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I hated Kornheiser. He tried to be too much like Brett Musburger, with all the drama, and story-telling.
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Fire him. Why did we hire a head coach before a GM any how? Mangini took credit all season for the hiring of Kokinis. The tail has been wagging the dog all season long. IMHO, Mangini was--is the GM and responsible for most of the off season guffaws prior to this season. Secondly, his staff needs to be gutted. Ryan is on the fence. Seally? I don't know what exactly his duties or impact was on the team as the assistant head coach. With Josh Cribbs on your special teams...well...he makes any special teams coach look like a genius. Daboll needs executed. The rest of them are all sitting on pins and needles right now. So...if MH comes in and sits down with EM and says, "He goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he stays, he goes, he stays..." And he's gutting the guys coaching staff, then why keep the HC? He put those guys in there. And if MH is going to pick his staff for him and next season doesn't pan out...it really wouldn't be fair to fire EM then would it?  As I've stated before when the question comes up about the end of the season...it wasn't EM that made the difference. The difference was in the fact that so many of our starters were out from injuries and young guys, or players we saw absolutely nothing from for most of the season had to be activated or play. Those guys played their hearts out for the joy of playing and the hope of earning a starting job --- not for EM. Where were those guys before? Lewis had nothing in the tank from game 1. Shake his hand, cut him loose, pay him for leaving and start fresh. With all the turmoil and problems that occurred this season within the team, between EM and players...cut him loose and hopefully, he'll find a spot somewhere in which he can be functional, learn, and grow and maybe take a HC spot again some day. His credentials and resume were horribly thin from day one.
Never have hope. You won’t be disappointed.
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Ryan is on the fence? really?
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Ryan on the fence?? We went from 17 sacks to 39 this year. You give him better players, this defense will be a force.
Mangini went 5-11, not 1-15, the way you make it sound. Go look at the 1st year head coaches this year. Mangini made a 1 game improvement. Denver went 8-8 same as last year, St Louis went 1-15, a 1 game decrease, Kc is about to go 4-12, a 2 game improvement, Lions went 2-14, a 2 game improvement, Jets can't do better than 9-7 record from last year, and Seattle only could improve by 2 games.
Mangini did just about good as anyone as far as record for 1st year coaches this year.
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[quoteWhy did we hire a head coach before a GM any how? Mangini took credit all season for the hiring of Kokinis. The tail has been wagging the dog all season long. IMHO, Mangini was--is the GM and responsible for most of the off season guffaws prior to this season. ]
Ok First of all, this kind of stuff won't be his responsiblility any more
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Secondly, his staff needs to be gutted. Ryan is on the fence. Seally? I don't know what exactly his duties or impact was on the team as the assistant head coach. With Josh Cribbs on your special teams...well...he makes any special teams coach look like a genius. Daboll needs executed. The rest of them are all sitting on pins and needles right now.
You really believe that Cribbs is the only reason for ST success? Honestly?
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As I've stated before when the question comes up about the end of the season...it wasn't EM that made the difference. The difference was in the fact that so many of our starters were out from injuries and young guys, or players we saw absolutely nothing from for most of the season had to be activated or play. Those guys played their hearts out for the joy of playing and the hope of earning a starting job --- not for EM. Where were those guys before? Lewis had nothing in the tank from game 1.
and we have seen that from backups before? i can't remember RAC's guys coming in and doing an awesome job as backups(when he had 4 yrs. compared to 1) Lewis is a bum, but RAC didn't give JH a chance either.
With other HC probabilities out there I don't see any upgrades.JMO
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Whatever happens is gonna happen without them asking me, but I would like to Say........ Mangini, coachs & Players....Thank-You...this is the most fun I've had in December in a long time, Everyone played hard & never quit for that we fans thank-you and respect your effort. The last 4 weeks have been great watching our team strp up thier chin straps, & run the ball down peoples throats & on Def. watching you guys smack somebody in the mouth, it's been awhile & it's fun.....Lets do it again all next year....Thanks  Go Browns
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I think Mangini should stay too. I remember when Tom Coughlin was hired in NY . His "rules" didn't go over too well at first with players and the media. Mangini has definitely made some mistakes early in the year. But he turned it around. And they were in position to win more than the 5 games they won. The last 4 weeks it seems like they were playing on a completely different level. They look like a different team than before the bye.
