In an earlier post, you gave one specific example of a profitable road system; in one of the most dense cities in the world. I agree that NYC roads are profitable. So are Chicago roads. But I suspect that the majority of the roads in this country are not well travelled enough to generate enough revenue to overcome the costs of maintenance and toll booths. What do we do with all the unprofitable roads? Who maintains them?
Good point, but that's the beauty of a free market. If the road is heavily traveled, it will produce profit, and if it's not, it will reflect its lack of profit, such as dirt, or rocky roads.
Donations (and charity) may fund its original construction, or it may be built for individual self-interest expecting it to contribute to long-term profit, such as a farmer, who will charge tolls to others' for using it, and if it's for individual self-interest, the maintenance relies solely on the one using it privately, the farmer, and the tolls for using it are just a bonus profit. If constant maintenance is necessary, it's because its generating traffic, and traffic produces profit, and that profit provides the maintenance needed ad nauseum.
Airline businesses are a good indicator of how it would work. Their business prospers with heavy traffic, and they provide flights to almost anywhere. Why? People need to go from point A to point B.
This is what Adam Smith called the invisible hand, or the self-regulating nature of supply, demand and the free-market. You may be familiar with the concept under a different label: natural selection.
I woke up this morning expecting by now you'd have rip me a good one. It would have been deserved. I want to apologize for the "fraud" comment - I wasn't able to edit the post after re-reading and noticing your double negative about the tax cuts.
So from what I see we have: For those under the point where the phase out begins, everything else being equal, their refund will be the same as last year's. But they will come out ahead by $400 or $800 overall.
For those over the cap, again everything else being equal, their tax balance will be most affected by being allowed to hold their own $400 or $800, but overall they come out no worse than last year.
For those in the phase out zone, their tax balance will be somewhat affected but overall will come out ahead.
With this better understanding I'll offer my quick take on the situation which is surely different than yours. (1) I am for a balanced federal budget and don't like the thought of passing along our financial obligations to the future by this administration any more than I did with the past one. (2) if a tax break is to be given, then just make it universal without adding to everyone's tax calculation burden. Any politician involved in the creation of another IRS form should be burned at the stake.
Quote: Willie,, you are just ticked off that only a handful of folks feel as you do.
Yeah...that's me alright.
Quote: you don't like Obama policies,, I get that.. is that reason to disrespect him and the office he holds by constantly referring to him as King or King Obama..
He acts and thinks like he is a King...if you disagree with him he tells the world you are wrong. He tells you what you need and that he knows better than you do. He wants to jam things down the throats of people where the MAJORITY DO NOT WANT IT. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck...well...you know. (Then again, you probably don't know.)
Quote: Funny thing is, he isn't any different than Bush or Clinton was in that regard.. So yeah, you are bias against him,, you just don't want to admit it.. But that's ok,,
You and PDR can keep saying that until you are blue in the face. That right there is something that "only a handful of folks feels as you do".
Quote: Look around, I see a lot more than a few people that can't stand his policies.
Quote: What's your point,, we were discussing things on this thread... and many on this thread didn't find much wrong with thier tax situation this year.. Willies hatred for Obama is coloring his this entire debate.
Please Daman...it is Feb 10...how many people have their taxes done by now? You are clearly one of those people who cannot see what is coming...even when your nose is pointed right at the oncoming problem.
The IRS is even running commercials on the radio about this issue.
Be patient...you will soon see.
I do not hate Obama...I hate his disastrous policies.
Go back and read the original post and tell me one shread of inaccurate commentary.
Quote: I know this because he can't refer to him as the President or even just Obama,, he has to be "romeish" and be cool and call him the King..
You are really hung up on that aren't you? You are - once again - missing the forest for the trees...but you did get a refund so all is well.
President of the United States - Barack Hussein Obama...ok...now will you read the original post again?
Okay, looking back to your original post as you requested, what stands out to me is that you wrote:
Quote:
Do you remember last spring when the King decided to change the tax withholding tables to give you more money in your pocket for each paycheck? As part of his "tax credit to 95% of Americans"?
The King sold tomorrow for today (again) by putting more $$$ into people's pockets today (actually yesterday) in hopes of making himself look good throughout the year...but...then...along comes tax time when the piper must be paid.
