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From the other thread: Quote:
I think either:
1. Philly is asking for something we just aren't willing to give and we aren't going to trade for him
2. Ferry put up some some smoke screens to see what kind of deal he can get by the deadline if he let word get out that there is an offer for Iggy on the table.
I'm hoping for #2, but realistically its probably #1.
Could possibly be ...
3. The players being asked for are players Lebron doesn't want to see leave ... and/or Lebron doesn't want to play with Iggy.
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i think the contract bugs danny ferry a little bit. it's not horrendous, because iggy is a solid 2 who can defend, but it's a commitment.
plus, i think the cavs are thrilled with what parker has given us, he's not flashy, he doesn't stick out, but it works with him in there, and he plays better defense than some give him credit for.
i'm not calling the guy bruce bowen, but he's kind of in that role, he starts, plays solid d, and looks for the outside shot, the spurs got that from bowen for years.
i think the cavs would rather get that stretch 4 that we have not really had at all
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I hope we don't give up a guy like Parker, he may be knew here but he's already an intrical part of the team.
Do nothing that could come even close to messing up the chemisty this team has.
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Quote:
i think the cavs would rather get that stretch 4 that we have not really had at all
Bingo.. I just don't see us doing much unless it is yielding us a stretch 4....
I don't know how else to say it, but Iggy would struggle to fit in with us on the offensive side of the ball.... Not saying it couldn't work (LB seems to make everyone better), but there would definitely be some "ramp up" time needed until everyone was on the same page.... Not sure we want to deal with "ramp up" time right now with anyone..
Iggy has spent the last 2-3 years being "the guy"...He is the one that gets the ball and goes one on one all throughout the game.. That just won't happen with us.. Even when we brought Mo in, LB still dominates the ball..
Thats the benefit of bringing in a stretch 4.. They can hit the ground running with us and not look back.. At the end of the day, I really think we are only interested in Jamison, Murphy and West..
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maybe, maybe not...we need an upgrade at SG as much as we need a stretch-PF. now, we don't "need" either really...but either would improve our team. http://www.82games.com/0910/0910CLE5.HTMThat shows production by position. Notice how SG is the only position where we have a negative effect on games. And PG might be 0.0 now, but it was actually a +0.8 before Mo and Delonte's injuries. It shows that SG actually has been hurting us the most so far this season. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean we HAVE to improve there because a big reason for that is many of the NBA's best happen to play SG (Wade, Kobe). But, getting a guy to limit those players even more would certainly help.
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now, we don't "need" either really...but either would improve our team.
That's exactly it ... we don't really "need" anything. The chance of improving our team with a trade is just about even with the risk of destroying our team chemistry. No need to dramatically rock the boat just for the sake of rocking the boat. Even Ferry knows it ... judging by the statement that he wants a trade done sooner rather than later if we're going to do it.
Right now, I think a trade for a stretch PF is about the only thing that would help without potentially hurting our current core team too much.
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What is everyone ones opinion on JJ Hickson? It seems to be varying thoughts on him and his ability. I've heard him being compared to Drew Gooden and thought of as a future all star.
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i think the sg position struggles, yes partly because we don't have a great player there, but also, lebron handles the ball so much that the traditional great shooting guard, in that position would probably struggle not having the ball, especially late in games.
you watch the great sg's in this game, they take the ball down the court late in games. they handle the ball. kobe, wade, roy, durant, etc...
i think production at that position with us, as long as we have lbj will probably always look a little weak.
with that said, an upgrade at that position isn't the end of the world, and you can argue it may be more important than a stretch 4, because of the uncertainty of delonte west, whom if you remember, was the only other guy that showed up against orlando as well as the year before against boston. delonte west is a guy built for the playoffs and if he we don't have him that is one of the few things that really worries me.
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I've noticed a difference in Andy this year, and I think its because of JJ.
Last year Andy had to focus more on scoring, which is great because he's 100 times the offensive player he used to be.
But now with JJ starting and scoring condistantly, Andy can go back to be the wild thing and come off the bench with energy grabbing every rebound near him.
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Quote:
because of the uncertainty of delonte west, whom if you remember, was the only other guy that showed up against orlando as well as the year
A little off topic but what you said made me a little worried about something. What happens if Mo chokes in the playoffs again like he did against Orlando? Who will be the guy to step up for us? That's why I feel like we NEED another scoring threat on this team. Mo has been good for us in the regular season but he just seemed like a deer caught in head lights in the Orlando series. So that has me concerned about his confidence level if we are in that situation again.
