DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Cribbs contract/trade talks

You are welcome

Hey,...I forgot Dick "The Crusher."

You watch a lot of porn?

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Right now, I would bet on Joe Thomas being "next" in that regard.

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Dude's going to get franchise tagged like Orlando Pace during his productive years with the Rams.

He isn't just a special teamer, that's the point. We have only scratched the surface of how we can use him in the Wildcat. And we've never let him air it out at all either.

He's not just a STer, and that is my point.

Plus, imagine we would have traded Cribbs for the pick of Robiskie? Would that have helped our 11 and 11? Nope, nada! Then you subtract what Cribbs brought on the Offense and STs and that would be a flat loss.

That's the risk. We could get a gem, we could get a dud. If we get a dud, we are cutting off our nose despite our face considering the impressive production Cribbs brings to our team....on a team lacking in playmakers and emotional leaders.

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He isn't just a special teamer, that's the point. We have only scratched the surface of how we can use him in the Wildcat. And we've never let him air it out at all either.

He's not just a STer, and that is my point.

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unfortunately, he IS just a STer. you can cite the wildcat but the problem is he's our best player because we were lacking in other areas. i'm sorry, i don't buy in that we just started tapping his ability in the wildcat. we know he can run well with the ball and we've seen he's not a good thrower. it's like tom brady's quote when he was talking about edelman:

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It's pretty remarkable what he's done as a former quarterback, which I don't know how he was a former quarterback because he can't throw at all," Brady joked. "He tries to tell me, 'Yeah, I threw for 2,000 yards.' I'm like, 'Man, you can't hit that wall over there.' And somehow he was playing [at Kent State]. I'm glad he plays receiver and not quarterback anymore, for his sake and our sake."

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http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/columns/story?columnist=forsberg_chris&id=4805792

cribbs' throws have been awful.

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Plus, imagine we would have traded Cribbs for the pick of Robiskie? Would that have helped our 11 and 11? Nope, nada! Then you subtract what Cribbs brought on the Offense and STs and that would be a flat loss.

That's the risk. We could get a gem, we could get a dud. If we get a dud, we are cutting off our nose despite our face considering the impressive production Cribbs brings to our team....on a team lacking in playmakers and emotional leaders.

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at least you acknowledge that you could get a gem because i could easily say, instead of robo, if we drafted someone like desean jackson, i'd say he'd have a pretty significant impact. kick returners...there'll always be kick returners. cribbs is a great player but all he was last season was one of the best players on a crappy team.

Okay we differ on that point of him being under-used in the Wildcat.

With that being said, here is the brass tax on the situation:
#1 SPECIAL STer + more money = great production, arguably the best in the league
#2 Risk on a draft pick + probably nearly as much money = we don't know

I will take the playmaker and emotional leader for more money, that would be my choice, especially with our history of drafting.

i don't think anyone argued whether or not cribbs deserved more money. i just don't think emotions and hype support an argument to pay cribbs now, with 3 years left on a 6-year contract. especially after the juvenile actions of cribbs' agents and cribbs' national media tour talking about his money.

After considerable consideration and after reading several good reads...

I've changed my mind. He signed a contract. Let him play it out. His contract is good through the 2012 season and he'll be 28 or 29 by then. His value will have gone down and possibly he might even have lost a step or had a few injuries (God I hope not). Then, we will get to keep him forever because no one else will want him. Good thing that there is no salary arbitration in the NFL.

just kidding...


RANDY! READ MY LIPS! PAY THE MAN!

Mac...all your conclusions were from OLD MATERIAL - did you see Mike n Mike? 1st n 10 - I tried to describe it to you...you seemed to deny that it ever happened that way cause you got all this old news which seems to have made up your mind.

He mellowed his stance from each interview...We have stated that we are continuing our negotiations...so Cribbs was lied to by his agents...once again.

He actually stated yesterday after maybe the 3rd time he was asked about sitting it out...He said, that its not going to come to that, he wants to be a Brown and he wants this worked out.

He stated that he'll leave negotiations up to his agents but as for the sitting out possibility that will be his decision alone!

He ain't sitting....we'll make another offer, not too much better than what we have. But enough for Cribbs to feel better about his decision to agree.