For tax filers that are either (1) single with Adjusted Gross Incomes below $75,000 or (2) couples with AGI up to $150,000 - they get to keep the tax credit extended to them through lower government withholding and there is no piper to be paid.
So I have to base my conclusion on what percentage of Americans do I think fit these categories? His Royalty said 95%. A couple of quick Google searches for "median income 2008" resulted in me seeing family median incomes figures mostly in the $60,000 - $75,000 range. So I'm inclined not to have disagreement with his 95% assertion and fail to see your point. I think a better one would be to advise those affect by the phaseout to look into sheltering some income through an IRA.
Quote: Airline businesses are a good indicator of how it would work. Their business prospers with heavy traffic, and they provide flights to almost anywhere. Why? People need to go from point A to point B.
This is what Adam Smith called the invisible hand, or the self-regulating nature of supply, demand and the free-market. You may be familiar with the concept under a different label: natural selection.
We might just have to agree to disagree on the idea of all roads in the US being privatized. This is starting to happen for a few roads in various states, including Indiana and Illinois, but these are some of the more highly travelled roads in the US. I'm not necessarily against privatization for some of the roads where it might work, but I just don't see it working for the entire road system of the US. I still feel that the great majority of roads aren't well travelled enough to keep up with the maintenance. The answer is probably a hybrid of our leanings, some privatization where it works and the govt. picks up where it doesn't.
Keep in mind though that the government will have to be involved with any new road production, as I don't see how it would be feasible to give the power of eminent domain to businesses/collectives; eminent domain is necessary to get roads through.
I doubt anybody sees your point. If I got you right, you want to look at only half the picture - at withholding and totally disregard the associate tax cut.
Do you believe the government should be withholding more of our money so they can give us back more at tax time? If so, hell, how do you feel about handing Washington all of our money and then have them give us an allowance? From what I read you want the government to pick the time when we should be spending our own money.
Quote: Do you believe the government should be withholding more of our money so they can give us back more at tax time?
No...not at all...however...the government should not manipulate the withholding tables - which most Americans don't understand in the first place - all in a backdoor effort to make other failed governmental policies appear effective...by artificially injecting $$$ into the economy NOW vs. LATER.
Just like Cash for Clunkers...and the first-time homebuyer credit.
All these things were done by President Barack Hussein Obama - without being thought through - and coerced/implemented via his soundbite rhetoric of "we must do it now...or there will be disaster".
All this rhetoric and scare tactics when what he was really trying to do was dupe people into thinking that the (presumed to occur) influx of spending during '09 came from his (failed) stimulus plan - rather than from spending money today that would otherwise be spent tomorrow. (See manipulted withholding tables...cash for clunkers...first-time home buyer.)
Why is that such a bad thing?
It wouldn't be all that bad if that is all he did. But...he also GAVE people a huge tax credit to buy a car...he GAVE people a huge tax credit to buy a house...the cost to the American taxpayer is HUGE. When one person gets a tax credit...another person PAID for that tax credit.
All done to make HIS failed policies appear to have worked.
Quote: From what I read you want the government to pick the time when we should be spending our own money.
Wrong again...I DON'T want the government to pick the time when we should spend our money...yet that is EXACTLY what they did. Hell...that is a big part of my point for crying out loud.
I don't want the government to manipulate people's lives in an effort to make themselves look good. In this regard, I wanted them to leave the withholding tables alone because people used to have an idea of what their tax situation would be come April 15th.
At the risk of confusing you further...here is a comment on the tax cut...which was a teeny tiny part of my overall point in the first place.
Many people DID get a $400 tax cut...never denied that. Many people did not because they are the evil rich people who make too much money.
Many people who never pay a cent in tax to begin with got a $400 uhhhmm...hmmm...tax cut? Yeah...President Barack Hussein Obama calls it a tax cut.
But wait...you can't experience a tax CUT when you don't pay any tax to begin with...I'll call it an ADDITIONAL government subsidy payment.
BTW, when people who don't pay tax to begin with...get more money back than what they paid in throughout the year...what do you call that?
President Barack Hussein Obama calls it a tax cut.
When people who don't pay tax to begin with...get more money back than what they paid in throughout the year..where do you suppose that money comes from?
j\c Say you made the same in 08 and 09. In 08 they withheld $3000 and you got a $100 return. Then in 09 they only withheld $2400. $600 difference. You owe $500.