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Well it seems like Gibson has found his stroke again. The possibility of him recreating what he did his rookie year against Detroit would be nice.
I wonder if its a coincadence that when we have aguard go crazy hot, we made it to the Finals.
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I thinik Gibson was fairly injured last year which led to the decrease in play. Ankle or foot injury of sorts.
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Quote:
I've noticed a difference in Andy this year, and I think its because of JJ.
Last year Andy had to focus more on scoring, which is great because he's 100 times the offensive player he used to be.
But now with JJ starting and scoring condistantly, Andy can go back to be the wild thing and come off the bench with energy grabbing every rebound near him.
definitely. it happens maybe once every 2 or three games where you cringe when andy hoists up a 15 footer. he doesn't do that anymore. he'll make the smarter play. that used to happen 2 or 3 times a game and usually in crucial spots, not anymore. jj and andy make their living off garbage and all different types of cuts. andy is fine where he is, but jj is going to have to learn to consistently knock down that 15-18 footer. once you get to the playoffs, those easy backdoor cut baskets won't always be there, and when you run into a wall like that you have to be able to knock down those shots to keep you going.
Quote:
A little off topic but what you said made me a little worried about something. What happens if Mo chokes in the playoffs again like he did against Orlando? Who will be the guy to step up for us? That's why I feel like we NEED another scoring threat on this team. Mo has been good for us in the regular season but he just seemed like a deer caught in head lights in the Orlando series. So that has me concerned about his confidence level if we are in that situation again.
i think that was more mo being thrown into a pressure situation. the guy had spent just as long in the league as lebron, yet hadn't been anywhere near the moments in pressure that the rest of the cavs had faced. he had spent little time in utah and the rest in milwaukee who's been a doormat for the last 6+ years. couple that with the pressure of playing in cleveland, where the fans get uneasy and live and die with every single game.
chicago fans here are passionate good fans, but it's nowhere near the live/die like it is with cleveland sports. it's all melted into one with the 3 teams, there is so much emotion, so much passion that i think it could pressure a new guy like mo.
he had a bad series, he took a few hits, lost his cool.
and as i have mentioned before, for as bad as we looked, they actually had their best offensive output in the orlando series. they just couldn't defend.
i think mo will be just fine though. there is definitely a different vibe with this team. and for as good as they are, people are doubting them because of last year, which puts them in the underdog mode, and when you're the underdog you always have that little extra push.
plus, he has a guy like shaq, who's a great vocal leader, to be in his ear. who can fire him up when needed and level him off when he may be too emotional.
it just seems like shaq has calmed everything.
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I agree with everything you said. Especially about Shaq. Shaqs main purpose is to help stop Dwight. However the team will listen to a guy with 4 rings. Especially LeBron since Shaq has played with superstars like D-wade and Kobe. He turned them from superstars into champions. I've noticed a change in the teams personality as well. They seem much more relaxed and confident every time they step on the court.
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Quote:
that used to happen 2 or 3 times a game and usually in crucial spots,
I can't be the only person who immediately had a flashback to Andy deciding it would be smart to go 1on1 against Tim Duncan with a Finals game on the line.
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Quote:
I thinik Gibson was fairly injured last year which led to the decrease in play. Ankle or foot injury of sorts.
Gibson hurt his foot early in the year and according to BW it persisted throughout the year....he had to adjust his shot to account for it and it just messed up his mechanics.
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I said it in the other thread.. The eastern conference, as is (meaning everyone is healthy come playoff time) comes down to Mo Williams.. With Shaq adding the inside game, it allows us to space the floor more than ever.. Couple that with the fact that LB and Shaq are very unselfish, and you can bet that Mo is going to get a lot of open looks.. Surprised no one has mentioned the game tonight.. Always a treat to watching D-Wade attempt to play at LB's level ... 
I heart winning
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Quote:
What is everyone ones opinion on JJ Hickson? It seems to be varying thoughts on him and his ability. I've heard him being compared to Drew Gooden and thought of as a future all star.
I loved Hickson going back to his NC State days....very glad we drafted him.
if you have ESPN Insider, go search David Thorpe's archives for his scouting report on him...it's pretty spot on....
my take: Hickson has everything an allstar PF needs tool-wise. he has a nose for getting easy buckets, long wingspan, and an innate ability to use his body to create space (both for shots and rebounds).
