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I want nothing to do with Hasslebeck. He is Trent Dilfer part 2. No thanks.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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That doesn't mean we don't address QB in the way of a prospect to groom. Vick is just the bridge for a year or two.
How long do you expect Tebow to need to develop into an NFL QB? 
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Cheap price, immediate upgrade over what we have.
I think Vick can be a pretty good qb who also brings a wildcat element on every play.
Vick certainly didn't get a lot of PT this year,no neeed to go into why..but it is interesting...for all the reasons you stated...but my concern would be how he can manage sustained drives...and on a side note,how the fans handle him coming here.
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I don't think he would kill more drives then he would keep alive. The guy isn't a bad passer and we know he can tuck and run if needed.
As for playtime...McNabb had a good year...he really wasn't needed when you get right down to it.
As to the fans...he's been back a year, so the initial fallout is over. You are still going to have the PETA folks unhappy, but they are generally unhappy people anyway.
I don't think it would create a PR nightmare if that is what you think.
He comes in and makes a few throws and runs for a TD and jumps in to the pound, those dogs will be wagging their tails.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I want nothing to do with Hasslebeck. He is Trent Dilfer part 2. No thanks.
I'd tend agree but we need somebody and the alternative is what? Three yards and a cloud of dust. 
What we need is a cheap, stop gap, upgrade with some potential. 
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That doesn't mean we don't address QB in the way of a prospect to groom. Vick is just the bridge for a year or two.
How long do you expect Tebow to need to develop into an NFL QB?
If they play him the right way....maybe a few weeks. 
If they are expecting Peyton Manning standing in the pocket, maybe a year to never.
If a backs skill set is speed and slashing, you aren't going to try to turn him in to a power runner are you??
The day to quit trying to form all NFL qbs in to the same product is near.....maybe even here.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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1st String
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I don't think it would create a PR nightmare if that is what you think.
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From a PR standpoint it is the best thing Mike Vick can do. Being embraced by the Dawg pound would have a lot of symbolism.
I never thought he was the best QB in the league, but when he is playing full time it does make it hard for the opposing defense to game plan.
He will be cut by Philly so he should come moderately cheap so I would agree with Ballpeen that he is worth the risk/ reward.
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"And you know this from your vast experience as President?"
Common Sense...knowledge of business and organizations.
Personally - I have been the Owner/President, since 1989. But just to note I in no way shape or form have this vast corporation delegating power.
And the NFL is a very unique industry. So much of the profits and expenses are already dictated. The market is there already to new Markets isn't the focus. Pretty much his responsibilities as PRESIDENT is funneled to one specific area.
IMPROVE THE PRODUCT.
He has broken down his product into three distinct areas.
He has just solidified the Leaders of these 3 areas.
All three possess a lot of experience in their areas - they weren't brought here in hopes that they would "EVOLVE" into their positions. They have already evolved and are ready to delegate and control their areas.
In what I stated was in no way to insinuate that MH will just take days off - play Xbox, Golf, in lieu of work.
Also I am not insinuating that he will try to Micro Manage the 3 areas since he has time on his hands.
What I am saying is that he will oversee the decisions and progress of each area and make sure that they stay on course to the ONE GOAL at hand.
What I am saying is that he will have more time on his hand to pursue certain hands on areas that he has a PASSION FOR...and if you don't think Offense isn't his passion or even more specifically QB play his passion than you haven't studied the man and his history. Even his few pressers that we have viewed he pretty much has shown us he still has those passions.
So I just might be Guessing with more education than you can possibly can summarize. There is not much I do state that is out there uneducated and completely off the fly. When I do I usually say "brain fart" or "thinking out loud" and btw anytime I post something and follow it with a ??? thats me pretty much saying - I think so and if any reader knows the FACTS I'd love to know cause I'm not 100% sure.
I try very hard to be credible...not even as a premeditated precaution. Just thats the way I am and respect the board and its members to be credible as much as possible.
JMHO educated Opinion btw 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I think Vick can be a pretty good qb who also brings a wildcat element on every play.
Like a lot of folks, I'm no big fan of Vicks actions.. but he did pay his debt to society I guess so I should, as a human, forgive him for it and move on.. I'll try.. it's not easy.. I really love dogs...
