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First of all - it does appear toyota is clueless as to what is causing the problem......celebrating being able to save $100 million by not dealing with it completely? Sad.
Secondly, I agree with the article.......heck, you see the ads all the time on t.v. (drug ads that is). While this is a slight exaggeration, many of them are "chronic upset stomach? You may have chronic upset stomach syndrome - take "X", and live your life fully. (may cause liver damage, heart attack, increased stroke risk, in grown toe nails, blindness, death, hair loss, hair gain, irritable bowel syndrome, brain tumors or paralysis)
Just this week I told my wife, after seeing one of these drug commercials "ya know - 30 years ago people were dieing of the same stuff they die from now - but it didn't cost as much to die."
Now, we detect things so soon - spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, and still die. Life expectancy hasn't increased all that much. Doctor, hospital, and drug bills have increased immensely.
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Mac .... who benefited from the government buying out GM, and in what exact manner?
As I recall .... GM split into 2 ..... the Motors Liquidation Company, which contained all of the bad debt and assets such as facilities already scheduled to close, and the "New" GM, which was IIRC, 12 plants and 4 brands.
Didn't GM also lose almost 1/2 of its union workforce in the process as well?
They dumped the healthcare and retirement on the union .....
So what. exactly, did the government need to become involved in this for? What did we spend however many billions of taxpayer dollars on?
If we'd done nothing ..... GM would have gone nbankrupt, and shed unmanagable assets, debts, and labor contracts.
They did ..... and did.
So what the hell was the difference?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The difference is the speed and ease at wich they were able to do those things. If the gov hadnt stepped in, that bankruptcy and restructuring would have been mired down for a decade in endless lawsuits. With Fed muscle and money behind it, breezed through in record time.
Allowing the company to get back on track to producing both jobs and money with hardly skipping a beat relatively speaking.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
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Actually, Chapter 11 bankrupcy automatically grants a stay on litigation.
The debtor corporation has an exclusive right to propose a settlement plan for about the 1st 4 months of the bankrupcy. The creditors have to approve a reorganization plan ... and can propose their own if they so desire (once the exclusive period ends) ...... but in the end, a settlement is either agreed upon and approved by the court ... or if no settlement is reached, the case converts to chapter 7 ..... or the court dismisses the case entirely.
To the best of my knowlege, Chapter 11 rarely, if ever, drags on forever. It also offers incredibly favorable terms to the debtor company while under bankrupcy protection. They can cancel contracts ..... stop paying on debt, freeing up cash .... and cancel vendor contacts at will.
Of the largest Chapter 11 filings on rcord, the government wound up in partial or total comtrol of Washington Mutual ... General Motors .. Chrysler ..... and Citi Group ....
Those are 4 of th 8 largest filings ever.
GM didn't need a massive cash infusion to weather Chapter 11. They could have easily raised cash through non payment of debts and cancellation of contracts without the need for government "investment".
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Actually, Chapter 11 bankrupcy automatically grants a stay on litigation.
The debtor corporation has an exclusive right to propose a settlement plan for about the 1st 4 months of the bankrupcy. The creditors have to approve a reorganization plan ... and can propose their own if they so desire (once the exclusive period ends) ...... but in the end, a settlement is either agreed upon and approved by the court ... or if no settlement is reached, the case converts to chapter 7 ..... or the court dismisses the case entirely.
To the best of my knowlege, Chapter 11 rarely, if ever, drags on forever. It also offers incredibly favorable terms to the debtor company while under bankrupcy protection. They can cancel contracts ..... stop paying on debt, freeing up cash .... and cancel vendor contacts at will.
Of the largest Chapter 11 filings on rcord, the government wound up in partial or total comtrol of Washington Mutual ... General Motors .. Chrysler ..... and Citi Group ....
Those are 4 of th 8 largest filings ever.
GM didn't need a massive cash infusion to weather Chapter 11. They could have easily raised cash through non payment of debts and cancellation of contracts without the need for government "investment".
But they likely couldn't have raised enough cash to continue developing new cars and technology to remain competitive in the market.
It was bad enough that GM had to put the brakes on several platforms because they had to cut spending to the bone and is just now getting it's R&D back on track (fortunately, Old GM had some good cars in the pipeline that will greatly benefit New GM going forward)...the Cruze's US launch delay is in part due to the bankruptcy, as is the delay of a redesigned Impala, which desperately needs a whole new model.
