DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren - Part IV in a continuing saga

I am speaking of course about those who are not subscribing to the lynch mob mentality....they are few in number...lol (so "most" of a "few"....lol)

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Get ready to see our next 1000-yard back because it's coming.........

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And that's suppose to get us excited???...Please Dude...Put the Lolipop Genius Crap for a WCO down for a few...

And THINK...And I see about FIVE here that actually DO THINK...

1000???......62 a game...WOW...Color me UNIMPRESSED...
1250???.....78 a game....WOW...Color me CURIOUS...
1400???.....87 a game....U HAVE MY ATTENTION...
1500???....94 a game.....NOW I'M IMPRESSED...

If u get off on a lousy ass 62 a game (1000) in a WCO...U ain't even close to understanding it like u spout u do...

Poopy pants...poopy pants!!!

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Then week after week the lynch mob have trickled off - leaving just a few drunks at the Saloon still talking it up as an imperitive...

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thanks for the post, Frenchy.

Now see? THIS is the kind of stuff that makes me say the kinds of things in my first post in this thread. I know your was an op-ed piece, and I can live with that.

However, when we fans wait just a day or two, something like this truns up:

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Mangini not opposed to having 2 bosses
Eric Mangini says he wouldn't object to having two bosses in Cleveland.

By TOM WITHERS

AP Sports Writer

BEREA, Ohio —
Eric Mangini says he wouldn't object to having two bosses in Cleveland.

With new team president Mike Holmgren due to arrive next week and planning to hire a general manager, Mangini said he would not be opposed to a hierarchy that would place him below two football executives.

Mangini, who is expected to meet with Holmgren early next week, reiterated that he's in favor of adding anyone who can help the Browns.

"You get smart people, looking to do the same thing, committed to the same thing, it's great," he said Wednesday

Holmgren signed a five-year deal and said he will not decide Mangini's fate until after they meet. Holmgren said he will evaluate the whole season, not just Cleveland's current three-game winning streak.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010638335_apfbnbrownsmanginisfuture.html


What's a poor fan to believe?

X2

You left out plenty. My favorite was the Lions faking injuries. Another friend that got the bus treatment.

Mangini T-Minus 5 days.

We'll have turned an important corner in actually improving this franchise.

He wasn't his own Czar in NY. There was a VP/GM Mike Tannenbaum (Christmas tree ? ) above him and the owner above that. He came here with the same set up; Kokinis as GM and Lerner above that.

Granted, Kok was gone in a hurry and though we don't know all the details regarding that firing it still stands that Mangini did not hire in here as his own GM/HC.

Maybe he's a power hungry bastage who had designs on Kok's job. Maybe he wrestled Kok's job away from him. Or maybe he was running the whole show only because Kok wasn't doing his job. In other words, maybe he ended up being his own Czar by defult and not because he's the power hungry bastage he's been accused of being. We'll never know for sure.

All we do know is that he hired in with he same hiearchy he had in NY. So he was not against working under a GM either at NY or here.


So why wouldn't he be agreeable to working under a GM here? The only difference between this new Browns hiearchy, the previous Browns hiearchy and his NY gig is that there are now two people between he and the owner instead of only one. That doesn't seem like such a big deal for a HC unless he actually is the power hungry bastage who contrived to become his own Czar and now finds his kingdom toppled.

If he is the power hungry bastage then he is lying to save his job because he knows it's a long shot that he'd ever get another head coaching job in his career. But if the power fell to him by default and he reluctantly took the bull by the horns and did what he had to do for the team then it's not surprising he'd be more than willing to work with a President and GM.

It's very hard to get a real take on Mangini. He's a dictator as a HC. I believe that is well known but not a defect. It's a style he didn't invent. There've been many HC's like that in the past and some of them very successful. But that doesn't automatically make him a power hungry bastage who demands to run the whole show. That may well be a misconception fueled by the demise of Kokinis and speculated to death by the media. As you've said, the media has portrayed him in a very unfavorable light which may not be true at all. There may be good reasons behind some of his actions and methods that have come under fire.

