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Holmgren doesn't expect both Anderson and Quinn to be in camp Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on January 28, 2010 11:39 AM ET Mike Holmgren has been given plenty of chances to back Brady Quinn this offseason, but he says it's too early in the process to call Quinn a starter. It's not too early for Holmgren to declare that either Quinn or Derek Anderson will likely be elsewhere before training camp. "I won't tell you that right now," Holmgren said Wednesday on the Dan Patrick Show. "They're both here right now. We'll see how it goes. I'm not a big believer in that competition stuff. We better make up our mind before we go to camp and then put our resources into one guy." Anderson's roster bonus in March and high base salary makes him the more likely trade candidate. Quinn's foot injury, however, could potentially keep him off the field in early OTAs. Holmgren may not believe in competition, but we suspect he'll be bringing in a quarterback of his own that could be an option down the line. To this stage, neither Quinn nor Anderson has looked like a quarterback to put all of Cleveland's resources into. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...-to-be-in-camp/
Last edited by BirdDawg81; 01/28/10 01:05 PM.
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He doesn't actually say that... A little loose on the reporting ? He says
" They are both here right now and expects to get behind ONE of them early if any"
"Just gotta Coach em up" , "I thought they Battled" , " I need to watch the tape"
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Yeah, but you wouldn't have bother with a headline that read "Holmgren unsure of starting QB for 2010"  They are trying to sell papers you know. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I'm not a big believer in that competition stuff.
It's about time! That "competition stuff" isn't good for either QB, the rest of the offense or the franchise. That was my main disappointment with Mangini, I expected that not to be his way, but he fell right into it.
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It's easy to try and point the finger at Mangini, but if Holmgren had inherited the mess 'Gini did he may have done the same.
Furthermore, it's easy for Holmgren to say that when he's never had two useless QB's on the roster. He'd have likely done the same thing in benching one guy for another and been in the exact same situation.
That "competition stuff" works, by the way. Jack Del Rio went that route and picked David Gerrard over Leftwich. Good call. 
There was also a QB competition back in the early 90's, when Jerry Jones' Cowboys took not one but TWO QB's in the first round. They had a "competition" to determine which guy got the gig. The guy who lost was Steve Walsh. The winner? Some cat named Troy Aikman.
No, this is no black-and-white issue. Holmgren has the good fortune of being able to waltz right in and evaluate both of our QB's without being forced to do it on the fly. All he has to do is watch what has already unfolded. But be sure of one thing: Just because there may not be a "competition" it doesn't mean he won't be forced to juggle QB's once the real bullets start flying, in which case people can be critical of his choices too.
Let's be honest with ourselves here. It didn't matter which bum Mangini invested in. They both aren't very good. They both failed, competition or otherwise.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Honest question here as I really do not know the answer. Is it possible to be "taught" accuracy at this stage of the game for either Quinn or Anderson? Can either one of these guys improve enough in that area to be a legit QB in the NFL? If the answer is yes, accuracy CAN be taught this late in the game, which QB has the better chance of improving in that area? Holmgren is supposed to be a QB "guru" right ??? I am honestly in the dark here as most of my limited knowledge comes on the defensive side of the ball so and I am just asking, so please don't think I have any agenda here. (hope I didn't open a can of worms with this  ).
Born and breed with OSU, App. State alumni, but bleed orange and brown.
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I listened to this interview on a podcast. And no where did Holmgren say Anderson or Quinn won't be in Cleveland. He didn't say much of anything when it came to QB's. Mostly that he doesn't like competitions.
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Of the two, I think Quinn will be here.
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Quote:
Is it possible to be "taught" accuracy
No more so that you can be taught to be a World Class Sharpshooter.
You can be taught certain things, and you can and will have to work at it incessantly, and it will help, but how much it helps will vary from person to person... and there will always be those other guys who just naturally have the hand-eye coordination that makes them far superior and far more accurate.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
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Is it possible to be "taught" accuracy
No more so that you can be taught to be a World Class Sharpshooter.
to be honest I disagree...
from my perspective I played baseball... I had a hell of a good arm and scouts loved my ability. I was a good hitter and a solid defender. My downfall was once a game... I'd thow a ball 5 feet too high to the left or to the right. I could never figure it out. it would always haunt me and kept me frow even bothering a career in baseball. As I've gotten older I became friends with a guy who taught me how to throw a better ball and not to have accuracy issues. It was all in the way I would snap my wrist when I threw. Since then I don't throw crazy stuff that ends up in the stands or killing the runner. I'm too old now to try out for the majors or anything like that so I've resorted to the leagues around here. Needless to say accurcy can be learned.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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While that's true to a point, there's a BIG difference in teaching fundamentals to an amateur and a professional athlete.