But this comment of yours.. Vick in the wildcat got me thinking.. How about Vick as QB, Cribbs behind him lined up in the backfield.. everyone knows it's the wildcat,, but to whom is the ball going? Damn,, I'm no X's and O's guy, but does that sound interesting or what?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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jk... Let me throw this name out there... he's someone I thought was going to be good in the league when I first saw him. Then he just never seemed to get over the hump. J.P. Losman
Drafted 2004 from a rich QB class (Manning,Rivers, Roethlisberger) as the 4th selected QB (Bills 22nd pick). In College - he signed with UCLA and then transferred after he was not given the starting job. He went to Tulane and finished his career having completed 570-of-987 passes (57.7 percent) for 6,754 yards, 60 touchdowns, and 27 interceptions. He also ran for 241 yards, with 10 scores on 237 carries.
For the Bills - in 2004, his first year he broke his leg in training camp. Next year, played musical chairs with Holcomb and had a few good/bad games. In 2006 he beat out Holcomb in training camp for the starting gig, and went on to have a good year. He threw, 19 touchdowns and 14 interceptions, 62.5 completion percentage, and 84.9 passer rating. In 2007, he sprained his knee and Trent Edwards came in relief and did well. After a couple weeks he was ready to come back in but Jauron went with Edward... some say because the owner didn't want Losman to achieve statistical milestones. 2008, Losman sat behind Edwards most of the season.
In 2009, he jumped to the UFL and led the Las Vegas Locomotives to the championship. Some excerpts about that experience...
Former New York Giants head coach Jim Fassel worked with Losman this fall during what turned out to be a UFL championship season for the Las Vegas Locomotives. Fassel constantly worked with Losman in practices and during games trying to improve on his techniques and throwing style. A strong-armed quarterback, Losman took to the coaching and played some of the best football of his young career.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4746457
In 9 games, he threw 9 touchdowns and 2 interceptions; with a 62% completion percentage.
Got most of my info above from wiki and the ufl website.. and made some cliff notes. Maybe he's worth taking a look at? The good feeling now with these new hires is... I'm sure we will if he is.
"I'm a mog. Half man, half dog. I'm my own best friend."
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I believe he was on the Raiders last season (at the very end)???
Is he still their property?
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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But this comment of yours.. Vick in the wildcat got me thinking.. How about Vick as QB, Cribbs behind him lined up in the backfield.. everyone knows it's the wildcat,, but to whom is the ball going? Damn,, I'm no X's and O's guy, but does that sound interesting or what?
it's what i was hoping Philly would do this past season and never did....basically, the old wing-T with a modern twist
Philly version: put Vick at QB, McCoy as single-back, Maclin/DeSean as left H-Back and Westbrook as right H-Back.
You could run the zone-read to either side of the field, you could run a counter play off the zone read with the play-side HBack going the opposite way and you could run sweeps, draws, screens and have an entire offensive package.
the reason it would have worked in Philly was that even if Vick went down with injury, it wouldn't affect their base-offense with McNabb/Kolb, so very little disturbance there.
#gmstrong
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Toad:
I totally agree with you on McNabb. Hard to believe that DA is due a $2.5 million dollar bonus in March and a salary of $7.5 million which is way more than Hasselbeck or McNabb make.
The Kolb factor: Heckert was behind the deal that got a second rounder for AJ Feely.
Just because a guy does ok as a relief starter on a good team does not necessarily mean he is going to be a good every day starter. Kolb is a unknown.
Heckert of course would know better than anyone of his potential. But with that being stated he still doesn't know because Kolb has no real body of work.
Sanchez looks good to me but he has more starts than Quinn. Kind of hard to pass final judgement until you are able to see a complete sample of work.
This is still a team game. QB's are a key factor in success but you also have to have a team around them.
Like you said I see no reason why Philly would part with McNabb or Kolb. McNabb is good enough to win a Super Bowl with provided he has the other tools. He has a year left on a contract. Play him. See what happens. Extend his contract at the end of next year and then trade him if you feel Kolb's time has come.
I don't believe Hasselbeck is going anywhere either. Yes, Seattle could draft a QB but they would then use Hasselbeck as the transition guy til the pick is ready.
DA will be gone before his March bonus is due is my guess.
I really don't see a FA that does anything for me. However, I wouldn't mind Pennington as a veteran backup versus a Quinn/Ratcliff solution. My guess is the new Browns will look to the draft for a QB but not in the first round.
From now till draft day I am going to look around and look at QB's. The new Browns will no doubt be looking for a QB solution as well.
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"This is where I think everyone's wrong...
Holmgren won't have the time to do this...He's the P...He's not gonna spend his time on the field and mentor anyone...This is what he has left to the COACHES."
If a president does his job right - you'd be surprised at the time he will have on his hands.
Lets see he just brought in his Bean counter
He just brought in his GM
He just got his HC with confidence.
