don't know, the more I hear and think about it... The more this scares me.

I really hope he comes in and tries to see what's working well and build upon it. All this talk about a total re-build is making me bumbed. I really don't think we are that far off from being a good team. I mean if we could get 4-5 true playmakers (all pro type players) I think we'd have something. If he comes in here. Changes the philosophy on defense and offense, we're going to be another 5 years away. Say we supplement our current roster with all-pros at S,CB,ILB, WR, and RT. We'd be pretty dang close IMO. So if we hit 2 of those in the first three rounds this year and get some FA in here. We'd be pretty competitive right away. Can we let these QB's play it out and see if they can improve? Draft or pick off a winner on someones NFL roster?

The thought of him coming in here and dumping guys just because they don't fit the west coast or 4-3 makes me ill. We've been building this 34 defense for I think 4 years now. And we have some pretty good pieces. A good attacking coordinator, a good game planning defensive coach, Wimbley, Roth, DQ, Wright, Rogers, Rubin... If he comes in here and switches to the 4-3 we're back to 4 years ago with Wimbley and Roth being the Kenard Lang's.

On offense, the cupboard is more empty. But our line is in the top 1/3 of the league and will be in the top 5 if we can get a legit RT. We need a big play WR with hands and better QB production. Maybe the QB is on the roster. Likely though, from what I've seen, he's not. Holmgren's MO has been finding QB's from NFL teams depth charts. Can he work his magic there? How bout Troy Smith, JP Losman, Matt Flynn, Brian Brohm, John Booty, Chris Redman, Matt Moore, David Carr, just to throw a few NFL QB's out there. Or can we get someone later in the draft to groom... someone like McCoy or Pike? I haven't forgotten about RB. I just think we can run the ball effectively with Harrison, Davis, and Jennings if we get a top 5 OL. Sure someone like Peterson and Johnson would be great. But, we've shown right now with no passing attack and a bum at RT we can run the ball (11th ranked rushing attack in the league).

In conclusion, I just hope Holmgren comes in and makes as little changes as possible at first. Get some talented hard working guys added to the squad and sprinkle some offensive and QB genius into the current equation.

Quote:

---

Very interesting. That means that it is 100% sure that Holmgren will hire a GM.

---

Or they screwed up and will pay a 500,000$ fine?

Or, now that he's on board, they interview GM candidates - including a minority - and then Holmgren decides he's the best person for the job and takes it himself. Then the Rooney Rule is satisfied, and Holmgren becomes the person in charge of everything. Not saying it's likely, but it is a possibility.

Quote:

---

The thought of him coming in here and dumping guys just because they don't fit the west coast or 4-3 makes me ill.

---

Specifically, which guys are you worried about losing?

Good thought.. Should have been a lawyer.

I wish I could interview the person for which I want their job.. Hi, why do you want this job ? Well.. I think I would be perf.. Ok, thanks.. I'll let you know. Randy.... I can't find anyone as good as me so I'm hiring ME !

Mainly our role players on defense.... role players every good team needs. Wimbley, Roth, Rubin, Coleman, R. Smith, Benard, Mosely, Bowens... all would be bad 43 fits. All are decent if not above average 34 fits. Not everyone on the team has to go to Hawaii. If you go right to the 43 almost half of our defensive roster would be playing in; 1. a spot they've never played.. 2. a spot their bodies and athleticism isn't fit for

On offense.. I'm fine with a change really. Though recently I think your seeing what some stability and good coaching in a system can do for a team. Someones finally figured out how to use Cribbs... limited penalties... no rushers running free... QBs checking to good plays... guys catching passes... stretching the edge on runs... etc... It takes time to figure out what your good at. And IMO we finally starting to figure out what we can do with our roster. Say what you want.. I've been frustrated with the runs on 1st and 2nd down.. then a short pass. But that's what we have to do right now to be effective. It's a sign our QB's just can't get it done right now.

I really hope that we can build a strong penguin-walrus partnership that leads us to a solid organization from top to bottom.

It would be tough to fire Mangini if he continues the streak he is on; especially if his teams continue to show great fire throughout the game.

