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I'm not saying that we should take McClain or that he will go in the top 10.
I'm saying it's not a good argument to state Willis wasn't worthy of a top 10 pick. Because clearly, if he had enough potential to be drafted 11th, he also could have gone 10th.
For the record, as of right now, I agree with you that we shouldn't draft McClain unless these six guys are gone in front of him: Suh, Berry, McCoy (Gerald), Okung, Haden, and Price.
But, if our new front office, along with the coaching staff, determines that middle linebacker is an area of need and Rolando McClain can be a quality player along the lines of Ray Lewis or Patrick Willis. Then we should take him. I have my doubts that he is that good of a player. But I think you can agree, that if is a 100% slam dunk then we have to take him, right?
Curious, why do you think we need Gerald McCoy ?
No way he agrees, he is too stubborn and doesn't want to draft a pro bowler on the defensive side of the ball in a position of need .. He'd rather waste money on an OL that we can draft in the 3rd round
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But, if our new front office, along with the coaching staff, determines that middle linebacker is an area of need and Rolando McClain can be a quality player along the lines of Ray Lewis or Patrick Willis. Then we should take him. I have my doubts that he is that good of a player. But I think you can agree, that if is a 100% slam dunk then we have to take him, right?
Lol, knowing a guy is great makes draft day much easier, that's right...but I'll play: IF he was the only player left that I think can be a slam dunk then YES, we should take him...but if there was another player at another position (not C or G) I had the same feeling I would take that other player...just because of position, impact and value and all that stuff
#gmstrong
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DJ, I also think certain trends shift the focus ... a decade ago no-one would have taken corner and not even safety really that high ... but due to more man coverages, the evolution of the game has forced safeties to be top caliber... we see that every month it seems like in polamolu and reed ... can you imagine if someone took a safety #1 or #2 overall? But by every account ... this year a team that NEEDS a safety combined with the TALENT found in berry should force him to go #1 or #2, which I believe makes him the highest taken safety EVER ... Same thing with LB ... just because teams havent done it recently, if a team is on the clock and NEEDS a position that happens to be in the top few that are available, especially if that player is supposed to be special, I'd take that player if it was a ILB or if it was a QB or if it was an OL or even a RB ... it just so happens that the top 10 seems to be muddled with O and D lineman in most mock drafts, so I think we could take McClain if we dont trade down 
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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You're right, Patrick Willis was not a top 10 pick. He was 11th. Big difference there.
But McClain isn't Willis...
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Because Gerald McCoy is a top three talent in this draft. And if he fell to us at seven then we would have no choice but to take him. Or trade down.
Also, if it was determined that an O-Linemen was as valuable as McClain I think our new front would probably take the O-Linemen. Holmgren/Heckert/Mangini (Manholmkert?) have almost always drafted O-Line and D-Line over anything.
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i think McCoy is gonna be a bust..
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Deep...I like your draft for the most part. I do not think Hughes will be there in the second or Berry there in 1. If Berry is there we take him.
If Berry isn't there, I would like to trade down and get Mays, His stock has slipped, but so did Maualuga last year. The guy was hurt for most of this year, and got exposed in coverage some. He had a much better year the year before. In round two, I go Jonathan Dwyer and with the pick from trading down Brandon Spikes. If I could I would then take one of the thirds and the fourth from trading down and attempt to get Lafell in the second. With the other pick in the third I would either take best T available, best cb available or Moeaki.
1.) Mays
2.)Dwyer
2b.)Spikes
2c.)Lafell
3.) Mcfadden, Young, Moeaki
4.)Damian Williams
This is my dream.. as far as the draft. Probability around 0, thus dream.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Right now Hughes is being projected as a 2nd rounder. That could change with the Senior Bowl, but as of now, that is very realistic.
Damian Williams isn't going to get out of round 2, much less 3.
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We must be looking at two totally different Projections...cause I don't see Black getting past Dallas in round 1..Oh well.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Quote:
This is my dream.. as far as the draft. Probability around 0, thus dream.
I really don't know much about those other guys you mentioned. But I do know quite a bit about two.