Would you really want GM being forced to pump out Chrysler-level product due to lack of funds? That would have been GM's ultimate demise.
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First of all - it does appear toyota is clueless as to what is causing the problem......celebrating being able to save $100 million by not dealing with it completely? Sad.
They aren't completely clueless, but the expediency of the recent fix has to leave doubt that the root cause has actually been identified. On that note here is recent USA Today article about the topic that Ammo originally posted about. If either electromagnetic interference (EMI) and / or the millions of lines of computer code that is written to enable assorted functions is to blame, then perhaps no automaker is immune from this. I tend to think that even those that have fail safes installed may not be able to overcome EMI (if it is proved to be an actual problem). Such are the risks when we replace a mechanical process with drive-by-wire.
The "$100, 000 presentation" probably is symbolic of where Toyota stands today, but I can see such a meeting taking place. I don't envision such a meeting cynically, but in a more admonishingly way. Cost per unit is critical in all of manufacturing and warranty is a factor to CPU alongside R & D, production, advertising, etc. I am not offering an excuse for Toyota. It is not my place or aim to do so. It is all of the factors of initial design and implementation coupled with the resulting obvious faulty analysis that interests me.
Relative to the politics of this I would not be surprised if fail safe engineering is legislated as a requirement. Then again the current hearings may only be a charade in the name of political posturing and shameless vote whoring (yes...I am in full cynic mode now - besides Capitol Hill seems to be consumed with health care anyways). This is an interesting quote from another Detroit News opinion piece (Manny Lopez).
If the hearings were about real solutions, they would have called engineers and other scientists who have actually designed and studied the technical aspects of the autos to testify
I know not to expect such sensible action. 
Ultimately Toyota was wrong, dead wrong (and I'm not trying to be cute). Considering this and the decades of their market leading quality, all consumers and manufacturers should take heed.
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Would you really want GM being forced to pump out Chrysler-level product due to lack of funds? That would have been GM's ultimate demise.
Interesting statement. My opinion of Chrysler is that taxpayers spent a lot of money only to save jobs in the short term. Fiat essentially left our market due to poor quality. We can only hope that has been improved (the latest Consumer Reports doesn't bode well, but it is early in the game).
Taxpayers have no choice but favor a successful GM.
Last edited by Maddog; 02/27/10 05:04 PM.
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Difference: GM had been producing some top-quality vehicles pre-bankruptcy, Chrysler had been producing junk.
Plus, Fiat's quality has significantly improved since they left the U.S. market. Chrysler's new models aren't out yet (aside from the Dodge Ram, which is pretty damn nice), and won't be until later this year...so Consumer Reports' reviews of Chrysler can't be used. (Besides, for years Consumer Reports was suckling the teet of Toyota and was very biased, so I don't listen to them)
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.so Consumer Reports' reviews of Chrysler can't be used.
I said it was "early in the game".
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Besides, for years Consumer Reports was suckling the teet of Toyota and was very biased, so I don't listen to them
I find myself giving you advice that you don't want or that falls on deaf ears, but.....
I've found CR to be useful and have followed their recommendations of all sorts of products over the years. They were especially helpful before reliable information was available on the web. I have always been impressed with the detail of their reviews. As an example I wanted to buy a TV some years back and they mentioned that a 3 line digital comb filter was highly recommended for good picture quality. I took the gist of their article and the fact that Toshiba was the highest rated manufacturer and bought a Toshiba that has last for years with no problems. Money well spent, which is their function and selling point.
When I subscribed to their mag they did not except advertising so that they could remain unbiased. I do not know of any other type of media that practices that and I would expect that they continue to rely on only magazine sells for their income.
Your bias is unwarranted.
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Prius with stuck accelerator glides to safe stop
AP
CHP helps driver stop runaway Prius on I-8 Play Video News 8 San Diego – CHP helps driver stop runaway Prius on I-8
* CHP Investigates Runaway Toyota Prius Play Video Video:CHP Investigates Runaway Toyota Prius CBS 2 / KCAL 9 Los Angeles
* Runaway Prius in California Play Video Video:Runaway Prius in California CNBC
Tue Mar 9, 4:19 am ET
EL CAJON, Calif. – A California Highway Patrol officer helped slow a runaway Toyota Prius from 94 mph to a safe stop on Monday after the car's accelerator became stuck on a San Diego County freeway, the CHP said.