JMHO - now we got Heckert too and things are settling in fast.

We still have to work on Contracts for Roth, DQ, Vickers, Harrison and Pool - all more URGENT than Cribbs.

He does punt returns as well.

Good Job Florida ! Hey, somebody's listening,...(just kidding guys.)

If Cribbs isn't returning KO's, then the Cleveland Browns are the team scoring all of the points and whose defense isn't allowing any,....

Punts,...? Again, that means the D has done it's job. It would be GREAT if that was all Cribbs had to do. !!!!!!!!

Just a question, was there a press release somewhere today where it appeared his agents were softening thier approach.. I haven't found it, but Drennan mentioned it and I was wondering.. anyone know anything bout that.....

http://www.clevelandreboot.com/2010/01/neverending-story-josh-cribbs-edition.html

The Neverending Story - Josh Cribbs Edition

It must be the offseason - at least in Berea - since Josh Cribbs and the Browns are engaged in what has become their annual contract standoff. And while the issues are largely the same as last year, the names have changed...at least on the Browns' end.

Gone is Eric Mangini as the czar-ish one-man command center of the Browns, presumably with continental owner Randy Lerner, who could truly be blamed as the figure that started all of this drama over a year ago. And seriously, has anyone seen Lerner in the past month? Not that I'm overly concerned about him, but since Holmgren's arrival in town, Lerner has all but vanished.

Anyway, speaking of vanishing - unfortunately, this story will not do anything of the sort. Much like at this time last season, the value that Cribbs brings to the Browns is still difficult to put a dollar amount on. Or, at least it appears to be an almost herculean effort to put a "new" dollar amount on Cribbs' unique set of skills.

So, here's the question - has anything really changed since this time last year?

Or, how about last May?

The Value of Cribbs

There is no question that Cribbs is underpaid. However, there is also no question that Cribbs signed his last contract, which was generously structured to accomodate the potential the Browns saw in an undrafted free agent. However, the tenuous nature of an NFL player demands that money be made now. In this sense, Cribbs wants to get paid. For a special teams star with no other defined football role, the time to ask for a raise is now.

Of course, there is one small problem. Literally…

…Besides being the(Czar of Berea, Eric Mangini is as much a disciple of Bill Belichick as any coach/head of player personnel in the league. Knowing this, it is not a stretch to suggest that Mangini will not cave into Cribbs' demands for a new deal, regardless of what was promised to him last year, or even a few months ago. Add to this the vague nature of Cribbs' role on either offense or defense and it is likely that Mangini will not make satisfying Cribbs a top priority. On paper, the Browns front office has to consider a new contract for Cribbs as essentially a new contract for a special teams player.

As for Mangini's history of refusing to cave into veteran players' contract demands, Cribbs' situation may be a little different. Trying to figure out Cribbs' worth is difficult, if not completely vague. Paying him what he's worth may prove to be more challenging. Does Cribbs deserve Devin Hester money?

Now I know what's it like to be a print reporter. Jesus, that was easy. Just substitute Mangini's name for Holmgren and you have your answer.

Although most of the wishes coming from Browns Nation would suggest otherwise, Holmgren is unlikely to begin his tenure as team president by caving into Cribbs' contract demands. Much like Mangini before him, Holmgren realizes that establishing a culture that dictates individual players assume a lower role of priority among a team is paramount.

And not to compare Cribbs to your average NFL malcontent - which he certainly is not - but the precedent set by Mangini last year dealing with Braylon and K2 and based on Holmgren's past with the likes of Joey Galloway and players not named Brett Favre leads me to believe that Cribbs is once again out of luck....at least for the time being. More on that later.

But for the sake of argument, let's take a look at whether history is indeed repeating itself. Here's more evidence from this past May...

What Cribbs Brings:

Obviously, the biggest intangible Cribbs brings to the Browns is his unique and highly effective role as a kick returner. Cribbs is a rare talent here, as he blends good straight-line speed and shifty moves with an awe-inspiring ability and passion for simply running over defenders. Without reaching to hyperbolic heights, Cribbs is certainly the best power-running kick returner in the league, and is possibly one of the best ever, in terms of physicality.

