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He also alienated players
Maybe at first, but it doesn't seem that way now. MKC put out an article where several players including Wimbley, Vickers, Cribbs, Thomas, and Bowens all expressed desire for Mangini to stay. I don't think the 'alienation' carries as much weight now as it did earlier in the season ... and it can also be viewed as a necessary evil in getting this turned around.
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If you want my honest take...I think he lied to Randy Lerner about what he was going to do and Lerner is pissed at him.
I believe Lerner is hoping Holmgren retains Mangini. That's just my take.
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As for the "just another bozo's take", it's Jay Glazer and he's almost in Adam Schefter like territory. Glazer is much more right than he is wrong.
Then again, I understand some older people don't trust any media members. Personally, I think Glazer has it dead on.
Unfortunately, I believe in the smoke and fire saying ... and I think it's a shame.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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He alienated players that were cancers and didn't want to be here (and are now gone). What the fans think of him is 100% inconsequential. There is no evidence that he "pissed off the owner". Lebron James is the King of Cleveland.  You can choose to believe as gospel the five words Jay Glazer said regarding the subject. Truth is, Glazer doesn't know any more than you or me about "the plan" that he spoke of.
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He deserves to be fired for pulling the team together and building them up for winning out 4 games in a row ?
How about the other 11 games in which most of them the Browns were non-competitive?
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Do you know what kind of team in dis-array he had when he started ?
It is well known he ended up making almost all the personnel decisions and the entire org. ran through him. So he helped create that disarray. I mean his hand picked GM was fired mid-way through the season.
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What kind of loser mentality he had to change ?
The Browns still had a losing season so what mentality did he change again?
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Dude should not be fired. He turned the team around with the limited resources he had. I believe in him.
He signed the players, he mishandled the QBs, and he drafted them whatever limited resources he had, he helped create.
Mangini did good things....but he also did a lot of bad too. If we keep him I'd be okay with it but if Holmgren fires him then so be it.
Go Browns!!![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/BrowniePoints/AndersonSnowPic.jpg)
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He also alienated players, alienated fans, pissed off the owner and had consolidated power into making himself the King of Cleveland.
Really?? God bless the alienated fans lmao who gives a rats @$$, I want a winner. He pissed off the owner, when and where? The guy is not Musolini c'mon.
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He also alienated players
Maybe at first, but it doesn't seem that way now. MKC put out an article where several players including Wimbley, Vickers, Cribbs, Thomas, and Bowens all expressed desire for Mangini to stay. I don't think the 'alienation' carries as much weight now as it did earlier in the season ... and it can also be viewed as a necessary evil in getting this turned around.
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If you want my honest take...I think he lied to Randy Lerner about what he was going to do and Lerner is pissed at him.
I believe Lerner is hoping Holmgren retains Mangini. That's just my take.
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As for the "just another bozo's take", it's Jay Glazer and he's almost in Adam Schefter like territory. Glazer is much more right than he is wrong.
Then again, I understand some older people don't trust any media members. Personally, I think Glazer has it dead on.
Unfortunately, I believe in the smoke and fire saying ... and I think it's a shame.
Well the players love him now because he got rid of everyone who didn't love him. Lewis is gone and Edwards is getting ready for playoff football. Now that doesn't mean any of the players he got rid of were any good...but if it can happen to them, it can certainly happen to other players that Holmgren wants to bring in.
I have said I would be happy if Mangini was brought back, but there is enough of a resume for him to stay and go and I think Holmgren wants his own staff. We'll see very soon.
you had a good run Hank.
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Are you really upset that Edwards and Lewis are no longer here? If so, why? If not, then what does it matter if Mangini alienated them?
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There is no evidence that he "pissed off the owner".
So...why was Holmgren brought in here again?
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You can choose to believe as gospel the five words Jay Glazer said regarding the subject. Truth is, Glazer doesn't know any more than you or me about "the plan" that he spoke of.