Prius driver James Sikes called 911 about 1:30 p.m. after accelerating to pass another vehicle on Interstate 8 near La Posta and finding that he could not control his car, the CHP said.
"I pushed the gas pedal to pass a car and it did something kind of funny... it jumped and it just stuck there," the 61-year-old driver said at a news conference. "As it was going, I was trying the brakes...it wasn't stopping, it wasn't doing anything and it just kept speeding up," Sikes said, adding he could smell the brakes burning he was pressing the pedal so hard.
A patrol car pulled alongside the Prius and officers told Sikes over a loudspeaker to push the brake pedal to the floor and apply the emergency brake.
"They also got it going on a steep upgrade," said Officer Jesse Udovich. "Between those three things, they got it to slow down."
After the car decelerated to about 50 mph, Sikes turned off the engine and coasted to a halt.
The officer then maneuvered his car in front of the Prius as a precautionary block, Udovich said.
In a statement, Toyota said it has dispatched a field technical specialist to San Diego to investigate the incident.
Toyota has recalled some 8.5 million vehicles worldwide — more than 6 million in the United States — since last fall because of acceleration problems in multiple models and braking issues in the Prius.
Toyota owners have complained of their vehicles speeding out of control despite efforts to slow down, sometimes resulting in deadly crashes. The government has received complaints of 34 deaths linked to sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles since 2000.
One of the crashes claimed the life of a CHP officer last August.
Off-duty CHP Officer Mark Saylor was killed along with his wife, her brother and the couple's daughter after their Lexus' accelerator got stuck in La Mesa.
The Toyota-manufactured loaner vehicle slammed into a sport utility vehicle at about 100 mph, careened off the freeway, hit an embankment, overturned and burst into flames.
Last edited by ttimothygman; 03/09/10 10:16 AM.
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The government should just ban Toyotas from being sold in this country already...
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The government should just ban Toyotas from being sold in this country already...
Now let me think,,,, How many Toyota dealers are there in the US? How many employees do they have? How many toyota factories are in the US? How many employees do they have? How many suppliers to Toyota are in the US? How many employees do they have?
I"d have to think,, just guessing now, that because of Toyota, there have to be at least 20 to 30,000 people employed.. Yeah, just what this country needs,, another shot in the arm like that 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I can't understand why these people would be messing around trying to just use the breaks. They do know what the N stands for on the shifter right?
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Quote:
Quote:
The government should just ban Toyotas from being sold in this country already...
Now let me think,,,, How many Toyota dealers are there in the US? How many employees do they have? How many toyota factories are in the US? How many employees do they have? How many suppliers to Toyota are in the US? How many employees do they have?
I"d have to think,, just guessing now, that because of Toyota, there have to be at least 20 to 30,000 people employed.. Yeah, just what this country needs,, another shot in the arm like that
Toyota kills it's workers...we can't have a company like this doing business in this country.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-canaries8-2010mar08,0,1192458.story?page=1
oyota workers raised safety concerns with bosses in 2006 memo
The notice told of worries about employees and vehicles over the automaker's push to trim costs and boost production.
1 2 next | single page
Tadao Wakatsuki is a veteran assembly line worker at Toyota who formed the union and one of six workers to craft a memo in 2006 telling senior management of their safety concerns. He said their warnings were ignored. (John Glionna / Los Angeles Times / February 27, 2010)
RELATED
Overworked
Toyota: Road to Recall
By John M. Glionna
March 8, 2010
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Reporting from Toyota City, Japan - All six Toyota veterans around the table agreed: The memo they were about to send to senior management could damage their careers.
The workers had recognized a troubling trend. In recent years, the automaker had kicked into high gear to fill the booming U.S. demand for smaller, more gas-efficient vehicles.
The union men had watched the company take what they believed were dangerous safety and manpower shortcuts to lower costs and boost production.
Alienating bosses could make the men company pariahs. But they knew they had to sound the alarm. From 2000 to 2005, their memo pointed out, Toyota had recalled more than 5 million cars -- 36% of all sold vehicles, a rate higher than other companies.
Toyota's failure to act, the two-page notice warned, may "become a great problem that involves the company's survival."
They added: "We are concerned about the processes which are essential for producing safe cars, but that ultimately may be ignored, with production continued in the name of competition."
They presented theletterto management and held their breath. But they needn't have worried. Toyota never responded.
