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Ahhh just saw the Heckert thread and the guy he wanted was Spagnuolo...who of course is NOT available...so not quite sure how much that is affecting his decision to interview this time...and we also do not know how much Holmgren or Mangini affects his decision to interview.
We do know that last year he wanted to bring in Spagnuolo....this year he knows he won't get to choose the HC...but with Holmgren he would at least have input concerning the matter because that is how Holmgren operates...but he knows that Holmgren makes the decision...Heckert is also coming here with the full knowledge that Mangini may very well still be the HC.....
I mean you have to take that possibility into account or you will be as shortsighted and biased as many on this board have been and I know you are not that.
The signs point in one direction with an addition of Heckert (bye bye Mangini) But in order to say that the question is.....do we see ALL of the signs and do we have the right map????lol
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Quote:
Quote:
What team doesn't listen to their coaches and scouts when selecting
..aaaaah Cleveland..
I think he was talking about AL Davis with the hand to desk slaming ( we ARE taking this guy )
It just crossed my mind who did that..for those of you that remember...Botch did that when he wanted Gerrad Warren..the coaches/scouts told him to select Seymour and he said no, he was going with Warren..he totally overruled everyone in the War room..we know how that turned out..
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Some insight and coaching potentials from NFL Network's La Canfora and Wyche
Great. Let's blow it up again, then again in two years when Fox or whoever bites the big one. Let's not take into consideration that Mangini is the only coach in six years to beat the Steelers, that he engineered the first four game winning streak since the return, that he's got the players playing for him, or that he has installed the types of players that buy into a winning, disciplined system. Let's just get the guys Homgren wants because they're Holmgren types of guys, and what Holmgren wants is all that matters. Oh yeah, and let's keep the egos out of it because that's the only way to win. Freaking thrilling. If this goes down it'll be nice to see that nothing has changed.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I'll ask this again since you said that..what are they blowing up?
A playoff team?
How do U blow up a team that hardly has any talent where its needed?
why is anyone concerned it's a blowup?
U actually want to keep every player at every position???
The only senerio thats a blowup is the defense if it's switched to a 43.
Now you have a teardown..but if not..
Other than that..bringing in upgrades to the Oline/WR/RB/QB positions and then upgrading the defense..it's simple as that..upgrades with a purpose to run a particular system..
Want to tell me what system we're running now and have been for the last 9 years?
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Sorry Cal couldnt resist. I know what you are saying but Holmgren is going to build a masterpiece.
Last edited by Mourgrym; 01/06/10 01:43 PM.
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I'll ask this again since you said that..what are they blowing up?
Exactly. We barely have a foundation laid. We're about to add on and build up. Not blow up.
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I'll ask this again since you said that..what are they blowing up?
A system that is starting to work, a coaching staff that gets it, a team that beat our arch rival and won four in a row, and moved from 32 to 25th in the power rankings in four weeks.
A playoff team?
Obviously not this year, but we'll never know if they blow it up, will we?
How do U blow up a team that hardly has any talent where its needed?
I just know you're not saying there's no talent anywhere. It's the first year of a rebuild. I expect talent to be added that fits the system and coaching style as we move forward. What do you expect?
why is anyone concerned it's a blowup?
Because the team is FINALLY moving in the right direction. I'm more concerned about the system than losing players. Mangini has shown that, at least in his system, it's about how the players play more than the players themselves. His system is concerned about execution over talent. Not that talent isn't important, but what the hell have we all been harping on since the return? EXECUTION! He finally has the team believing in and playing smart, disciplined football.
U actually want to keep every player at every position???
Did I say that? Does that EVER actually happen? Are we talking NFL football here?
The only senerio thats a blowup is the defense if it's switched to a 43.
Yeah, that squad that's actually playing well now, that began to get it and keep the team in games, play disciplined football, stop the run and prevent scoring. Yeah, no problem, let's go back to a 4-3. Yay.
Now you have a teardown..but if not.
Don't know what this means.
Other than that..bringing in upgrades to the Oline/WR/RB/QB positions and then upgrading the defense..it's simple as that..upgrades with a purpose to run a particular system.
Yes, I'm sure Mangini would agree with that, though maybe RB isn't such a priority with a Harrison/Jennings 1-2 punch, assuming Harrison can be resigned. I'm sure upgrading will be a major part of this off-season... if we don't have to rebuild AGAIN!
