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Anyway,, I just don't think for a second that Holmgren is just buying into what mangini says.. I would bet you it's the other way around...
How much you got? 
OK,...you have a point. I really didn't mean that MH was now Mangini's boy. MH has said from the beginning that he wants consistencies in the way the coaches and FO think,..he doesn't want to micro-manage.
You want to believe that MH wants to "re-create" Mangini and the rest of the coaching staff. I'm saying that everything that's been said and done up to this point does not support that idea at all.
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Listening to this is making me chuckle.. 
MH is and has been consulting with Dumboll about offensive philosophies..who knows what those discussions actually entail..
He's either:
1- evaluating him to see if he's worth keeping and if so...
2- trying to evaluate the system to see if it's worth drafting for,which it probably isn't.
3- telling Daboll what he wants run,and seeing how familar he is with it..how fast can he impliment it..which seems more likely..
4- all the above..
He isn't just sitting around bringing in office people and preparing for FA/draft..
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MH is and has been consulting with Dumboll about offensive philosophies..who knows what those discussions actually entail..
Now you got me laughing as well.
Who says MH and Daboll are talking O philosophies? You already admitted you don't know what they're talking about,....but somehow you act like you do. You give a list of topics on a discussion you know nothing about,...can't say I disagree or agree,...like you,..I just don't know.
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How much you got?
27 cents 
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OK,...you have a point. I really didn't mean that MH was now Mangini's boy.
That was my point.., thanks for acknowledging it.. I don't' think Holmgren has anything to gain from maintaining the status quo unless he believes they can get the job done.. makes no sense.. Well, maybe it does if the people he eventually wants aren't available this year., But that's the only way..
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You want to believe that MH wants to "re-create" Mangini
Re-create..no.. Re-focus,, yeah, maybe.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Who says MH and Daboll are talking O philosophies? Oh my bad,they must be talkin' bout Pete Carroll leaving USC or the playoff weekend..  You already admitted you don't know what they're talking about I admitted I don't know the details of the conversation.. but even U should able to discern that offense,what MH knows and what MH wants to do is a huge part of the conversation.. You give a list of topics on a discussion you know nothing about I know..nothing??
Really..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/11/10 02:57 PM.
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Both Ryan & Mangini are defensive minds and can concentrate on that while leaving MH to work with Daboll.
Dumboll being a newbie offensive coordinator may actually look forward to being tutored by MH.
If u think Holmgren (El Prezidento) is going to be so deeply entrenched in any tutoring of an Offensive Coordinator...U crazy bud...That ain't gonna happen...Mikey's WAY to far up the food chain to spend time with a Coordinator...NO WAY...
This is what Holmgren has a GM for...Personnel...And a Head Coach for...
U r putting WAY to much stock in Holmgren being here and his WCO history...Ain't gonna happen that way...Presidents DO NOT get that deeply involved with what goes on on the field on Sundays...
U r WAY outta town with that thinking...And you'll be highly disappointed because of it...
Just because Holmgren's here doesn't mean HIS way trickles down to the HC...If it did...Daboll wouldn't be here...Nor would Mangini...NEITHER know chit about any WCO or a variant of it...
Holmgren's stabilizing the Front Office and giving the guys on the field a chance to show what they got...And it don't have a damn thing to do with what Holmgren would want in an Offensive Scheme...BANK THAT...Or Mangini woulda been history last Tuesday...
Go Browns!!!
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U r putting WAY to much stock in Holmgren being here and his WCO history...Ain't gonna happen that way...Presidents DO NOT get that deeply involved with what goes on on the field on Sundays...
I would agree normally ... but MH has already stated he hopes the OC and coach will both seek guidance on how to execute on offense. As he feels he knows the offensive side of the ball very well.
"I'm a mog. Half man, half dog. I'm my own best friend."
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No..I'm right in the ole ballpark..do U really think MH isn't looking at this offense and say:Well it looks o.k to me!"
No..I strongly feel he'll have incorporated some varient of that system while still having a solid running game..
He said he will be involved to a degree and to me that means showing them what to do with this offense..
It's going to be a level above the ole predictable stuff I've seen for a while..
And newsflash ...we hardly have anyone on the offensive side to show anything..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/11/10 05:56 PM.
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Nah.. from What I took form HIS words: "I'm not going to be coaching or instructing"
He said he would love it if people came by his office in the off seasons to discuss football etc, etc. I didn't get the impression he was going to be "hands on" when it came to any schemes or specific field decisions.