Glazer has NFL contacts. He knows what is going on...You don't have to believe him, no skin off my back.
you had a good run Hank.
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Are you really upset that Edwards and Lewis are no longer here? If so, why? If not, then what does it matter if Mangini alienated them?
I already said that in the same post and you can look if you want.
you had a good run Hank.
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He also alienated players, alienated fans, pissed off the owner and had consolidated power into making himself the King of Cleveland.
Really?? God bless the alienated fans lmao who gives a rats @$$, I want a winner. He pissed off the owner, when and where? The guy is not Musolini c'mon.
Again, look at what happened in Chicago where Lerner was obviously upset at the team.
As for the fans, you don't have to care, but many in the Browns organization I am sure care.
you had a good run Hank.
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There is no evidence that he "pissed off the owner".
So...why was Holmgren brought in here again?
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You can choose to believe as gospel the five words Jay Glazer said regarding the subject. Truth is, Glazer doesn't know any more than you or me about "the plan" that he spoke of.
Glazer has NFL contacts. He knows what is going on...You don't have to believe him, no skin off my back.
Holmgren was brought in to install and manage a quality front office staff and, potentially, players. It certainly wasn't because Eric Mangini "pissed off" Randy Lerner.
Glazer can have all the NFL contacts he wants. The only person who knows if Mangini is getting fired is Mike Holmgren, and I seriously doubt that he volunteered up that info to the likes of someone as far down the totem pole as Jay Glazer. I think the more likely scenario is you want Mangini gone, a credible source of NFL information is reporting that Mangini is good as gone, and you're clinging to it like it was a life preserver after you went overboard.
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As in what ? He deserves to be fired for pulling the team together and building them up for winning out 4 games in a row ? Do you know what kind of team in dis-array he had when he started ? What kind of loser mentality he had to change ? Dude should not be fired. He turned the team around with the limited resources he had. I believe in him.
He also alienated players, alienated fans, pissed off the owner and had consolidated power into making himself the King of Cleveland. He also mishandled that QB situation, mishandled a lot of his players and started off 1-11, if you do not remember. Taking his entire situation into view, yes, he deserves to be fired.
If you want my honest take...I think he lied to Randy Lerner about what he was going to do and Lerner is pissed at him.
As for the "just another bozo's take", it's Jay Glazer and he's almost in Adam Schefter like territory. Glazer is much more right than he is wrong.
Then again, I understand some older people don't trust any media members. Personally, I think Glazer has it dead on.
I am sorry. Because I don't like multiple quote arguements. Ha.
But I think that is BS. He MADE the TEAM into a WINNER with his SYSTEM. No, players and people didn't like it. But he laid down the law..........and it worked in the end. OBVIOUSLY the players bought into it or we wouldn't have won 4 straight. The players were supportive. And WHEN could we EVER say we won four straight and seen a team TURNED AROUND. ???????? The guy deserves to stay another year, and no you won't listen to me, but you WILL see it happen. MH is no dummy. MARK MY WORDS. *Shrug* I could care less what you guys think, but I know it to be true that Mangini will be here next year.
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There is no evidence that he "pissed off the owner".
So...why was Holmgren brought in here again?
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You can choose to believe as gospel the five words Jay Glazer said regarding the subject. Truth is, Glazer doesn't know any more than you or me about "the plan" that he spoke of.
Glazer has NFL contacts. He knows what is going on...You don't have to believe him, no skin off my back.
Holmgren was brought in to install and manage a quality front office staff and, potentially, players. It certainly wasn't because Eric Mangini "pissed off" Randy Lerner.
Glazer can have all the NFL contacts he wants. The only person who knows if Mangini is getting fired is Mike Holmgren, and I seriously doubt that he volunteered up that info to the likes of someone as far down the totem pole as Jay Glazer. I think the more likely scenario is you want Mangini gone, a credible source of NFL information is reporting that Mangini is good as gone, and you're clinging to it like it was a life preserver after you went overboard.