Taylor Mays, stay away. Highly overrated. Can't cover anyone. Someone will fall in love with his measurables and draft him. He will go somewhere in the 1st round, but hopefully not to the Browns. He was exposed on a mediocre USC defense that he was supposed to be the leader of. I guess you don't do as well when you don't have Brian Cushing, Clay Matthews, Rey Maualuga, Kaluka Maiava, Kevin Ellison, Fili Moala, Cary Harris, and Kyle Moore around.
Damian Williams on the other hand will go much higher than the 4th round. He is one of the best route runners I've seen in college in awhile and has excellent hands. If he runs the run under 4.5 he will be a 1st round pick.
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I think Mays is actually becoming very underrated. I'd say he's a top 15 pick. I think he's very good in zone coverage and can lay players out. He covers the deep half of the field and keeps players from going across the field. The only reason he isn't a top 10 pick is his lack of playmaking ability. But I do think that he will be a very good NFL player.
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I have checked a couple sites rankings and I see Williams projected as the 9th best receiver. Mays was exposed I agree, I watched him too. But I watched him the year before and he was awesome. He had a down year and some injuries. I don't think you stay away though, He has tons of ability, speed and can lay the wood. Remember how open the middle of the field was last year and TE's ate us up. I would think, he would solve that problem. They said the same thing about Maualuga last year and the guy was solid as a rook.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Good point...but I think McClain is a Top 15 pick for 3-4 teams ONLY...no way a 4-3 team takes him there to play MLB because he isn't an overwhelming athlete and there are questions about his cover skills....he'd be a heck of a 3-4 ILB and could even play some SOLB but that diminishes his value on draft day
So...looking at the draft order: KC is the only chance he'll go Top 10 imho, he has a really good chance to go at 12 to MIA....Crowder is average and Ayodele is getting worse with every game, they need an ILB badly
in no order STL, DET, TB and WAS should pick up Clausen, Suh, McCoy and Okung
up next then: KC and SEA....I think QB #2 (Bradford or Locker) + Berry will go here...maybe an OT for SEA (W.Jones is 36 and they have no LT)
KC really needs a NT, S and ILB....so they are going Cody, Berry or McCLain at 5...S being their biggest need...I can't see them passing up on Berry here
The more I think about it....it's either Berry or QB for us (Bradford or Locker)....if we're not sold on the QB(s) left, we are in a great position to trade down with Raiders, Bills, JAX right behind us needing a franchise QB and CAR at 16
#gmstrong
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Good point...but I think McClain is a Top 15 pick for 3-4 teams ONLY...no way a 4-3 team takes him there to play MLB because he isn't an overwhelming athlete and there are questions about his cover skills....he'd be a heck of a 3-4 ILB and could even play some SOLB but that diminishes his value on draft day
So...looking at the draft order: KC is the only chance he'll go Top 10 imho, he has a really good chance to go at 12 to MIA....Crowder is average and Ayodele is getting worse with every game, they need an ILB badly
in no order STL, DET, TB and WAS should pick up Clausen, Suh, McCoy and Okung
up next then: KC and SEA....I think QB #2 (Bradford or Locker) + Berry will go here...maybe an OT for SEA (W.Jones is 36 and they have no LT)
KC really needs a NT, S and ILB....so they are going Cody, Berry or McCLain at 5...S being their biggest need...I can't see them passing up on Berry here
The more I think about it....it's either Berry or QB for us (Bradford or Locker)....if we're not sold on the QB(s) left, we are in a great position to trade down with Raiders, Bills, JAX right behind us needing a franchise QB and CAR at 16
Yikes, Mr. Draft Expert, Locker announced he was staying a LOOOONG time ago .
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Quote:
I think Mays is actually becoming very underrated. I'd say he's a top 15 pick. I think he's very good in zone coverage and can lay players out. He covers the deep half of the field and keeps players from going across the field. The only reason he isn't a top 10 pick is his lack of playmaking ability. But I do think that he will be a very good NFL player.