To me.. this was actually a disapointment. If true, we are going to miss out on his greatest asset.
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I really do think Mangini and Daboll are going to get some tutoring from MH,,, count on it..
he made the comment that he Wasn't going to coach the team, but that his door is open and anyone that wants to come in and talk football, he's ready.. not his exact quote,, but it's close..
I will bet anyone that wants to take the bet that Holmgren will be out on the practice field observiing constantly.. I'm sure he'll have input...
How much,, dunno,, but he will have some,, count on it..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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U r putting WAY to much stock in Holmgren being here and his WCO history...Ain't gonna happen that way...Presidents DO NOT get that deeply involved with what goes on on the field on Sundays...
I would agree normally ... but MH has already stated he hopes the OC and coach will both seek guidance on how to execute on offense. As he feels he knows the offensive side of the ball very well.
Normally I would also agree. I think people put way too much into this sort of childish notion of "mentoring" going on between players and between coaches but I suspect this is a unique case. The building is not a very big one, this is not an enourmous organization with 20 floors seperating the prez and some managers office. Holmgren has pretty much stated he'd like to help the team in tangible ways. And given that he still hasn't shed the coaching bug I could see Daboll & Holmgren and a white board working out plays. I hope so anyway.
"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
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Be a shame to waste the knowledge.
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Who says MH and Daboll are talking O philosophies?
Oh my bad,they must be talkin' bout Pete Carroll leaving USC or the playoff weekend..
No,..your bad is that you don't even know if this meeting between the 2 is even taking place.
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You already admitted you don't know what they're talking about
I admitted I don't know the details of the conversation.. but even U should able to discern that offense,what MH knows and what MH wants to do is a huge part of the conversation..
...again,...what is this "conversation" you speak of? Sounds more like your filling in the blanks to support an agenda.........."Dumboll".....really? You don't know the details of this supposed conversation yet in your infinate wisdom you do. If MH wants to run the O,..why in the world would he have retained a guy who's O #'s vastly improved in the second half of the season, just to say,...you're doing this all wrong? That makes absolutely no sense.
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You give a list of topics on a discussion you know nothing about
I know..nothing??
Really..
You said it yourself Attack. You said you have no idea what the discussion entailed. Which is it?
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Our offense squeaked by in those wins...tutoring and or mentoring would be welcome. We won our last 4 but it wasn't pretty.
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It's already been stated that Daboll has already sought out Holmgren for tutoring/mentoring... and I have little doubt that Big Mike will stop there. If there's one thing the man has is his blood, it is football - and running an organization, while the new challenge he seeks, will not be what he has been accustomed to. Nostalgia will creep in, so will the opportunity to be the Sage Advisor.
Will he be directly guiding things on offense? No, I do not believe he will do that.
Will he be watching and advising as often as necessary? Yes, I firmly believe that he will.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I see it akin to a Regimental CO that has experience leading a Battalion,..the Battalion CO as one who has lead a Company,...etc. It's all good.
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http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/01/cleveland_browns_set_to_announ.htmlCleveland Browns set to announce Tom Heckert as GM By Tony Grossi January 11, 2010, 4:58PM Browns President Mike Holmgren will announce Tom Heckert as his choice for team general manager on a 5:45 conference call. Heckert, the son of a former Browns scout of the same name, has been GM of the Philadelphia Eagles for the last four years and has worked in the team's personnel department since 2001. Heckert and Will Lewis, director of pro personnel of the Seattle Seahawks, were the only known candidates interviewed for the job. Lewis was back on the job in Seattle today and is not expected to be part of the announcement.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Heckert, the son of a former Browns scout of the same name,
Don't most sons have the same last name as their father? 
yebat' Putin
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I guess I can play this speculating game as well... I gotta disagree with you DnD.. Yes the PRESIDENT of Football Operations is the Grand Poobah in the structure but I am with Attack on this one.... MH has been quoted through several articles that he will have complete lattitude in his duties... That would fall in line with his comments of wanting to have the whole staff giving a collective effort to reach the common goal... Could they be chatting about implementing the WCO into the playbook?? Doubtfull but I think we would be naive to think that MH didnt' pick his brain about the scheme and offer suggestions... Hell for all we know Dumboll might have asked MH's opinion on what he could do to improve and ask him for suggestions... I think Attack's theory could be more in line with what happened the mor eI think about it... Again it is mere speculation but I wouldn't dismiss it just because of MH's title as President... He strikes me as the kind of guy that wants to have his finger on the pulse of all aspects under his control and IMHO that is a GREAT thing!