Yes, because I said I want Mangini gone 
I have said numerous times today that I'll be happy with whatever Holmgren does. Now why do you think Lerner was prompted to hire Holmgren again? To manage a quality front office and staff because Lerner doesn't know how to do it?
If that is the case, then Mangini must have done something to Lerner to change his mind. I'm guessing Mangini didn't make Lerner so overly happy that he went out and hired a HOF coach to replace Mangini as leader of the Cleveland Browns, that's for sure.
you had a good run Hank.
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I don't believe that Mangini's ego will withstand being relegated to the minor roll that MH will probably place him in. Going from "recommending" a GM to being instrumental in the draft and cutting first round picks to implementing pre-planned schemes and working with a coaching staff hand-picked by the VP and GM... I can't see him doing it. Not after the long look we had at his swelled head this year. After his meeting with MH, he might just hit the media and say, "We have difference in the way that the team should be run. So, I have decided to resign my position in search of better opportunities." 
Never have hope. You won’t be disappointed.
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He MADE the TEAM into a WINNER with his SYSTEM.
5-11. If you're happy with 5-11 so be it but do not call this team a winner until they deserve that title.
The only thing Mangini proved was that he was a better coach than RAC...and that isn't hard at all.
you had a good run Hank.
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Well all I know is I have my own selfish convictions, but if MH wants to fire Mangini and start over I will reluctantly be onboard because I trust his insight is far better than mine. Just voicing my opinion and saying that Glazer didn't cite any sources so his report left me wondering...
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Well all I know is I have my own selfish convictions, but if MH wants to fire Mangini and start over I will reluctantly be onboard because I trust his insight is far better than mine. Just voicing my opinion and saying that Glazer didn't cite any sources so his report left me wondering...
That's fine, you don't have to believe him.
I'm just saying, people who think he is completely clueless on this issue are wrong.
you had a good run Hank.
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That quote can also read the other way, which is that neither guy could take the job, and thus the situation itself and not the handling of the QB's was the unfortunate part.
Oh crap, do I have to argue with you too? 
Really don't care, really don't care, don't care , really don't if neither of your quarterbacks steps up and takes the job. You flip a coin if you have to, yeah, I went there  , and name a dang starter to give him and the team enough time and reps.
You just can't do what Mangini did without it being detrimental to the team.
Now, as far as what Holmgren meant by what he said you have to read the link to see that he was talking about the QB's and not necessarily the handling of them. But, if you look at it again he was talking about them being "juggled" which is something neither QB can do.
"When you're kind of juggling two guys...", is saying what was being done with the two guys. The rest is in defense of the QB's and to some extent, the team. There's no way to spin that to be in defense of Mangini's handling of the situation.
Damn it Toad, the guy agrees with you, I point it out, and you screw with me!
btw ... I will mail a nickel taped to a postcard to anyone who can name the song from which the lyric was referenced.
#gmstrong
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He MADE the TEAM into a WINNER with his SYSTEM.
5-11. If you're happy with 5-11 so be it but do not call this team a winner until they deserve that title.
The only thing Mangini proved was that he was a better coach than RAC...and that isn't hard at all.
Ding Dong Male. It takes TIME to turn a team around. ROME WASN'T BUILT IN A DAY. I'm sorry, but duh. One season isn't enough to judge anyone by, an MH has said as much. Mangini will be here next year.
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They better not fire Mangin or I will be completely pissed off.
If they do they are completely blind. But I don't think they are.
My how much of the fanbase has change on a 4 game stretch...
Mangini did some good things, but he deserves to be fired for plenty of things he has done.
Thebig...I agree, some of the fans put a lot of stock in the these 4 wins.
Browns fans need to remember this though...we must be able to beat playoff teams to achieve franchise goals.
Cincinnati beat us twice, they are in the playoffs...
Ravens beat us twice, they are in the playoffs...
Steelers beat us once, they lost out on the playoffs today...