The often unnoticed skill that Cribbs brings to the team is his excellent kick coverage skills. For a former college quarterback, Cribbs is a very sound tackler, among the best on the team. The physical nature of his runbacks can also be found in his kick coverage, as Cribbs is an ideal gunner who consistently forces containment or makes tackles. This blend of size and speed again makes him very unique as a special teams defender. Cribbs' absence would be hard to replace, even on a unit that often features incredibly replaceable parts.

Everything else in Cribbs' game consists of the great unknown. Cribbs is not a great punt returner, as he doesn't seem to excel when given a smaller space to work with. Punt returning demands an almost slippery type of skill set, which Cribbs does not possess. Cribbs' best return asset is essentially his ability to get a head of steam going on a runback and then blast into his blocking wedge. On most punts, Cribbs is unable to do this, based on the nature of the play.

As for an offensive role, it remains to be seen what Cribbs can really do. Part of this can be blamed on the often scattered Romeo Crennel/Rob Chudzinski based offenses, which stressed more downfield routes. For Cribbs, running routes from a receiver position proved to be a problem. Basically, it appears that Cribbs does not read coverages well and is not built physically or mentally to run smooth pass routes. Cribbs' body is pretty much undefined based on a particular position. His build slightly resembles a tall corner, yet he runs like a power back.

And of course, at this time most of us still thought that Cribbs could play safety. Little did we know about Mike Furrey.

Anyway, perhaps the only real change here is the addition of Cribbs' 2009 production out of the Wildcat. Give some credit to Mangini and the much beleagured Brian Daboll for featuring Cribbs throughout the season. And while Cribbs essentially carried the offense in the team's monumental win over the Steelers, the question remains whether our future Hall of Famer's potential new contract should reflect these skills.

Because after all, outside the realm of special teams, Cribbs is still the great unknown.

Which brings us back to this...

Why the Browns Should Pay Cribbs:

Another key reason Eric Mangini should advocate a new deal for Cribbs is the immense popularity he commands in Cleveland. Not only is Cribbs a local boy, coming from Kent State, but he is the kind of self-made, selfless player that only arrives so often. Cribbs' physical play, combined with his electrifying abilities makes him vital to the team moving forward. Despite the team's brutal finish to the 2008 season, the value of Cribbs could be found in his hustling, spirited play during the hopeless month of December.

For a team desperately searching for an identity, Josh Cribbs is someone you want on your roster.

And here's the part where I make some sacrilegious statements.

There's no question that the 2009 Browns were Cribbs' team - at least based on the voices coming from the locker room and among Browns Nation. Obviously, this past season's team was the sole property of Mangini, but in terms of spirit or even as a sense of soul, Cribbs was it.

However, in 2010 - and really just in the past two weeks - the Browns' identity has shifted towards Holmgren. And before you question this, just think about it...when the Browns are now mentioned, whose name immediately follows? Or, perhaps more directly - who is now associated with the ultimate fate of the franchise?

In other words, there's only so much Cribbs can actually do.

And on a more earthly plane, there's always this to remember...

Why They Shouldn't (Pay for Cribbs):

Because of all the attributes that makes Cribbs such a dynamic player, the Browns should think long and hard before extending or signing Cribbs to a long-term deal. Even though Cribbs is relatively young, he has been playing at a high level since 2005, which is like 30 years in real time. Cribbs has been dealing punishing blows on kick coverage, but he has also received his share on returns. The question is simple: how much longer will Cribbs consistently perform?

Again, anything related to Cribbs has to eventually come down to basic numbers - those of the dollar kind. Or, in other words - how much of an investment should the Browns actually make in Cribbs? If we're referring to only the next 2-3 years, then a new contract for Cribbs is indeed worth the financial risk. However, much like Devin Hester and Dante Hall before him, kick returners tend to depreciate much faster than your average player.

But, since time has indeed passed, let's examine the views of all current parties involved...starting with Cribbs, who is currently making some media rounds, promoting...well, himself...

Cribbs on ESPN

Darnell Dinkins (Bounce City)
Hey is it true that you're so fast when you turn out the lights to go to bed at night you're in bed before it gets dark??