Want to tell me what system we're running now and have been for the last 9 years?
Um, 4-3, then 3-4? But Mangini hasn't been coaching the past nine years, has he?
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I understand the optimism, but not sure I agree that he's the savior everyone thinks he is. I wasn't a Mangini fan by any stretch, was in fact disgusted by the product put on the field at the beginning of the year, and like many, disagreed with his handling of the QB situation. However, he has won me over with the play of the team, and I FIRMLY believe he deserves the chance to continue molding this team in his fashion. I really want to see how this team plays in 2010 and especially in 2011.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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This sounds like a 3-4 or 4-3 debate on what system is better. I think most of us like the 3-4 and want to keep it here. We are probably 5 players away from fielding a top flight defense.
If we change to a 4-3 we are 5 or 6 players away. The players that are worth keeping are worth keeping in either system.
Holmgren, when he speaks, sounds to competent to just get rid of players because he didn't draft, trade or sign them. It is all football and whatever system we run people are going to have to be on board the Holmgren express because change is happening and you either adapt and become better or move on.
Daboll runs a high school football offense and Mangini let him run it because he doesn't know a better way. That made me sad and frustrated all season. Thank you Lerner for getting a football mind that can get a program started and not another tyrant.
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"I am 100% certain that there is a 70% chance that the odds of Mangini staying are 50-50"
yeah pretty much where I'm at 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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One of THE highlights of the season was Ryan and his D. 5-6 players away from a 4-3... and an ENTIRE coaching staff.
The football program has been started, have you not seen that? And Mangini is far from a tyrant. You're citing snipings from disgruntled players and a press pushing an agenda as fact to support your argument and it doesn't hold water.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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As a general reply to the 3-4 vs 4-3 debate...
I think arguing over which scheme is better suited to our current roster is a lost cause.
Our overall talent level is so low, it really doesn't matter at this point.
Breaking down who would fit where is also a split with only one or two players who might go one way or another (hard to tell), so it's a wash.
IMO, the decision really comes down to Rob Ryan. In our situation, I would keep the 3-4 just to keep him from walking.
Just sayin...
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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j/c
A lot of people are pointing to the 4 game winning streak as a reason to keep Mangini, but don't forget we also had a few losing streaks as well.
That being said, I realize that the winning streak was at the end of the season when the team could have easily quit knowing they were out of the playoffs. Mangini did what he had to do - win out to force Holmgren to at least THINK about his decision.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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A system that is starting to work, a coaching staff that gets it, a team that beat our arch rival and won four in a row, and moved from 32 to 25th in the power rankings in four weeks.
Oh boy..system starting to work..U mean give the ball to JH and let him gain yards instead of giving the ball to the plodding JL?
U mean the coaches lights came on or was someone in their ear suggesting they make changes,that perhaps they didn't know how to? I just know you're not saying there's no talent anywhere. It's the first year of a rebuild. I expect talent to be added that fits the system and coaching style as we move forward. What do you expect?
And talent will be added regardless of who is the coach,so once more what is there is worry about?
The offense has never had a identity..it's going to get one.. Because the team is FINALLY moving in the right direction. I'm more concerned about the system than losing players. Mangini has shown that, at least in his system, it's about how the players play more than the players themselves. His system is concerned about execution over talent. Not that talent isn't important, but what the hell have we all been harping on since the return? EXECUTION! He finally has the team believing in and playing smart, disciplined football.
And MH will feed off what success they just had..in this new system players will be utilized to their strengths..and actually fit the scheme.
They may be playing more disciplined but the execution in the passing game needed to be executed..  Don't know what this means.
If we went to a 43 it would be a teardown of the 34 scheme. Yes, I'm sure Mangini would agree with that, though maybe RB isn't such a priority with a Harrison/Jennings 1-2 punch, assuming Harrison can be resigned. I'm sure upgrading will be a major part of this off-season... if we don't have to rebuild AGAIN!
U still don't understand..it's still a rebuild after EM tore it down himself..they will be adding pieces..it's the defense I'm concerned about.
Pretty much whatever MH and the new GM do with the offense will be a level or two above what you saw this year..
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All Pro
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JC...
I have no idea why some of you guys are so worried about blowing up the organization again this year and actually rebuilding it the right way.
