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not picking on you loyal cause I agree with most everything you said. It's the giving Mangini credit for Roth. I like Mangini and hoped we'd keep him. I think the draft was better than most gave him credit for. (in year one no less). I just don't think it was that hard to want to get Roth. I'm pretty sure a lot of other teams put in a claim, but we had the worst record at the time. Roth was a no brainer that everyone wanted once Miami was dumb enough to drop. We just lucked out  having a bad record. Still I agree with you and am excited for next year.
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My expectations were 16-0. We failed. Fire everyone!  Oh, and next year, I want Bill Billicheck as the coach. 
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Yeah, but I cannot see RAC or Savage getting him..He is actively looking for the type of players he wants...Those qualities he listed and stresses and it is starting to show in terms of How those guys played together. Even in a short period of time, the signs of what he wants this Team to resemble is positive.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Quote:
I hope they don't allow that bonehead have any input at all into the draft.
Dude... if you were torqued at Holmgren's decision to keep Mangini, you're really gonna hate this sparkling little dose of reality:
Mangini will have plenty to say in terms of the draft... and he'll be heard, too. Much as it might chafe your Fruit Of The Looms, it's also the right way things should be done.
That's how professionally-run teams do it. The GM's put together their scout teams, and send them out with a list of needs. The scouts sniff out the hot prospects, then report back to the GM. The GM then assembles his short list of realistic draft prospects, and gets ready for draft day.
But wait- let's back up one important step, shall we? ...and ask the most important question in this entire scenario:
Where do you think that original "list of needs" comes from?
I'll connect the dots for you... the list comes from the Head (Freakkin') Coach.
Even if the GM overrules the HC in the final selection of a specific player, Mangini will have still had input into the hire. And why? It's simple: noone else knows the team makeup as well as the Head Coach. Noone else who's higher up in the executive chain sees the players every single day of their professional lives. Noone else has benefit of day-to-day, on-the-field analysis of the players we already have... and noone else is better qualified to know who needs to be replaced, and why. That's one of the Head Coach's most importants behind-the-scenes jobs.
What you propose... a total handcuffing of the Head Coach and a total shutout of the personnel process... is what seems boneheaded to me. It's also the most pertinent (and justifiable) reason that RAC and Phil are no longer employed together at 76 Groza. RAC sent in his requests, and Phil picked whomever he wanted. Two admins on different pages. Result: failure. More embarassment to Browns fans, a 4-12 season, and a total purge of pretty much everyone below Randy Lerner's position. And you want to set something up JUST LIKE THAT before Holmgren has even spent a full work week here as Prez?
Brick... meet skull... please.
(Hopefully, the brick has a clue wrapped around it...)
Yeah... you go on with yo bad self, and call Mangini a bonehead. For that matter, why waste time? Why not be the first Browns fan to call Mike Holmgren a bonehead as well... because he's the one who re-upped the current HC/staff, while simultaneously failing to execute....
...uh...
...Dean's
"master plan."
Something tells me that neither Heckert nor Lewis are looking over their shoulders worrying about... uh... Dean... being on Holmgren's speed-dial this weekend.
Let us all know how that 'Executive Vice President of (Cleveland Browns) Player Personnel' interview works out after this weekend, won't you?
[shakes head slowly]
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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OverToad: I WAS WRONG!! Jan 07 2010 03:19 PM
You've fessed up before i'm sure. Didn't the Frawg in your sig get replaced one time on the old board with some kind of Crow eating animation?
Anywho, I'm glad Mangenius is back for another crack....... 
#gmstrong
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Now that's the one of the best posts I have read in some time... nice job, Clem.
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And it's not like Mangini's draft was "bad" when you look at how several players have done...
Alex Mack has been as good as any rookie and I guarantee Massaquoi would have shown much more promise if Braylon were still around. He wouldn't dominate like he did that Bengals game every game, but he'd be facing single coverage more. Maiava hasn't been as dominant as his other USC teammates, but he hasn't been horrible. He has been part of that improved defense down the stretch with Bowens in the middle, by the way.
If Heckert really is our guy, I'd have to imagine we'd try once again to trade down from #7 unless there's someone there we covet. Man, when it's all said and done we could have about 15 selections in this draft (!). (Gotta believe DA is the first of a several trades for picks) Actually, if I were them I'd use those picks to trade into the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds as often as possible.
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Damn Clem,, I really hate it when you hold back 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Do you all see why I made my Miss Cleo comment the other day.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Quote:
Mangini will have plenty to say in terms of the draft... and he'll be heard, too. Much as it might chafe your Fruit Of The Looms, it's also the right way things should be done.
Clem..Mangini was hired to coach the team, not be the GM or the franchise's draft guru.
When it comes to the 2010 draft, I'm sure Holmgren and the GM will include Mangini and the coaches and affix a value to their opinions, but ultimately, Mangini will never again have the power over the Browns draft that he had last year.