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Yep..STO just announced that the Browns contacted them and confirmed Heckert is a Brown.
The Browns are getting the cream of the crop, baby... 
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Yeah, well.... we've thought that in the past, too. Hopefully this time we don't look back in a few years and see that all we got was a bunch of spoiled buttermilk instead of the cream.  All signs do indeed point to this time being different, but as far as we know, we're just discovering one more way that doesn't work.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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It is a surreal feeling to have the kind of season offseason such as this... I AM SO glad we did not go with Pioli as our GM last year when we were searching as I truly feel we wouldn't be in the position to have a guy of Mike Holmgren's stature and maybe I am making some Koolaid and passing it around but I would take Heckert as our GM with MH as our president 10/10 times over Scott Pioli! Welcome aboard Tom... Now get to work drafting us some studs! 
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I think Attack's theory could be more in line with what happened the mor eI think about it... Again it is mere speculation but I wouldn't dismiss it just because of MH's title as President... He strikes me as the kind of guy that wants to have his finger on the pulse of all aspects under his control and IMHO that is a GREAT thing!
It IS a great thing...We finally have a PROVEN FOOTBALL GUY in charge of this place...
What it doesn't mean is Holmgren being on the field all the time trying to "Micro Manage" as he said he won't...He's gonna let Mangini COACH...And let the Coach Coach the Coordinators...
U want problems here???...Same page is what we hear all the time...Let Holmgren go shootin' his mouth off constantly to the coordinators and see exactly where we end up in a short period of time...I can think of 2 places that happens all the time...Dallas and Oakland...
Of course Holmgren's gonna be involved... Not anywhere near what I think many believe...He'd be USELESS if he didn't get involved...
Go Browns!!!
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Let Holmgren go shootin' his mouth off constantly to the coordinators and see exactly where we end up in a short period of time...
Agreed. There'd be plusses in Holmgren offering advice regarding "pure football" matters (no different than what Parcells probably does, for example), but I doubt MH wants to turn the on-field stuff into his own personal Big Show.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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...
U want problems here???...Same page is what we hear all the time...Let Holmgren go shootin' his mouth off constantly to the coordinators and see exactly where we end up in a short period of time...I can think of 2 places that happens all the time...Dallas and Oakland...
I think Jerry has learned,....he wasn't as "obvious" this season as in the past. Look how much better Dallas is playing ,...
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interesting tidbit from holmgren's call: Quote:
(On the relationship between Heckert and Mangini and why Heckert withdrew himself from consideration last year)- “They’ve been together all day today, I’ll tell you that. They seem to be doing fine. I didn’t hear any yelling down there. I went in there a couple times. I think that’s a good question to ask Tom tomorrow to be honest. I could give you my answer, what I think his reasons were. Ask him tomorrow, he’ll tell you. It had nothing to do with Eric. I had something to do with, I believe he’d tell you, about his situation in Philadelphia, what he wanted to accomplish there and so on. Absolutely ask him tomorrow.”
theobr.com
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interesting tidbit from holmgren's call:
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(On the relationship between Heckert and Mangini and why Heckert withdrew himself from consideration last year)- “They’ve been together all day today, I’ll tell you that. They seem to be doing fine. I didn’t hear any yelling down there. I went in there a couple times. I think that’s a good question to ask Tom tomorrow to be honest. I could give you my answer, what I think his reasons were. Ask him tomorrow, he’ll tell you. It had nothing to do with Eric. I had something to do with, I believe he’d tell you, about his situation in Philadelphia, what he wanted to accomplish there and so on. Absolutely ask him tomorrow.”
theobr.com
Wait, Heckert didn't come here last year because he wanted to work with Holmgren? Is that correct?
I wanna hear the answer to that question.
you had a good run Hank.
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BLASPHEMY!! It had to be because he hated Mangini 
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Holmgren said he heard this coming from the basement also. He thought it was Mangini and Daboll singing. You and me against the world Sometimes it feels like you and me against the world When all the others turn their back and walk away You can count on me to stay Remember when Ray Lewis came to town And you were frightened by that clown? Wasn't it nice to be around someone that you knew? Someone who was big and strong and looking out for You and me against the world Sometimes it feels like you and me against the world And for all the times we've cried I always felt that The odds were on our side And when one of us is gone And one of us is left to carry on Then remembering will have to do Our memories alone will get us through Think about the days of me and you Of you and me against the world 
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If you would have thought about what I said instead of what U assumed I said you'd understand ..