Last years off-season was a joke and not conducive to building to a winning organization. Lerner hired a coach first, and then he hired a weak GM whose influence seemed negligible. That doesn't sound like a very good set-up to me. In fact, it sounds a lot like how things were run with Butch Davis. How does it sound to you?
I feel much more comfortable this off-season that the Browns are heading in the right direction. MH, whether you like him or not, knows what a winning organization looks like. That's why Lerner brought him in. You bring in the President, he brings in the GM, and, together, they bring in the coach. This insures that everyone is on the same page and that everyone knows who is in charge.
We are finally doing things the right way, and I am glad!
And to you people who are afraid of blowing things up, you make the argument against yourselves. I hear things like: "It's hard to build a winning team in one year. Give him some time!" Mangini hasn't really built anything yet; yes, the last four weeks have been nice, and I've seen improvement, but what can you really build in one year?
Some of you act like it's a forgone conclusion that the team will be in the playoffs in the next couple years. I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me of that.
So, in summary, I'd like MH to build this team the right way and give the Browns a greater chance to succeed in the future. If that puts us one year behind Mangini's plan, then so be it. I'm patient. I just want things done right this time.
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A lot of people are pointing to the 4 game winning streak as a reason to keep Mangini, but don't forget we also had a few losing streaks as well.
And that it took great return games by Josh Cribbs to win 2 of those 4.
That isn't a "system that is starting to work."
Mangini should get some credit for how the team finished, but there is a discernible euphoria based on a 4-game winning streak that really isn't indicative of where the team is truly at.
Many would say there are no style-points in the NFL. When it comes to HONEST evaluation, how we won is every bit as important as winning.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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According to Adam Schefter, Holmgren and Mangini will meet at 2 p.m.
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According to Adam Schefter, Holmgren and Mangini will meet at 2 p.m.
Mangini is probably about to pee in his pants right now..
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Nah, he's probably just now applying a new coat of Carmex 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Probably,...but he's smart enough to know that all he has to do is "switch" camps -- from Belichick-like to Holmgren -- and he'll be OK. I hope for his sake, and that of the Browns, he will do that. Not saying he is the next coming of Paul Brown, but he'll never know unless he agrees. I would like to think it would lend some stability, but as has been posted by others, if we're going to clean house, then do it now.
I think he gets another year, but really don't think it matters -- what does, is what Homgren is thinking. We'll know shortly. And then we can go from there,....
Last edited by OoooRahJoice; 01/06/10 03:21 PM.
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from holmgren's presser that i posted a page ago in this thread Quote:
(On if having the same coaching philosophies is important to being on the same page with a head coach)- “I think it’s a little bit of the same page. All I care about is for the organization to win and set it up properly. That’s what I want. If you play a 3-4 defense and I am a four man line guy or if you run the spread offense and I am a West Coast guy, I don’t care. I really don’t care. I always thought it was a little bit funny. I learned my trade, if you will, under Bill Walsh who got credit for the West Coast offense, but actually if you asked Bill about it, it was Paul Brown. It’s a term I always thought, with all due respect, I always thought it was a little bit of a lazy term that you guys use sometimes, with all due respect. I took what I learned, I go to wherever I go and I am doing my thing and adding this, adding that, adding that and while philosophically, you might make an argument for West Coast, it was different. Jon Gruden worked for me. Andy Reid worked for me. (Steve) Mariucci worked for. All of these guys, Mike Sherman. They all learned what we did, but then they go to their places and it changes. I think if you look at football, unless if you are running the Wildcat or one of those things that they are doing now, you see a lot of similarities in offense. I wouldn’t get too bogged down in that. I believe I can contribute a little to the offensive thinking. I’m not going to coach the team. I am not going to coach the team, but in the offseason and meetings, if someone wants to come in and talk football with me, I’d love that. I still enjoy that. I hope they do that, but I have a different gig now. I am not going to coach the football team. We will hire coaches to coach the football team.”
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I understand the optimism, but not sure I agree that he's the savior everyone thinks he is.
I'm not sure who is saying he's the savior... I think he's got an excellent chance of success and I base that on his years of experience and the success he's already had....
But Savior,, that would be a leap.. I'll call him that if he actually saves the franchise from further embarrassment....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Off topic.................Nobody covers their ass like Chris Mortensen. 
When he's right he gloats on national TV, and when he's wrong he deflects and throws out disclaimers. And before the fact, when he doesn't know, he doesn't give much of an opinion at all.
