DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren - Part IV in a continuing saga

I like a more balanced attack on O, especially with the wind and weather concerns at CBS. It seems like you can get more with less this way.

Some say that in a WCO the pass sets up the run. That's the part I dont get. How does short to intermediate pass plays efficiently open up the run? I think it's more like the short pass opens up the long pass , which is fine as long as you have a QB that can accurately throw the ball deep as well as short, and the weather can really create problems with this as well.

Hey, if we had a Shaun Alexander, Matt Hasselback or Brett farve (in their prime) on this team and we played in a dome, I'd be a bit more optomistic.

It is all about creating the home run. You turn the quick slant into 70 yard runs. Even the long ball isnt really the long ball, often its just a 20 yard reception and a ton of yards after catch.

Like we were talking about earlier, receivers have to run great routes or none of it works. It is a major major emphasis of holmgren. You can have a deadly accurate QB but if the receiver rounds off his route, your accurate QB looks like total garbage.

Toad, no offence taken...just throwing that out there.

Where do you folks think Stallworth might fit in a Holmgren offense? I seem to remember that we had high hopes for his YAC potential when he first got here. (Assuming of course that we keep him.)

Tamba just made a wicked move to avoid the chip but it slowed him down enough for the play to work.

Not even close to what happened.

Holgrem OL? has bodies for the Right side so that there is no urgent need. But RT n RG could be easily upgraded. I think Fraley has a home here as reliable veteran interior backup...and could give quality starts in the interior on a short term basis.

Hadnot/Womack/St.Clair should all be replaced/upgraded on for the RG/RT position...possibly the 3 will fight for one or two back up spots.

Steinbach will be a little harder to upgrade on. But if the opportunity arises we could make that move as well.

JoeT and Mack...are going to be staples of the OL for quite some time (code Breakers )

WRs...don't think we are that bad off. I think both MoMas and Robo will improve, actually I got a feeling Robo might bust out. Stuckey is excellent. I don't remember much investments into WR for GB n Seahawks - And the one Holmgren pulled the trigger on did not turn out well (Koren Robinson). Stallworth or FA addition is a possibility, also we would see what kind of role Holmgren will have for Cribbs, RB? stay with WR?

I like Cribbs in a Roger Craig role...

JMHO

It still has to be alot more than that. The only short pass I can think of that has the best chance of going for 6 is the quick slant over the middle. If that's your bread and better I would think defensively those would be easy routes take away. Sooner or later you're going to have to go deep. Like you said,...we'll need some really good receivers,...do we have them?

It's funny because what we're talking about with WCO sounds an awful lot like what we're doing now.

Quote:

---

I would take a guy like Chris Brown, not real big but tough, anyday.

---

Oops, I meant Chris Johnson

Chris Brown is only tough on Rhianna

You know who'd be good with the WCO for us? Chad Pennington. Am I crazy? He's one of the highest rated QBs in history, hard as that is to believe.

His shoulder is shredded wheat.

Quote:

---

Keep in mind people said this about Drew Brees.

(I know Pennington had 2 surgeries and Brees had one but bear with me...if he can play, he can play.)

---

Pennington has a history of arm problems beyond the surgeries,,, But yeah, that's a guy that I'd like if he could stay healthy...

I would have zero problem with the Browns bringing in Pennington. He's smart and accurate; the two most important things for any QB. And his lack of arm strength wouldn't be as important in the west coast offense.

After those two shoulder surgeries, the question is, is he ambidextrous?

and he is 38 not 28.....

yes, there are no bananas.......

there are zero viable FAs available this off season.

so, its a draft pick or what we got

and Toad, forget JC, he is staying in DC

jmo,

Chad Pennington | #10 | QB

Miami Dolphins | Official Team Site



Height: 6-3 Weight: 230 Age: 33

Born: 6/26/1976 Knoxville , TN

College: Marshall

Experience: 10th season

High School: Webb School [Knoxville, TN]

http://www.nfl.com/players/chadpennington/profile?id=PEN375096

Looks like he'll be 34 in June.,,,,, Good Catch Ammo

wow, he's been around for 10 years already!???!!