This part's irrelevant towards the larger conversation...but still, it's Darnell Dinkins - one of my favorite former Browns special teamers. And the guy who got locked in the Dairy Queen freezer on Josh's Cribs. Epic.

Tony (Akron, OH)
If the Browns refuse to offer you a a new contract and also refuse to trade you, wouldn't you be forfieting your salary by sitting out? Is that something you are seriously considering?

Josh Cribbs
(1:28 PM)
I don't believe it will ever come to that. For the Browns, it's just business and that wouldn't be smart on their behalf.

Sean (Columbus)
I am behind you but your timing is terrible. Why aren't you waiting until new President Mike Holmgren gets settled in and the rest of the front office settled?

Josh Cribbs
(1:30 PM)
They offered me a contract, take it or leave it. After Holmgren had already gotten in. So, they told me to take it or leave it. They gave me the offer first. I respectfully declined their offer.

Here's the thing about Cribbs - he's too honest and too decent of a human being for his own good. Understandably, he's upset that he has far outperformed his contract. I doubt that anyone would dispute this. However, Cribbs needs to be careful in making his argument public. Although he rightfully deserves more, taking on his new boss in such a public forum can't be the best business strategy to employ.

Also, speaking of business - which Cribbs does - he has to also realize that he truly lacks any real leverage in the situation. Basically, the Browns will ultimately win any real standoff with Cribbs. Either the Browns pay him, or they don't. Ever hear of this league called the NFL?

As for Cribbs' comments here, another thing to consider is the idea that business and smarts don’t always go together – much like having multiple outspoken agents who are not on the same page.

Speaking of which...maybe this is Cribbs' biggest problem....

Rickert Expresses Optimism at Heckert's Arrival

Now that Tom Heckert has become the G.M. of the Cleveland Browns, agent J.R. Rickert is optimistic that the team finally will "pay the man" named Josh Cribbs.

"Now that Mike Holmgren and Tom Heckert are running things," Rickert said via Twitter today, "this will get worked out!"…

…And it appears that the folks who control the flow of the dollars don't share the opinion of Cribbs that Hall of Famer Jim Brown, a member of the franchise's senior management team, expressed last month: "He is a spiritual force. What he does is so pure, it's running the ball, then going down to make a tackle. It's playing the game with the right attitude, giving himself all the way."

The more I hear from and about Rickert, the more I realize that Cribbs needs to find himself some new representation. If you take Rickert's words - or tweets - at face value, he's basically suggesting that Tom Heckert will give his client what he so desperately wants.

This would suggest a few things...

1. Heckert has ultimate authority in Cleveland - which he clearly does not.
2. Heckert will undermine his new boss to take care of a popular player.
3. Holmgren will be reduced to a mere pedestrian in this situation.

Not exactly a sound strategy for Cribbs here. Or Heckert. If Rickert's plan is to focus solely on Heckert to get his client a new deal, then my suspicions that he is nothing more than an amateur will be proven correct. Considering that Holmgren holds the key to Cribbs's ultimate fortunes, it is probably a good idea to not undermine the new franchise czar.

And of course, the part about Jim Brown affirms something completely different...that is - Cribbs is so Yoda.

And finally, let's hear from a more reasoned voice - or at least the one that counts in this situation...

Schudel on Holmgren

If the door was ever really locked and bolted on the Browns side in the contract dispute with Josh Cribbs, Browns president Mike Holmgren opened it Monday night.

The agents for Cribbs last week lashed out at the Browns, saying the $1.4 million a year offer to Cribbs was "insulting." J.R. Rickert, one of Cribbs’ agents, said he went public with their frustrations because the Browns told him they would not budge from their offer, which runs through 2015. Rickert said the Browns told him, "Take it or leave it."

Not so, Holmgren said in a conference call.

"That take it or leave it stuff, I think that went out a long time ago," Holmgren said. "I’m not sure you ever say that. The one thing that I think you have to try and avoid is negotiating against yourself. Any sort of negotiation is, in my opinion, a two-way street. My hope is that we can get this to a win-win situation. Yes, I think there’s a chance. There’s light at the end of the tunnel, hopefully.