However, he has a ton of work to do...he tends to lose focus when he's frustrated (hence the Gooden comparisons by some), struggles to assert himself against shorter, stronger PFs (doesn't stay low enough), and needs to get a better feel of what to do without the ball (both on the backside of the offense and defense). None of these things are anything he cannot overcome. He's young and with good coaching can continue to develop.
But, if you have a chance to upgrade for a player further along with less ? marks, then sometimes you gotta go for that ring and worry about the fallout later. Which is why you see his (and Gibson's) name in most Cavs trade rumors (because those are the 'assets' other teams want and think they can pry from us).
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yeah, and i can't watch. class 6-9, game at 10.
im gonna dvr it, but i know some jackass either at school or at my game is gonna spill the beans.
does anybody else find it funny that the cavs are unbelievably awesome, yet you still get biased, unsupported garbage from the media about how lebron needs nyc, yet d-wade plays in miami on an extremely mediocre team, and doesn't get nearly the same press about the same situation?
i know lbj is a bigger name and a better player, but they are both superstars and i think it's hilarious. and if anyone listened to windy on the rizzo show today, you have got to be smiling after hearing his thoughts.
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Quote:
Quote:
What is everyone ones opinion on JJ Hickson? It seems to be varying thoughts on him and his ability. I've heard him being compared to Drew Gooden and thought of as a future all star.
I loved Hickson going back to his NC State days....very glad we drafted him.
if you have ESPN Insider, go search David Thorpe's archives for his scouting report on him...it's pretty spot on....
my take: Hickson has everything an allstar PF needs tool-wise. he has a nose for getting easy buckets, long wingspan, and an innate ability to use his body to create space (both for shots and rebounds).
However, he has a ton of work to do...he tends to lose focus when he's frustrated (hence the Gooden comparisons by some), struggles to assert himself against shorter, stronger PFs (doesn't stay low enough), and needs to get a better feel of what to do without the ball (both on the backside of the offense and defense). None of these things are anything he cannot overcome. He's young and with good coaching can continue to develop.
But, if you have a chance to upgrade for a player further along with less ? marks, then sometimes you gotta go for that ring and worry about the fallout later. Which is why you see his (and Gibson's) name in most Cavs trade rumors (because those are the 'assets' other teams want and think they can pry from us).
i was actually thinking the other day, while watching the cavs/grizz game that i it was pretty funny how all of us wanted either courtney lee, or chris douglas roberts, mario chalmers, kosta koufous, etc...
and most were all "jj who??" and it turns out jj probably is the best out of the bunch, and definitely has the highest ceiling of anyone i mentioned.
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J/C..
Windy's twitter page is funny right now.. He put up a few funny tweets in regards to that stupid story about Isiah Thomas telling ESPN Radio NY that he would endorse NY to LB..
Funny stuff, you guys should check it out..
I heart winning
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yeah, i mean if anything that should be an endorsement to stay as far away as humanly possible.
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Agreed, I wasn't a JJ Hickson fan until this season. He looked completely raw as a rookie last year, but LeBron working with him in the offseason really helped. The difference between Drew Gooden and JJ is that JJ wants to get better, he has a desire to get better. I can see it in his game. Drew Gooden reached a stage where he was putting up decent numbers then turned on cruise-control. I don't see that happening with JJ. I would prefer not to give him or Daniel Gibson up for a guy like Antawn or Murphy. I'd be iffy about giving them up for Iguodala too, depending on their proposal (i.e. if we can get Iguodala alone, excellent, take it). Quote:
A little off topic but what you said made me a little worried about something. What happens if Mo chokes in the playoffs again like he did against Orlando? Who will be the guy to step up for us? That's why I feel like we NEED another scoring threat on this team. Mo has been good for us in the regular season but he just seemed like a deer caught in head lights in the Orlando series. So that has me concerned about his confidence level if we are in that situation again.
This is my concern as well, and frankly, I'm not convinced Mo will perform any differently this season. I like Mo, but not enough to where my franchise's future possibly depends on it. With another option, we increase our chances of succeeding, and decrease our chances of failing this season.