If the accuracy issues are simple fundamental issues then yes they can be corrected and accuracy improved. The problem lies in the fact that these athletes have literally endless resources (coaches, film, specialists, drills etc etc etc) that ANY fundamental flaws that would cause this have already been shown to them, worked on, worked around and drilled into them.
By this point in time, they either have it or they don't.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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QB's stats are very similar to their college years. For example Philip Rivers had a 63% percent in college and that is what he has in the pro's. Carson Palmer was a 59% in college. But has gotten better in the pros with a 63%. Jay Cutler has gotten better. from a 57% in college to a 61% in the pro's. All I am saying is that Quinn has not been givin enough starts or a decent supporting staff to tell what we have. I know that hes accuracy is better than what we have seen. A lot of people on this board says he is not that good.
I just say, you are no more of a coach than I am. The guy has thirteen starts, for god sake, we do not know what we have. And for all of you that says he sucks. What is that he really sucks at. Arm strength, not the greatest but not the weakest I have seen.
Mobility, he has that
Brain smarts; He has that
Mechanics; I am not a QB coach, but the only thing I see is his drop back is to long, he needs to shorten his stride. His mechanics look good to me. Ball up by his chest, short release.
Like I said, I do not know what we have, but his accuracy in college was 63%, so acuracy ahould not be a problem, if stats stay similar as college.
I think he needs to have a better set of recievers. especially a number one.
I am just saying
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Brain smarts; He has that
I think this one here is one of his traits that surprised us all, He just seems way too confused when he drops back, not to mention he can't make up his mind which WR to throw to. I think that one is a negative.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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It'
Let's be honest with ourselves here. It didn't matter which bum Mangini invested in. They both aren't very good. They both failed, competition or otherwise.
I support this message!
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There was also a QB competition back in the early 90's, when Jerry Jones' Cowboys took not one but TWO QB's in the first round. They had a "competition" to determine which guy got the gig. The guy who lost was Steve Walsh. The winner? Some cat named Troy Aikman.
And Aikman in his first year went 0-11, completed 52% of his passes and had twice as many interceptions as completions..... yet I do not recall any great calls for them to switch back to Walsh and to the best of my knowledge, Jimmy Johnson never considered it.
yebat' Putin
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I'm concerned about BQ ever recovering from the Lisfanc injury.
and if DA is going to be cut and BQ won't be in TC until August ,then what?
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and if DA is going to be cut and BQ won't be in TC until August ,then what?
hope Carroll trades for Leinart in Seattle and we can get Hasselbeck from them for a 4-5th round 2011 pick? (considering his age/injuries, that maybe happens for a 1-2 year stop-gap)
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There was also a QB competition back in the early 90's, when Jerry Jones' Cowboys took not one but TWO QB's in the first round. They had a "competition" to determine which guy got the gig. The guy who lost was Steve Walsh. The winner? Some cat named Troy Aikman.
And Aikman in his first year went 0-11, completed 52% of his passes and had twice as many interceptions as completions..... yet I do not recall any great calls for them to switch back to Walsh and to the best of my knowledge, Jimmy Johnson never considered it.
Twice as many INT's as completions, eh?
Man, did he ever suck 
Now seriously, there were fundamental differences between Aikman and the guys on this team, in that during practices Aikman showed inhuman accuracy to go with his cannon and courage. Walsh was actually in the same mold as Quinn, as he had the average arm but was mobile and smart. If Quinn or Anderson showed in practice all the traits necessary to be great, the juggling wouldn't occur.
Neither guy in our stable has the traits Aikman had.
Hell, if we're being honest, Quinn's play is very much equal to Walsh as he moved on in his career. As I've stated before, Anderson is this generations Jay Shroeder.
NCDawg, the answer to your question is: Some.
Bad mechanics and lack of familiarity can be corrected and thus accuracy increased, but some QB's can only ever be so accurate. The trick to predicting where a guy is in terms of accuracy-upside can be found when examining specific throws when he had no pressure and steps into his tosses. Anderson's upside in terms of accuracy will always be limited because he's a lumbering guy who doesn't do a great job of getting his feet under him. He also has a long track record of lacking even average accuracy. Quinn looks better because he's accurate on short throws and was in college. Yet when he is asked to make NFL-throws..............throws where the window of opportunity is very narrow...........he has struggled. He did in college, but because those windows were wide-open he looked accurate on the stat-sheet.
Derek Anderson is a finished product. Quinn isn't quite that yet, but he's pretty-close to being about as good as he can be. He's always been skittish when pressured, and has always struggled with intermediate-to-deep throws.