Mangini's days as HC and "acting" GM in charge of the draft, are over.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Do you all see why I made my Miss Cleo comment the other day.
Yes Maam.... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Well Mac, if you listened to Holmgren the other day, you would think that it's an equal partnership between the powers that be.. those being the GM, HC and in this case, the Pres.. Going deeper, MH seemed to expect imput from position coaches as well.. and no way you do this without listening to your scouts.. in other words, while the final decision may rest with either him or the new GM, he expects it to be a group effort.
Holmgren made another comment that demonstrates his thinking,, he said that Ron Wolf once told him that he would never make him take a player he didn't want.
I got from that that Holmgren would not force feed a player down his coaches throat either. His coach now being Mangini tells me that Eric will have a big say in what they do.
All as it should be.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Daman...not a thing wrong with "listening" to Mangini...but he will not be in charge of the draft like he was last season. That power is gone..those days are gone...and that is a good thing for the franchise, IMO.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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This would also mean that we aren't running the WCO here it would seem.
Maybe ,maybe not..just because EM is still here doesn't mean someone is going to strongly suggest a system to run..
As long as Mangini doesn't have control over the roster I honestly do not see a problem giving him another year
I see a conflict..somewhere along the way.
How do you approach an offseason with 11 draft picks and unlimited cap space since EM is being retained?
How will MH attract any quality FA's to come to Berea to play for Mangini who are not Ex- Jets?
Not saying it won't be done just saying ...
Don't forget that Holmgren made a point of saying he thinks he can help on offense...help can mean a lot of things..what to run ,how to run it..
I'm of the opinion EM had to accept that was a likely thing if he wanted to stay. IMO , Holmgren told him how things would be and the first order of business was to see if EM could accept that or instead wanted to resign.
The Dumboll scheme will not affect the draft.
And I firmly believe Kosar had a lot of imput in some the things that were done toward the end of the season..nothing could be done to the passing game because we had no quality QB and reciever production..
Since he really didn't have a scheme Holmgren can draft for a WCO and it will force Dumboll to use those portions of his playbook more. The draft will push the play selection, not the other way around.
I'm brainstorming off some things brought to my attention..
Holmgren has made some comments that hint of his love of coaching. If you read between the lines, or into his words, you might conclude that MH really would like to coach again.
The way he's building the front office might indicate that he's creating a strong, layered structure that would easily support him moving onto the sidelines....in a year.
And have someone else step in and do the executive stuff..or not..
The biggest question left now centers around the QB position and how Holmgren views that position and the QBs on the roster.
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Quote:
Daman...not a thing wrong with "listening" to Mangini...but he will not be in charge of the draft like he was last season. That power is gone..those days are gone...and that is a good thing for the franchise, IMO.
Well, yeah.. I agree.. his overall, final decision making time is over.. no question about it.
I can't help but think that organizations that build winners do so as a group effort.. No dictators.. That's what it "appears' we had here last year.. and that's not good for any organization.
Holmgren said in his presser on Tuesday that, and I'm paraphrasing here, individual kingdoms won't work.. According to Mike, those days are over here.. Welcome news don't you agree?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Holmgren has made some comments that hint of his love of coaching. If you read between the lines, or into his words, you might conclude that MH really would like to coach again.
The way he's building the front office might indicate that he's creating a strong, layered structure that would easily support him moving onto the sidelines....in a year.
And have someone else step in and do the executive stuff..or not..
Tacker...as I have said, Holmgren does not seem to be willing to close the coaching door yet.
As of now, it appears that Holmgren is keeping his options open as well as the option to hire a HC he chooses...maybe a Gruden.
It sure looks as though Holmgren is adopting a "go slow" approach toward building the Browns in his image and according to Holmgren's past successful methods that took two different teams to the Super Bowl.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Now that Mangini's sitting in the catbirds seat he gets a clean slate with me and we'll see what he can do next year.
Maybe we have differing definitions of catbird seat because I hardly think Mangini is in a position of real power. Especially if the one report is true that Holmgren agreed, before he signed on, to keep Mangini for one more year. That would indicate to me that unless that one year is fantastic that MH would then go ahead and select someone more to his liking.
As far as the clean slate......sure we all want the Browns to win. But after having watched a fair amount of wretched football in the last 10 years and especially in 2009 I doubt EM gets a fully clean slate from anyone.
But, as Al Davis used to say, "Just win, baby".
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Do you all see why I made my Miss Cleo comment the other day.
I understood, because I used miss Cleo to ask her what you ment, and she told me ahead of time there was gonna also be free beer in it for me from you. Ms. Cleo said 
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Daman...not a thing wrong with "listening" to Mangini...but he will not be in charge of the draft like he was last season. That power is gone..those days are gone...and that is a good thing for the franchise, IMO.