"We’re looking at ways now maybe to change what’s going on with Josh and the offer and we’ll see. We’re getting new people in here and trying to get people in place. I’m new. I’m still hopeful that (to) everyone’s satisfaction we can work this out."

Holmgren reiterated how unusual it is to redo a contract with three years left on it. In 2006 Cribbs signed a six-year extension through 2012 for $6.77 million.

The tone that Holmgren strikes is indeed positive and could even be construed as cooperative. And sounding like the even-tempered realist that this franchise has desperately needed for some time, Holmgren makes an important point by referencing "time." With all the change currently unfolding in Berea, it's clear that Cribbs' contract is not the main priority....at least not in mid-January.

Perhaps this bit of common sense could come in handy for Cribbs' agents - and Cribbs himself, who are clearly rushing things. At least give Holmgren some time to take his shoes off before making demands. Because clearly the decision comes down to Holmgren.

And in terms of timing, it's also worth noting that we have no idea how this franchise under Holmgren will approach free agency during this and next year. With the potential for an uncapped 2010 and a football-free 2011, fiscal conservatism could likely rule in Berea and among several other football cities throughout the country.

Which brings us full circle...again...meaning that it's all about the money.

The Pick
Much like the decision to retain Mangini, let's hope Holmgren is examining all possible options regarding Cribbs. Because this issue is so much more complex than simply "pay the man" - albeit the most explosive and beloved "man" that Cleveland has had since Bernie Kosar - I feel that everyone should just calm down for the moment.

Let's give Holmgren some time to figure out the overall direction of this franchise, before we analyze to death the future of one individual player.

And of course, having said that - the more things change...

I think this all boils down to one thing...

That MH was not (in a meaningful way) involved in the negotiations between the team and Cribbs. The timelines just don't add up, even IF Holmgren came in on Day one and started talking with the agents (which I highly doubt).

Then there's the fact that he just hired a new GM (a week AFTER Cribbs rejected the take it or leave it offer).

The way I see it, everything points to Cribbs' agent being an idiot.

"EO...I believe you are trying to claim these are "old material" even though they came on or after Jan 7."

A lot was coming out on this story...so that things said a week to 4 days ago actually did become "OLD" in other words if said then in this short span Cribbs has changed his tune. Cause my reaction as well as many was - OK, he's Done? What can we do...we get a lot in return in a trade or he exiles himself to oblivion cause it would have to be a 3 year sit out.

But now after hearing just 3, 5, 7 days later its a totally other result that seems ahead.

What I was stating that a lot of what you were stating as your opinion was being based on the OLD Material...and I know I and others would agree with you....but we have the new INFO which makes that opinion just Obsolete. Ergo what I wrote in reply to you.

"You may be the type that wants to forgive Cribbs and pretend he never meant to say what I posted, but sorry, you nor Cribbs can change it now."

Type??? yes, you caught me with my pants down...I am a Human Being You mean Understanding Type, Forgiving type, Christian Type...then so be it - you got me LABELED

So what you are implying that EVERY kid who has ever Stated or even thought for that matter... "I HATE YOU" towards their parent/s - thats it! Done Over! Ungforgivable! Banned for life - You are no longer a Son/Daughter of mine...GOOD BYE!

You mean I'm not that type? Thank God!!

If he maintained that frame of thought...sure he'd have to go. If he changed it...I consider him a PRODOCAL SON Coming Home Type...since we are labeling things.

So be it.

JMHType

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Type??? yes, you caught me with my pants down...I am a Human Being You mean Understanding Type, Forgiving type, Christian Type...then so be it - you got me LABELED

So what you are implying that EVERY kid who has ever Stated or even thought for that matter... "I HATE YOU" towards their parent/s - thats it! Done Over! Ungforgivable! Banned for life - You are no longer a Son/Daughter of mine...GOOD BYE!

You mean I'm not that type? Thank God!!

If he maintained that frame of thought...sure he'd have to go. If he changed it...I consider him a PRODOCAL SON Coming Home Type...since we are labeling things.

So be it.

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EO...what the hell are you talking about?

When you sprout angel wings...let me know.

It might be best to say, we disagree and leave it at that.

I've been avoiding the whole Cribbs situation like the plague. Sick of it.