I still think of him as a youngster QB

2009 NFL Free Agents
By: Roshan Bhagat

Top Quarterbacks

Age as of 9/1/10. All free agents listed here are done so with an optimistic outlook that a new CBA will be agreed upon. Accordingly, only four accrued seasons are necessary to obtain an Unrestricted Free Agency status on this list.

Kyle Orton, Denver Broncos (27)
Losing Orton for the second half against the Redskins and having him forced off the bench against San Diego showed Orton’s real value to Denver, as the offense became anemic with Chris Simms. Without his efficient passing, the Broncos really struggle to put points on the board. It’s surprising the Broncos haven’t already looked to extend Orton who just does a great job leading the offense to long scoring drives. Maybe they’re hoping to get a little more leverage should the CBA fall through, which could allow the Broncos to keep Orton on a restricted tender. If he’s allowed to hit the open market, all hell could break loose. Orton doesn’t carry the aura of a franchise quarterback, but has now managed two different offenses to winning records.

Jason Campbell, Washington Redskins (28)
A big week of 367 yards and 3 touchdowns in the heartbreaker against the Saints a couple weeks back showed Campbell's potential. His numbers are actually improved across the board everywhere from a season ago, except interceptions where his total has doubled in three less games. Campbell has played better over the second half of the season, but it seems like he’s played his way out of Washington, who seems ready to gamble for an elite quarterback than stick with the so-so Campbell. With a number of talented quarterbacks possibly lining up to enter the 2010 NFL Draft, in a best case scenario, Campbell could possibly get a 1-2 year deal to compete as the starter on a quarterback-starved team.

Chad Pennington, Miami Dolphins (34)
Pennington wasn’t finding the same success this year as he had in last year’s great campaign, even before suffering another season-ending injury. His shoulder injury luckily showed no damage to his rotator cuff which has already been operated on twice. He should be able to start throwing again in January, but is unlikely to be retained by the Dolphins where Chad Henne has shown promise as one of the league’s best young quarterbacks. Henne has the arm strength to stretch the defense, something Pennington has always been heavily criticized for lacking. A 33 year-old Chad Pennington coming off a third shoulder injury won’t garner much excitement in free agency, but may have the opportunity to compete for a one-year job on a needy team. Pennington doesn’t have age on his side, the arm strength, or the durability to be considered anything more than a stop-gap solution at this point in his career.

Tarvaris Jackson, Minnesota Vikings (27)
It’ll be interesting to see how a season behind Brett Favre will have changed Tarvaris Jackson. He looked like a player showing gradual improvement with the potential to finally turn the corner this year. Favre’s retirement decision will likely come down to the last moment again and will depend on he and his team’s play down the stretch of the season. If a new CBA isn’t agreed upon, Jackson will become a Restricted Free Agent in which Minnesota will most likely retain him. If not, his decision to stay or leave Minnesota could very well come down to how Favre’s decision turns out, or he could stick it out and go the Aaron Rodgers patience route. Regardless, in the sparing time he’s gotten this year in blowout wins over the Rams and Seahawks, Jackson has completed a high percent and has a 124.0 QB Rating on the year through 15 attempts. Keep in mind he was coming of a preseason rating of 118.4. In limited playing time, the numbers game heavily favors Jackson over the last year.

Kellen Clemens, New York Jets (27)
Drafting Mark Sanchez spelled the end of Kellen Clemens’ future in New York. He was rather disappointing in his duty as a starter, making little progress before this season. If Clemens is satisfied as a career back-up, he could decide to accept a small contract to play behind Sanchez. When he finally got the chance to play in Buffalo, after Sanchez’s injury, Clemens took 3 sacks, threw 2 passes, and ran twice against a tough Bills pass defense in 22 snaps. Against a below average Buccaneers defense, he was only able to muster 111 yards through the air, minimizing mistakes and allowing his defense and running game do the brunt of the work. Clemens didn’t have a particularly great game, but could compete for a starting position on one of the league’s lesser teams if the Jets let him walk.