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Can I put out my official endorsement for him to stay in Cleveland? It essentially carried the same weight....and like you said LBJ, it might even carry more weight than Thomas.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Quote:
i was actually thinking the other day, while watching the cavs/grizz game that i it was pretty funny how all of us wanted either courtney lee, or chris douglas roberts, mario chalmers, kosta koufous, etc...
and most were all "jj who??" and it turns out jj probably is the best out of the bunch, and definitely has the highest ceiling of anyone i mentioned.
ok, i'm going to go Django for a second....couldn't help but to look up what I actually wrote before the draft on Mr. Hickson and give myself a pat on the back.
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JJ Hickson – Real under the radar guy who I don’t see slipping out of the 1st round….he plays like his pants are on fire and can rebound/block and score in the paint well. He is a bit more raw than some of the other guys, but his athleticism and potential is through the roof and he could make the team that takes a chance on him very happy.
Hickson Pre-Draft Scouting Report
then again, my 2nd choice would have been Donte Greene...and I wanted to buy a 2nd round pick to get either Bill Walker or Joey Dorsey for our bench. But, hey, I was right on with Hickson 
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Quote:
A little off topic but what you said made me a little worried about something. What happens if Mo chokes in the playoffs again like he did against Orlando? Who will be the guy to step up for us?
Are you forgetting that big 7 foot monster we traded for in the offseason?
Also both Parker and Gibson have been excellent from range this year.
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From RCF: Quote:
"A move is unlikely as of today" -Ferry on WKNR
My response, same as the second poster after:
Quote:
please be posturing.
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Quote:
From RCF:
Quote:
"A move is unlikely as of today" -Ferry on WKNR
My response, same as the second poster after:
Quote:
please be posturing.
I don't understand your anger.
Were the best team in the league, why do we need to do anything?
Boston is scrambling to get younger, Orlando is wondering who to fire for screwing up their team, Atlantas the second best team in the East and are still a year or two away from having the proper levels of talent and experience.
And in the West, well, did you see the two game vs the Lakers this year? Add Artests clumsiness and Kobe injuring a different body part each week, and the only thing in our way...
...Is the fact that we play in Cleveland.
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Quote:
I don't understand your anger.
Were the best team in the league, why do we need to do anything?
Post-season hasn't started, so it would be more correct to say we are the best NBA team this regular season. We have to understand that we don't have the luxury to say, "Okay, we don't need to make a trade, we're good enough". If we can improve, there's no excuses not to, and I think we can, in principle.
Complacency is an unnecessary risk but let me clarify this: I'm not promoting a trade for trade's sake, I'm promoting trade for improvement's sake, and according to certain reports, it's possible.
We are one Shaq injury away from disaster.
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JJ just posterized Flash. I hope Wade has learned it's not a good idea try to embarrass our guys
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't understand your anger.
Were the best team in the league, why do we need to do anything?
Post-season hasn't started, so it would be more correct to say we are the best NBA team this regular season. We have to understand that we don't have the luxury to say, "Okay, we don't need to make a trade, we're good enough". If we can improve, there's no excuses not to, and I think we can, in principle.
Complacency is an unnecessary risk but let me clarify this: I'm not promoting a trade for trade's sake, I'm promoting trade for improvement's sake, and according to certain reports, it's possible.
We are one Shaq injury away from disaster.
And were one Dwight Howard injury away from pretty much representing the East.
who's to say your going to get better after a trade? Just because player A is better doesn't mean the team as a whole is better.
And I mean what would we do without Shaq? We didn't have him last year and only won 66 regular season games and lost in the East finals dur to Orlandos redic shooting %. Too bad they gutted their team or wed be in trouble..?
Once again, the grass(trade) isn't always greener on the other side.
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Quote:
Complacency is an unnecessary risk but let me clarify this: I'm not promoting a trade for trade's sake, I'm promoting trade for improvement's sake, and according to certain reports, it's possible.
You are assuming that we have a trade offer that's going to actually improve us. From what I've heard, in order for salaries to match up ... Phily would either trade AI2 straight up for Z (more than likely NOT what was offered) ... or we would take AI2 and Dalenbert for Z, Hickson, Gibson and Parker. That's a pretty considerable hole to put in our team.
Keep in mind that AI2 is a slasher and shutdown defender ... he's not the best jump shooter. So while we may improve on D, we aren't exactly getting much back on offense other than a dunker. Remember the last time we had a defensive minded slasher on the team? We called it the "Larry Hughes Era". Granted, AI2 is a considerable upgrade over Hughes ... but there is still a BIG question as to how he would fit into/help an offense that is already featuring Shaq, Andy and Parker. Then add in that we would be losing some offensive help in JJ (who's having a good game right now) and Boobie ... it's not exactly a slam-dunk "improvement".