Say you made the same in 08 and 09. In 08 they withheld $3000 and you got a $100 return. Then in 09 they gave you a $400 tax credit and only withheld $2600. You still get a $100 return.
By all appearances folks who are against holding on to their own money have the option of submitted a W-4 even if they benefitted from the cash for clunker program and inherited more money tax-free than the average laborer makes in an entire life-time.
Well I'm no CPA either, been doing my own taxes since '76, and this year's use of 1040 Schedule M will be providing my wife and I with $800 off our 2009 tax liability (if I was not married I would have been been maximizing my 401k contribution during 2009 to maximize my tax credit).
I certainly didn't dwell on the change in withholding when it came about. If it was up to me I wouldn't have any dough withheld for taxes at all and render unto Washington once a year through an electronic transfer in April. I'd then open back up one of those higher earning money-market savings accounts at my credit union. The account requires maintaining a hefty balance and I had to close our's when we bought our 3rd house last April.
I didn't dwell on it much either. I don't send in quarterlies just so they can send it back to me, at the end of the year.(small penalty) I haven't done my taxes this year. Still waiting on a couple of 1099's. But the $400(unmarried) "gift" will be much appriciated.
As for the money market thing, is that the same as a cd.
Quote: He accelerated $$$ into the economy in '09 by changing the withholding tables to give you more of YOUR OWN money throughout the year in hopes/expectation that you will spend it then...rather than in the spring of '10 after tax time...so HE looks good with his stimulus in '09...because consumer "spending" is up.
WSU...so putting more money in people's pocket was not a good idea, in your opinion?
Somehow, I feel there is more to this story than you are telling. I will check your information against some family members who file their taxes in the same manner.
WSU...your bias against Obama is noted...but you seem to dismiss the fact that this country's economy was hanging by it's fingernails, trying to stay out of the next great "depression", when Obama took office. The measures Obama took at the time seems to have pulled this country back from the brink. Let me remind you, the economy was but one mess left behind for Obama to deal with.
This country's economy could be in depression today had the Obama administration not taken some of the measures it did...but I doubt you would ever admit it....
Quote: The measures Obama took at the time seems to have pulled this country back from the brink.
I saw a clip from "The View", and Joy Behar said this exact same thing. Are you talking about the stimulus package? I believe that was President Bush's idea......not that I agree with it.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
As I stated before, I believe the whole tax credit was not a good idea. To me why his attempts to create jobs through this and the cash-for-clunkers programs have fallen way short is as simple as one's nose on their face. I'm no economist, but it seems to me what Americans business fears most is uncertainty. And what has been the critical issue hanging over their heads? In my view that would be Healthcare Reform and the uncertainty of what, if anything, is coming and how they will have to deal with it? I'd say the best jobs program would be to get that issue settled one way or another. My opinion is that they should drop it all togther and simply pursue lower healthcare costs through consumer information programs.
My impression of the guy so far is that while I didn't vote for his agenda, I don't fault him for pursuing it. I give each President a year of goodwill to achieve what they saw as their mandate coming out of the election. I do think that he has pursued his rather badly. On his major issue of Healthcare he was failed to get in there, get his hands dirty and totally left it up to others.
Have to say that your reference to him as "King" has had me wanting to paraphase this to you:
Quote: WSU...so putting more money in people's pocket was not a good idea, in your opinion?
Interesting that after all the posts in this thread that you could still need me to answer that question for you...again.
Quote: Somehow, I feel there is more to this story than you are telling. I will check your information against some family members who file their taxes in the same manner.
I cannot wait for your reply.
Quote: WSU...your bias against Obama is noted...but you seem to dismiss the fact that this country's economy was hanging by it's fingernails, trying to stay out of the next great "depression", when Obama took office. The measures Obama took at the time seems to have pulled this country back from the brink. Let me remind you, the economy was but one mess left behind for Obama to deal with.
Talk about bias.
Quote: This country's economy could be in depression today had the Obama administration not taken some of the measures it did...but I doubt you would ever admit it....
Just had another return with bad news...eerily similar to my first example.
Both spouses work...no kids...don't have enough to itemize.
Earned $11,400 more than last year...combined earnings of $105k...had $644 LESS withheld from their checks...got $800 TAX CUT...so...
They earned $11,400 MORE than last year and effectively had $156 MORE withheld/credited throughout the year (800-644=156). That would be great if their effective tax rate was 1.37% ... but it's 15.8%. So...