Going 1-5 in our division is not going to get the Browns to the playoffs.
The goal of the franchise is to compete and win against the best in the NFL, not just the worst. To achieve that goal, changes must be made.
Browns fans need to set a higher standard than in the past. We have learned to accept and be happy with much less than the best. Don't be upset with Holmgren over the changes he makes..without changes, this franchise will never achieve the one goal that matters most.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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He MADE the TEAM into a WINNER with his SYSTEM.
5-11. If you're happy with 5-11 so be it but do not call this team a winner until they deserve that title.
The only thing Mangini proved was that he was a better coach than RAC...and that isn't hard at all.
Ding Dong Male. It takes TIME to turn a team around. ROME WASN'T BUILT IN A DAY. I'm sorry, but duh. One season isn't enough to judge anyone by, an MH has said as much. Mangini will be here next year.
Holmgren also said that he wished he would make changes sooner and sometimes you have to make unfair decisions. I'm not so sure why you are fighting me so much on this other than you just really want to convince yourself that Mangini will be here no matter what.
So great is the power of winning 4 games in a row, I suppose.
you had a good run Hank.
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As it is said, Winning cures everything.
#gmstrong
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Yes, because I said I want Mangini gone
"I am a fan of MH hiring ... an offensive minded HC". Your words. Not mine.
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I have said numerous times today that I'll be happy with whatever Holmgren does. Now why do you think Lerner was prompted to hire Holmgren again? To manage a quality front office and staff because Lerner doesn't know how to do it?
If that is the case, then Mangini must have done something to Lerner to change his mind. I'm guessing Mangini didn't make Lerner so overly happy that he went out and hired a HOF coach to replace Mangini as leader of the Cleveland Browns, that's for sure.
Wanting Mangini gone and trusting Mike Holmgren's decision aren't mutually exclusive.
Do you think Lerner can competently run an NFL front office? Holmgren was brought in because he knows football as well as anyone in the world, and Lerner trusts him with the charge to competently run an NFL front office. Holmgren is not the Browns' coach. He's not the general manager. He's the president of the organization. He's stated in no uncertain terms that, while he will have the final say on all moves made, personnel decisions will be made as a group involving himself, the HC, and the GM. Again, he was brought in to competently run this team, because prior to his hiring we had NOBODY running the team. We had a head coach making personnel decisions in addition to his coaching duties, and an owner that is best served keeping his hand out of the cookie jar.
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1) We get a new QB (95%)
2) We get a new OC and the WCO (100%)
3) We keep the 3-4 defense and Ryan (50%)
I will say beating Pittsburg and winning 4 games in a row for the first time since 1994 was/is impressive.
We don't really need a new QB. I think this year showed us that the QB isn't going to have to win us our games for us. THe guys we got can get it done.
We don't need a new OC, or the WCO----that is ridiculous. We are building a run first team here that can grind out games on the ground----thats what wins here in december.
Ryans style fits, as does Mangini's, and even Daboll fits in.
You think 4 in a row and beating Pitt was impressive. Look at the way this team got rid of its primadonnas and put together a group of players who want to win regardless of anything else.
Mangini was picking up guys and dropping guys nearly every week. We found a lot of talent off the waiver wire and street-free agents. And we molded it into a team that played to win. Last year with Romeo---this team would have rolled over and died in this situation.
A lot of teams rolled over and died at the end of the year. This team fought hard and it all comes back to Mangini and what he is building.
Funny thing is, Mangini didn't come in here thinking---well, I've got one year to build this thing. He was looking at setting the foundation for next year---and he set us up HUGE!!!!!!
We've got a great idea where our true weaknesses are we've got 11 picks to fix 'em. We've got a lot of hungry players looking to win.
I think a lot of the negative press Mangini gets is stupid. I like that he doesn't tell the media everything. I like he fact that everything is closed to the vest. I think his coaching style gets 100% from his players. He knows how to motivate, and he WILL BENCH YOU if he doesn't think he is getting enough.