Just exactly what is his job description when on all counts these three hires are running their ends smoothly?
Even by MH account on his individual presser 1/12...he states now that those 3 are in place he can take a breather. He now can "ROLL UP HIS SLEEVES" and get to work...watching film, etc...football stuff.
He also noted how he knows QBs that he was one and looks at the game with that mentality. He also noted how QB in his eyes is the most important position in all sports (All of Sports was worded by the Journalist).
He's not going to get hands on too much...but come Training camp - I doubt if he has a whistle on....and he might be doing some smoozing with Randy a lot.
But he will spend some time on that field and it would be with our QBs and with Daboll...mentoring both!
JMHO We'll find out in 6 months, of course I'm guessing...but when that warm whether hits and everything is running smoothly he's going to have some time on his hand and football fever will hit. Mangini in his individual presser mentioned how great its going to be to have MH around mentoring the Offense. Guessing yes but educated guessing???
Yes, reading this throughout the week, watching that interview, it does give you this conclusion. Holmgren is being very cordial, very respectful to everyone, including Mangini. When the weather heats up, if he wants to go down and do a quarterback session, I have a feeling he's gonna do it, and nobody is going to make a negative deal about it. They better not. Heck, he might even have a whistle on.
I am not saying this is going to happen, but as EO lays out, it appears that it easily could happen.
You can't have been Joe Montana's coach, the guy who developed Steve Young as an NFL HOF'r, the guy who grabbed Brett Favre by the scruff of the neck and turned him into a 3 time MVP, took a 6th rounder like Hasselbeck and made him a Pro Bowl/Super Bowl quarterback, and have some quarterback coach complain about him working with your players. Not going to happen.
He has the freedom to do his job anyway he sees fit. There is no job description for Czar. Whose going to complain other than Florio?
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My take on Vick not being an option is based more on the direction I believe (gut feeling) Holmgren, Mangini are going to take this.
My feeling is they are building. Vick coming in now would be much different than what Philly was hoping from him. It made sense for them.
Although incredibly gifted, there is a consistancy element that is missing and I believe is very important in this issue.
I would not put money on Michael Vick becoming a Brown.
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I didn't get to see Tebow as much as some of you.. all I know about the kid is that he's got a winners heart.. it's hard to find that... As for arm strength, accuracy, hand size, mechanics, smarts and release times...., I'll leave that to you gurus... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
But this comment of yours.. Vick in the wildcat got me thinking.. How about Vick as QB, Cribbs behind him lined up in the backfield.. everyone knows it's the wildcat,, but to whom is the ball going? Damn,, I'm no X's and O's guy, but does that sound interesting or what?
it's what i was hoping Philly would do this past season and never did....basically, the old wing-T with a modern twist
Philly version: put Vick at QB, McCoy as single-back, Maclin/DeSean as left H-Back and Westbrook as right H-Back.
You could run the zone-read to either side of the field, you could run a counter play off the zone read with the play-side HBack going the opposite way and you could run sweeps, draws, screens and have an entire offensive package.
the reason it would have worked in Philly was that even if Vick went down with injury, it wouldn't affect their base-offense with McNabb/Kolb, so very little disturbance there.
I like your thinking. You aren't boxed in by drop back qbs being the only thing that will work in the NFL. Guys like Vick, Tebow, even Cribbs...that aren't like your typical qb who normally can't take a tackle and even dish out some punishment.
Maybe you lose a little in the passing game in so far as a guy who might be able to find his 2nd or 3rd option....but Vick or a Tebow can do it often enough....so while you lose something, you gain something else.....and a bif something else IMO....you now have a qb that has to be accounted for.....now, they really don't other than you try to sack the guy....D's have a man advantage every time a Manning doesn't pass the ball.
If you have a qb who is a legit threat, all of a sudden things are equal.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I didn't get to see Tebow as much as some of you.. all I know about the kid is that he's got a winners heart.. it's hard to find that... As for arm strength, accuracy, hand size, mechanics, smarts and release times...., I'll leave that to you gurus...
No guru here man, but I do think I know a football player when I see one....nothing formal, but shoot, it isn't hard to spot the players.
Tebow has a good arm by NFL standards, and has proven to be accurate...at least at the college ranks....just like all the other hotshot qbs to come down the pike out of college.
I have stood next to the guy...he isn't a small guy by any means...and I am not talking not small like just about any other NFL QB isn't small...I mean he is a big guy. He isn't going to get killed if he runs the ball. He can run over more people than people who can stonewall him.
If he gets with the right team who is will to play his type of game, the guy is going to be a Super Bowl MVP.