Guess what?
Oh and for Daman...they BOTH claimed ZERO exemptions all year...just like last year.
Quote: Just had another return with bad news...eerily similar to my first example.
Both spouses work...no kids...don't have enough to itemize.
Earned $11,400 more than last year...combined earnings of $105k...had $644 LESS withheld from their checks...got $800 TAX CUT...so...
They earned $11,400 MORE than last year and effectively had $156 MORE withheld/credited throughout the year (800-644=156). That would be great if their effective tax rate was 1.37% ... but it's 15.8%. So...
Guess what?
Oh and for Daman...they BOTH claimed ZERO exemptions all year...just like last year.
Why are you so caught up with the amount being withheld? So they made more and had less withheld.. That means squat besides that they are getting less taxes withheld during the year... The real question which you SHOULD be pointing out is if their tax liability went up by percentage or not. Did their tax liability percentage go up between last year and this year? ie. are they paying (for example) 15% of their wages in tax or 16% of their wages in tax?
The only difference the amount withheld makes is if they owe money in April or are owed money in April.. it means nothing in terms of how much they are paying in taxes.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
Quote: Just had another return with bad news...eerily similar to my first example.
I can now a wee bit appreciate your frustration. I hadn't originally took it to be like one of those liberal posts that looked upon our previous Royal Highness as a piece of work by counting casualties in Iraq.
Quote: Why are you so caught up with the amount being withheld?
Because people do not generally understand how the withholding tables work...those tables are just a guess-timate at what one's tax liability may be for the year.
Ultimately it is not the withholding table change that pisses me off...it is the backhanded, sneaky way that the tables were "adjusted" and the reason WHY they were adjusted.
Quote: So they made more and had less withheld.. That means squat besides that they are getting less taxes withheld during the year
It means squat except for the fact that they were assuming that the actual taxes withheld would be MORE than last year...not LESS...just like its always been.
It means squat except that the change in withholding tables was "announced" at the same time as the "Making Work Pay" tax cut...making the withholding table issue even more confusing.
It means squat except that President Barack Hussein Obama mandated the change in withholding tables to inject more money into the economy today at the expense of tomorrow...while announcing the new tax cut at the same time...all ultimately in an effort to make his stimulus look as if it worked.
Quote: ... The real question which you SHOULD be pointing out is if their tax liability went up by percentage or not. Did their tax liability percentage go up between last year and this year? ie. are they paying (for example) 15% of their wages in tax or 16% of their wages in tax?
Why would that matter? They made more money...for decades when you made more money, more taxes were withheld...why did President Barack Hussein Obama change that?
In the first post of this thread I told you how much their taxes increased - thereby pointing out what you said I should. Here it is for example #2:
Total tax liability increased $2,056 as a result of making more money;
Total taxes withheld went up $156 - after factoring in the tax cut credit.
Like many Americans...the people were told they were getting a tax cut. They saw that because their take home pay went up. They spent their money just like President Barack Hussein Obama wanted them to.
Now they owe taxes because the withholding tables were adjusted much more steeply than the tax cut savings. Oooops.
Quote: The only difference the amount withheld makes is if they owe money in April or are owed money in April.. it means nothing in terms of how much they are paying in taxes.
You are 100% correct. Too bad that is not the point of this thread.
so you just have a problem with the setup of having people spend their refund earlier last year rather than wait for this year.. You are just upset that we had our economy propped up earlier than wait for this april to be propped up by getting refunds back.. of course, a lot of this stuff was mentioned back then and people just shrugged it off.. and now they are complaining over when they got their money or when they need to pay their bill.. either way, they are paying or getting back what they owe or are due.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
Quote: If my aunt had testicles she could be my uncle.
Willie...you do know that problem is caused by a recessive gene carried by the mothers sisters...and the gene is passed on in reverse to their nephews...you might want to check yourself...
Quote: so you just have a problem with the setup of having people spend their refund earlier last year rather than wait for this year
No...I have a problem with WHY it was done...and done in an area that most people do not understand.
Quote: .. You are just upset that we had our economy propped up earlier than wait for this april to be propped up by getting refunds back
Yes...it was an attempt to artificially improve the economy right after the stimulus package...followed up by dropping a billion...than two billion...on "Cash-for-cars-that-got-less-than-18 mpg-when-new" program.
Which artificially propped up the economy right after the stimulus package.