We saw it from Brady Quinn and we saw it from Jerome Harrison. EARN IT.
After watching this whole season unfold---I think Eric Mangini is the answer here in Cleveland and I will be about done with the Browns if we fire him.
He is building this thing right-----which is what everyone wanted---and half-season in---all the bandwagoners got cold-feet. Nothing comes easy, and building a successful franchise isn't overnight. We need to see this through.
Keep the staff in tact.
Halmgren can put together the FO, but I don't wanna see him sticking his nose in the coaching scheme unless Mangini FAILS this next year.
I don't believe he will.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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JC...
I'm one of the people that believe Lerner was very upset at Mangini earlier this year. It's easy to see that's why Holmgren was brought in. It was even documented after one game how upset Lerner was (was it the Green Bay game?) Lerner's anger might have faded a little with this winning steak, but to say Lerner was not upset with Mangini is ignorant.
It's my opinion that Mangini sold himself to Lerner as a guy who could turn this team around THIS SEASON. He did it in New York his first season, and he thought he could do it again here. He even followed a similar blueprint to the one he used in New York (get rid of malcontents, bring in famiilar vets, draft a rookie center, ect.). That's why he was hired by Lerner.
Early in the season, it looked as though this team had gotten significantly worse than the 2008 team. That's why Lerner was upset, that's why Holmgren was hired, and that's why Mangini will probably lose his job.
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I am a fan of MH hiring an offensive minded HC if he chooses to fire Mangini.
Now, if it's Mike Holmgren's desire to do so, he has all the right in the world to fire Mangini and there is enough of a base there for it to be a reasonable fire.
We improved from a bad team to a below average team and Mangini should be proud of that...he also should be fired if Holmgren deems it so. That's really the bottom line, if Holmgren wants him gone, then Mangini should be gone.
I am also fully aware that Holmgren is President of Football Ops and that's why he was brought in, to set the vision of the team.
you had a good run Hank.
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Thebig...I agree, some of the fans put a lot of stock in the these 4 wins.
Browns fans need to remember this though...we must be able to beat playoff teams to achieve franchise goals.
Cincinnati beat us twice, they are in the playoffs...
Ravens beat us twice, they are in the playoffs...
Steelers beat us once, they lost out on the playoffs today...
Going 1-5 in our division is not going to get the Browns to the playoffs.
The goal of the franchise is to compete and win against the best in the NFL, not just the worst. To achieve that goal, changes must be made.
I don't think anyone (yourself included) expected that to happen in 1 year 
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I myself today was riding the emotional high of watching my team end the year on a winning streak. It was good to see. That being said, I know we didn't defeat the league's top world-beaters in these games, either. We beat the team's we had a chance to beat because of one hell of a game from our defense (Pitt), Josh Cribbs, the improved running game, weather, and the fact that again, the competition was weak. I don't mean to take away from our victories but objectively looking at it I think that needs to be noted.
The first 3/4 of our season were unacceptable and what will probably ultimately lead to EM's dismissal. I mean we were terrible and not even remotely competitive. The great picture looks a little better because of the end season momentum but there is still a slew of holes that needs to be filled for this team to contend for the post season anytime soon.
I just think there will be too many philosophical differences between Gini and Holmgren as far as offensive football strategy, potentially defensive scheme, approach to draft (which is where we talk about a coach and whoever in the FO working together), training, conditioning, practice methods and drills, nutrition, office furniture selection, whatever. They both have two very different football backgrounds and Holmgren is going to build a football team in his image and with his identity. That's why I don't see it happening.
I don't think Mangini is a bad coach and appreciate the culture he's tried to establish in Cleveland as far as a smart, disciplined, tough, physical football team that is meant to over time be build from the inside out. His vision and logic process along those lines are very solid. There's more to it than that, but he at least deserves some credit as far as that's concerned.