I believe that Holmgren and Mangini can co-exist. Holmgren can work with him to develop a tough, smart, and legitimate contender. For Whatever reasons, Mangini gets no credit amongst the fans of the League; his demeanor is often blasted as egomaniacal and all his personnel moves are viewed with resent. Even when his draft picks start to show up on the field and his motivational tactics show up with spectacular performances---people are still stuck in the paralyzing grip of distrust.

Fans have questioned every move Mangini has made since he got here. Though the fanbase had clamored for pretty much everything that Mangini brought; they could not accept it as Mangini was not "an established football leader.

In comes Holmgren to calm the collective spirit of Cleveland. The big name, the great years with many playoff wins and Super Bowl appearances. His presence is suppose to cool off the frenzied masses. He has the past, paired with the name, and people know him from the sielines, the media shows, and sports history games.

Now I am really hoping that the two can work together. I believe that they should continue building towards Mangini's goal. Holmgren can add his pieces to the puzzle if necessary. But I really hope those guys are more front office people than any coaching positions.

Even Daboll can stay on. Let this team finally start to grow together before we start blowing them up again. I find it disturbing that Lerner can be so disrespectful to his staff. There is so much turnover within the Browns organization that uncertainty is the name of the game in Berea. Lerners indecisiveness and penchant for dramatic mid-season firings show a stability problem at the very top, these practices have reduced the Browns to a League-wide joke. We pop up weekly as the resident heel in the sporting press, and then we vanish, buried beneath everything that is relevant and revered in Professional Football..

Our wins are always upsets, success is often deemed shocking, and controversy within the ranks is a natural occurrence.

Holmgren was hired to appease a legion of fans that demanded someone to return them to the land of legitimacy. They needed someone to take Lerner out of the equation. Someone who could bring the respect of the fans and the media. And most of all, they needed someone that they perceived as credible.

Mike Holmgren is in.

So with this step, I am hoping that we don't have to see anything else coming from Randy Lerner. Randy can be left alone and disgruntled fans can now harass a "legitimate" team President. A guy noted for his football and organizational savvy. A guy who is trusted and respected to make all the right moves, or at least a lot less of the wrong ones.

Lerner opened the pocketbook for credibility. And with his aquisition he finally brought the promise of stability to Berea. While it had came before in men like Policy, Clark, and Savage; this time he looked for someone with a glowing resume that reeked of legitimacy.

And with the hire, Berea is saved.

Its now in the good hands of an approved architect. And hopefully he chooses to keep it all together and continue to build on what we have accomplished so far this year. I believe that we have assembled a core group of guys who will fight hard every game, and with the addition of some more talent, this team will continue to grow.

Derden, there is just too much that I disagree with in your post to go point by point.

Eric Mangini is a smart coach and can teach football. However, his ego, his distrust, and his gameday management is what will get him fired, if he does indeed get fired.

And about this whole consistency thing...

We had consistency with a couple of regimes in Botch and Savage/RAC. The problem is that they were not good, at all, at their job.

Now we have Mangini, who is, for the most part a different version of both of these guys. Mangini is much more Botch than RAC, but just like Botch, Mangini the GM will get Mangini the coach fired, and for good reason. There are only a handful of players that he added to this team that have made any meaningful impact this year and in the near future *Bowens, Mack, Roth, MoMass, MAYBE Maiava.*

Simply put, you should trust whatever Holmgren decides to do. Just because he fires Mangini doesn't mean the fans are running the organization. I think we both know that you'll be the first one to toss that out because you like Mangini and did the same thing for DA when he was rightfully ousted.

Either way, Holmgren will make the right choice, IMO. The guy knows how to hire football people, his record at doing so is absolutely stellar. If he decides to fire Mangini, then there will be a reason and visa versa.

In Holmgren I Trust. Go Browns!

Quote:

---

Roth weighs 275. That's ideal for a 43 DE.

---

And he himself was also quoted as saying when in Miami... playing in the 43 he didn't feel he was effective. When they switched to the 34 he felt much more comfortable. Also he is listed at 275... who knows what he actually is... could be more could be less.

Quote:

---

Not to nit pick, but how many teams do you know that have 4-5 all pro players?