It is the purpose and deception that bothers me.
It is the damning of tomorrow in an attempt to look good today - which has become the trademark of this President - that ultimately bothers me.
Quote: .. of course, a lot of this stuff was mentioned back then and people just shrugged it off..
It was mentioned at the same time as a "tax cut for 95% of working Americans". My tax savvy clients - of which there are many - did not "shrug it off". However, so far and to a person, they expected the TAX CUT and withholding reduction change to be about equal.
It was quite deceptive to announce the tax cut / tax-subsidy-payment-increase at the same time the withholding tables change.
President Barack Hussein Obama has rolled out the deceptive "95% of working Americans received a tax cut" soundbite...but never talked or talks about the corresponding whammy in the withholding tables.
So...while they understand what happened...they are as unhappy as the clients who do not understand what happened.
Quote: and now they are complaining over when they got their money or when they need to pay their bill.. either way, they are paying or getting back what they owe or are due.
You are correct. But I would add in that they are upset because this has come as a surprise to them. Surprises are fun...but not when you are surprised that you are getting less money back than you expected.
This President has shown a frighteneing tendency to speak - and then act - before he thinks.
Did another return yesterday for an unhappy couple.
She made 3k more...he made 3k less. Both claim zero exemptions....
Reduced federal tax withheld? $5,600
So..after factoring in their $800 TAX CUT they are getting about $4,800 less than they expected. Uh oh.
There went vacation 2010 and new appliances for the kitchen.
Oh yeah...but they got extra money in each paycheck.
His quote: "We claim zero dependents and they changed my withholdings by that much?! I don't give a %^$% about the $800...I was expecting another $5,000!"
Have you heard the IRS commercial regarding changing your withholdings? I heard it at least four times yesterday. Twice while preparing this particular return.
Quote: Did another return yesterday for an unhappy couple.
She made 3k more...he made 3k less. Both claim zero exemptions....
Reduced federal tax withheld? $5,600
So..after factoring in their $800 TAX CUT they are getting about $4,800 less than they expected. Uh oh.
There went vacation 2010 and new appliances for the kitchen.
Oh yeah...but they got extra money in each paycheck.
His quote: "We claim zero dependents and they changed my withholdings by that much?! I don't give a %^$% about the $800...I was expecting another $5,000!"
Have you heard the IRS commercial regarding changing your withholdings? I heard it at least four times yesterday. Twice while preparing this particular return.
I am going to keep going with this thread in general...but now I am going to somewhat let the cat out of the bag.
Why should President Barack Hussein Obama be happy that I am posting on this issue?
Well...if you are paying attention you have learned two very important things in addition to my assessment that President Barack Hussein Obama is one deceptive son of a gun.
Two important things especially if your are pissed off about your tax results.
#1 - You actually did receive a tax cut of $400 - $800 this year. Either that or your tax subsidy payment went up $400 - $800 this year.
#2 - Your decreased refund or amount you owe is NOT a result of a TAX INCREASE by President Barack Hussein Obama .
That should make everyone feel better, eh?
Oh...last for this idea.
I prepared several returns for for the kids of my clients...high school to college age.
Guess what? ZERO withholdings for them. Which is what I suggest anyway so we do not have to bother filing a return.
What message did the kids hear? No refund.
Them: "But wait...I got back $200 last year".
Me: "well...yes you did...but instead of getting a refund, you got more money in each check"
Them: "So...I was expecting that refund."
This is in support of my contention that President Barack Hussein Obama does not think through his policies and instead shoots from the hip.
As much of an image-guy as he is...his image with the young people of this country is going to take a severe hit from now until April 15th.
Quote: Did another return yesterday for an unhappy couple.
She made 3k more...he made 3k less. Both claim zero exemptions....
Reduced federal tax withheld? $5,600
So..after factoring in their $800 TAX CUT they are getting about $4,800 less than they expected. Uh oh.
There went vacation 2010 and new appliances for the kitchen.
Oh yeah...but they got extra money in each paycheck.
His quote: "We claim zero dependents and they changed my withholdings by that much?! I don't give a %^$% about the $800...I was expecting another $5,000!"
Have you heard the IRS commercial regarding changing your withholdings? I heard it at least four times yesterday. Twice while preparing this particular return.
What did they do with it ?
Funny you say that...they asked me the exact same thing.
.
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