The excuse that they beat crappy teams from people who don't like Mangini, is just that...an excuse. A win is a win. The team Mangini coached beat Pittsburgh, won 4 in a row, beat KC away for the first time in years....these are not things to be taken lightly. These are great accomplishments in a losing season.
If Holmgren fires Mangini I'll be disappointed for sure. I'd like to see Mangini have one more year.
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You gotta be fair, Rish.
Koko was Mangini's hand-picked guy. Whose fault is it if the guy you chose to do a job failed?
The only excuse is that Mangini lied to him by saying he'd have final say over decisions, but the problem there is that ...........well...........that's still Mangini *L*
but, but........
has the Koko and the other person's firing made an impact on the franchise?
If, it has, please explain.
IMO, that situation has zero net effect one way or another.
No harm = no foul
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Zero net-effect? Really?
The net-effect is Holmgren. If the move of Kok worked out, Holmgren wouldn't be here.
There is no "no-harm no-foul" because when you evaluate someone, you evaluate everything they do, not just the things that we lucked-out of or lucked-into.
What you're suggesting is akin to not holding Mangini responsible for screwing up the QB situation at the start of the year based on the end result of the QB's. That isn't the point. The point is that a mistake in judgment is still a mistake.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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If your a Mangini sympathizer the good news is that the 4 game winning streak probably prevented him from "retiring at his young age. He will get a coordinator job somewhere.
The bad news is that he won't be here after Tuesday.......for the reasons already mentioned in this thread. It might not be right, but it is what it is.
Last edited by BigWillieStyle; 01/03/10 08:33 PM.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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again, those kind of responsibilities are not gonna be Mangini's anymore so who cares?
To me, what he needs to be evaluated on is his "coaching" because the other aspects are gonna be manned by other people. In that case I think he is a good coach.
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stay on topic. we are discussing the Kokinis deal.  So you are saying that hiring Holmgren is a negative effect? That is what it sounds like you are saying foul= the kokinis hiring and firing harm = the Holmgen hiring oh, and you can use that as an excuse to fire Mangini,if there was wrongdoing. and Mangini still gets paid BTW
Last edited by Line Judge; 01/03/10 08:40 PM.
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Just in case you're curious, Peter King said that it is "60-40 that Mangini is gone"
you had a good run Hank.
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j/c
Winning cures all right? Half way through the season people wanted to take Mangini fishing and now a four game win streak including a win over Pitt has fans balking.
I guess that's why I love football . . . it's that emotional roller coaster from month to month.
I hated the Mangini hire, would not care if they dumped him next week, though to be fair a coach needs more than one season. Still, I think Holmgren will want to do things his way and that means his type of people.
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If you're going to judge an entire body of work the Kokenis issue is major.
He hired him. Great guy, good friends etc. Then...
1. He either wasn't a good choice, was a complete screw up who hid and shirked his duties and Lerner found him out.
2. You brought him in and either A) covered for his ineptness or B) emasculated him, swiped his power to feed your own power hunger. Either way when the going got tough you bent him over the table, threw him under the bus and Saved your own butt.
Either would give me some clue as to how well you operated within an organization. Number one may have been a mistake, two is unforgiveable.
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I would say it's probably higher than that. I mean if you boss pays a man 50 million dollars, becuase he has lost faith in your ability to do what he hired you for (less than a year ago) that speaks volumes.
Why would MH put his future plans in the hands of someone who doesn't share his philosophy?? That's what it boils down to............they are very different philosophically. It might not be fair, but EM is unemployed this time next week.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Well,..If MH is the great football mind he's claimed to be,...Mangini is safe. This team is poised to make some serious noise next year,....with a good draft the playoffs should not only be a possibility,..but an expectation. If MH intends to bring in a new coach, anything short of a playoff appearance will be considered a HUGE failure on his behalf.