Now if Philly wants to trade Z for AI2 straight up ... that's a whole different story. I just don't think they do that.
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We are one Shaq injury away from disaster.
every team is one player away from disaster ...
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JJ just posterized Flash. I hope Wade has learned it's not a good idea try to embarrass our guys
And he just de-posterized Flash with a huge block.
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And were one Dwight Howard injury away from pretty much representing the East.
There's a difference between Dwight Howard being injured, and Shaq being injured. Dwight Howard can come back the following season, and contribute for years to come. Shaq does not have that luxury. We cannot keep putting our faith into an aging Shaq, sooner or later we're going to need to address it, and give LeBron a true #2, so, it's really only delaying the inevitable.
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who's to say your going to get better after a trade? Just because player A is better doesn't mean the team as a whole is better.
Who's to say? Who's to not say? If player A is better, then it follows that player A can contribute. If player A does not pan out, we still have our original lineup with Bron, Mo, and Shaq.
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And I mean what would we do without Shaq? We didn't have him last year and only won 66 regular season games and lost in the East finals dur to Orlandos redic shooting %. Too bad they gutted their team or wed be in trouble..?
Our loss to Orlando had nothing to do with JJ Redick's shooting, the problem was that 1. We didn't have anyone to handle Dwight, 2. We didn't have anyone to guard Rashard at the 4, and 3. We didn't have a second option. LeBron was being beat down, over-worked, and it forced us into LeBron isolations near the end.
We brought in Shaq to address #1, and so far, it's working. Shaq's post presence allows LeBron to play the 4, and guard Rashard, if necessary. We don't have #3 addressed. We have to address it.
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Once again, the grass(trade) isn't always greener on the other side.
It may, or may not be greener, but either way, both sides of the fence are green.
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or we would take AI2 and Dalenbert for Z, Hickson, Gibson and Parker. That's a pretty considerable hole to put in our team.
Philly, or any of the sources reporting it, hasn't asked for Gibson or Hickson. However, I have no problem giving up Delonte, Z, Green + picks for Iguodala. Iguodala gives us plenty of back-court trade chips. We're very deep.
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Keep in mind that AI2 is a slasher and shutdown defender ... he's not the best jump shooter. So while we may improve on D, we aren't exactly getting much back on offense other than a dunker.
He doesn't need to be a jump-shooter, we have one of the league's best shooters at PG. They compliment one another, but Iguodala's jump-shot isn't bad. He's capable of going on a hot streak, and with all the open looks he will get here, he will improve further.
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So while we may improve on D, we aren't exactly getting much back on offense other than a dunker.
He's a guard, not Dwight Howard playing SG. He can shoot, and he's averaging 20+ points. We're getting plenty back, offensively.
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but there is still a BIG question as to how he would fit into/help an offense that is already featuring Shaq, Andy and Parker.
He would take Parker's spot at SG, and Parker would come off the bench. As I type this, AC mentions us needing another scorer/#2 option. It's a weakness, it needs addressed.
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it's not exactly a slam-dunk "improvement"
The pros outweigh the cons.
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every team is one player away from disaster ...
Not like us. If Shaq goes down, who's 38 years old, we're back to LeBron having to be superman every game. If Kobe goes down, the Lakers still have Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol, and Andrew Bynum. If Dwight Howard goes down the Magic still have Rashard Lewis, Jameer Nelson, and Vince Carter. If Paul Pierce goes down (and he has), the Celtics still have Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, and Rajon Rondo. We don't have a legitimate #2 option. We have decent players, but no one able to carry a team outside LeBron.
If Shaq went down, while having Iguodala, we have LeBron, Iguodala, and Mo (when he comes back). If Shaq goes down without Iguodala, we have LeBron, and Mo as our main scorers, and we've seen what happened when Mo is shut down and LeBron's forced to take over almost every possession. If LeBron goes down, without Iguodala, we have Mo and Shaq. That's not going to work: double Shaq in the paint, shut down Mo, and make Andy, JJ, Delonte, Gibson, and Parker beat you. There's no legitimate #2 in there. If LeBron goes down, with Iguodala, we have Iguodala, Mo, and Shaq to beat you, that's still an excellent team.