It could be that the Kokinis thing surprised Mangini rather than played into his plans as many believe.

So, is Mangini willing and even favorable to working under Holmgren and a General Manager? Why not? It would not only make his job easier by not being forced to be responsible for so many things allowing him to focus on being the HC, but it would also make him a better HC in the long run.

He can go with that, or think he knows better than Mike Holmgren what it takes to be successful in the NFL. But he's never going to be the guy to convince Holmgren that his way is better than Holmgren's way which is one thing Holmgren has already said it would take to change his mind on what he thinks is best.

To buck Holmgren at this point is career death. He has no choice but to be receptive to working with him. He has no choice but to take a long, hard look inside and realize he has to change some things. He actually has no choice but to kiss some ass and humble himself to keep his job at this point.

I think that he needs to both agree with Holmgren in whatever Holmgren says and also come up with his own philosophy that mirrors what Holmgren is already thinking. After all, it's one thing to agree with me, it's quite another to tell me my ideas before I disclose them to you. The problem with that is Holmren's way and Mangini's way are very different. They come from different coaching trees. Very, very different coaching trees. Both successful but different. Each is convinced of his way.

If Mangini can convince Holmgren that his way is best then he is fine. But he can't do that. It would put Holmgren at a disadvantage right out of the gate if he allowed Mangini to run his Parcells-type system. I don't believe that will happen.

If Mangini can convince Holmgren that he fully understands Holmgren's way and believes in his deepest being that it is the best way to go then he is fine. But he can't do that either or he would already have been doing it Holmgren's way.

It may have been done before, but it can't be easy to jump from tree to tree.

I can't see Holmgren wasting a year on allowing Mangini to do things his own way. Neither can I see Mangini doing things Holmgren's way and completely buying into it because it goes against everything he learned and done in his experience. His experience comes from the Parcells tree and it's just too different. Even if he bought into it hook, line and sinker Mangini would be at a disadvantage by being new to the system just as Holmgren would be at a disadvantage overseeing a system in which he has no experience.


It's doubtful that Holmgren would allow his show to start out of the gate with either of them being at a disadvantage regarding the system employed. That spells a coaching change. A change to a HC who understands and has experience in Holmgren's way.

That goes for the GM too. A GM who has experience working with a draft team who drafts for that type of system.

It's the only way that makes sense to me.

Very well said!

I have been trying to say the same thing but in different words.

It brought some ridicule because of my opinion, but that's to be expected.

They have two different philosophies and Holmgren will bring in people from the top down that share his philosophy ( "his people" as they say).

It's like asking a General in the Army to run the Air Force you are building. Just doesn't make sense! (No disrepect to anyone just trying to make an analogy)

The team has shown some life here recently, but we aren't exactly looking like a dominant team. If it wasn't for Cribbs and Harrison having their career games we may not have won the last 2.

I'm as true of a Browns fan as you will find. I don't have an agenda. I'm just looking at the obvious.

Holmgren is given an open checkbook and a blank slate to build Lerner a winning organization. He has 5 years to do it. Holmgren is going to build this franchise based on his experiences and what he knows works. He will not handcuff himself with a coach that does not think like he does or know the system that Holmgren wants to implement.

If Holmgren wasn't hired to remodel this franchise than I'm sure Mangini would have gotten more time here. Now we're on a new path. Even if it's only one year after Mangini was hired we must follow Holmgren's path and that will mean without Mangini.