---

I guess all-pro isn't the term I should be using... as that means they are the best at their position. Minny probably even fails at that one. But I also wasn't saying 4-5 on Defense... I'm saying we need to add 4-5 players on this entire team that could at least be considered all-pro. So, at least in the top 10 at they're position.

Tyler I hope you are correct... this was my initial thoughts as well. Until all the talking heads started churping. Now I am scared. My initial thought was. Well he'll come in here... and if Mangini shows the team is improving under him. He'll give the thumbs up and the mob will back off for a year. That makes sense IMO. Blowing this up for the umpteenth time does not.

But if we switch to the 43, and guys don't fit, shouldn't they go?

Same with a switch to the WCO, right?

"Harrison 3rd all time damn if he could only block lol."

Yep, actually he has done a diservice to all Brown fans....cause he couldn't win a spot on special teams his first two seasons and he refused to accept blocking duties as the 3rd down back. He kept his talent on the bench.

You all can ream RAC n Mangini all you want. Both know football. Both wanted to give Harrison reps. Both so a very talented RB. Yet both benched him cause he wasn't willing to earn it. And don't give me crap about Jim Brown - 280 or not...Harrison is not Jim Brown.

On of the first things Mangini stated was about Harrison becoming his Leon Washington. Except Leon went the extra mile to earn a spot on special teams and to be a competent blocker on 3rd downs. And you can tell there is friction between Harrison and Mangini. Its still not about his talent. But you set up an organization that have players EARN their reps. Harrison...not RAC nor Mangini kept himself down. And until posters realize that they have no leg to stand on regarding Harrison and his lack of effort to block. Jim Brown era was a long time ago. When you have LT spend the majority of his first Off season to sharpen his blocking skills - when you have AP after his rookie season state he has to get better in his blocking so he can be in there more on 3rd downs.

But there is Jerome a 5th round pick knowing full well what is needed to get more reps.

Got news for ya...RAC, Mangini and I betcha Holmgren all see the talent...but they won't hand diddly to player without earning it!!

JMHO

Quote:

---

Regardless, Roth can play in either defense.

---

And you know this from what?

Quote:

---

But if we switch to the 43, and guys don't fit, shouldn't they go?

Same with a switch to the WCO, right?

---

Right.... that's why I don't want it to happen. Do you really want to go through what we did the past 4 years again. Quick turnarounds from completely different philosophies don't happen often. It would be a complete rebuild if he goes to the 43 right away. All those guys I listed above, sure they could play in a 43. Just like you and I could. But it's not what they're bodies or athleticism are meant to do... They'd eventually have to be let go or traded maybe for a later round pick. And we'd have to pick some scubs up for a few years while we rebuilt the front end and back end of our roster.

And while I'm on the topic... when is the last time somebody got a great 43 DE as a late round pick? Ok, now how about a great 34 OLB as a late round pick? They are easier to steal cause they are a projection... with a DE in college you pretty much know what you're getting. And the good ones go high. I guess maybe I just like the 34 better... you can do so much more out of it, and can find these diamonds in the rough easier. Maybe thats my big hang up.

WCO wouldn't be a drastic change IMO. We have a pretty athletic line as it is... we'd just need a WR who is good after the catch to add to Stuckey, MoMass, and Robo... and a QB who is accurate. Really those are things you need in any system. So like I said, I could care less what offense we run... but I'm also fine with leaving it as is and letting these guys finally grow in a system they know and are use to.

Lastly, again... All pro isn't what I meant. I meant at least considered to be an all-pro.

“If Holmgren is there to hire a general manager, fine. Our position is we’d like them to then interview someone like Reggie McKenzie, Sheldon White, Marc Ross or [James Harris] for that job.”



Actually I wouldn't mind if he interviewed and hired McKenzie...he's a very competent exec...keep that name in mind..they worked together..

Eotab:
Harrison wasnt benched due to poor blocking. He has blocked well throughout the year. He complained and Mangini deactivated him. Hell if it wasnt for Lewis making a bigger rift we probably wouldnt have seen Harrison ever again.

Saying Harrison is a poor blocker is just an excuse that became accepted because he was a poor blocker when he arrived. 95% of the backs coming out of college are poor blockers. Harrison worked on it and improved and he has earned his way onto the field.

