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Ummmm......................I'm saying because he screwed up the organization Holmgren was brought in.
Because Holmgren was brought in, Holmgren is going to want all his own people.
Because Holmgren wants his own people, Mangini will be fired. (My opinion).
That's about as clear as I can be, Rish.
If it was just a GM being brought in, I could see Mangini staying. But that isn't what Lerner wanted. Lerner wanted an entirely new group, so I think that's what Holmgren will do. I think that's what he must do if he wants to be successful quicker.
I agree. Mangini screwed up the structure of the organization and created a situation where people were screaming about an awful team. Lerner decided quickly to jump on Holmgren so he could get himself settled and ready to work ASAP. Now that we are doing well it's sort of a tough situation, the kind only the Browns seem to find themselves in.
I think there's a small possibility that we keep Mangini, an even smaller possibility we keep Daboll, and a bigger possibility we keep Rob Ryan. In some ways i feel like this would be a decision that MH would want to make with his prospective GM (which could possibly be hired any day now). May be tomorrow we'll find out about a GM hire!
I just wonder if Mangini can work for someone............ That seems to be an issue and I'd prefer other people drafting for Mangini.
In the end I imagine Holmgren will fire Mangini, then hire a manager, start interviewing coaches and then find a coach and build a coaching staff. I just sure hope he knows what he's doing because Mangini really seemed to be doing well lately and this team has been improving.
But Mangini forced Lerner's hand to hire Holmgren to run the Browns however he wants so that we become successful.
Either way, the last third of the season this year was special for me. From the close one to Detroit to the four game win streak (and beating the Steelers!) I've had a lot of fun watching my guys.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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How many coaches and coordinators has MH been around in his years? I'd say quite a few. He's a pretty smart guy and would say if he looks at Eric and figures there may not be a much better candidate and asks him to stay WITH stipulations that it puts the ball in Erics court and if he stays the Browns look like they did the right thing and if he CHOOSES to go it looks like they did the right thing by offering.
I thing the guy(EM) knows the game as well as anyone and might excell if it was his sole mission to coach the team.
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But Mangini forced Lerner's hand to hire Holmgren to run the Browns however he wants so that we become successful.
IMO, this was less about Mangini's failings and more about Lerner doing some introspection and realizing he isn't that good at handling a football staff. Even though I don't think Randy Lerner hired Butch, this situation has similarities to the Butch situation; a young (in terms of years as HC) coach ends up with way too much power b/c Lerner just isn't qualified to check that power so he defers. If this were just about Mangini's failings, Lerner would have done what he did after Butch; he would have consulted around the league, hired his own GM and then coach. Instead he hired someone to completely handle the football operations.
This is a good thing; Lerner finally recognized his limitations. He gets two thumbs up in my opinion. Now hopefully he sits back and leaves Holmgren alone (I think he will).
Also, I really have no idea if Holmgren will keep Mangini. I go back and forth every day. I will say that IMO Mangini's biggest gamble (and biggest mistake) was hiring Daboll. Mangini has a mostly defensive background. He really needed an experienced guy handling the offense. I don't think his draft was as bad as some believe and the Kokinis situation was really created by Lerner's deference to a young, inexperienced coach. We should have seen that coming, how many 3 year head coaches are qualified to select their GM?
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IMO, this was less about Mangini's failings and more about Lerner doing some introspection and realizing he isn't that good at handling a football staff.
Ha ha,, I don't think Randy Lerner ever tried to fool himself into thinking he could handle a football staff.. He just hires the top dudes and let's them run it.
What happened here, simply enough, is that the team faltered and he didn't like it, so he made a decision.. GO GET THE BEST he could find.
Holmgren was clearly (to randy) the best out there.. It's hard to argue against that. The man has been a winner.. No reason to think he won't be here...
#GMSTRONG
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We wait and see what MH does..it doesn't bode well for EM..but we'll see..
Lets see,one of the posters on another thread told me to look at thE whole season and see the whole picture.. 
Well actually thats what I did..and I saw a turrible team..sure they won 4 in a row..but the same brilliant minds looked at 07 and saw the first half of that seaon and thought DA was the best thing since Ipods..
I saw too many personnel goofs and other ridiculous things that head man did ...