I doubt if MH micro-manages and thats not where I was going ..
But he is going to drop these boys some knowledge and show them how to run this offense and get the most out of it..
First we know,MH knows the Browns offense was offensive for the most part of the season..who didn't know that?
Who didn't see that nothing was done until that infamous game in Da-Bears world?
And for anyone thinking it..no light was turned on in Mangini's brain..as if he suddenly got it..
I would have loved to see the Browns against a playoff team in those last five games to see what would have happened...Suppose the Vikings/Packers or Rats had been in that schedule when Harrison was being used?
Anyway...MH has a football mind..good..he understands offensive football better than the current crop of coaches..sooo he's had conversations with Dumboll , and he's no doubt already imparted some helpful info..well there will be more..much more..
Cal..that was for U...since you don't want to accept that he has and will instruct these guys..but keep thinking EM and Daboll are the end all be all ..they're not...not anywhere close.
Now fast forward to when the players he and Heckert get...and the offense thats instilled,there's going to be plenty of dialog on what to do with the system and the players..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/12/10 10:30 AM.
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Heckert, the son of a former Browns scout of the same name,
Don't most sons have the same last name as their father?
Not all sons have the same First Name......
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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(On if the idea of mentoring someone weighed into his decision)- "I think we're all wired a certain way. In any job I ever took in coaching, it maybe just worked out that way, there were tremendous challenges in rebuilding something that appeared to be somewhat broken. I'm wired that way. Now this situation, I think it goes back to my old days when I was a high school history teacher and coach and all of that kind of stuff for 11 years. I really enjoyed it and you really get a chance to teach. When I became a pro coach, I looked at it the same way. Now I am in a different role certainly, but I'm still a teacher at heart. The thing is, on anything like that, the person has to want to also accept maybe some of your experience. That's also a two-way street. Yes, I like the thought and I hope I can do that. To make it really work, both sides have to want that to work and that's the feeling I got."
Did U and DnD read that?
Teacher at heart...person has to accept some of your experience..oh but perhaps that meant he didn't have any to give..lol...
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jc hiring Heckert was a very good move (for those who think I only bash decisions this org takes  ) tendencies from looking at his 2006-2009 Eagles drafts: - his 1st day drafts were strictly BPA - he found some late round contributors (Celek, Gaither, Fokou, Harris) - likes to draft "falling" prospects in mid to late rounds (Ingram, Harris, Gilles...similar to W.Justice in round 2 or McCoy)....certainly would have picked Maualuga for us at teh top of round 2 last season (or even traded up) - very active overall (traded up to get Maclin, W.Justice)...similar to Savage...trades up/down...away for future pick(s) - in 3 of 4 drafts he selected at least 2 OL (and thats with 7 selected in 04+05 combined) - loves to select a G in rounds 4-6 (love it...that's the position with most value in those rounds since not many are selected on 1st day and you're able to still get Top10 position talent) - round 3 seems to be his "flyer"/"boom or bust" round (Gocong, Hunt, B.Smith)...don't like this tendency (know many Eagles fans who share this) but many GMs in the league do this in round 3 (again similar to Savage here) - among Eagles fans round 5 is known to be his "money" round where he gets very good value...he loves to take those "falling" 1st day talents here - got very little out of 6th+7th round...but their roster is loaded and many from those rounds got picked up by other teams and are still in the league
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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hiring Heckert was a very good move (for those who think I only bash decisions this org takes )
wait...you mean you're not a troll/ravens fan/bengals fan/steelers fan/browns hater/the devil?
but i do agree. that said, i'm still a little reluctant given that reid apparently got that final say so we don't know who heckert had wanted in the past, for good or for bad. that said, he comes from a great organization who is very strong in drafting so i'm sure it's a significant upgrade for us.
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Quote:
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Heckert, the son of a former Browns scout of the same name,
Don't most sons have the same last name as their father?
Not all sons have the same First Name......