He will not be able to use the "lack of talent" card, because Mangini proved he could make a good team in what we had THIS year. Compile that with him not being able to vastly improve this team with the draft and F/A alone,....that will deliver him a black eye that will cause him to be scrutinized in a way he definately will not appreciate.
The risk vs. reward will not weigh in his favor if he blows up this coaching staff. He knows this and will definately give Mangini AT LEAST another year.
Next year will have to look more promising from the get go in order to overshadow the momentum we've already established now.
Lerner brought MH here to not make the stupid moves this franchise has been doing for so long.
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I'm still waiting to hear a real explanation on how the Kokinis deal should have any impact on whether or not Mangini stays ...
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I want Mangini to stay. He started yet another rebuild this year and he was able to turn things around by the end of the season. We are actually playing respectable ball even with all the injuries. The start of the season was a disaster but I think we came out stronger for going through it.
Of course if Holgrem and Mangini just don't see eye to eye it is a moot point. I will be pissed if we break everything down again next year.
#gmstrong
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Just listening to the Mangini presser ... did he get a shower? I know I saw a lot of players hugging him toward the end.
But the anti-Mangini guys can take the 'no gatorade shower' off their list now ... LOL ...
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Quote:
I'm still waiting to hear a real explanation on how the Kokinis deal should have any impact on whether or not Mangini stays ...
Here goes,,,,,
he won't be doing anything but coaching if he is here next year so.....
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LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I will trust in whatever the Big Show does unless it involves keeping Daboll. If that happens i will wonder if he has gone senile.
Looks like they are going to meet on Tuesday so there wont be too long of a wait. Guess a lot depends on who Holmgren is calling on Monday lol Mike Sherman hmm
Man this is the biggest week for Browns fans since the announcement of getting a team back.
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I mean it's akin to an auto mechanic going to apply for an auto mechanics job and getting turned down because he wasn't much of a salesman when he sold cars. 
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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They were hoping for pneumonia.
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Like everyone else I have no clue what's going to happen although I do believe that EM is going to get his walking papers. Something I did notice is that Mooch isn't on the NFL Channel's highlight show tonight, hmmm? 
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
stay on topic.
we are discussing the Kokinis deal.
I was staying on topic. You switched topics.
Big difference 
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So you are saying that hiring Holmgren is a negative effect?
That is what it sounds like you are saying
No, I'm saying the hiring of Holmgren is the end-result of a negative effect.
Action, reaction..........cause, and effect.
The negative action was Mangini's hiring, management, interaction, and subsequent firing of Kok. The reaction is the hiring of Holgren.
The reaction wouldn't have been necessary without the action.
So, because Kok was Mangini's hand-picked guy, Mangini is held responsible for the end-result. That end result was negative, so Kok was fired and Mangini has to bare the cross.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
They were hoping for pneumonia.
The players? That's pretty funny.
There was some genuine like going on. Of course, winning helps. But maybe these guys were starting to buy in.
Mangini spoke of building relationships in his pressers ... that kind of thing takes time.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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If he tries to put Chrysler parts in a GM it's a bad fit, bad decision.
Kokenis was EM's guy, his hire it's a reflection of his decision making process. I'll look at a guys decision making if I'm Holmgren and putting my rep out there.
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and the whole situation hurt the franchise how?????
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Quote:
If he tries to put Chrysler parts in a GM it's a bad fit, bad decision.
As the ongoing mechanic of this team, that will no longer be his call. But keep trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. If you push hard enough, it will eventually go in ... and you'll have a flock of folks around here following you because they want so badly for that peg to fit.
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Kokenis was EM's guy, his hire it's a reflection of his decision making process. I'll look at a guys decision making if I'm Holmgren and putting my rep out there.
I'm only interested in EM's decision making as a coach ... that's all he'll be doing.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Quote:
I'm still waiting to hear a real explanation on how the Kokinis deal should have any impact on whether or not Mangini stays ...