At this point what choice does EM have?
He has to appear agreeable to any change coming down the pike and he knows he's on a limb right now..he can't say anything that smacks of being resistant.

j/k

I have been tossing back and forth whether Mangini can work with and under Holmgren successfully. On one hand you have Mangini who was hired as GM coach and got rid of the so called “bad apples” but brought with him his backup jets squad to basically start for us. L
I hate when new people come in and get rid of players that can help but aren’t their kind of guy. That is a bad teacher and motivator. If Mangini was aloud to keep his GM title what kind of players do you think he would draft this year? Defense? Probably. I can’t believe I’m saying this but Mangini didn’t do a horrible job his first year. We all knew we weren’t going to win many games this year the fact players are talking good about the coach after everything that has happened makes me want to let him coach for his job again next year.

Now Holmgren, I know he is going to want the WCO and will bring in the type of players on offense that fit that scheme. If Mangini can coach with a “Holmgren guy” as his o-coordinator, and not be paranoid about being fired to much, Holmgren may be willing to let Mangini have some input on the type of defense and players they bring in. The guys Holmgren knows in GB run the 3-4 I don’t know why it wouldn’t be a possibility that we have both WCO and 3-4…. The best of both worlds right? But what if Holmgren will just want a 4-3 because he knows that type of player better? Mangini has no use, just let him go and get the guys in place now. Holmgren is smart he has learned from his mistakes as GM/Coach and my give Mangini a break because he knows what a mistake that is. But 4-3, 3-4 is really the big question for me. We still need playmakers either way so every branch of the team is going to have to work well together.

End of story. Mangini gone and “Place your Holmgren disciple here” in as HC along with a list of good position coaches and coordinators

Mangini was toast the moment Holmgren said in his media conference call that the 1 thing he has learned from being the boss in Seattle was to change thinks quicker...that was a death sentence if there ever was one

that...and Lerner's famous quote to bring in some "credible" leadership (what does that imply about the current regime?)

then the team gives the DC the gatorade bath instead of the "on the bubble" HC...

3 slaps in the face...1 each from the Owner, the new Czar and the players...he's gone

"EO...they mean nothing, sorry for busting yet another of your illusion bubbles about our beloved Browns...but they mean nothing"

Of course if they did mean anything it would only make you look the fool -- yeah you wouldn't have any motivation to down play the streak.

Cause where you are concerned if they did mean something - you're a flop in your Lord Of The Flies movement.

beloved Browns???? yep you show them loads of love - even in a 3 game winning streak. Sorry but I got less respect for you than before. Won't say what I think of ya cause I'd like to continue posting here. But keep on posting on this subject - all you are doing is exposing yourself for what you are. It takes a lot of balls to stick up for ones team and look at any positives out there...so I understand the route you took when we were 1-11 cause it made you actually look remotely intelligent to those who don't know better.

But now that we got a 3 game winning streak...you wish to tell all.

THESE 3 GAMES DON'T COUNT! DON'T BELIEVE WHAT YOU ARE SEEING IT IS A MIRAGE...as in a desperate effort to tell all here...NO I'M REALLY SMART - REALLY I AM, DON'T LEAVE ME, REALLY I'M SMART!

later keep on opening your mouth and exposing your none football!

For what it's worth,, that was a damn angry post there Eo....

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THESE 3 GAMES DON'T COUNT! DON'T BELIEVE WHAT YOU ARE SEEING IT IS A MIRAGE...as in a desperate effort to tell all here...NO I'M REALLY SMART - REALLY I AM, DON'T LEAVE ME, REALLY I'M SMART!

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.....Priceless!!

For what it's worth,, that was a damn angry post there Eo.

Actually I was trying to be funny...you never have seen me angry

I've taken a lot of crap this year looking for rays of sunshine for most the season!

Time for me to dish a little back

LOL Dude,, If that was funny, don't quit your day job

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You're forgetting the owner and Holmgren not attending the games and not meeting with Mangini face to face. To me that's numero uno.

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I'm pretty sure that Holmgren hasn't attended any games yet,, but are you absolutly sure that Lerner hasn't?