Usually when a new FO guy comes in he cleans house and gets his own people in..
Either way I won't be shocked..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/04/10 10:24 AM.
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We wait and see what MH does..it doesn't bode well for EM..but we'll see..
We'll see.
The gatorade shower the team gave mangini was a strong statement IMO.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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It does seem as though the players are buying into the system. No doubt we ended on a high note.
If Holmgren thinks Mangini is the right guy for now, I am OK with him keeping him. If he thinks Mangini is not the right guy, then I am OK with him letting him go.
I am not OK with Holmgren keeping Mangini if he is not the right guy just because of a few wins. But I do not see that happening.
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U sure it was Gatoraide?
Seriously I'm not affected by that..seen all of the EX-Browns coaches get hit with that liquid..some I'd rather see get hit with the jug..
What gets me is the so-called changes came after BK was brought in to ...help the offense..yeah...give advice..if dude was soooo good why was this needed?
There's too much question about certain issues that to me solidify that a change might be in order one way or another.
If he is kept he's going to have several people to answer to..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/04/10 11:07 AM.
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Well, if Cribbs is any barometer of what the players think of Mangini, then I guess they'd be all for him remaining as head coach..
If you haven't already, go check out his post game interview on the main sight in the mulit media area.. he's very convincing that he means it...
#GMSTRONG
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I don't think Randy Lerner ever tried to fool himself into thinking he could handle a football staff.. He just hires the top dudes and let's them run it.
I actually think he did fool himself a bit. While he may not have meddled in the day to day or player decisions, my impression was that he was directly involved in hiring two GMs and two coaches, two of the most important hires for a team.
Hiring Holmgren isn't the same as the hires of Savage/Crennel and Kokinis/Mangini. Holmgren will make all football hires and Randy will probably be in the meetings, but will largely sign the checks, i.e. Randy is another step farther removed from football operations.
I agree the Holmgren was the best thing they could've done and I'm very optimistic about it. I'm simply stating that I feel like Randy has done some growing as an owner.
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my impression was that he was directly involved in hiring two GMs and two coaches, two of the most important hires for a team.
OK,, if not him, who was supposed to do the hiring of those guys?
Don't confuse him hiring high level football people with him being involved with football decisions... two different things...
#GMSTRONG
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I get the feeling we're just stuck in a little argument of semantics. I probably misused the phrase "football staff." I also can be a bit verbose at times. Quote:
OK,, if not him, who was supposed to do the hiring of those guys?
I agree, there was no one else at those times. All I'm saying is now there is Holmgren, an experienced, well-respected, football-intelligent voice doing the hiring of GM/HC.
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Don't confuse him hiring high level football people with him being involved with football decisions... two different things...
I never said Lerner was involved with day to day football decisions. I said he was involved in handling football staff, and what I meant was hiring GM/HC.
I disagree that hiring GM/HC is not a football decision. IMO the most important football decisions a franchise can make are who they hire for GM and HC. We've seen that in the last decade. Lerner has finally recognized that he is not qualified to hire GM/HC and hired Holmgren to do so. I applaud him for that choice.
Last edited by tjs7; 01/04/10 12:49 PM.
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Well, if Cribbs is any barometer of what the players think of Mangini, then I guess they'd be all for him remaining as head coach..
If you haven't already, go check out his post game interview on the main sight in the mulit media area.. he's very convincing that he means it...
If the players would have had their way, Crennel would still be here.
The players don't dictate anything. The gatorade bath was a nice show of support, but it's meaningless.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
my impression was that he was directly involved in hiring two GMs and two coaches, two of the most important hires for a team.
OK,, if not him, who was supposed to do the hiring of those guys?
Don't confuse him hiring high level football people with him being involved with football decisions... two different things...
Back to this angle again? Thought we had this one settled before...........
Lerner hired TWO head coaches before hiring general managers.
Lerner handed absolute power to Butch freakin' Davis of all people.
So what's the difference between those moves and Holmgren?
Now HOLMGREN is going to decide which GM, Director of Player Personnel, Head Coach, and coordinators to install. NOT Randy Lerner.
Lerner should have never attempted to do the hiring of the football people. After several failed attempts, he finally figured it out.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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j/c much of this article was posted but here's some new stuff. Quote:
CLEVELAND: Browns quarterbacks coach Carl Smith waited outside the locker room following the Browns' 23-17 win over the Jacksonville Jaguars on Sunday.