I think he's a carbon copy of Roy Williams, the safety...I see the same type of player...I wouldn't touch him ...I'd rather pick Earl Thomas in round 2 or Reshad Jones in round 3
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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I think what they said about Maualuga was: Quote:
Has a tendency to overpursue, opening holes in the defense for quick and savvy ballcarriers to exploit. Too often relies on his explosive hitting to knock down ballcarriers, rather than wrapping up to make secure tackles. Concerns about his maturity. Repeated troubles while at USC involving fights and alcohol. Arrested for misdemeanor battery after punching a student at a Halloween party in 2005. The charge was eventually dropped.
They were wrong. But that's what they said.
Maybe I'm being a little too hard on Mays. He's not a stay away. But I definitely wouldn't be happy if we took him 7th (I think you said we should trade down.) If we could trade down to somewhere from 15-20, then I wouldn't be upset with Mays as our pick.
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All Pro
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having Quinn or DA as your starter isn't a dream team, it's a nightmare.
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Yikes, Mr. Draft Expert, Locker announced he was staying a LOOOONG time ago .
I know...I just don't give a crap about those statements as long as deadline is still there....but I got myself for you here: I missed that the deadline has passed which is odd since I just read today that some junior declared, strange
It's the right development move for Locker....I don't know if it was a wise financial move though
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Actually, it would be a dream scenario. In my dream scenario, one of the QB's we already have succeeds and we don't have to spend any more picks or money on a QB.
Just a dream though.
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I don't see that comparison at all really.
And Earl Thomas is gone long before round 2 swings around. For the record, I like him more than Mays.
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McClain is one of those special guys...tough call. Just like Suh for a 3-4 DE wouldn't be protocol but Suh is one of those special players so you got to think long and hard.
But I wouldn't count McClain out just by his ILB status...special is special.
Agree with you on Arenas in the 2nd round. and regardless unless we draft one in the first round I seriously doubt that they can start as a rookie. I do like Akwasi Owusu-Ansah as a late 3rd, 4th round investment.
But I don't see a very strong CB class this year.
Young is slotted accurately - I'd prefer Carimi from Wisconsin - I think he could match up with JoeT as our cornerstone.
The pass comments to the new kid...again a little self serving as placing yourself as a Draft Guru  Yeah lets take Conner Barwin at #17 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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It's ridiculous how much you are going after him about that. Everyone on here has been wrong before, and he may not be this time.
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I'll gladly make the bet with you that if we pass on him at 7 because there is some alleged system in place that prevents you from taking an ILB at that spot and instead pick a OT who does not turn out to be GREAT and then McLain turns into Patrick Willis or Ray Lewis, that we all feel pretty damn stupid. Hows that for a bet?
You talk about "value" at a spot.. I think an ILB that can hammer the run and also play well in short coverage is a pretty good value...
As for what moves Mangini made in the past with drafts and acquisitions.. I think that is moot. Heckert and Holmgren will be running the show and if they want to step on Mangini's toes by taking an impact player at a position Mangini used a couple picks to try to fill last year.. then they will do it if they don't think that position is filled appropriately.
yebat' Putin
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It's ridiculous how much you are going after him about that. Everyone on here has been wrong before, and he may not be this time.
Wrong?
The fun part is that he considers Barwin a bust without having seen him play his rookie season...I saw him against the Colts and he not only sacked Manning he rushed him on a lot of plays, how often does this happen to Manning?...he got better with every game...and we are talking about a guy who just played his 2nd season EVER as a defender....I said it then and I'll say it now: Barwin WAS a project pick, but 1 with a short learning curve and one that I said will still manage to contribute very quickly (check)....he finished the season with 4.5 sacks, 3.5 of them in the last 6 games...no double sacks game beating on a poor player, he was consistent doing it week after week with limited snaps because he was a backup by default this season with Mario Williams and expensive FA-DE A.Smith...and they still picked him in the 2nd
EO also conveniently forgets to mention that I would have picked Oher at 17....but yeah, I would have picked Barwin over Mack any day given our needs
But it's ok....I can't wait till Barwin will take over as a starter in HOU and he'll be "the story" (because he's deaf) of the NFL putting up elite pass rush numbers....he was in on maybe 1/3 of the opponents passing attempts and had 4.5sacks....you do the math. I will slap EO left and right with Barwin  it will be fun
Oh I forgot...pretty ballsy from you EO to repeatedly call me out on Barwin (who is far from busting) since I remember you pimping LT Dorsey back then, who couldn't even block on a FG unit (remember that OAK double FG-game at the end in 2007?) and I remember you wanting the Browns to even draft him in round 1...