Talent evaluation and drafting? Maybe something he should stay away from. I think with the right GM above him with a knack for talent acquisition the guy can win a lot of football games.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2010/01/regardless_of_his_2010_fate_er.html Regardless of his 2010 fate, Eric Mangini has Browns in better shape than when he arrived: Terry Pluto
By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
January 03, 2010, 5:26PM
John Kuntz / The Plain DealerFlanked by Lawrence Vickers (left) and David Bowens (96) and doused by a celebratory bucket of Gatorade, Eric Mangini left Cleveland Browns Stadium with a team on a four-game winning streak. He also gave suffering Browns fans hope, says Terry Pluto, regardless of whether he still has a job for 2010.CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Hope.
That's how this Browns season ended Sunday when the team walked off the field with a 23-17 victory over Jacksonville.
Hope.
Because this 5-11 team finished with a four-game winning streak, their longest since 1994.
Hope.
Because Mike Holmgren has been hired as the new team president, and he is a respected, successful football leader who coached teams in Seattle and Green Bay to the Super Bowl.
Hope, because Eric Mangini had these Browns playing at their best when the weather was the worst. Hope, because they knocked off Jacksonville on this day of minus-1 degree wind chills. Hope, because they beat Pittsburgh for the first time in six years on a brutal night when the wind chill was minus-6.
Hope, because the team that stepped on these frozen fields to win these final four games showed as much grit and toughness as the fans who stood by them in weather cold enough to make a penguin shiver. All of their last four victories cane in temperatures under 37 degrees.
Hope, because this is a team that was 6-17 in the last five years after Dec. 1. This season, it was 4-0. That shows the Browns learned how to line up, block and run the ball on those days when the line of scrimmage is a bunch of white smoke coming from the months of players inside their helmets.
But these Browns allowed only two touchdown in their final three home games.
Yes, that signals hope.
You can dismiss the final four games by saying the Browns are still a 5-11 team, a long way from the playoffs. You can say that they beat two bad teams -- Oakland and Kansas City -- and two slumping teams in Pittsburgh and Jacksonville.
But the Browns had absolutely nothing to play for after their 1-11 start. If the team indeed loathed Mangini as much as his critics claimed, the season would have ended with a six-game losing streak, as it did in 2008.
Instead, here was a coach with a 5-11 record receiving the celebratory Gatoraide shower as the final seconds of Sunday's game ticked down.
"It felt cold ... and satisfying," said Mangini.
Call it hope.
It dates way back to all the laps run due to missed assignments under a sweltering August sun in the double-session practices of training camp. It's something having to do with the fines dished out for breaking team rules, something with talented but temperamental Braylon Edwards being traded after four games.
It's what Mangini called that "comical buzzword, process ... these things take time ... to learn lessons."
Mangini took over a team that was 4-12 in three of the last five seasons. It's a team that has been to the playoffs only once (2001) since the Browns returned in 1999. It's a team that year after year was in the top five of committing penalties, a team clearly lacking in discipline.
Hope is the Browns having the third fewest penalties in the league, and that is due to the coaches.
Mangini compared coaches to teachers after Sunday's game. What he didn't say is that he took over a very unruly classroom. He made the decision to be the stern taskmaster, believing he could ease off later.
As Mangini softened late in the season, the Browns turned harder to beat. They lined up and ran the ball right at the opposition, as if this were 1937 and guys wore leather helmets with no facemasks. They act as if pass was an ugly, four-letter word to be seldom uttered.
They won their last four games by completing a total of 31 passes. Brady Quinn started the first two, then was hurt. Derek Anderson played the final two. Neither brought back memories of Otto Graham, or Brian Sipe.
But Jerome Harrison suddenly turned into a young Leroy Kelly, gaining 286, 148 and 127 yards in his last three games. Generously listed at 5-9, Harrison is still the shortest player on the roster.
He has little legs as powerful pistons, pumping up and down as he kicks away tacklers. Like most star running backs, the more he carried the ball, the stronger he grew -- much like the team itself.