Smith wanted to talk.
Before he did, he was reminded he technically was not supposed to speak to the media.
''You have a tape recorder?'' Smith asked and stepped into a tunnel outside the locker room, where he started discussing coach Eric Mangini.
''They missed it on Eric,'' Smith said firmly. ''They missed it.''
The ''they'' he referred to were the imperial they, the people who were criticizing Mangini throughout the early portion of a season that started 1-and-11.
''I don't blame anybody,'' Smith said. ''Because it's hard to know. It's not Entertainment Tonight.
''They missed it on [Bill] Belichick [in Cleveland]. They missed it.
''There's this whole big ball of football stuff that you have to know. And even for the people that know it, it's hard to get it. They missed it.
''It's got to be people that know three techniques and hand placement and under and over and Chapter 5 and spacing and slooping and all those things. You have to have lived and died it to have a chance to get it.
''They missed it. Because Eric can [get it done]. He can. He knows.''
Smith's passion extended as well to offensive coordinator Brian Daboll, a guy Smith called ''terrific.''
''Unless you're in there with him and know that big old ball of football stuff, you're going to miss it,'' Smith said. ''He's terrific. He's got an uncommon connection with his players. Linemen, receivers, running backs, all of them. That's rare to connect with the whole boat.''
Smith turned to walk away, but was asked: What happened at the beginning of the season?
''That's all I got for you,'' he said with a smile before turning the corner.
Clearly, this was a man who felt strongly about what he said, and he has 20 years of NFL experience (13 as an offensive coordinator, four as a quarterbacks coach) to buttress his points and offer as credibility.
Mangini, too, spoke with similar passion following the Browns' fourth win in a row to end the season.
He knows new president Mike Holmgren will decide on his future, and he said. ''I respect that.''
http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/80551942.html
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Good thing Smith is just talking about Mangini the football coach...........................
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Mangini needs to stay. He will get it done here.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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I'd bet Carl Smith doesn't even get an exit interview, in fact his stuff may be laying in the road before days end!
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Good thing Smith is just talking about Mangini the football coach...........................
He is pretty good at identifying talent and motivating his players. His draft yielded some solid players. His waiver wire pick-ups were outstanding.
I don't understand why people hate the guy so much.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Something was brought up in the Mike n Mike show this morning....it was a phone interview with Adam Schefter.
He stated that HC's like Cox and Lovie Smith who in normal seasons would be very high candidates of getting terminated might survive another season.
Why? Cause Owners view a possible lockout in 2011 - Why Fire a guy with a guaranteed contract Have to PAY HIM MEGA BUCKS. Then hire a new staff with new contracts for just ONE YEAR only having to pay him in 2011 to do nothing along with the fired coaches.
Adam implied that coaches normally to be fired could get another year (2010) and unless they turn things totally around fire them after the 2010 season and pay their 2011 salary for doing nothing but it won't be wasted as much as paying two HC's in 2011 for doing nothing!
Then I started wondering...just another variable in the favor of Mangini to get the nod for 2010.
Sure we all hope that things will be worked out with a new CBA but both look firm and if 2011 is a possibly lockout just another reason to hold onto Mangini for another season. If we do not continue improving and he doesn't prove to work well with Holmgren...simple...can him then!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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It's one year after his draft. It's too early to say he did good or bad.
He laid claims to waiver-wire players. That only existed because the players he put in place sucked. He can't get credit for those moves without also receiving blame. One can't be had without acknowledgement of the other.
And then there's the chick that was fired and the entire messy Kok situation. Those are on Mangini, which is why I say it's a good thing Smith is only talking about Mangini the head coach.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Not really posting anything these days because it's obvious that Mangini is gone. Kind of silly to post ad nausum about the topic. Check back in Tuesday night or so.
Should be an interesting offseason from there. And be prepared for an influx of Seahawks. LOL.
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I don't know if it's obvious right now....maybe 4 weeks ago it was, not now.
If I had to give my own personal percentage right now, I'd say:
60% EM stays as HC
40% Fired by tomorrow night
Of course, it's only my opinion. Maybe MH already made his mind up weeks ago and does care either way how we finished. Or this win streak helped push in another direction. We'll find out soon enough though.