No, he is not going to organize and preside over it...but he is going to have SERIOUS input over the players that will make the final lists. There will not be a single player on the final list that Mangini doesn't approve of. The GM and other members of the FO will not be sitting idly by either.....and if there is a conflict...I am sure Holmgren makes the final call.....but make no mistake that the draft board will show large Mangini influences. It is just that those influences will most likely be shared by the rest of the FO ....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Mangini does`nst surprise me...the whole coaching staff does....
If I put myself in Holmgren's shoes, then I have to look at this coach I've decided to retain.. who I'm paying millions of dollars.. and I've got to think that I either trust him or I don't. If I don't, I get rid of him.. if I do then I've got to give him the latitude to hire/fire his coordinators and assistants.
I like the move, all of it. I'm glad he didn't keep Mangini but emasculate him by demanding that he change coordinators.... then if the offense blows next year who do you blame? the new coordinator? Mangini? Holmgren? This way it all funnels up to Mangini who has to take full responsibility for the end product... There can't be any of Mangini saying, "We had it going toward the end last year, our running game was really hitting stride, I had to switch coordinators and now we suck again."
Mangini knows his job is on the line, he knows he'll be on a short leash next year, if he wants to put his trust in Daboll, then you have to let him go with it.
Just my $.02.
yebat' Putin
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He'll have input,...he's the Head Coach. I am interested in how much influence the FO institutes in establishing a WCO, or if at all. Seems the drift is Mangini will be making that call, so it remains to be seen. I think it's a "good faith" effort on Holmgren's part, keeping the staff. I'm on board,....it's all I can do. 
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Quote:
I WAS WRONG!!
lol 
Don't sweat it, it's a good thing.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I still think he's a crappy coach but I can see the logic. Guess we'll see......
Why do you think he's a crappy coach?
Please stick to coaching, not personnel, in your answers.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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As it should be, Mangini needs to be comfortable with and have confidence in, the players that come into the Browns camp. That's totally different than saying he should have absolute control...
yebat' Putin
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further, i'm just as interested in how the media will treat mangini in the future. on the eve of the decision, it seems like many were warming up to mangini. it was clear they made a decision about him but then after seeing some of the tv spots he had and reading the cbssportsline article, they all saw they he was actually genuine in his pressers, something they probably refused to believe at first.
it's starting to look like a strong FO, strong coaching staff, positive support from the media, and as a result, even stronger fanbase then any other time since 99. pretty exciting stuff.
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A.M. Cleveland Browns Links: Holmgren retains Mangini; Trust
By Starting Blocks
January 08, 2010, 7:51AM
web page
Mike Holmgren decided to retain Cleveland Browns coach Eric Mangini, and Ohio.com's Marla Ridenour asks the question: Now what?
Keeping Mangini, writes Ridenour, raises questions about the future. If Mangini, Holmgren and a new general manager cannot co-exist, will Holmgren elect to return to coaching?
Did keeping Mangini play a part that attractive candidates such as Jon Gruden and John Fox might be available next year?
Did the league's uncertain future make Holmgren and owner Randy Lerner reluctant to spend big on a new coach when there might be no football the following season?
Lump into that category the millions that Lerner is still paying former coach Romeo Crennel, former GM Phil Savage and former offensive coordinator Rob Chudzinski, making up the difference between the latter's salary with the San Diego Chargers.
Same coach: Columnist Jim Ingraham of The News-Herald was taken by surprised when Mike Holmgren retained coach Eric Mangini.
Ingraham was so shocked, he wrote this poem:
There once was a coach named Mangini,
With charisma as flat as linguine.
But he won his last four
To escape the trap door.
This guy ain't a coach, he's Houdini!
In Mangini, Holmgren trusts: Ohio.com's Pat McManamon writes about Mike Holmgren's decision to retain coach Eric Mangini. McManamon, like many others, are surprised that Mangini will remain with the Browns.
Holmgren is asking the doubters — me among them — to take the leap of faith.
If we do, it's because of Holmgren.
It would be nice to expand on Holmgren's thinking, but he did not explain it except in a one-paragraph statement in a news release.
Fans deserved better for such an important decision, especially after such a tumultuous season. And yes, it's fair to call it tumultuous, even with the four-game winning streak.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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jc
Well, at least we will have continuity(in losing).
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Quote:
Please stick to coaching, not personnel, in your answers.
Thanks for letting me know what I can put in my posts. That makes it a lot easier.
The opinion still stands, though. I don't think he's much of a coach. Guess we'll see next year.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Those are some crazy good reasons. Well done!
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I guess the Cleveland media never changes. "The fans deserve better" crap again lol
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Quote:
Why do you think he's a crappy coach?