The common denominator in almost all of the above elite teams is that they have legitimate #2, and #3 options outside their #1's.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 303
2nd String
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2nd String
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Gibson is our JR Smith, or Jamal Crawford. His shooting this season is unbelievable.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Just for the record "redic" is short for rediculous, not a reference to JJ Redic.
As in Orlandos rediculous shooting percentage during the east finals where they were like 70 from the floor, and howard was making every free throw he possibly could suddenly.
Onto your other points.
If Shaq goes down, were literally the exact same team we were last year, except for a healthy Gibson and a more experienced JJ.
If Kobe goes down they don't make the West finals, if bynum or gasol go down they have trouble making the Finals with teams like the nuggets around.
The Celtics are done, for as great a trade as it was, they barely made the finals that year and since then have rapidly gotten older, and old doesn't heal.
If Howard goes down, they have nothing in the middle, and Vinsanity gets to hoist up even more bad shots.
Unless were dumping rookies (though I like jawad) and guys that never ever play, I'm fine with the team as is.
You're not, I get it.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
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We brought in Shaq to address #1, and so far, it's working. Shaq's post presence allows LeBron to play the 4, and guard Rashard, if necessary. We don't have #3 addressed. We have to address it.
We brought in Jamario Moon and Parker to guard the taller shooters ... besides, Orlando got rid of Hedo Turkgalo in a panic trade, so we don't have to worry about #3 as much anymore.
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Philly, or any of the sources reporting it, hasn't asked for Gibson or Hickson.
Yeah ... they haven't mentioned ANYONE by name. I'm saying, since it's Philly that's asking for the trade, I wouldn't doubt for one second if that was the kind of offer they were looking for.
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However, I have no problem giving up Delonte, Z, Green + picks for Iguodala.
You wouldn't ... Philly might.
Like I said, Philly came to US first, so I'm betting (and I've heard rumors) that the trade offered is going to be signifigantly more than what you are suggesting ... meaning they'll want to unload Dalenbert and get guys like Gibson or Hickson in return.
If they offered what you are suggesting, I'd take their arm off ... I just really doubt they'd be offering that.
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He's a guard, not Dwight Howard playing SG. He can shoot, and he's averaging 20+ points. We're getting plenty back, offensively.
I don't have the percentages, but somebody broke it down and he's a below average shooter at the SG spot. He can slash and dunk though, which is where he gets most of his points. But he's not going to stretch the floor any better than Parker can right now. With Shaq in the paint and Lebron looking to slash too .... another slasher is not something the O really needs.
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He would take Parker's spot at SG, and Parker would come off the bench. As I type this, AC mentions us needing another scorer/#2 option. It's a weakness, it needs addressed.
And like I'm saying ... I think you are over-stating his offensive prowess. He gets his points because he's pretty much the only option for Philly. He gets good penetration and makes driving shots. I think it's a bit of a gamble to trade away half of our role guys and hope that he can co-exist with Lebron, Andy and Shaq also vying for points in the paint. Especially if it involves losing guys like Parker and Gibson (two of our best 3 pt shooters).
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The common denominator in almost all of the above elite teams is that they have legitimate #2, and #3 options outside their #1's.
I agree ... I would do this trade in a heartbeat if it allows us to keep guys like Gibson and Parker (and hopefully Hickson too) ... If Iggy doesn't work out, we can always revert back to Parker starting and Iggy being a 6th man. As someone else mentioned, Iggy works best with the ball in his hands. He'd be the perfect guy to come off the bench and drive the offense As a starter, I just don't think he's going to be the offensive "off the ball" option you think he's going to be.
He would be a great defender though and an upgrade ... I'd just argue how much of an upgrade. If the price is just Z, West and Green ... that's a gimme. If it's Gibson, Parker and Hickson ... that's pretty risky.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
If Vince Carter goes down, Orlando suddenly becomes dangerous.  Speaking of which ... look no further than Orlando. They traded away valuable role-playing shooters, for a good-at-first glance point-producer who won dunk contests.
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Joined: Dec 2009
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2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 303 |
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Unless were dumping rookies (though I like jawad) and guys that never ever play, I'm fine with the team as is.
You're not, I get it.
That's not true, I said earlier:
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I would prefer not to give him or Daniel Gibson up for a guy like Antawn or Murphy. I'd be iffy about giving them up for Iguodala too, depending on their proposal (i.e. if we can get Iguodala alone, excellent, take it).