I didn't want to go that route since I think it's as classless as yours but since you obsesssivly get on my back despite me seriously asking you to get off of it and calling me names without getting banned...I'll play....everytime you do Pavlov's dog on me I'll remind everyone about your Dorsey pimping...that's "kinda" fair I think 
Seriously, get off my back...that's a good will advice because I somehow like you...if Barwin is your biggest "weapon" against my 1000 predictions, mocks, comments on players/coaches I've made on here, you're in serious trouble
#gmstrong
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Rt - Okeung
SS - Coleman
DE - Alem
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Quote:
I don't see that comparison at all really.
And Earl Thomas is gone long before round 2 swings around. For the record, I like him more than Mays.
Silly Question (perhaps): If you like Thomas better than Mays, then why not take Thomas at #7?
Perhaps you are buying too much into how other sites have him slotted? 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I think it's because he knows you should only draft sure stud-S in the Top 10...and the only sure stud at S is Berry (run, pass, impact, paymaking ability...the whole package)....even though I think Thomas has a good shot at becoming a pretty good FS
Berry-Hughes is absolute best case scenario but I fear there's less then 5% that we will be this lucky
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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GOt a few minutes so I'll play
We draft
1- Joe Haden CB
2- Von Miller OLB
3- Jordan Shipley WR
3- Gabe Carimi OT
4- Barry Church S
5- Mitch Petrus G
5- Max Hall QB
5- Jimmy Graham TE
Notable FA targets
Johnny Jolly DE
(I'd like Lendale White here, but I think he'll be priced out of our reach in this year's funky FA structure.)
So this gives us (basically)
QB- Quinn, Ratliff, Hall (DA cut/trade)
RB- Harrison, Jennings, Davis
FB- Vickers
WR- Massa, Stuckey, Robiskie, Shipley, Furrey
TE- Evan Moore, Jimmy Graham (cut/trade Royal)
OT- Thomas, Carimi (cut St.Clair) Womack
G- Steinbach, Fraley, Petrus, Womack
C- Mack, Fraley
DE Smith, Williams, Jolly, Schafering
NT Rogers, Rubin
OLB Hall, Wimbley, Miller, Trusnik
ILB Jackson, Miaiva, Bowens, Veikune (maybe cut Barton here)
CB Wright, Haden, McDonald, Francies, (Need another FA) (cut Poteat)
S Elam, Church, Adams, Sorenson, Furrey (still need help here- FA Ryan Clark?) (cut Pool)
Also, a buddy of mine put a thought in my head that I don't think is a bad one. We trade Shaun Rogers. Rubin played great at the nose when Rogers was injured and realistically, we're still in build mode. If we can get picks for him (I'd say one this year and one next), I say pull the trigger while he still has value.
Last edited by CanadaDawg; 01/18/10 02:38 PM.
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It still makes no sense.
If you are willing to take Player A at Pick N, and you like Player B better than Player A, nothing should prevent you from then taking Player B at Pick N - with the SOLE exception that you are willing to gamble that nobody else is willing to take Player B at Pick N and you are able to trade down and still get Player B while giving up on Player A.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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That's on Deep...I'm not sure he'd pick Mays at 7 (did he say that?)...anyway, I wouldn't touch Mays with our 1st 2 picks...so, I don't even have to think about him
as for the A, B and N stuff...I overdrafted Barwin in our mock, so if I like a player over others, I pick him
Remember guys: we need a coverage-S...badly...Elam and Pool just can't cover (TE, WR whatever)...Mays has not made any big plays in coverage despite playing on a good team that leads often and gets thrown at...it's fishy
#gmstrong
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I wouldn't take Mays or Thomas at 7. I'd start thinking about Thomas around 10 or so, and Mays a little bit later.