Holmgren knows all this. He endorsed Cribbs. He has done no such thing for any of the QB's on this roster.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Holmgren knows all this. He endorsed Cribbs. He has done no such thing for any of the QB's on this roster.
In all honesty how could he?
He endorsed Jim Brown too. But nary a word for Harrison who broke Browns's single game rushing record and came 10 yards short of breaking the all-time record.
Of course you endorse Cribbs. You don't even have to watch game film to evaluate him. He's slam up in your face week after week.
The rest of the guys, all of them, QB's included, will need a bit more scrutiny before any endorsements flow their way. Scrutiny which I believe has not been given it's due diligence yet.
This is not my endorsement for either QB. Rather I'm stating that Holmgren has barely started any real evaluation of them. A few looks, watched a little film, is likely not enamored with either at the moment. How could he be? The entire offense was so inept for 12 games that anyone could tell there was a lot more wrong than either QB could overcome. He's been pretty dang busy with other things so far. When he settles down into player evaluations we'll get more of a notion what he thinks.
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He may be playing the game the right way, but he has solid opinions of all the main guys on this team. You can trust he's already spoken with Mangini at length regarding his opinions on the QB position.
Consider this: Shanahan endorsed Jason Campbell. He hasn't had any time to evaluate him on film either. Yet that didn't stop him from coming out and giving a positive quote. Holmgren hasn't done that with Quinn, and the simple fact he'd do it for Cribbs, regardless of the obviousness of his play, states clearly he would be quite willing to endorse any player if he felt that player were worthy of it.
Frankly, I'd be surprised Holmgren didn't already have a firm idea of what he wants to do at the QB position. He just isn't so stupid as to say something truly negative about any player.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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But nary a word for Harrison who broke Browns's single game rushing record and came 10 yards short of breaking the all-time record.
small correction, holmgren said he loved harrison as a player.
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Can't really disagree, what you stated is factual. I also don't want to sound like I don't like Mangini, I do like him. I'm talking about the culture more than one season. This has been going on since Butch Davis.
Yes, competition is good, but when you continually switch starters, especially at key positions, it puts more pressure on the players. Sure, this is the NFL, no high school, these guys should be able to take it. But the players are still just kids. If they have to add the thought of "if I screw this up, I'll be benched" to their check downs and progressions, that's just another distraction that affects performance. At some point, a player has to be given some rope. And that's part of the problem. Instead of letting a guy fail and tossing him, the Browns keep making it a competition. Let a guy fail and move on.
That said, I don't think this is the year to draft a QB. I know you like a couple of the draft class this year, but even you give a "yeah but" with all of them. I have some faith in Holmgren, and if he puts his stamp on a guy, I'll buy it. But I also think this year is rich in D-Line, which would not hurt us.
Bottom line, I think we should ditch one of the two, in my opinion Anderson, and put the other to the test once and for all.
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By this point in time, they either have it or they don't.
I had several coaches work with me on it... like I said... sometimes it just takes the right person to explain it.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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Since we're more than just a QB away from being a good team, if he elected to stick with one guy, dump the other, and bring in some kind of insurance from another source, whether that's the draft, a trade, or free agency, I wouldn't be bothered by it.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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There was also a QB competition back in the early 90's, when Jerry Jones' Cowboys took not one but TWO QB's in the first round. They had a "competition" to determine which guy got the gig. The guy who lost was Steve Walsh. The winner? Some cat named Troy Aikman.
And Aikman in his first year went 0-11, completed 52% of his passes and had twice as many interceptions as completions..... yet I do not recall any great calls for them to switch back to Walsh and to the best of my knowledge, Jimmy Johnson never considered it.
It is interesting to read about Aikman. The guy really did struggle in his first year and he was throwing to Irvin. Who did Quinn have to throw to? I think that this proves that you can not look at Quinn's stats so far and be able to predict how good of a QB he can be. Aikman's stats were terrible at the beginning and now he is a Hall of Famer.
The only way to find out if Quinn (or Anderson) has anything is to have Holmgren evaluate him and hopefully he makes the correct decision or we can just keep playing him and we'll find out eventually.
Here is a little bit about Aikman from Wiki:
Aikman was the No. 1 overall pick in the 1989 NFL Draft, by the Dallas Cowboys.[3] On February 25, 1989, new owner Jerry Jones fired Tom Landry, and replaced him with Jimmy Johnson. A few months later in the NFL's supplemental draft, Johnson drafted Steve Walsh who played for Johnson at the University of Miami. Aikman won the starting quarterback job, and Walsh was traded early in the 1990 season.