I understand that.. but the article doesn't say "TOM Heckert, the son of a former Browns scout of the same name,"... it just says "Heckert... "
yebat' Putin
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(On if the idea of mentoring someone weighed into his decision)- "I think we're all wired a certain way. In any job I ever took in coaching, it maybe just worked out that way, there were tremendous challenges in rebuilding something that appeared to be somewhat broken. I'm wired that way. Now this situation, I think it goes back to my old days when I was a high school history teacher and coach and all of that kind of stuff for 11 years. I really enjoyed it and you really get a chance to teach. When I became a pro coach, I looked at it the same way. Now I am in a different role certainly, but I'm still a teacher at heart. The thing is, on anything like that, the person has to want to also accept maybe some of your experience. That's also a two-way street. Yes, I like the thought and I hope I can do that. To make it really work, both sides have to want that to work and that's the feeling I got."
Did U and DnD read that?
Teacher at heart...person has to accept some of your experience..oh but perhaps that meant he didn't have any to give..lol...
In no way have i ever suggested that MH will not mentor or teach,I fully expect and hope that he will. If you're going to quote him and believe what he says than believe EVERYTHING he's saying,not just the parts you like.
From Mikes presser:
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(On who would make player personnel and scouting decisions)- "After we get things in place, that will be the general manager's responsibility with input from me. With Eric as an example, he will have responsibility for his coaches and his coaching staff. I reserve the right to, not make that decision, but certainly discuss thing with both Eric and Tom about those positions. They will be responsible for their departments."
Now,..what part of that quote would make you believe that he's sitting down with Daboll and telling him exactly how HE wants him to run the O? If anything, any message that MH wants to convey to Daboll will go through Mangini.
Attack, this is what u said earlier:
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MH is and has been consulting with Dumboll about offensive philosophies..who knows what those discussions actually entail..
He's either:
1- evaluating him to see if he's worth keeping and if so...
2- trying to evaluate the system to see if it's worth drafting for,which it probably isn't.
3- telling Daboll what he wants run,and seeing how familar he is with it..how fast can he impliment it..which seems more likely..
4- all the above
From what you know now,...do you still stand behind this?
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Hall of Famer
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From what you know now,...do you still stand behind this? Please,I ain't on trial in here.. Daboll already went to talk to him ,how many times does that need to be repeated to you?
So why should I or feel like I need to retreat?
I don't..
He already said he will have imput ..Point being, he knows offense, he knows what he wants and expects in a offense and will have 'input'..and imput means system and how to run it, even if it's a system that Gini is more familar with..
Now if U or someone else can convince me that Daboll doesn't need any advice ,why did he go to him?
Oh wait,paying him a courtesy visit?
Perhaps because the browns were a offensive juggernaut all year?
Put it all together and he won't be sitting idly watching and playing tic tac toe..
That little quote of yours that you threw in there does not imply system used.. but player personnel and scouting as it plainly said....Maningin and Heckert..guess you were desperate to use any quote to your advantage..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/12/10 01:26 PM.
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I still find it hard to believe that Daboll will be the " OC " come opening day !
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,070
Dawg Talker
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From what you know now,...do you still stand behind this?
Please,I ain't on trial in here.
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Daboll already went to talk to him ,how many times does that need to be repeated to you?
Have they exchange words? probably. Did Daboll by-pass his coach and start talking O philosophies with MH,..and MH was OK with that? probably not.
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So why should I or feel like I need to retreat?
I don't..
Give it some more time.
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He already said he will have imput ..Point being, he knows offense, he knows what he wants and expects in a offense and will have 'input'..and imput means system and how to run it, even if it's a system that Gini is more familar with..
I agree,..but i think where we differ is the amount of force delivered with that input. MH has stressed that there will a distinctive chain of command that he will make sure remains a cohesive unit.MH is Heckerts boss,Heckert is Manginis Boss,and Mangini is Dabolls boss.Although MH is the "big boss" he is holding each person accountable for their position and the positions of the people working under them. Mike is not going to throw his weight around(no pun intended) and make evryone else around him powerless. Mike cannot and will not act as a dictator. I know how much you hate the current staff and would want Mike to behave this way,...but it won't,...because we would definately fail.
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That little quote of yours that you threw in there does not imply system used.. but player personnel and scouting as it plainly said....Maningin and Heckert..guess you were desperate to use any quote to your advantage..
The little quote I used was the example MH used when referring to what Heckerts role would be concerning player personnel and scouting. You didn't get that? Heckert will have the final say in the authorities given to him such as player personnel and scouting...MUCH LIKE Mangini will have with his coaching staff,...you know,..who stays,who goes,..that sorta thing.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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I still find it hard to believe that Daboll will be the " OC " come opening day !
Based on Holmgrens comments on the conference call,, he may not be. Depends on who comes available...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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