And:
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but let me clarify this: I'm not promoting a trade for trade's sake, I'm promoting trade for improvement's sake, and according to certain reports, it's possible.
I'm not looking to trade away half of our team, I would prefer to keep both Gibson and Hickson, but if it involves giving up one for Iguodala, I don't mind. He brings much more to the table, immediately. If it involves both, no.
I'm also against trading JJ or Gibson for Antawn Jamison, or Troy Murphy. Iguodala is the exception.
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You wouldn't ... Philly might.
Like I said, Philly came to US first, so I'm betting (and I've heard rumors) that the trade offered is going to be signifigantly more than what you are suggesting ... meaning they'll want to unload Dalenbert and get guys like Gibson or Hickson in return.
If they offered what you are suggesting, I'd take their arm off ... I just really doubt they'd be offering that.
This is really what talking about trades hinges on. However, if it's true that Philly came to us, and that it's up to us, I think it's reasonable to say that Philly isn't asking for anything ridiculous, but I don't know that, so I may be wrong.
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I don't have the percentages, but somebody broke it down and he's a below average shooter at the SG spot. He can slash and dunk though, which is where he gets most of his points. But he's not going to stretch the floor any better than Parker can right now. With Shaq in the paint and Lebron looking to slash too .... another slasher is not something the O really needs.
I understand, I've also addressed this in the January thread to no_logo_required on why Iguodala can open up our offense and cause mismatches:
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Understandable concerns, but we have to put this into perspective: yes, we need a stretch 4, but it's not an immediate concern. With Shaq, it opens up so many options that we didn't have last season. With Shaq in the center, we can put Bron at the 4, he can substitute as the stretch 4 against players like Rashard. We weren't able to do that last year because Dwight, Bynum, etc., were dominant down low. That's why we brought in Shaq, and it's working beautifully.
If, say, we get Antawn or Murphy, (Antawn especially) will get abused by healthy Gasol's and Garnett's. That's where Iguodala comes in; I don't expect any team to be able to guard a healthy Mo, Iguodala and LeBron back-court. It's just not possible. That will force post-players out of the paint on help defense, and then Shaq, and the rest of our bigs can take advantage of the open space under the basket. Our entire back-court would be excellent passers (both Bron and Iguodala average 5.0+ assists per game). If the opposing team's post-players come out on help defense, not only does that open up space for our bigs, it opens up driving lanes for Bron and Iguodala. Both are vicious players when it comes to getting to the hoop.
About his shooting percentages, I've also addressed in the same thread:
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He's not great at shooting off the dribble, actually, but when he's the #1 scoring option on his team, he really has no choice, so that's partially the team's offensive scheme's fault rather than his actual individual efficiency.
When the opposing team is zooming in on you, you are forced to take shots you normally wouldn't to compensate for your team's overall lack of offense, just ask #23. He would not take those shots here playing with LeBron, Mo and Shaq.
The burden to score and carry the team isn't necessary. That gives him room to utilize his actual talents, and puts him in his proper place: a #2 option who gives you 18-22 points, and locks down on defense.
We're going to face elite shooting guards on our way to the NBA championship. I have more trust in Iguodala on Kobe Bryant, Ray Allen, Vince Carter (when he's focused), Joe Johnson, JR Smith etc., than Anthony Parker, or Jamario Moon. Why? Because it forces them to respect him as a weapon. We don't have that advantage with Anthony Parker or Jamario Moon.
It creates so many mismatches and opportunities. I have no concerns about his shooting: his FG% for this season is higher than JR Smith and Vince Carter, he's tied with Stephen Jackson, and is only 3-4 points lower than Kobe, Joe Johnson, and Ray Allen. His 3P% is higher than Vince Carter, Stephen Jackson and Dwyane Wade.
With repetition, and time, in our offense, he can develop into a consistent shooter/scorer.
Outside giving up young talent, and possibly having to take on Dalembert's contract, I don't really see any negatives. I agree with this, though:
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He would be a great defender though and an upgrade ... I'd just argue how much of an upgrade. If the price is just Z, West and Green ... that's a gimme. If it's Gibson, Parker and Hickson ... that's pretty risky.
If they want both Gibson, and Hickson, and refuse to accept anything less, then shut the door, the talks are over.
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