Regardless of how we got here, which we can debate for the next 36 hours straight, I like the gameplan, the team, their fight, the defense, the running game, and even the coaches as of right now (ok, maybe not the OC).
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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so hypothetically, if we only allow mangini to be the coach and had someone else who oversaw all the front office stuff, we could be in a pretty good situation right? 
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so hypothetically, if we only allow mangini to be the coach and had someone else who oversaw all the front office stuff, we could be in a pretty good situation right?
I think the answer to that is yes. I think that Mangini is a good coach but he needs help on the personnel side.
That said I think the big question will be whether or not Holmgren beleives that he can work with Mangini. I think that they just have a different philosophy.
Some think that the fact Holmgren isn't the coach means it isn't a given that we will run the WCO offense. I think that's exactly what will happen. He is going to get a GM who knows what kind of guys are succesful in his system. He will then hire a coach that knows his system.
If everyone is on the same page then it will make all of thier jobs much easier. You can't have one guy looking at things differently than the other guys. It just won't work. They all need to be on the same page.
One way it can work with Mangini is if he allows Holmgren to put his own guys on the offensive side of the ball and Mangini focuses more of his attention on the defense since he is a defensive guy. If he can allow his OC to do his job and let him run the offense it just might work. I don't know that a coach would be willing to be a part of that or not.
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I would much rather have a grind it out running game, then implement the WCO here. What we have now is coming together----why is everyone so excited about blowing it up. Why can't cleveland fans stick to a gameplan. 
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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The players don't dictate anything. The gatorade bath was a nice show of support, but it's meaningless.
What the players think and want is far, far, far more meaningful than anything any fan thinks and wants.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I would much rather have a grind it out running game, then implement the WCO here. What we have now is coming together----why is everyone so excited about blowing it up.
Why can't cleveland fans stick to a gameplan.
I'm thinking along the lines of you here. If we don't show the same success and willingness to run the ball next year I'm going to be a little bit dissapointed to say the least. 
Find what you love and let it kill you.
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It's one year after his draft. It's too early to say he did good or bad.
That hasn't stopped a lot of people from saying it sucked.
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He laid claims to waiver-wire players. That only existed because the players he put in place sucked. He can't get credit for those moves without also receiving blame. One can't be had without acknowledgement of the other.
Ok, so let's acknowledge both... but if you are going to say that the players he put in place sucked, then you must also show the other options that were available to him at the time... You also have to understand that when he put those guys in place, he had seen ZERO on field performance by the group of guys he had...
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And then there's the chick that was fired and the entire messy Kok situation. Those are on Mangini, which is why I say it's a good thing Smith is only talking about Mangini the head coach.
Which is why those duties are no longer his to worry about... If all you want is a coach, then take what Smith said about Mangini as a coach and stop worrying about his personnel decisions, those are no longer his alone to make... stop worrying about his front office hirings and dealing, those are no longer his to deal with...
The question has been reduced to a fairly easy question, do you think Mangini can COACH a winning football team... I'm really believing he can...
yebat' Putin
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''They missed it on Eric,'' Smith said firmly. ''They missed it.''
''They missed it on [Bill] Belichick [in Cleveland]. They missed it
Really?
How much has Bellyache won and how much has EM won?
Can't compare the two yet because EM hasn't gone through the fire the way Bellyache has.
Smith turned to walk away, but was asked: What happened at the beginning of the season?
''That's all I got for you,'' he said with a smile before turning the corner.
Perhaps U missed the important part..it parallels what Toad said about player aquisition...U can't just look at the last 5 games and forget the 1-11 start-middle part either..there's a whole lot of blame for that disgusting brand of ball as there is some credit for the 4-0 finish..
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I would say that if you think bringing in the WCO means we won't be running the ball then I would say to go do some research. You'll find that many teams have been very successful running the ball with this offense.
Look at Alexander in Seattle. Or any RB that played for Denver when Shanahan was the coach.
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I would much rather have a grind it out running game, then implement the WCO here. What we have now is coming together----why is everyone so excited about blowing it up.
Why can't cleveland fans stick to a gameplan.