Aikman's NFL career started with a 28–0 loss to the New Orleans Saints. The following week, Aikman threw his first touchdown pass, a 65-yard completion to Michael Irvin, but the Atlanta Falcons intercepted two passes and won. In a game against the Phoenix Cardinals he threw for 379 yards to set an NFL rookie record.[3] He finished 1989 with an 0-11 record as a starter, completing 155 of 293 passes for 1,749 yards, 9 TDs, 18 INTs.
Following his rookie season, Dallas selected Florida Gators RB Emmitt Smith in the 1st round of the 1990 NFL Draft. With Emmitt Smith and WR Michael Irvin, Aikman nearly led the Cowboys to the playoffs in the 1990 season.
In 1991, Aikman led the Cowboys to a 6-5 record in the first 11 games and had the Cowboys ahead in week 12 against undefeated Washington when he was injured. Steve Beuerlein replaced Aikman. Beuerlein went on to lead the Cowboys to a Wild Card playoff win over the Chicago Bears. Aikman played in a NFC Divisional Playoff game the following week against the Detroit Lions, but lost, 38-6. Aikman was selected to the first of six consecutive Pro Bowls.[3]
In 1992, Aikman set career highs in completions (302), passing yards (3,445) and touchdown passes (23), and led the Cowboys to a team record 13 regular season victories and the 2nd best record in the NFC. During the playoffs Aikman broke Joe Montana's record of 83 passes without an interception by throwing 89.
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and if DA is going to be cut and BQ won't be in TC until August ,then what?
hope Carroll trades for Leinart in Seattle and we can get Hasselbeck from them for a 4-5th round 2011 pick? (considering his age/injuries, that maybe happens for a 1-2 year stop-gap)
If Warner announces his retirement tomorrow (as expected) I do not see Arizona parting with Leinart. It would make sense for Carroll to want him, but I do not see 'Zona letting him go.
Maybe Carroll goes for Carson Palmer ... ah geez, couldn't type that with a straight face.
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
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There was also a QB competition back in the early 90's, when Jerry Jones' Cowboys took not one but TWO QB's in the first round. They had a "competition" to determine which guy got the gig. The guy who lost was Steve Walsh. The winner? Some cat named Troy Aikman.
And Aikman in his first year went 0-11, completed 52% of his passes and had twice as many interceptions as completions..... yet I do not recall any great calls for them to switch back to Walsh and to the best of my knowledge, Jimmy Johnson never considered it.
It is interesting to read about Aikman. The guy really did struggle in his first year and he was throwing to Irvin. Who did Quinn have to throw to? I think that this proves that you can not look at Quinn's stats so far and be able to predict how good of a QB he can be. Aikman's stats were terrible at the beginning and now he is a Hall of Famer.
Here's a fun fact, This wasn't Quinn's first year. He just isn't that good.
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
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Yes, I would consider it his first year.. 13 starts, that is not even one year. How many different OC's, three. That does not make a stable way to learn. I am no means as saying BQ is going to be good. But you really have to give a guy a fair chance. Give him more than rookie recievers. A OC that lasts more than one year. And not looking over his shoulder, then you can make a sound decision. He may suck wind this year starting 16 games, then we will know.
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On that note, the book isn't written on Quinn. That's being fair. Unfortunately, the tell-tale signs during his three seasons in the league are not promising. That's also being fair.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I don't think I said it was Quinn's first year. Quinn started a grand total of zero games his first year and only 3 starts his second year. It might be more fair to compare his first 14 games played compared to Aikman's first 14. Keep in mind, as BigDawg said, Quinn has constantly been learning new offenses with new coaches and coordinators. He also wasn't throwing to a future hall of famer that was in his 2nd year in the league (Michael Irvin). Stats over first 14 games: Aikman: 10 TDs 23 Int Quinn: 10 TD 9 Int Aikman: 54.2 rating Quinn: 66.8 rating Aikman: 178 - 340 att 52% Quinn: 184 - 353 att 52% All I was trying to say was based on stats alone both guys have struggled early in their careers. That just tells me that you can't look at Quinn's stats and figure out if he will end up being good or not. I'll leave that for Holmgren to decide.
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Yes, competition is good, but when you continually switch starters, especially at key positions, it puts more pressure on the players. Sure, this is the NFL, no high school, these guys should be able to take it. But the players are still just kids. If they have to add the thought of "if I screw this up, I'll be benched" to their check downs and progressions, that's just another distraction that affects performance. At some point, a player has to be given some rope. And that's part of the problem. Instead of letting a guy fail and tossing him, the Browns keep making it a competition. Let a guy fail and move on.