Other Notable Free Agents:

Charlie Batch, Pittsburgh Steelers (35)
Kyle Boller, St. Louis Rams (29)
David Carr, New York Giants (31)
Brodie Croyle, Kansas City Chiefs (27)
Daunte Culpepper, Detroit Lions (33)
Rex Grossman, Houston Texans (30)
Joey Harrington, New Orleans Saints (31)
Jon Kitna, Dallas Cowboys (37)
Matt Moore, Carolina Panthers (26) – Restricted FA
Chris Redman, Atlanta Falcons (33)
Brett Ratliff, Cleveland Browns (25) – Exclusive Rights FA
Troy Smith, Baltimore Ravens (26) – Restricted FA
http://www.footballsfuture.com/freeagents.html

Is anyone imterested in someone on this list?

NFL Free Agent Tracker

QB

Pos Player Name FA Status Previous Team Current Team
QB Charlie Batch UFA Pittsburgh Steelers Free Agent
QB Kyle Boller UFA St. Louis Rams Free Agent
QB Mark Brunell UFA New Orleans Saints Free Agent
QB Jason Campbell UFA Washington Redskins Free Agent
QB David Carr UFA New York Giants Free Agent
QB Kellen Clemens UFA New York Jets Free Agent
QB Brodie Croyle UFA Kansas City Chiefs Free Agent
QB Daunte Culpepper UFA Detroit Lions Free Agent
QB Jake Delhomme UFA Carolina Panthers Free Agent
QB Rex Grossman UFA Houston Texans Free Agent
QB Tarvaris Jackson UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
QB Jon Kitna UFA Dallas Cowboys Free Agent
QB Eli Manning Re-signed New York Giants New York Giants
QB Josh McCown UFA Carolina Panthers Free Agent
QB Matt Moore RFA Carolina Panthers Free Agent
QB Kyle Orton RFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
QB Chad Pennington UFA Miami Dolphins Free Agent
QB Chris Redman UFA Atlanta Falcons Free Agent
QB Ben Roethlisberger Re-signed Pittsburgh Steelers Pittsburgh Steelers
QB Sage Rosenfels UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
QB D.J. Shockley UFA Atlanta Falcons Free Agent
QB Troy Smith RFA Baltimore Ravens Free Agent
QB Brian St. Pierre UFA Arizona Cardinals Free Agent
QB Charlie Whitehurst UFA San Diego Chargers Free Agent

http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/fa.php?option=QB&y=2010

here is another list

Always felt that Carr was in the same boat as Couch, both got drafted at the wrong time by the wrong teams and if given a decent supporting cast would have been solid QB's for many years.

Kyle Orton is someone who rarely gets mentioned as a possible QB for the Browns ..... but the guy is an effective and efficient passer.

He also probably woud not break the bank.

Quote:

---

He's smart and accurate; the two most important things for any QB. And his lack of arm strength wouldn't be as important in the west coast offense.

---

Maybe I'm wrong but isn't that what people were saying about Quinn 3 years ago?

Interested??? Sure, but a lot depends what our plans are with DA n BQ - do we trade one? both? and start all over?

2 guys on the list I am interested.

David Carr - rarely do I remember him given time and not make accurate throws...of course in Houston that was maybe 5 times. He's had two years to sit outside of the box and regroup his game mentally. Always loved his skills as an accurate thrower and mobility, We have JoeT who could get him in the comfort zone - He's in that perfect stage of COMEBACK career.

Troy Smith - I know during the draft deadbates I had reamed some PRO Troy dawgs - but of course they were talking about taking him with our first two picks possibly. I believe he went in the 6th??? and if they make just the low tender we could put in a contract bomb in there where they would not match...6th rounder would be just fine. I always loved his accuracy as a passer in the pocket and he is pretty good on the move as well.

I wouldn't mind anyone or both of the above pending on what we do with our current roster?

JMHO

I hope we don't need to spend a high draft pick on a QB.

Troy Smith: late 5th round pick,don't we have two 5th round picks?
Kyle Orton will prolly stay with Denver
Jason Campbell: will prolly stay too ( sorry Toad)
David Carr: this is the only name that stands out to me. He is 31 and has not been beaten on for a few years.
Jon Kitna: may be good for a back-up.

Would BQ be happy being a back-up to Troy or David Carr?

We have 9 weeks to see how this all unfolds.

Quote:

---

Would BQ be happy being a back-up to Troy or David Carr?

---

Is this a joke?

The last time I saw Carr play he was on the Giants, and he was innaccurate and didn't move the offense down the field (given it was preseason).