The first two are human nature, but the last one is the one that irks me.
When asked point-blank whether or not Mangini is gone, he spent about 10 full seconds going Quote:
"he....uh.......um........well........it's an interesting situation........Holmgren........ummm......well.........look.....He-um......"
The best Mort gave was that he felt the odds were stronger than Mangini would go, but he then spent more time giving himself an out by giving all the reasons he could stay.
Now watch when Mangini's fate is finalized, Mort is going to crow like a Banty-Rooster.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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We all knew it wasn't going to happen in one year, now suddenly everyone is willing to throw it on the trash heap, even though it's starting to work, simply because Holmgren steps in.
I don't get the unbridled optimism... Is it because of the awesome success of the vaunted Seattle franchise? The Holmgren tree? Mooch who failed miserably in Detroit? Gruden who took Dungy's team and went to the SB, but couldn't do a thing after that? Reid who can't win a game when it matters? Sherman's incredible GB dynasty? Dick Jauron? Ray Rhodes? Wow. Its it that he developed Brett Farve? Hasselbeck? Is it the fact that he won a SB once in GB fourteen years ago?
He does have an impressive won-loss record, but his drafts are on the mediocre side, and his ego is as big as a house. He's here because he gets the power and Lerner threw down the gauntlet. I want him to succeed, I really do. He has a good football mind and a very good (above .500) playoff record, but that doesn't mean he farts roses, turns water into wine and knows everything about everything football. Mangini has things going in the right direction finally, and now, because of ego, (the very knock against Mangini,) it looks like we start over once again, and there is no guarantee that Holmgren and his minions will be any more successful than Mangini may be if given the chance. The fans & the press had it wrong with Belichik and I believe they have it wrong with Mangini. JMHO
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Mangini has things going in the right direction finally
We do not know that and 4 wins against mediocre competition doesn't prove we are running in the right direction.
If you're going to be that hard on a guy who has been successful everywhere he goes, then you certainly cannot turn a blind eye to Eric Mangini's failures as well. He was, outside of his first year in NYC, a disaster. His first 12 games with the Cleveland Browns was a disaster.
What has Eric Mangini really showed us anyway? That he can run the ball against teams who just do not care? The only good thing Mangini showed was that he will have his guys play to the final whistle and that he can instill discipline.
Oh and the guys that you mentioned on Holmgren? Mariucci has a career winning record, Andy Reid has a winning record, Gruden not only has a winning record but a Super Bowl, Sherman has a very clear winning record, Ray Rhodes was a terrific coordinator as was Dick Jauron.
Holmgren has a knack of hiring people who are more than capable to execute their jobs. If we were to look at the Personnel people he hired, this post would be much longer. The fact of the matter is, if Holmgren says that he doesn't want, trust, need, or see anything in Mangini, I should trust him because of his track record, despite any sort of perceived improvements we have made.
you had a good run Hank.
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Mangini has things going in the right direction finally, and now, because of ego, (the very knock against Mangini,) it looks like we start over once again, and there is no guarantee that Holmgren and his minions will be any more successful than Mangini may be if given the chance.
O.k...U asked for it..Fans, hoped that Mangini might learn from his first go around in NY.
I think the lesson he learned was that he felt he needed to be in complete control of everything, top to bottom, to be successful.
He gave Lerner whatever buff and shine job he needed to get the puppet, Kokinis, hired.
What happened after that is another soap opera in a line of discontinued series of ridiculous and embarrasing things that happen to Cleveland..
Once it all fell through and Randy learned that the organization he wanted and was promised was not forming, all bets were off, and he wiped his hands.
Remember after the BEARS game he was steamed.. Not only did Lerner not trust Mangini, he finally didn't trust himself to decide Mangini's fate and then make the right choices to replace him.
Then Bernie is brought in to be a voice to the offense...really,if EM was going a stellar job why was this needed?
Since Randy's pronouncement of a search for a football ops president, a credible leader mind U ,Mangini has stated during interviews and press conferences that he is willing to do whatever it takes to improve the team, or words to that effect. He repeatedly states that he loves the Cleveland Browns.
He certainly has sounded like someone who knows his job is on the line, but that could be just the public relations in him talking. During Monday's press conference Mangini was asked if he felt he needed to sell Holmgren on keeping him. His response was was something along the lines of, "No, I don't look at it that way.