HOWEVER, his agent is on w/ the 2 local guys here in C-Bus on 91.1 The Fan.

I used to think I didn't like the agent because of all this. After listening to him talk for about 2 minutes, I KNOW I don't like the guy.

That is all . . .

Someone else just now texted me that they were listening to The Fan and they thought his agent sounded like a real putz.

The Common Man said that he likes Cribbs but NOT THAT GUY, the second they wrapped it up and hung up the phone.

Way too defensive, simple minded, and rude all came to mind.

Dang, I wanted to hear that guy,....that bad, eh ? Just like most of the reports have him labeled ?

The exact words my friend used was that he sounded "shady"

Exact same word one of the guys on the radio used.

Josh! My man! Switch agents!!!!!

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yep, Cribbs is changing his tenure

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Damanshot, St.Dawg, and others, this agent wants to stir it up trying to create levers and animosity where none exists (or should) on either party's part. I think he needs a new sensible agent; would the fans take up a collection for his new rep? I think everybody might kick in at least some. Just sayin'.

What's interesting is that my understanding is that the same guys that represent Cribbs also represent Joe Thomas... I have not been able to confirm that..

Not saying that means much,, Thomas being a high pick, he was going to get the money up front without having to prove his value..

Josh had to backdoor this thing. He's earned an increase in the contract.. I don't think anyone actually questions that..

But I just don't like this stuff being aired in the public..It's like Cribbs and his agents are panic stricken and don't know what else to do.

Listening (and seeing his facial expressions) to Holmgren in the presser this week, it's clear that he didn't want it to come to this but it's clear that he knew it would happen..

He also made it clear,, No Negotiations in the Press.. He sent a message that he loves Cribbs and wants it to work out, but that it will be done professionally and not out in public as his agents have done..

To me, Holmgren just spanked the agents and Cribbs....

Bottom line is, a deal will get done, or, Cribbs won't be playing in Cleveland anymore.

We'll either get to keep him, or garner some trade value therefor.

Holmgren's turn, and he holds the cards. It's win-win.

Not to mention it adds nothing to a football thread.

j/c

an update from cribbs camp

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CLEVELAND -- The agent for Browns receiver Josh Cribbs said today that he's had "very positive'' dialogue with the Browns in the past week about Cribbs' contract and that Cribbs and his team are optimistic now about a good outcome.

"We've talked to (Browns president) Mike Holmgren and (general manager) Tom Heckert and we have an understanding that we're going to work together on this,'' agent J.R. Rickert told The Plain Dealer. "We have a much clearer indication that something can be worked out and that it's not just lip service.''

Rickert said Holmgren and Heckert "made it clear to us that they had not made a take-it-or-leave-it proposition or a final offer. The tone and tenor were very positive and we feel this is something we're going to sit down and work on. Josh feels very good about it.''

On Jan. 6, Cribbs and his agents said they were insulted by the Browns lowball $1.4 million offer, which they said was presented to them by Dawn Aponte, vice president of football administration. Aponte is still employed by the Browns, but The Plain Dealer reported that she might leave to join the Dolphins.

The next day, Cribbs went to Berea and cleaned out his locker, saying he felt "it's over for me in Cleveland.'' Cribbs, who will play in his second Pro Bowl on Jan. 31 and made the AP All-Pro team as the starting returner, had vowed he wouldn't play under his current contract, which runs through 2012. His agents said he would ask for a trade by March 4, the start of the new league year, if they hadn't budged from their offer.

Now, all of that has changed. Holmgren stepped in and immediately did some damage control, stressing during a press conference last week that the $1.4 million was not a final offer.

"No numbers have been exchanged, but we definitely have a much clearer sense from the team where they see Josh -- and an understanding that they're willing to negotiate,'' Rickert said.

He said the ball is in the Browns' court in terms of when and how negotiations will take place and they've been busy assembling their personnel staff this week. Cribbs is also busy, organizing help for Haitian earthquake victims and donating a large sum of money. He's also preparing for the Pro Bowl next week.

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http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/01/josh_cribbs_and_agents_encoura.html

idiots.

thanks for the read Dong..

LOL Why am I not surprised.. did anyone actually think they wouldn't make a better effort retain him?