I know, I am a homer, and I am usually not....but being that homer has taught me you can never discount what he can do.
I have always thought Herchial Walker was the best player I had ever seen in college, with Bo Jackson just behind.
Tebow beats both those guys....maybe due to the position, but the guy is a team leader.
maybe you have heard the story...when Brandon Spikes and Tebow were being recruited, both visited Alabama the same long weekend and got to know each other. After the weekend, Spikes....a pretty good player mind you, was asked where he thought he might end up. Spikes looked the reporter or whoever asked the question in the eyes and flatly stated he was going wherever that guy goes.....pointing at Tebow.
That is quite a impression he made on a star player in only a day or two.
Right now Tebow is rated in the 50's or 60's...wait until the combine and the interviews..watch him shoot up the boards.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Tebow has a good arm by NFL standards, and has proven to be accurate...at least at the college ranks....just like all the other hotshot qbs to come down the pike out of college.
I gotta ask this,, why is this guy so far down the list of QB's coming out? Why are so many, even on this board, questioning his ability.
Well, either way, you will get no argument out of me.. Like I said, I didn't see a lot of him, but what I saw was impressive. how that translates to the NFL,,, got me!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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i only saw him in the bowl game but didn't really feel very impressed by his throws. a lot of them had a lot of air, with the receiver having no one around them. then again, he was playing UC, perhaps he never really had to make many difficult throws.
good thing is he's playing in the senior bowl so some coaches'll could have him make some throws to address any questions. all i know is, aside from the throwing, i think he has all the other stuff for sure.
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I've had the pleasure of watching parts of several games he's played in.. All I can tell you is the kid is a winner.. like I said, beyond that, I'll let the gurus sort it out.
Still, it baffles me why some mocks having going as late as the 4th round.. He's better than that....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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If you don't mind me chiming in...
I'm hardly a QB expert, but here's some of my thoughts.
Pros
Heart/Leadership
Strength (overall and arm strength)
Speed/Size
Deep ball accuracy
Great college numbers
Cons
Slow Release
Footwork
Not sure what the technical term is, but the guy throws a lot of ducks (aka, he doesn't throw a pretty ball)
Questions (and these are true for most college QBs)
Is he a scheme QB?
Can he be an under the center QB?
Can he read defenses?
Again, I'm hardly an expert - that's just some of the things I've seen in the dozen or so games the last few years. I think the reason that people love him is that (a) he performed consistently at the highest level for a great program against top competeition (b) he has all of the intangibles, and (c) he's a winner.
I think that the reason he is disliked is because of pundits talking a lot about the slow release and footwork. That being said, he's a risk/reward type guy. You can't teach the intangibles but can teach mechanics.
Prior to MH being named president, I'm not sure I'd have touched Tebow in the first 3 rounds because of the risk. Knowing MH's history with QBs, I'd not be too upset if we drafted him in the 2nd (if he dropped that far), don't think I'd want to take him at 7. Having seen and read about this kid as a leader and the heart he has, I completely expect an excellent senior bowl and a phenomenal combine from him. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes top 10 overall if that happens.
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My attitude is this...F the release, footwork, and all the other stuff.
Go with the 21st century offense and quit being stuck in the 20th century...
Be the first to play pro O the way it is going to be played by all in 10-15 years.
The days of the drop back QB are done....you won't be able to find those guys in 10 years. Fewer and fewer high schools and colleges are running that old, outdated type of O anymore.
Who still carries a cell phone the size of a brick anymore???
Things change.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I have officially stopped listening to Ballpeen on all things Tim Tebow.
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I have officially stopped listening to Ballpeen on all things Tim Tebow.
LOL....that's cool. I don't expect most to get it.....and it goes beyond Tim.
I know most people can't think outside the box.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
Quote:
I have officially stopped listening to Ballpeen on all things Tim Tebow.
LOL....that's cool. I don't expect most to get it.....and it goes beyond Tim.
I know most people can't think outside the box.
Since when has homerism been defined as "outside the box"?
#GMSTRONG
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It's like I said....it goes beyond Tebow, so it just isn't homerism.
I am 100% convinced the drop back qb will soon be extinct.
So do you want to be the first on the train or do you want to keep monkeying around with the DA's and BQ's of the world??
Twenty years from now, QB like that will be scoffed.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I seem to recall Bud Wilkinson saying the same thing about the wishbone.
The NFL is a passing league, the rules promote it, the owners want it and the teams will always draft for it. Tebow is an Edsel in a league of Ferrari's.
