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That situation did not lose us one game,draft pick or even credibility.No one outside of this board gives a crap and the only ones here that care are all Mangini haters and using it as an excuse to take him fishing ( I liked that  ) If the effect of the situation was to have Holmgren hired to oversee football operations, I see that as a positive net effect. Mangini did the franchise a favor 
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Here is to my dream team....
EM-HC
Mooch-OC
Ryan-DC
Seely-ST
Alot of people would say why keep EM,,,,
and I will ask the same question, why not?
Are you gonna bring up the deadbate QB controsersy (with neither being a good QB)
His personel decisions considering past "NFL" coaches ( I know some think they are smarter than past regimes)
Or the fact that he has brought together a team of "misfits" and delivered a winner? Forget the competion argument, KC wasn't very good but PITT and OAK aren't decent or at least better than CLE?
Where past teams have used injuries as excuse, this team hasn't, I may not be in the majority, but I love this toughness and desire. Whocares who's feelings it hurts. Quit being soft and get on board with the toughness that is being installed.
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I think our signals are now crossed, as you're viewing this from the positive of the hiring of Holmgren, while I'm coming from the angle that Mangini's choice and handling of Kok was a negative.
If you would have told me last year that we'd hire a coach, struggle through a bad year, which resulted in bringing him Holmgren to rebuild the organization and installing the WCO, I'd have flown to Cleveland and picked up Mangini myself!
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I have seen all kinds of wild speculation here.
Mangini is gone
WCO
fire all the coaches
4-3 defense.
Holmgren becomes coach
Chucky coach
Mooch coach
Cowher coach
you get the idea
Ever think that maybe the only thing that Holmgren does is hire a GM and makes certain the train stays on the tracks?
Less might be more
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How's this for how I feel:
If Holmgren doesn't install some version of the WCO, I'll delete my user account and change my name to CoachB. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Not sure why you're reply is to me and asking me all these questions.
I could swear I posted above that I wanted to see Mangini continue on!
I don't like a number of things about him but I'm sure that'd cover about any coach we've had or will have.
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Quote:
I have seen all kinds of wild speculation here.
Mangini is gone
WCO
fire all the coaches
4-3 defense.
Holmgren becomes coach
Chucky coach
Mooch coach
Cowher coach
you get the idea
Ever think that maybe the only thing that Holmgren does is hire a GM and makes certain the train stays on the tracks?
Less might be more
I think Holmgren is going to be a mix between the two.
I also think Holmgren is going to probably clean house and then take it one step, albeit quick step, at a time. He'll hire a GM, probably quickly, then they will decide who to bring on as coach, who to keep, so on and so forth.
Either way, we don't know because Holmgren can do whatever he wants.
you had a good run Hank.
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Maybe I'm not remembering this right, but here it goes: After Savage and Romeo were both let go last year, it came to light that Savage was sticking his nose into who Romeo was hiring as assistant coaches. Savage caught a lot of flak on here for that. Would it be any different if MH came in and demanded EM get rid of coaches? I think a head coach has a right to choose who he wants to be on the sideline with him; it's his butt on the line if they don't succeed. And the only way the team can really succeed is if all the coaches are on the same page. So, it's my opinion that MH must look at the coaching staff as a whole, not just individual coaches. Just firing the offensive coaches and replacing them with his own guys will cause a rift in the coaching staff (although some of the looks Ryan gave at the beginning of the year made me think he already hated the offensive coaches ) Mangini put his butt on the line when he hired Daboll as the OC, and it back-fired. The Browns looked like a HS team on offense the first 10 weeks, and there's no excuse for that, even with the lack of talent. The only way Mangini comes back next year is if he walks into Holmgren's office Tuesday, and his first words are: "I'm getting rid of Daboll, and I'm willing to listen to you're suggestions for an offensive coaching staff. Hopefully, we can work something out that we're both comfortable with."
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Ummmm.............I wouldn't say that, as much as I'd say the effect of questionable decision making is lessened. That ties in with my belief that if there existed a GM who was not installed by Mangini, and that if Mangini were only a head coach, he'd actually stand a better than even chance of being retained. However, as I've said before, because Holmgren was brought in to build the entire football operation in his own image, that greatly reduces the viability of Mangini as a head coach, primarily because he's being stripped of all his power, and at least on offense is going to create a conflict-of-interest, as it's going to be all WCO guys picked by Holmgren, and if Mangini gets out of line with them, they can simply go over his head.
Keep in mind I'm of two separate opinions here: The odds of keeping Mangini based solely on his coaching, and the odds of keeping him if the situation existed where Mangini wasn't responsible for all the decisions within the organization, resulting in the hiring of Holmgren.