LOL Dude,, If that was funny, don't quit your day job

True, true, I wish I could be as funny as you...I've read your posts on Pure football


seriously...Have a Happy New Year all

Nice attempt at spin there, bud. Now, it's my turn:

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Mangini was toast the moment Holmgren said in his media conference call that the 1 thing he has learned from being the boss in Seattle was to change thinks quicker...that was a death sentence if there ever was one

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Or... it could mean that there will be quick changes in the scouting dept. or FO structure or the roster... and maybe coaching... Funny thing about predicting change- we can be sure it's coming, but we can't be sure what the change will be. Life's kinda like that, you know?

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that...and Lerner's famous quote to bring in some "credible" leadership (what does that imply about the current regime?)

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Who can say? Perhaps Lerner was referencing Policy/Clark, Davis, and Savage/Crennel... or have you forgotten how miserable the previous regimes were? Maybe it was a knock on Kokinis. Maybe it was an admission that he needed a leader other than himself. Why does it automatically have to be a "stiffy" for only Mangini & co.? So far, the only "implications" I can see are yours... and your cute (but not very subtle) use of quotation marks.

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then the team gives the DC the gatorade bath instead of the "on the bubble" HC...

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It was the defense (specifically) who gave Ryan his shower... to celibrate his successful game against his old team. Did you forget where he worked before coming here... or did you carefully omit this angle to support your anti-Mangini agenda?

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3 slaps in the face...1 each from the Owner, the new Czar and the players...he's gone.

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...or no slaps in anyone's face. Freud once said, "...yes.... and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."


See how that works? I may not even believe half of what I just wrote, but I can play the 'speculation game,' too. Spin is spin.

Look, Dawg... you can read anything into these circumstances you like, but the objective truth is that nobody knows for sure what Holmgren will do.

He may surprise you... but then, the way you've tipped your hand, I doubt that you'll find it a pleasant surprise.

We should play poker some time. Make sure to bring lots of money...

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Maybe I am way off base, but I don't think Mangini will mind all that much if others set the draft board because in the end, I doubt the boards would vary all that much.

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I am sure they would vary a great deal Peen, because they have two totally different philosophies. For instance, say they are looking for an OG...........Mangini would want a mauler whereas Mike and the GM he brings in would want the same type of athletic OL who can move in space.

As ddubia commented on, whether Mangini stays or not will have alot to do with his willingness to embrace the Holmgren philosophy.............and whether Holmgren buys the sincerity of his commitment.

I have to agree with the others who just don't see any way Mangini is here past next week. It has little to do with results or being fair, and everything to do with these two not lining up philosophically.

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As ddubia commented on, whether Mangini stays or not will have alot to do with his willingness to embrace the Holmgren philosophy.............and whether Holmgren buys the sincerity of his commitment.

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it's not just if he will embrace the Holmgren philosophy,, it's also that he needs to convince Holmgren that he can do the job. I mean, embracing it and running it with the precision I think it requires, 2 different things..

Thus my comment on if Holmgren believes in the sincerity of his embrace..lol. I honestly don't think Mangini is a bad coach.............I think he's actually a pretty good coach. The problem (and you kind of eluded to it) is that he has never coached for in a system like the one that MH will want to install. That has to make the precision that you spoke of much harder to come by.


Mangini has no choice but to give MH lip service, but again refering to ddub's post.....he has to convince MH that he's committed to the new philosophy, and he is capable of installing it as you alluded to. That my friend will be a very tough sale.

Again I have a hard time believing Mangini will be here beyond next week for this very reason.

You do not have to be a mauler to be successful in run blocking. Joe an ES are both very good in the running game, but no one would call them "maulers". They get by with their athleticism.

I should have said "more athletic" lineman that move well in space, because MH actually doesn't run a zone scheme. What he doesn't want is the lard asses who can't move in space. The guys you mentioned are very athletic, and can pull as good as anybody in this league.

I'm with you on what you also wrote regarding Mangini buying into Holmgren's philosphy. - That may be a problem - good point.

Regarding o-lineman -What sort of lineman do you consider Alex Mack - mauling type or athletic?