#GMSTRONG
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I see a pickup truck with a 426 Hemi ... I see a game-changer. I'm tired of watching the opponents defense dictate our offense. I want to see our opponents try to deal with the x-factor. I don't know much about releases or footwork or spotting the ability to read defenses, but I know an athlete and a winner when I see one. He can be coached to do the things he needs to do better. He can become a dropback passer, learn the 3-step, 7-step, 23-step dropback. He can learn to smooth out his release, if its a problem (which I don't necessarily believe it is). Tebow is a damn football player and I wouldn't mind if we took him at 7.
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For the sake of my own sanity, I'm gonna pretend I didn't read that last sentence.
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but I know an athlete and a winner when I see one. He can be coached to do the things he needs to do better. He can become a dropback passer, learn the 3-step, 7-step, 23-step dropback. He can learn to smooth out his release, if its a problem (which I don't necessarily believe it is).
Pretty much exactly what I said above. As per the release - if not improved, it may be a problem in the NFL with the talent/speed at DB. Really, he just winds up big - the backwards motion seems almost over exaggerated. It'll be interesting to hear what the experts have to say as we get closer to the draft. I suspect it is a very fixable thing, along with his footwork. The guy does have some amazing intangibles that can't be taught, that's what intrigues me.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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I just don't know how you're going to teach a 20 something kid to throw from his ear instead of his hip? That motion is slow and laborious and it's going to set up an opportunity for real NFL linemen to tag that arm and cause fumbles.
Like I said in another thread, he'd make someone a really great out fielder, he should consider baseball.
#GMSTRONG
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All Pro
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All Pro
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The days of the drop back QB are done....you won't be able to find those guys in 10 years. Fewer and fewer high schools and colleges are running that old, outdated type of O anymore.
Maybe I'm way off base, but I think I've heard this before. Starting with Mike Vick. Maybe even earlier. Yet here we are years later, and the most successful QBs in the league are able to drop back and throw in obvious throwing situations. IMO, the reasons for this are twofold: 1. In the NFL, where there is much less of a talent gap, teams have to come from behind more often and 2. Dropping back and throwing the ball remains the fastest way to move the ball down the field. That is why there will always be a place for these types of QBs.
Take Miami's Wildcat for example. It works pretty well. Until they get behind. That is why they have been trying to develop Chad Henne, more of a drop back QB.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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My attitude is this...F the release, footwork, and all the other stuff.
Go with the 21st century offense and quit being stuck in the 20th century...
Damanshot...DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS BS...
This thinking will NEVER work in the NFL...
Peen...U loopy... 
Quote:
Who still carries a cell phone the size of a brick anymore???
Noone...But apparently the last person u saw with one hit u over the head with it before he tossed it...
Go Browns!!!
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Legend
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Legend
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Honestly, I have no idea if Peen is right about the future of the Drop Back QB.. no idea at all.. Putting that aside, I keep seeing Tebow and Cribbs in the backfield and even a non guru can see trouble for defenses. Unlike some of you guys who are really good at understanding the Xs and Os.. I'm more of an observer,,, What I observed from this year vs prior years is that Tebow seemed to have added a new dimension to his game.. that of a passer.. under center, drop back passer.. I only noticed it a couple of times but then I didn't watch every game either. But each time I saw him do that, He succeeded at it. not sure what that says overall, but it tells me that he could probably be any kinda QB he wants to be. I get the impression that if a QB maker type coach got hold of him, he could be the next "big thing"....... JMO...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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Legend
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I don't like his slow release. And many of the throws I've seen him make (not numerous, to be honest... but enough) will get picked in the NFL.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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The single biggest thing that NFL guys will look at...And look at HARD...
Is Tinkerbell's DELIVERY...
He's long and winds up...That is extremely hard to change and is almost impossible to change...
THAT will be his downfall...
The Speed of the NFL game will dictate this...If up front defenders don't get to him the Corners will...They will be able to move on the ball WAAAAY before he even releases it...
I bet anything IF Tebow ever starts a 16 game season he will throw AT LEAST 25 picks...
If Vick had Tebow's delivery...He'd throw a ton of picks too...These guys will NEVER be quality NFL QB's...Vick included...He's PROVEN he's nuttin' but a highlight film...And MOST of it comes from his LEGS...Not his ARM...Or his BRAINS...
No sense in even discussing this...Holmgren will stay as far away from Tebow as he can...GUARANTEE IT...
Go Browns!!!
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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OK,, then lets you and I not discuss it anymore,, Like I said, I'm no guru,, I'll leave that up to you guys to beat each other up about....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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