While your particular style is much more verbose than mine, we appear to be in somewhat of an agreement. The fact that MH is going to redo this organization in his own image doesn't necessary preclude EM from the conversation of being the HC as that position is formed in the image MH sees it being and I can't imagine that being anything similar to what it has been in 09.
If MH is really fair about this decision he is going to base it on what functions he needs EM to perform and the interpersonal relationships he currently has within the organization. We can both agree the offense is going in a different direction but again this hardly precludes EM from the conversation if MH feels he can adapt and how well he can adapt.
Finally we also have to follow the money. Keeping EM is going to be much easier on Lerner's checkbook as currently he's paying a lot of people to not do anything for this organization. While not necessarily a game changer I do feel it's a viable consideration.
#GMSTRONG
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toad, with the kok deal, you don't think someone like holmgren could see it as mangini recognizing something wouldn't work and moved swiftly to address it, even though kok was a good friend? now i don't see it that way but i think it's be reasonable for someone to think that. i just don't see the kok hiring/firing as an absolute negative mark on mangini.
as with the qb handling, i don't think mangini wanted either qb to start. when it comes down to it, and it was mentioned, it just doesn't matter how he did it. the more reps wouldn't help, they each got plenty if they were good qbs. one of them would've gotten more reps if he was a good qb too. being new and trying to pick the best player, i don't hold it against mangini to split the reps evenly against the two.
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Quote:
If the effect of the situation was to have Holmgren hired to oversee football operations, I see that as a positive net effect.
Mangini did the franchise a favor
If you own a company and hire me to run it and I screw it up I've forced you to now go out and spend some really big bucks to bring in someone who can run it right.
Then, I not only ask to keep my job, though a lesser role, I also ask for a raise because by my failing it caused you to bring in someone who can run it right.
So give me the raise because I did you a favor.
I think that if we brought in Mangini as a coach only in the first place then we could keep him now if we felt he did a good job. But by having brought him in to run the whole show he's created so much controversy, bad negative press, made horribly bad personnel decisions in that expanded role that he's more of a distraction to Holmgren's new regime that it just might be best to wipe that slate clean regardless of how the team won out and why they did.
I think Mangini is a good coach. If only he'd have stuck to that and not over reached his potential. Everyone rises to their level of incompetency and I think that's what Mangini did here. Unfortunately, having done that here it doesn't bode well for his continued stay.
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Rish, if you think Holmgren isn't going to look at everything Mangini has done in the last year you're kidding yourself. Either that or you're spending way too much time in the sun on the way to the sports book every day..... 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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First, Tulsa, yeah, I can agree with you on that. As for being "verbose" I learned a long time ago around here that it's better to be long-winded once than to be forced to go back two and even three times to clarify a position, hehehe.
Dong, I get what you're saying about the Kok situation, and would agree, except that it was Mangini who apparently was part of the problem, as he ultimately had final decision making on personnel, despite the fact he lured Kok here under those pretenses. So even though it could be viewed that he reacted quickly to correct a problem, that doesn't excuse the fact that he himself was part of the problem.
It's kinda like you setting a house on fire with a bottle-rocket: The cops won't care that you helped try and put it out.
About the QB's, splitting reps wasn't the problem. I was actually FOR the competition. The problem was that instead of giving Quinn the reps during the last game, Mangini didn't give either guy reps. God knows Quinn should have gotten them. We knew it then. We certainly know it now.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Here's how Tuesday's discussion is going to go....
Holmgren: Eric, I'm bringing in the WCO as you could see my GM (guy from Seattle or GB) comes from that style as do I and I think if you look across the league that there is a great amount of success for those teams that run it. With that said, I need you to fire your offensive staff
Mangini: I'm not comfortable doing that. If you look at the process, we've been successful the last 4 weeks as we've got the correct personnel and the team bought into the process.
Holmgren: You're fired
In all seriousness, I don't see how two headstrong guys with totally different opinions on football can co-exist. In order for this to happen, Mangini would have to be a bigger man then I think he is. He'd have to give up say in all personnel decisions or at the very least have his say greatly diminished to the new GM and Holmgren. Can he do that? Sure...will he....that's another question. I think he deserves a chance to just be a head coach and not the defacto GM/President. I think the offense does need a new staff brought in and that's where I think Mangini will be caught up and probably let go. Also I think Holmgren likes attacking offenses and a Mangini coach team may never get there....
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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Actually, it's going to go like this.............
"Eric.................ERIC!..............get...........get your lips off my shoes! That isn't going to help, and for Gods-sakes man, get up off your knees and show some damned self-respect!!!"
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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Quote:
Actually, it's going to go like this.............
"Eric.................ERIC!..............get...........get your lips off my shoes! That isn't going to help, and for Gods-sakes man, get up off your knees and show some damned self-respect!!!"