As for Holmgren and his opinion of Harrison, I am sure it is pretty high because he is the perfect fit for the WCO along with Vickers being the perfect fullback for this scheme.

Quote:

---

Right.... that's why I don't want it to happen. Do you really want to go through what we did the past 4 years again.

---

Well Barf, I think it could be said that the reason Holmgren was hired was to bring a winner here. I don't think anything less than that is acceptable. I am sure we both agree with that.

So to suggest that he handcuff himself in order not to cause too much turnover just doesn't make sense..

not that what I would do makes any difference, but If I'm brought in to fix what's broken,,,, I'm gonna do the things that have worked for me in the past and I'm gonna bring in people that know whats what....

If I'm told I can't,, I don't take the job..

He can cut this thing to the bone if he wishes.

Some may not like it but it could very well be a complete ground zero rebuild!
Hey, we're barely on the first floor now so what's the difference!

Eotab:
Harrison wasnt benched due to poor blocking. He has blocked well throughout the year.

nice try...please tell me about some theories...but don't tell me about football - I watch the games. There probably is something to cause the friction...but the reason he's been on the bench for most of 3 seasons is because of his blocking.

He just has been out there too many times and poof he'll make a horrible attempt of a block and then he gets taken out and never seen of again. Attitude...possibly added on don't help as in as he is getting reamed out he defies the RB coach - so he ends up on the bench.

Ya want me to prove it? I know exactly what I'm talking about...he almost prevented us from seeing him make a record day - an amazing day!

# 6-R.Succop kicks 63 yards from KC 30 to CLV 7. 16-J.Cribbs to CLV 25 for 18 yards (55-J.Rogers).
# 1-10-CLE 25 (14:55) 35-J.Harrison right tackle to CLV 34 for 9 yards (39-B.Carr).
# 2-1-CLE 34 (14:21) 35-J.Harrison right tackle to CLV 37 for 3 yards (94-T.Jackson).
# 1-10-CLE 37 (13:41) (Shotgun) 10-B.Quinn pass incomplete short left to 86-M.Gaines.
# 2-10-CLE 37 (13:37) 10-B.Quinn pass short right to 88-C.Stuckey pushed ob at CLV 48 for 11 yards (24-B.Flowers).
# 1-10-CLE 48 (13:37) (No Huddle) 10-B.Quinn up the middle to KC 49 for 3 yards (95-R.Edwards).
# 2-7-KC 49 (12:58) 35-J.Harrison up the middle to KC 42 for 7 yards (30-M.Brown; 51-C.Mays).
# 1-10-KC 42 (12:20) 10-B.Quinn pass short left to 35-J.Harrison ran ob at KC 34 for 8 yards.
# 2-2-KC 34 (11:47) (No Huddle) 34-C.Jennings up the middle to KC 29 for 5 yards (92-W.Gilberry).
# 1-10-KC 29 (11:29) (No Huddle) 34-C.Jennings right end to KC 29 for no gain (50-M.Vrabel).
# 2-10-KC 29 (10:50) (No Huddle) 10-B.Quinn pass incomplete deep right to 11-M.Massaquoi.
# 3-10-KC 29 (10:30) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 10-B.Quinn pass incomplete deep right to 11-M.Massaquoi.
# 4-10-KC 29 (10:18) 4-P.Dawson 47 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-64-R.Pontbriand, Holder-2-R.Hodges.

Note...Harrison was in on a 1st n 10 and BQ went to roll out left Harrison was right there as an extention of the moving pocket set up to chip block the last guy on the OL...he purposely (selfishly I'm sure viewed by coaches) didn't even touch - actually made a fained nudge towards the end guy and then bolted to the flat - ME ME ME with hands up...BQ in trouble makes a backhand shovel pass to get out of the mess and Harrison catches it.

No more Harrison for the rest of the drive.

If we didn't have injuries and Jennings looked very ineffective...we might not have seen Harrison again!

So you can believe what you believe...I don't need no Journalist to point out to me whats going on in this situation. Possibly their some animosity in the locker room/classroom but there is no doubt in my mind it all stems from his blocking.

Now in defense of him...I actually saw him make a block or two in the last couple of games. That don't get him a pass on the selfish stuff he has done.