Competetion is great and benching a guy for another guy just might make that guy work that much harder to win the job back, in turn making him better.
I would much rather have a player that takes it as a slap in the face and comes back and plays his heart out and never looks back than a guy you have to worry about hurting his feelings or his pshyce.
It's these situations that you find out what a player is made of and if they can handle the pressure, which IMO quarterback is by far the most stressing job on the field. If I got a guy that couldn't handle the pressure of a little competition i'm sure as hell not going to trust him with the game on the line.
Maybe thats why they alway switch em' around. The cream is always supposed to rise to the top.
Now they have seen what they have and seen what they are made of so there won't be any more switching around. We are either going to keep Quinn and Anderson and let Brady play the season. Or we are goign to cut Anderson and bring in another guy, in which case depending on who it is that will be our starter. If not there will probably be................a competition.  
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Yes, competition is good, but when you continually switch starters, especially at key positions, it puts more pressure on the players. Sure, this is the NFL, no high school, these guys should be able to take it. But the players are still just kids. If they have to add the thought of "if I screw this up, I'll be benched" to their check downs and progressions, that's just another distraction that affects performance. At some point, a player has to be given some rope. And that's part of the problem. Instead of letting a guy fail and tossing him, the Browns keep making it a competition. Let a guy fail and move on.
Competetion is great and benching a guy for another guy just might make that guy work that much harder to win the job back, in turn making him better.
I would much rather have a player that takes it as a slap in the face and comes back and plays his heart out and never looks back than a guy you have to worry about hurting his feelings or his pshyce.
It's these situations that you find out what a player is made of and if they can handle the pressure, which IMO quarterback is by far the most stressing job on the field. If I got a guy that couldn't handle the pressure of a little competition i'm sure as hell not going to trust him with the game on the line.
Maybe thats why they alway switch em' around. The cream is always supposed to rise to the top.
Now they have seen what they have and seen what they are made of so there won't be any more switching around. We are either going to keep Quinn and Anderson and let Brady play the season. Or we are goign to cut Anderson and bring in another guy, in which case depending on who it is that will be our starter. If it's a sort of unknown there will probably be................a competition.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 250
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 250 |
Leinart is a weak armed QB with a low completion rate %. Arizona should welcome any one giving them a six pack or a few scratch offs. It would be easy to find a better QB than Leinart in the first three rounds.
Replacing Warner will require a trade for McNabb. Good Luck with that Arizona.
Ted Nugent said,"that Davy Crockett shooting at Santa Anna's Army was the right thing to do, he just wouldn't get the Hispanic vote today".
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,164 Likes: 134
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,164 Likes: 134 |
Just clicking I got all excited yesterday while watching Sportscenter on ESPN.. They had a segment coming up that read, Hasselback Swap... I was thinking that Holmgren did something to get Hasselback to the Browns... Turns out to be Tim Hasselback swapped for his wife Elizebeth on Sportscenter.. Bummed me out... Tell me we aren't hungrey for news 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,839 Likes: 11
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,839 Likes: 11 |
Quinn needs to start.. I see no reason why he can't be the guy.. Accuracy on the deep ball is the only issue, but other than that.. He's a fighter.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
Quote:
Just clicking
I got all excited yesterday while watching Sportscenter on ESPN.. They had a segment coming up that read, Hasselback Swap...
I was thinking that Holmgren did something to get Hasselback to the Browns...
Turns out to be Tim Hasselback swapped for his wife Elizebeth on Sportscenter.. Bummed me out...
Tell me we aren't hungrey for news
I'll take Elizabeth over Matt any day 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,164 Likes: 134
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,164 Likes: 134 |
Quote:
I'll take Elizabeth over Matt any day
Me Too
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 814 Likes: 8
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 814 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Quinn needs to start.. I see no reason why he can't be the guy.. Accuracy on the deep ball is the only issue, but other than that.. He's a fighter.
He may need to be the starter for 2010 but I'm not holding my breath on him being The Quarterback We Need anymore. He'll be known as good but not great through his career. It's up to Holmgren and Company now.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,388
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,388 |
Quote:
Stats over first 14 games:
Aikman: 10 TDs 23 Int
Quinn: 10 TD 9 Int
Aikman: 54.2 rating
Quinn: 66.8 rating
Aikman: 178 - 340 att 52%
Quinn: 184 - 353 att 52%
Sealed the deal for me, Quinn is a HOFer!
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 560
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 560 |
I would say I agree with you but it appears you have completely missed my point.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren doesn't expect both
Anderson and Quinn to be in camp
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