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Well, I was just making a comment in general (although using his statement as the impetus for it) - I think that people tend to get a little too ingrained with their selections and the locations of those selections based upon little more that what they've read on draft websites.
e.g. Let's say you read 47 different draft sites and none of them have Player B ranked that high, but you really like B more than A... yet you still won't say that you'd take B where you'd take A. It's just silliness because you either really like B more than A - or you don't.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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It's a true fact Purp, but to play devil's advocate, I think amateurs such as ourselves should take a look at scouting sites to see where the consensus is that players are being slotted when we're doing "realistic" drafts.
I mean, mocks that have everyone we potentially need coming to us are great, but they hold little value. Berry sliding to the second round? You bet!
There's players I personally like better than other players but I'll learn about their slotting when I try to figure if we have a legit shot at him. If I love a player who I think will be a superstar but every draft site is saying he won't go until the fourth, I won't pick him as first. Why would I? Get the maximum value.
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Well, that's just it ... what is a "realistic" draft? Those draft sites are doing precisely the same as we are - they are GUESSING where a player may go. Just like us, they are looking at team needs, attempting to read the tea leaves of what coaches have flown where or talked to whom, they are looking at 40 times and bench press numbers, etc... and then they are making a GUESS. Their pre-draft slotting is manufactured upon GUESSES.... and a LOT of those sites simply base their guesses upon the guesses of other sites. Quote:
f I love a player who I think will be a superstar but every draft site is saying he won't go until the fourth, I won't pick him as first. Why would I? Get the maximum value.
Understood, but that is why my caveat above: "with the SOLE exception that you are willing to gamble that nobody else is willing to take Player B at Pick N and you are able to trade down and still get Player B while giving up on Player A."
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Actually, there is a major difference. Many of the NFL Draft "Experts" are privy to valuable inside information. They talk to NFL teams and hear who teams are favoring etc.
A lot more of that goes on than what you might think.
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A Mel Kiper with ESPN or a Mike Mayock with NFL Network - yes.... the guys with GBN, Blahblahblah or whateverOtherSite... no.
If anything, at this time of year, they are MUCH more likely to be the beneficiary of misinformation.
And no matter what you may think, they are - in fact - still all guesses.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I'm sorry; that simply isn't true. I know someone who's brother works for an NFL team. Someone else's best friend growing up is an NFL Scout. There are lots of situations like that.
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Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,197 |
Just thought I would throw my two cents in about McClain.
Sometimes people over think the evaluation of players and the scheme best suited.
Everybody says Eric Berry is a great player. I don't really know yet because I have not seen him play at all. I will pay close attention to him as time rolls along.
McClain is someone I have seen. He is just a really good football player. He works hard at his game and he has the skills to match his effort.
I really don't care what scheme he plays in he is going to be a great NFL player.
We have a need big time at safety for a playmaker like Berry, but for my money I hope McClain is our pick.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089 |
At the root of this, you're totally right Purp. EVERYONE is guessing from Mike Mayock to DeepThreat to me. Everybody just has an opinion or guess.
However, I would trust certain scouting sites as they have people who are far more knowledgeable, have better connections and watch alot more tape and games than I.
What they say isn't gospel, but it is informed.
That being said, I do understand what you mean about people parroting and I think you're absolutely correct. The Tim Tebow issue is the most glaring example of this.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
I'm tired of discussing pretty basic draft value stuff with you guys...you obviously don't get it...so let's shorten it up: put your mouth to your wallet or shut up
Ohhhhh,U need a challenge eh?
anyone wanna make a bet on either:
a) us taking McCLain OR ANY OTHER ILB at 7
or
b) McClain NOT GOING in the TOP 10 of the upcoming draft
Apparently this just seems to basic to me..I know the Browns won't take him at 7 if ..and I said if they sit there..
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