Seriously with that belly do you really think he can get his lips down that far?
#GMSTRONG
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Dude, he's probably earning $3 million as the head coach of the Browns. As a coordinator, he'll earn less than $1 million.
You'd be surprised at just how low you can grovel for $2 million dollars!
He'd be doin' The Worm across the carpet for that kind of money!
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Don't forget he'll being paid $4M no matter what next year whether he coaches the Browns or lies on his couch all week.
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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Lerner isn't mike Brown. He doesn't care about how much money it takes to fix things.
If Holmgren says to Mangini "You're fired!" Lerner will already have the funds in Mangini's checking account.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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but you said his groveling will be because he doesn't want to get fired and take a pay cut....he won't be taking a pay cut for the next 3 years....
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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There are many ways to keep a coach from getting full money. It usually means some sort of buyout. They also can't get back into coaching if they want to collect the amount owed in a contract.
Shannahan collected from the Donks this year, but as soon as he takes the 'Skins job, the Donks won't have to keep paying him.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
as with the qb handling, i don't think mangini wanted either qb to start. when it comes down to it, and it was mentioned, it just doesn't matter how he did it. the more reps wouldn't help, they each got plenty if they were good qbs. one of them would've gotten more reps if he was a good qb too. being new and trying to pick the best player, i don't hold it against mangini to split the reps evenly against the two.
I think a big part of that issue is something like what Toad is saying, he took too long to make his decision. Even if he didn't like either QB and was having a difficult time making up his mind. He should have taken charge and made that decision two weeks earlier than he did. By dragging it out, in the name of surprising the opponent with the decision of who would start, he did not allow his starter to get acclimated to the role.
If he's experienced enough to know that it could possibly be an advantage by not disclosing his starter to the opponent then he should also have the experience to know that the Vikes couldn't have cared less, which negated any possible advantage.
This was not an issue of starting Big Ben or Tom Brady. It was between two QB's of whom it was common knowledge neither was doing particularly well. If you think about it: If Mangini saw the two QB's as essentially equal and was quoted as saying that many times throughout training camp, then what did he think the Vikes saw then as, the dynamic duo?
Even Holmgren made reference to this QB situation ...
"'This I know, when you're kind of juggling two guys, it becomes very hard for both of them and at times hard for the team.''
ohio.com
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Just clickin on your post Toad,
I wanted to say something regarding the slamming going on for the QB competitions.
First, I'm not for QB competitions in general. but I think this topic is irrelivant. no matter what choice he made it would have been wrong. Especially since neither guy at the time seemed to be able to do the job. If he picked Quinn people would have blamed EM for not choosing the former pro bowl DA. If he started DA would would've slammed him for not starting the young 1st round franchise QB to be. Now he gets blamed for the competition.
Being that neither guy really took advantage of opportunity and truely secure the job, Eric may be smarter that we all give him credit for by not backing either mediocre guy.
Bottom line is both guys had potential and neither one shined brightly.
Anderson proved these last games that he is done.
Quinn showed that he wasn't ready, but still has potential to be solid, just probably not super star.
"He who buys what he does not need steals from himself."
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j/c because i can't all the responses
We had a Major Improvement in the team towards the end of the year.
I don't see MH getting rid of Mangini. I see a major overhaul in the Offense though. Get rid of Daboll. Find an OC that fits MH's mold. Find supporting coaches. Find a GM <-----very important.
But yeah, those two things, new Offensive coaches, new GM...and we will be good. Mangini has put a good ethic in this team and proved a lot by winning out with what he had. I think he sticks around. And even MH has said a HC needs more than one year..........
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sorry mutt should have said j/c..
but anyways, I am not sure on this "open checkbook" to MH thing. I know past occurences are against me, but sooner or later it has to catch up with ya. I think to dismiss dollar signs in this discussion is kind of absurd.
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i think it's an assumption that he dragged anything out in the name of surprise. i think mangini took a long time to choose the lesser evil and felt the final reps in game 4, which is supposed to be a courtesy walkthrough for starters, were pointless considering how much info he probably had for both qbs. think about it. he had otas, he had training camp, he had the other preseason games. a few throws in a meaningless game wasn't going to provide anything new. to take it a step farther, if i were mangini at the time and i knew i was going with brady, i want him to throw LESS in any game tape so my first few opponents have less tape on him to gameplan around. the more i think of it, the more i bet that was the real reason.
i do remember the holmgren quote but the context he spoke of it was more like the opposite of savage's "having two qbs is a good thing" attitude as it was his take on how the offseason was handled. jmho
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Quote:
First, I'm not for QB competitions in general. but I think this topic is irrelivant. no matter what choice he made it would have been wrong. Especially since neither guy at the time seemed to be able to do the job. If he picked Quinn people would have blamed EM for not choosing the former pro bowl DA. If he started DA would would've slammed him for not starting the young 1st round franchise QB to be. Now he gets blamed for the competition.