Hope?
That's how this season ends for the Browns -- and with a question mark as Holmgren has yet to determine if Mangini will continue as coach. No matter what Holmgren decides, there is hope because Mangini has made this team much better than when he found it
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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FWIW, Pluto is very much right.
He brought toughness and discipline to this team and while it probably cost him his job, we should probably not over look the fact that he will have a long legacy after he is gone from here.
He installed work ethic that should extend well past him being here.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
Damn it Toad, the guy agrees with you, I point it out, and you screw with me!
'Dub, when you're a well-versed fence-rider such as I am, you have to stay in practice.
Remember what Otto has said: I've perfected the art of insulting people without insulting people, as well as riding the fence in such a way as to always be able to say I'm right.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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Quote:
He installed work ethic that should extend well past him being here.
Unfortunately, I don't believe that to be the case if he's let go.
That's one of my biggest concerns.
And I'm hoping it doesn't go unnoticed by MH.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Quote:
FWIW, Pluto is very much right.
He brought toughness and discipline to this team and while it probably cost him his job, we should probably not over look the fact that he will have a long legacy after he is gone from here.
He installed work ethic that should extend well past him being here.
I want to make one very blunt, factual statement:
If Mangini gets fired, it won't be because of what he did in regards to tearing down the roster and rebuilding the players and team in his image. It'll be because he screwed up the entire organization with his people who were fired by Lerner, and because of that, Holmgren was brought in to rebuild it.
Nothing more, nothing less.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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j/c
Grr goobers. Mangini will stay. He is a tough coach who has/will whip this team into shape. He started with a very soft team who sucked and turned them into a team who....well...sucked less. Our OC is very bad. MH will get a new one and a GM. We will be in good shape for next season. If you want a look...see how Rob Ryan turned the D up. We can do that on O with the right OC. I see is now in my crystal ball. Just sayin'
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If you're saying that's the reason MH is here, you are correct.
If you're saying that MH is going to say to himself "I'm only here because Mangini couldn't run an organization so I must fire him as coach", you are wrong.
If EM gets fired as coach, it will be because MH wants his own people or he simply doesn't believe in him as coach.
How MH got here is irrelevant at this point.
And you're confusing the two.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Legend
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Just a few general comments .....
People talk about the "ego" of Mangini ..... but what are the examples of ego run amok? I mean ... I want a coach who thinks that his way is the right way ..... who is committed to what he believes to be right and wrong .... who values character and commitment, and sets rules for the team to follow with the expectation that they will ..... who stresses teamwork above the individual ....... and I don't see that as "ego".
What are the incidents that unmistakably scream "egomaniac!"?
This team lost the 2nd half of the 2008 season in absolutely humiliating and abysmal fashion. That team did indeed give up. It was an undermanned team with a couple of :stars" who were "me first" players.
They wound up lst season losing their last 4 games by scores of 28-9 .... 30-10 ...... 14-0 ... and 31-0. The team sucked. Period. We went 4-12.
Every national writer expected this team to degrade further this season. We had 4 draft picks. We had some bloated contracts for undeserving players. We had a couple of headcase "stars". In short ..... we had next to nothing ... with minimal expectations of improvement this year. We exchanged overpriced players like Shaffer for less expensive players like St Clair. Upgrade? No. Downgrade? No. Less expensive? Quite a bit. We also freed up cap room for next year and beyond .. which could be vital if agreement on a new CBA is reached.
This team had no identity last year. We did very little well. WE have begun to become a running team ..... and a defensive team. Last year poor QB play doomed us at the end of the year. This season ..... the QB is not the main gear on offense ... but rather a part. Run the ball .... play defense ....... and the QB does not have to be Peyton Manning to win games. Ironically enough, this is the same formula that the Jets have used this year to reach the playoffs. Mangini helped build that team ... and his imprint is still evident.