But fact is the owner as realizing that was told to me was a whole lot different than what was happening and the fans were ready to revolt against the team..
Sooo if yer boy was doing a bang up job and the owner felt so,there wouldn't be the need to finally get the structure in palce the way it should have been 5-8 years ago.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/06/10 04:02 PM.
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even though it's starting to work
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I don't get the unbridled optimism...
I could easily say that going on a FLUKE four-game winning streak isn't cause for "unbridled optimism." 
Just sayin'.
To answer your question, the difference is that for the first time since Lerner has taken over the reigns, a FOOTBALL GUY is going to make the FOOTBALL DECISIONS as it pertains to the team itself.
Just the simple fact that Lerner isn't calling the shots is reason for optimism.
Then there's the fact that we're entering "Homertime" which begins the very moment the previous season ends.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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While I agree for the most part, I am going to go against your grain here,...we basically eliminated Pittsburgh and Jacksonville in what could be considered must-win situations. That says a lot.
I would be happier to actually hear and know what those 53 men in the huddle have to say.
While they might not have had anything to play for, look at how Oakland and KC played in their final week too, KC eliminating Denver.
From team-to-team, the NFL is just not that disparate. Just my opinion.
I am not the leader of the "Keep-Eric-Bandwagon." But I am not going to hang myself if he gets to stay. Back in Week Five ? I had the noose tied and the rope hanging off the garage rafter.
Just trying to be patient.
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Nah, he's probably just now applying a new coat of Carmex
Class, Toad... pure class.
Oh, and BTW... thanks so much for the (nastyass) image that conjures....
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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I am not going to hang myself if Mangini is fired either...but having more optimism that Mangini knows what to do rather than Holmgren is foolish. Holmgren has executed a football vision for 17 years in the NFL at a very high level. Mangini has been a failure of a head coach for 4 years. I'm going to trust Holmgren on this one.
you had a good run Hank.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Hall of Famer
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Nah, he's probably just now applying a new coat of Carmex
Class, Toad... pure class.
Oh, and BTW... thanks so much for the (nastyass) image that conjures....
As always, Clemmy, you're welcome............
...........I live to serve.
(as an aside, I was talking about kissing shoes, just in case..........you know..........  )
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,827
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As I was driving to work this am I was listening to Mort on the Mike and Mike show. He did pose an interesting question. He wondered if Holmgren gave Brett Farve a call.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Please God, no. Don't even suggest that. I know it's not plausible at all. But I don't even want to think of that.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
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I am not going to hang myself if Mangini is fired either...but having more optimism that Mangini knows what to do rather than Holmgren is foolish. Holmgren has executed a football vision for 17 years in the NFL at a very high level. Mangini has been a failure of a head coach for 4 years. I'm going to trust Holmgren on this one.
I don't see anyone harboring that idea,...I think most of us all trust Holmgren. 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
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Please God, no. Don't even suggest that. I know it's not plausible at all. But I don't even want to think of that.
He didn't mean it that way. He meant in order to get his opinion on Mangini.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,532
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,532 |
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As I was driving to work this am I was listening to Mort on the Mike and Mike show. He did pose an interesting question. He wondered if Holmgren gave Brett Farve a call.
 
Please O please dont call Favre....I want no part of that guy here
Mike 
#brownsgoodkarma
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
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As I was driving to work this am I was listening to Mort on the Mike and Mike show. He did pose an interesting question. He wondered if Holmgren gave Brett Farve a call.
Then we need to fire Holmgren NOW,....
Seriously, somebody come in here and tell me what his current Viking contract is, so we can squelch this crap,....
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234 |
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As I was driving to work this am I was listening to Mort on the Mike and Mike show. He did pose an interesting question. He wondered if Holmgren gave Brett Farve a call.
WHAT TOAD ALREADY SAID. Only to see what Farve had to say about Mangini. That was it. I listened to it as well.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887
Hall of Famer
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Like Toad said the whole "Calling Favre" was for information on Mangini and what happend last year in NY and NOT to come here and be our QB.
Thats the way I took it at least.
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,532
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,532 |
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Like Toad said the whole "Calling Favre" was for information on Mangini and what happend last year in NY and NOT to come here and be our QB.
Thats the way I took it at least.
I sure hope thats all there was to it...that would be a very BAD first move 
#brownsgoodkarma
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