This bears repeating again....
they both suck would it have mattered, none of the talking heads are bringing this up now.
I know a lot of posters on here are self proclaimed scouts, but I will take the advice of 2 regimes and say that neither is surefire starters. (reading between the lines since neither regime could decide)
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Quote:
First, I'm not for QB competitions in general. but I think this topic is irrelivant.
Quote from Holmgren one post above yours ...
"'This I know, when you're kind of juggling two guys, it becomes very hard for both of them and at times hard for the team.''
I think it played out exactly as MH described it. The the nit-picking of the details by myself and others is what is irrelavant. The outcome of the lack of making the decison and the handling of it overall is what was damaging in the two ways MH described.
#gmstrong
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That quote can also read the other way, which is that neither guy could take the job, and thus the situation itself and not the handling of the QB's was the unfortunate part.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
That quote can also read the other way, which is that neither guy could take the job, and thus the situation itself and not the handling of the QB's was the unfortunate part.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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The plan is to see the sun come up tomorrow..............
..............unless it doesn't.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Ugh ... I think that's a mistake.
But it's what I'm expecting.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Well, watching the video makes it seem much more of a done deal than my words.
Sounds like Mangini is going to have to really pitch himself to Holmgren to stay here. I honestly think Mangini is gone no matter what...
you had a good run Hank.
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They better not fire Mangini or I will be completely pissed off. If they do they are completely blind. But I don't think they are. MH is smarter than that.
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They better not fire Mangin or I will be completely pissed off.
If they do they are completely blind. But I don't think they are.
My how much of the fanbase has change on a 4 game stretch...
Mangini did some good things, but he deserves to be fired for plenty of things he has done.
you had a good run Hank.
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J/W where does he get this from, haven't really heard any damning evidence from anywhere else.
Snatching from EO here... just another "Bozo's take"
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As in what ? He deserves to be fired for pulling the team together and building them up for winning out 4 games in a row ? Do you know what kind of team in dis-array he had when he started ? What kind of loser mentality he had to change ? Dude should not be fired. He turned the team around with the limited resources he had. I believe in him.
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As in what ? He deserves to be fired for pulling the team together and building them up for winning out 4 games in a row ? Do you know what kind of team in dis-array he had when he started ? What kind of loser mentality he had to change ? Dude should not be fired. He turned the team around with the limited resources he had. I believe in him.
He also alienated players, alienated fans, pissed off the owner and had consolidated power into making himself the King of Cleveland. He also mishandled that QB situation, mishandled a lot of his players and started off 1-11, if you do not remember. Taking his entire situation into view, yes, he deserves to be fired.
If you want my honest take...I think he lied to Randy Lerner about what he was going to do and Lerner is pissed at him.
As for the "just another bozo's take", it's Jay Glazer and he's almost in Adam Schefter like territory. Glazer is much more right than he is wrong.
Then again, I understand some older people don't trust any media members. Personally, I think Glazer has it dead on.
Last edited by Thebigbaddawg; 01/03/10 11:50 PM.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
i do remember the holmgren quote but the context he spoke of it was more like the opposite of savage's "having two qbs is a good thing" attitude as it was his take on how the offseason was handled. jmho
You can click on the link to see the context of which he made his statement. There's no trick nor nothing to be read between the lines. Neither was he discussing philosophies regarding the roster or the number of QB's to carry.
''This I know, when you're kind of juggling two guys, it becomes very hard for both of them and at times hard for the team.''
If you think juggling two quarterbacks is not hard for both of them and consequently, at times, hard for the team too, then you're not giving it enough thought.
If the thought you are giving it is in the defending of Mangini by brushing away his mis-handling of our QB's as insignificant to the QB's and the team;s development and preparation for the upcoming season, then I feel you are just stuck on your initial assessment and are trying to defend that too without really giving it enough thought with an open mind. jmho
If I'm going to try and interpret what he is saying without reading between the lines I think he is saying to make a decision so you can stop juggling both guys. That way it will be less hard for both of them as they settle into their roles. And, consequently, less hard for the team who would otherwise have to play, at times, with two different QB's as the starter.
Now comes my opinion: Name your starting QB with enough time left that he can get used to his role and the team can get used to who the starting QB is before the real games start. That is only to say to give them time to prepare for the season rather than delaying it down to final few days for whatever reason.
Starters are usually named by the third pre-season game and that QB gets the majority of the snaps in that game and a series or two in the final game. Not that it's set in stone but it makes sense on so many levels that juggling it down to the last couple of days seems counter productive if you hope to be prepared for the opening game.
#gmstrong
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