I must admit that I am probably not the standard fan. I like defensive gameplans. I like seeing a team beaten into submission with the running game. I admit that I would like to see a team capable of hitting a big play over the top when teams stack the line ..... but addly enough, that missing element gives me even more hope for the future, as teams did stack the line in these last 4 games .... and we ran it down their throats anyway.
In short, this team is developing into my kind of team, largely because Mangini is my kind of coach. His philosophy is extremely close to my own. I hope that he gets another year to show even more development of his system.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Ummmm......................I'm saying because he screwed up the organization Holmgren was brought in.
Because Holmgren was brought in, Holmgren is going to want all his own people.
Because Holmgren wants his own people, Mangini will be fired. (My opinion).
That's about as clear as I can be, Rish.
If it was just a GM being brought in, I could see Mangini staying. But that isn't what Lerner wanted. Lerner wanted an entirely new group, so I think that's what Holmgren will do. I think that's what he must do if he wants to be successful quicker.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Remember what Otto has said: I've perfected the art of insulting people without insulting people, as well as riding the fence in such a way as to always be able to say I'm right.
You're too hard on yourself.
Half the lies people tell about you are not true.
#gmstrong
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Bah!
You, sir, have a face for radio!
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Because Holmgren was brought in, Holmgren is going to want all his own people.
Any idea, anybody, how often in a organizational change of this magnitude is the incumbent regime kept onboard?
It seems like everyone wants their own people. Head Coaches rarely retain coordinators or assistants. I've always thought it was because half of the previous guys combined with half of the new guys could easily create a split staff and would be detrimental to the team.
It also seems the same would be true in the case of MH coming in here. Keeping Mangini and half his staff is inviting a split. They'd all pay lip service to the new President to keep their jobs but behind the scenes may form a less than loyal sect. The sure fire way to avoid this is to bring your own people in right from the beginning.
As Holmgren has said, making necessary changes sooner rather than later is something he's learned from his experience. To keep the incumbent regime, in whole or in part, with anything less than full confidence of them being unquestionably loyal to all the new changes would be to, perhaps, delay a necessary change. Again, best to bring your own people in right from the beginning.
All that said, I'm still wondering: How often is the incumbent regime kept onboard given a major organizational change like this?
#gmstrong
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i have clicked on the link. there's an additional sentence the akron beacon left out. from the plain dealer: Quote:
"They think the world of him," Holmgren said. "This much I know. If you're kind of juggling two guys [Quinn and Derek Anderson], it becomes very hard for both of them and at times hard for the team. I'd have to study and learn so much more about both those young men."
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2009/12/report_mike_holmgren_not_comin.html
the only point i was making is that i don't think holmgren is saying, from the quote you reference, that mangini needed to make a decision on the starter before the 4th week of the preseason. i think the only thing he was getting at was he has a different opinion to the situation that what savage said, when he said he is in a great position to possibly have two good qbs. everything i said after was my own theory as to why mangini did not make a decision sooner. i have also acknowledged that it was a hail mary but i also do not think mangini would've done this had one of the qbs had a better camp and preseason.
as to your opinion of the qb, i'm saying that the only thing the qb missed out on were a few passes in the 4th preseason game. had that qb played all the 4th preseason game, which is not customary and had gotten injured, people would be ripping him for that. it was very unlikely that the qb would've gotten more than a few throws in that 4th preseason game. while it accomplished nothing, why not hold both out? it's not like mangini split the reps up until the vikings game. hanging on this lack of a decision is foolish because it didn't hurt the prep of the vikings game anyways.
just because a starter wasn't named, and to prove that point mangini never even named one, doesn't mean a decision WASN'T made.
<edit> i replied to your post after, but did not see, your post where you say it's him talking about the qbs. so you clearly see he's not talking directly about the preseason. that said, if your point is to pick one qb, stay with him for a season, then we're on the same page. i got hung up on you talking about preseason and reps, especially.
Last edited by dong; 01/04/10 01:28 AM.
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