I just don't see David Carr as the QB of our offense. I see something more like, we get Matt Hasselback and then draft Colt McCoy or an accurate college QB for the future. May be we even stick with Quinn for a year and draft a guy. But I don't expect David Carr or Troy Smith to do anything for this team.

not a joke, do you see me laughing?

It's more like desperation, 300 lb. porker at closing time desperation

Holmgren will meet the Cleveland media on Monday
Posted by Mike Florio on December 27, 2009 5:58 PM ET
Though Mike Holmgren won't officially arrive in Cleveland and take the reins of the Browns until January 4, the team has announced that he'll be available in the team's press room via conference call on Monday at 5:00 p.m.

Expect questions to center on whether Holmgren will keep coach Eric Mangini, and whether Holmgren will hire a new General Manager.

With the Browns winning their third straight game, there's a chance that Holmgren will declare that Mangini will be back for 2010.

As to the G.M. issue, Holmgren is expected to hire one, and the candidates include (per Glazer and ESPN) Randy Mueller of the Chargers, John Schneider of the Packers, and Tom Heckert of the Eagles. (All three also are candidates for the Seahawks G.M. job.) Per ESPN, another candidate is Seahawks director of pro personnel Will Lewis.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/27/holmgren-will-meet-the-cleveland-media-on-monday/

Lewis, Heckert and Schnider are both, IMO, great choices for GM.

I'm just not sold on Muller.

Schneider and Heckert are my two top choices.

Heckert, although I don't know a lot about him, I know I have been very impressed by Philly's drafting over the years.

AJ Smith is really the person in SD.

We won't know anymore tomorrow about MH plans than we do right now. It will be all show and no tell.

Quote:

---

As nice as these wins are, they should not sway Holmgren into giving Mangini another year if he isn't a match for the plan. If he isn't a match, he goes. Even if we win out. And that's the way it should be.

---

I will bet you anything that Holmgren will NOT allow these last couple of wins to factor in to his decisions.. I'm sure he'll sit down with Eric, talk some shop and either come to some meeting of the minds or agree that seperate ways is better.

Holmgren has enough cred that whatever he decides is something I'll personally embrace. That coming from a guy that thinks there is no way Mangini should be allowed to stay.... ME..

If there is a chance in Holmgren's mind at this time that EM might work out, Holmgren will sit down with him for a long chat on philosophies and if that has a positive outcome he'll interview the coaches and players to see how his interrelationships and training techniques have been conducted. Basically if he hasn't already written him off, he'll give him an opportunity to stay.

j/c...


The only way I think Mangini stays is if Holmgren sits down with him and says "I hand pick your coordinators, I draft who I want, I cut who I want, I trade who I want, I sign whatever free agent I want, and you do nothing but coach the team on Sundays"

CCDawg

I completely agree. People want to debate about Mangini but, there are a couple of things that get talked about and get overlooked that I think are deal breakers and can't be overcome.

First of all Mangini runs a completely different system then Holmgren has or his desciples run. If you want everyone from the top to the bottom to be in sync then they all have to be looking for the same style of coaches and players to fit a perticular system. Holmgren's system. You don't ask him to build an organization based on his strengths and beliefs, but then expect him to keep a coach and his staff and run a different scheme that are the complete opposite of Holmgren strengths. That makes no sense!

Secondly, Mangini is not a good talent evaluator. He struck out on the draft. He has street free agents starting over his draft picks. The draft picks had all preseason and throughout the season to practice, learn the system, and improve enough to be productive on gameday yet players can be signed and starting in 3 days. He can't even evaluate the talent on his own roster. Now that he is forced to play the backups because of injury, the backups are more productive than Mangini's appointed starters. Harrison, Fraley, Rubin, etc.....

He may know x's and o's, but that's only one of a head coaches traits that is necessary to be successful. Leadership, ability to motivate, ability to communicate with players, ability to make adjustments, ability to understand he doesn't know everything and listen to others opinions and take them into consideration instead of being such a dictator that only his opinion matters. Mangini is lacking several of these traits and will never be successful because he's not a COMPLETE coach.

These issues cannot be overlooked and will unltimately be the reason he is relieved of his duties.
CASE CLOSED