If I told you I graduated #1 in a class of 500 from Princeton, you'd evaluate my viability for a job one way.
If I told you I just got out of prison for embezzlement and indecency with a child, you'd evaluate my viability for that same job another way.
What difference does it make what I did as long as I'm qualified for the job?
That's how the Kok situation impacts Mangini's viability going into next year.
Yes, that's a gross exaggeration, but the principal applies: If Mangini isn't good at making major decisions, he isn't good at making major decisions. His judgment must be brought into question, and as such, all his decisions must be evaluated.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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You're just digging yourself deeper with that latest gem of an explanation.
May advice to you would be to just stop.
You can't win every battle.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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But if those decisions are largely eliminated from his job description and it comes down to how well he is teaching and motivating the players for game day we're in an entirely different conversation.
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Quote:
If he tries to put Chrysler parts in a GM it's a bad fit, bad decision.
As the ongoing mechanic of this team, that will no longer be his call. But keep trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. If you push hard enough, it will eventually go in ... and you'll have a flock of folks around here following you because they want so badly for that peg to fit.
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Kokenis was EM's guy, his hire it's a reflection of his decision making process. I'll look at a guys decision making if I'm Holmgren and putting my rep out there.
I'm only interested in EM's decision making as a coach ... that's all he'll be doing.
Then I suppose it'd shock you if I said I'd like to see Mangini stick and suceed? Because I really would.
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and the whole situation hurt the franchise how?????
Are we going off-topic again?
By reacting to a failed situation, Lerner installed a Czar. Because he installed a Czar, that man is going to install his own people.
So, how does that hurt the franchise? It becomes difficult to install your own people while retaining someone else's people who work under a different philosophy. Furthermore, it hurts the franchise's credibility because it brings into question Mangini's overall evaluation ability going forward.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Unless there's some stud HC out there that Holmgren is doing backflips over that WANTS to coach here, I can't see Mangini getting fired.
1. Holmgren wants improvement and progress when he evaluates the 2009 team.
Playing terrible and then turning it on at the end of the year, with multiple players hurt, to end with a 4 game win streak is certainly some solid progress. We've steadily gotten better on both sides of the ball.
2. Holmgren is a big opponent of blowing up things and starting from scratch.
We pretty much turned over the roster once. Bringing in a new coach with a new philosophy and scheme would probably mean more of the same.
3. Holmgren said he doesn't like firing a coach after only 1 season.
Though he said he could end up doing it, I think Mangini has this team playing well and believing it can win, something the team last year at this same time didn't believe at all.
If someone goes, it could be Daboll in order to get the guy Holmgren wants to implement the WCO. He sounded pretty confident in his system and said unless a coach could strongly convince him to go against his system, he would prefer to run it.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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As would I.
But that has nothing to do with me sticking up for him in regards to Kok. With the addition of MH and the future role of any coach on this team, it doesn't matter.
Some will have you believe that it does. It doesn't.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I'm not trying to "win" anything here (I save that for people like Mac  ). You have asked for explanation why all that applies to Mangini, so I replied. *shrug*
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
But if those decisions are largely eliminated from his job description and it comes down to how well he is teaching and motivating the players for game day we're in an entirely different conversation.
Ummmm.............I wouldn't say that, as much as I'd say the effect of questionable decision making is lessened. That ties in with my belief that if there existed a GM who was not installed by Mangini, and that if Mangini were only a head coach, he'd actually stand a better than even chance of being retained. However, as I've said before, because Holmgren was brought in to build the entire football operation in his own image, that greatly reduces the viability of Mangini as a head coach, primarily because he's being stripped of all his power, and at least on offense is going to create a conflict-of-interest, as it's going to be all WCO guys picked by Holmgren, and if Mangini gets out of line with them, they can simply go over his head.
Keep in mind I'm of two separate opinions here: The odds of keeping Mangini based solely on his coaching, and the odds of keeping him if the situation existed where Mangini wasn't responsible for all the decisions within the organization, resulting in the hiring of Holmgren.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mangini Won 4 in a Row..Now what?
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