He's actually both...lol.......best of both worlds like Hutchinson. He can man his guy up, and has the strength to take on a NT man on man. He is also athletic enough to move in space and get down field. The kid is going to be really good if he continues to develop.

My point on Mangini preferring a "mauling" type of OL is based on his comments saying he wanted as much this off season, and the fact he told Steiny to gain more weight (dumb move............ES is good because of his athleticism not his ability to "maul" anyone). Historically, Holmgren has prefered OGs who are athletic and most essential.........can move well in space.

I only copied the part that pertains to the point....

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In other words, Holmgren may hire a general manager or even a coach, but his day-to-day responsibilities will not involve personnel matters such as the NFL draft or free agency. Instead, he’ll oversee business matters like ticketing and marketing along the lines of Dick Cass with the Baltimore Ravens, Tod Leiweke of the Seattle Seahawks and the Green Bay Packers’ Mark Murphy.

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The whole article is linked.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-holmgrenrooneyrule122209&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

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Instead, he’ll oversee business matters like ticketing and marketing

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Is there "anyone" that believes this?..

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The problem (and you kind of eluded to it) is that he has never coached for in a system like the one that MH will want to install

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Exactly,, Personally, I question whether or not it's in Manginis DNA to be able to coach what MH may want. And, reading between the lines listening to MH talk, I get the feeling that it's his way or the highway. I think he was paying lipservice to the thought of letting Mangini try and convince him of anything.

None of this is a slam on Mangini,, it's just that he was brought up with a different idea of how a team should be run.. Not a bad idea, just a different one from MH.

I read something funny this morning concerning Mangini's presser yesterday... Mangini was asked if he had a New Year's resolution?

Mangini pretended to be writing a note and said.."Dear guys, no bus rides to Hartford."

Here the AP story..

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Mangini staying cool, makes funny New Year's resolution
Associated Press


BEREA, Ohio -- For a coach on the hot seat, Eric Mangini is acting pretty cool.

Mangini will learn next week if he'll be back for a second season with the Cleveland Browns after meeting on Monday or Tuesday with new team president Mike Holmgren. The Browns (4-11) have won three straight heading into Sunday's season finale against Jacksonville.

On Wednesday, Mangini was asked if he had made any resolutions for New Year's.

He pretended to write a note. "Dear guys," he said, scribbling an imaginary pen into the podium. "No bus rides to Hartford."

He was referring to a 10-hour bus trip he made Cleveland's rookies take to his football camp in Connecticut, an outing that brought him criticism.

Copyright 2009 by The Associated Press

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http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5...mp;confirm=true

C'mon, Peen, if they don't do anything to the Redskins they won't do anything to us.

Hell, when all is said and done they (Redskins) will have hired 2 key positions in the FO without really adhering to the Rooney Rule.

They have bigger fish to fry trying to get the owners all in agreement about a new CBA.

I don't think anyone is saying he will have control over ONLY Ticketing and Marketing.. that's just some of various departments that will come under his control.

it may just be semantics, but if he's president of the club, EVERYTHING comes under his control. I read that to mean Football Operations as well.

I hope you are wrong Peen.. I hope you are reading more into it than there actually is. Remember, one of the best lawyers in the country and one who is intimately knowledgable about the workings of the NFL is advising Lerner. I have to think that he's thought of most if not all of the ramifications of this move..

In fact, I would not be one bit surprised to learn that Nance had conversations with the league regarding this matter before the Holmgren hiring..

I guess I don't understand the Rooney Rule. If President does not fall under the Rule than I don't see a problem at all. If MH hires a GM & they choose a HC and then MH say's in a meeting about the draft that he wants them to draft all punters, then what's the big deal? Please explain this to me.

I am pretty sure the browns complied with the rooney rule when they interviewed Fred Nance. The guy was almost commisioner of the NFL and you gotta think its like hey anta interview for President of the Browns while you interview for General Council The statement about holmgren just running the buisness side of the thing is nonsense.