JMHO and I won't talk anymore on this thread...if you wish copy n past what you want on a Harrison thread and continue there. I won't talk about it except to say...if this is how he is...unless he changes it might be the same with REGIME 3!!

Quote:

---

He just has been out there too many times and poof he'll make a horrible attempt of a block

---

I agree. It's pretty certain most saw the whiff on Ray-Ray because it was talked about on here. That one was obvious and easy to see. Some of the others weren't as obvious. I'm not as good as some in seeing everything at game speed but I've noticed two other times when he was in position of make a good block squarely on the defender and he side-stepped him only to chip him and barely slowing him down.

I really don't know how often this actually happens. But the fact that I'm not that great at seeing all this stuff and that I don't always focus on Harrison's blocking but still have seen three times that he bailed I'm sure it's happen considerably more.

On the other hand, I've seen him lay a few powerful, hellishing blocks on some defenders so I don't really understand what's up with that. Maybe those come after he got his ass chewed out, I don't know.

Obviously we see two different things when we watch that play. It lookd like the guard was supposed to pull and he was slow to get there. Harrison was supposed to chip and become the outlet. Tamba just made a wicked move to avoid the chip but it slowed him down enough for the play to work. BTW the final play of that drive I believe Harrison is back in the game.

OO and I know the Browns like to script the first 10 or 15 plays so maybe the design was for them to share reps after first few plays. We just do not know.


Now to the topic of Holmgren. harrison and Vickers are perfect for the WCO and both should become household names if Holmgren turns this into his plan.

I am really curious as to how this OL is put together for next season. Fraley at RG and Steinbach at LG with Mack in the middle isnt the typical holmgren type of guy but they are really quick and mobile. I think you can pull and trap and trap and pull like no team in football with this group. Thomas is a freak so he fits in any scheme.

Receivers hmm Stalworth? really this is the group that better get ready to run because they are going to be running route after route after route after route. As Mr. T would say, I pity the fool that runs a poor route with Holmgren watching lol. The stories about Holmgren working receivers are very interesting to say the least lol.

Man if by some miracle they can teach Cribbs to be a receiver in Holmgren's offense, can you imagine the YAC this guy could accumulate if he learns to catch and run routes.

Quote:

---

The stories about Holmgren working receivers are very interesting to say the least lol.

---

He was hired as president, not wr coach.

There is the Holmgren way of doing things and that isnt going to change as long as he is incharge. Whomever he brings in will be doing things his way and you can bet he is going to be involved. There are certain things that Holmgren takes pride in and those things will be emphasized to say the least. Receivers running quality routes is a really really big one for him.

ive been on the fence about mangini but MH's hiring just about sealed his fate, I dont see why you hire a guy like MH and he doesn't already have a list of his guys. He may not be teaching the WR's and QB's personally but bet that he will have his coaches in place that he entrusts to do the grind work for him.

For the run game I think Harrison, Vickers, and even Jennings can work. James Davis I'm real excited to see as well. The NFL has become more of a multi-headed run league versus the premier back, no need for us to look at the backfield on offense. QB is a ? as is RG or RT. I know we could use both but I doubt we fix both in one offseason, if you find a good draftable RT though we'd have a NICE line imo, you can mask an average RG between Mack and a promising RT.

On the defense who knows I know Holmgren ran 4-3 defenses but he also ran them during an era when virtually no one ran 3-4. 3-4 is making a renaissance and I dont know how much control MH exerted over his defenses.

As bad as our offense has been I think we need more pieces on defense. Its bad when you have guys like Adams and Furrey starting in the backfield. These guys aren't rookie WR's who either are learning or not playing, their stopgaps. We need some backfield help and linebacker help. Look for this upcoming draft to target OT, DB, and LB, with some wildcards for DL and maybe QB depending on whats available.

starting over again/

We are not "starting over again" (with a coaching change) ... we are still at zero (after a year with Mangini) ... more accurately, "still starting over" ... a coaching change at this point does not change the improvement trajectory negatively. It may very well change it positively.

this.

the cap is in better shape now than a season ago, we have a horde of draft picks to go on with as well. Could EM stay? sure. But we'll see what MH comes up with. Either way expect coaching changes esp. on offense