Wow, Rish...dindt' expect this coming from you since I always thought you were sick of the predictable play calling too...at least they almost always made your postgame thread
anyway...my problem is, was and will be the play calling....run, run, pass, punt on Offense and a very annoying "not to lose" bend but don't break on D (there where games where it was more aggressive, ie PIT or OAK games...I found that Bowens locker room interview interesting after he explained WHY they gave Ryan the Gatorade bath: he said something like "it was his game, HE called it" ...he stressed the "he"....would love to know if he did so in the other games or if he was allowed to run his plays over EM's at the end of the season)
after all, no other team in the league gained less yds on Offense and only 1 allowed more...that's pathetic...even on our 4 games win streak, we allowed lots of yds (KC, OAK) and struggled passing (all year)...= we were inconsistent (like before)...we also got outmanaged at the half quite a bit....look up our 3rd Qtr score...it's horrible, I think 1 of the worst if not THE worst if I remember correctly
crazyotto isn't alone here...I too think he's a horrible gameday manager and playcaller...his gameplans are average, not bad, lack some imagination but I've seen worse...but his adjustments and the play calling are simply horrible imho...
we won't be able to run the ball the way we did to end the season (very dominant....but OAK and KC are probably the 2 weakeast Front 7's in the league...and JAX isn't much better and played very soft overall (warm weather team in December CLE didnt help) against decent teams (as we've seen the games before)
we also repeatedly punted from or inside the opp's 40 with 4th and under 10yds to go...he did that in games in the 2nd Half being down 2 scores or more....that's just bad on so many levels
He did instill discipline and lessened the penalties and that's a clear positive...but there was no progress made (compared to Browns teams of recent years) on the actual Offense and Defense plays, the athletic part of coaching (which I overall deem more importnat, because that's where you win 80% of your games after all)...in fact I see a lot of RE-gression (completely butchered non-existing passing game anyone?)...Defense looks like Romeo's: passive, allows chunks of yds, controls the pts/game (still bad though, bottom 3rd), inconsistent (1 good game, 2 bad ones...even at the end) and can't safe a W (DET, 1st CIN game)
Now, I've listed my concerns of Mangini the Coach...I think most of them are valid and hardly debatable...I'd now LOVE to hear/read a list of those who think Mangini is a decent HC...I'm waiting (I asked this question all season...all I got is AIR...I don't expect much more now...I fully expect the "MH is smarter than you" and other personal BS to reappear though, lol)
You know, just because he sucks as a front office man it doesn't make him a better HC (well relatively MAYBE...but there are scales from horrible to good, right?)
Anxiously awaiting...
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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I don't think he's much of a coach. Guess we'll see next year.
You don't have to wait til next year,..just look at the second half of THIS season.
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Quote:
I don't think he's much of a coach. Guess we'll see next year.
You don't have to wait til next year,..just look at the second half of THIS season.
cal...if the Browns continue winning, fine...BUT...Mangini was 1-5 against teams in the AFC North.
If that doesn't improve, Mangini could be in trouble.
Next season, we shall see...the last 4 games...they are now history.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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0-4 against playoff teams and 1-1 against the Stoolers (who because of us are not a playoff team). Not braggin' rights here but obvious strides have been made. Under the exact same conditions, I cannot see another coach who could have accomplished more.
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cal...if the Browns continue winning, fine...BUT...Mangini was 1-5 against teams in the AFC North.
If that doesn't improve, Mangini could be in trouble.
But Mangini is the last coach to beat the Steelers in the last dozen tries!
But Tim Couch is the last QB to beat the Steelers!
Now you see the futility and narrow-minded view of such statements....................
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Posts: 9,693 |
Quote:
But Tim Couch is the last QB to beat the Steelers!
Now you see the futility and narrow-minded view of such statements...
You're on a run. Wrong again. The last QB to beat the Steelers would be Quinn. And if you think Mangini's win over PukePit is insignificant, you've gone and lost your freaking mind. 
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
The win over Pittsburgh is very significant to us fans and the players.
To coaches and front office types it's just another win. Luckily for Mangini it just happened to be a win that started a four game win streak.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Don't forget what it meant to the franchise as a whole... Oh, and ask Tomlin and his minions from hell if they thought the loss was significant as they watch the playoffs from the comfort of their Lazyboys.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
But Tim Couch is the last QB to beat the Steelers!
Now you see the futility and narrow-minded view of such statements...
You're on a run. Wrong again. The last QB to beat the Steelers would be Quinn. And if you think Mangini's win over PukePit is insignificant, you've gone and lost your freaking mind.
Actually, I wasn't, because that goes back to comments Mac made over the last several years talking about how Couch was a viable QB "because he was the only QB to beat Pitt."
Pointing out the inconsistencies in his comments. Ya dig?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Oh. And here I was only reading what you wrote.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Source: Mangini to return in 2010
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