Why throw out generalizations like Everyone and Cleveland fans?
If you'd read this thread you'd see a good majority want Mangini back...then again, that would require you actually reading what the "lowly" Cleveland fans think.
you had a good run Hank.
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so hypothetically, if we only allow mangini to be the coach and had someone else who oversaw all the front office stuff, we could be in a pretty good situation right?
Hehehe...........
Again, if it were just a situation where Mangini already had a GM in place who wasn't brought here to reshape the entire organization, the answer would be more favorable.
But that isn't reality now.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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So you're shocked that a new HC took over a 4-11 team and finished with a 5-11 record and eleven draft picks? Even though he was forced to use one of the two QB's on our roster - both of which were horrible?
It seems a bit like you formed an opinion at 1-11 and don't want to reconsider your position...
Why would any Browns fan want to blow up an emerging running game that's starting to really take hold?
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Quote:
Quote:
so hypothetically, if we only allow mangini to be the coach and had someone else who oversaw all the front office stuff, we could be in a pretty good situation right?
Hehehe...........
Again, if it were just a situation where Mangini already had a GM in place who wasn't brought here to reshape the entire organization, the answer would be more favorable.
But that isn't reality now.
Yeah, I don't buy that argument for one second.
If Mangini were required only to coach, he'd be likely be successful. And from what I know, he apparently has a lot of support now from those within the organization right now.
Then again, the organization as we know it is about to get dumped in tomorrows trash, but I do not think there is any lasting negative impact in Berea that wouldn't allow Mangini to come back.
you had a good run Hank.
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Hall of Famer
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The absence of a gut feeling this time...........
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Mangini 'proud' of Browns' season
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Associated Press
BEREA, Ohio -- Eric Mangini says he doesn't have a gut feeling about whether new Browns president Mike Holmgren will keep him as Cleveland's coach.
Mangini said he has not yet scheduled his meeting with Holmgren, who was set to arrive Monday evening from Arizona to take over the team's football operations.
Mangini finished his first season in Cleveland with a four-game winning streak.
Mangini said he's proud of the progress he's made with the Browns (5-11), who concluded their season with a 23-17 win over Jacksonville, giving Cleveland its longest winning streak since 1994.
Mangini said he will not approach his meeting with Holmgren like a job interview.
"I have a job and I'm proud of the job that we've done," he said.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
So Mangini is going to meet with Holmgren sometime this week. Probably today. I think there are only two ways this can work:
1) Holmgren fires Mangini and his entire staff. He brings in his own guys. Possibly keep Seely. That's it.
2) Holmgren keeps Mangini and his entire staff.
I think that if Holmgren keeps Mangini around he has to let him keep his own coaches and let him pick his own coaches. It will be a disaster if Mangini is kept around and Holmgren adds coaches to the team that Mangini doesn't feel comfortable with.
For this reason I see Mangini getting fired. I think Holmgren knows you can't force coaches on to a coaching staff. And he will clearly want to run the West Coast offense.
I think Mangini deserves another year. If he is only coaching the team I think he can be successful. I think the 3-4 defense is finally starting to work with Rob Ryan as defensive coordinator. I think the offense is running well with Daboll calling the plays.
We'll see what happens. I think Mangini will get fired.
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Joined: Oct 2006
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2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 269 |
He should be proud. I think even if he gets canned, he's leaving the team in a MUCH better place then it was when he took over.
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Quote:
He should be proud. I think even if he gets canned, he's leaving the team in a MUCH better place then it was when he took over.
Yep....and that in and of itself speaks volumes.
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
If Mangini were required only to coach, he'd be likely be successful.
While that may possibly be true, it is at this point no longer just a question of what kind of coach he is. He doesn't run the WCO. His OC will be fired. He has been replaced as the shot-caller by a guy who was brought here to rebuild the organization, and because of that, his coaching ability is no longer the defining factor in all this.
Quote:
he apparently has a lot of support now from those within the organization right now.
Such as who? I haven't seen any votes of confidence from people such as Lerner, Keenan, or others. All I have seen is Lerner say he'd hope that Holmgren wouldn't fire Mangini without evaluating the situation. If you're basing your opinions on something his assistant coaches say or the players say, they don't matter much at all.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mangini Won 4 in a Row..Now what?
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