"They completely ignored us," recalled Tadao Wakatsuki, 62, a veteran assembly line worker who formed the union. "That's the Toyota way."
Over the years, even before the recent worldwide recalls, Toyota was warned about declining product quality and worsening working conditions at its Japanese plants.
The warnings came not only from Wakatsuki's union, but from the widow of a 30-year-old Toyota worker who dropped dead at his desk and from an auto industry activist known as the Ralph Nader of Japan.
In 2008, the National Labor Committee, a U.S. human-rights advocacy group, released a 65-page report titled "The Toyota You Don't Know," detailing what it alleged were serious human-rights violations.
The report linked Toyota to human trafficking and sweatshop abuse in connection with its importing of foreign guest workers from China and Vietnam to work in its Japanese factories.
Many are pressured to work overtime without pay, the report claimed, adding that there were signs similar practices were emerging in the United States.
"Toyota is imposing its two-tier, low-wage model at its nonunion plants in the south" of the U.S., the report read, "which will result in wages and benefits being slashed across the entire auto industry."
Toyota officials said they could not confirm they received the memo but declined to comment further.
"Communication is the backbone of our labor-management relations," company spokesman Paul Nolasco said in Tokyo.
Assembly line worker Wakatsuki has seen what he calls the deterioration in working conditions and product quality.
In an interview, he listed a litany of concerns, including outsourcing key design work and shortening the trial-and-error period for new cars.
"We used to test every one of our cars for safety and quality," said the rail-thin Wakatsuki, a 45-year Toyota veteran. "Now we do maybe 60%. The old 100% is a thing of the past."
Believing that Toyota's unions were too compliant with management, Wakatsuki in 2006 formed the All Toyota Labor Union, which opened its ranks to contract and part-time workers ignored by the major labor group.
He created a website to publicize his views. Then, in the fall of 2006, six founding members drafted a memo warning Toyota about an impending disaster. After consulting technicians around the company, they also provided a detailed plan of action.
"Our responsibility as a labor union was to point out these problems that Toyota should have known about. People were overworked; some were committing suicide," he said. "Of course, Toyota did nothing, but looking back we see how important this was. We just told them what we saw."
Hiroko Uchino's complaint with Toyota wasn't over its products. She believes its workplace environment killed her husband.
In 2002, at age 30, the father of two collapsed at his desk of sudden heart failure. It was 4:30 a.m. and Kenichi Uchino had finished his assembly line shift hours earlier. But as a team leader, he was responsible for completing his paperwork on his own time.
The pattern had long concerned Uchino, who routinely worked 14 hours a day. In his final month, his wife says, he worked 144 hours of unpaid overtime, a common practice known as "service to the company."
In 2007, a Japanese court ruled Uchino had died from karoshi -- he had literally worked himself to death.
In an interview, Hiroko Uchino described the pain of watching her husband's energy ebb, how he went right to bed after work rather than play with his children or wash and wax his precious van.
"He used to tell me 'I'm tired, I'm tired, but what can I do? There's no way out.' He used to be such a happy person. But in the end, he stopped smiling," she recalled.
Two years ago, Uchinosneakedinto a Toyota stockholder's meeting to confront then-President Katsuaki Watanabe.
During a Q&A session, she got her chance: Without mentioning her husband by name, she challenged Watanabe about unpaid overtime.
"He didn't have an answer," she said. "He just turned to an underling and said they would look into it."
Nolasco said the company takes the death serious and said Toyota was "committed to strengthening measures meant to prevent work-related injury or harm" but did not elaborate.
One of Toyota's most vocal critics is automobile consumer advocate Fumio Matsuda, often called his nation's Ralph Nader, who in 1970 formed the Japan Automobile Consumer Union.
Now 84, the former Nissan quality control engineer has spent decades monitoring Toyota and Japan's other carmakers.
He calls Toyota's business practices the most secretive of all.
In the past, he said, Toyota sponsored "secret recalls," asking owners to visit dealers for vehicle checkups, a ploy that allowed them to replace defective parts and then charge the owner for the work.
"Everything Toyota does is hidden," he said.
Matsuda said he believed that Toyota also knew of defects involved in the most recent recall long before going public.
"I believe there will eventually be criminal charges," he said. "They knew there were problems with their cars, but they didn't do anything until they were pressured."
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Toyota kills it's workers...we can't have a company like this doing business in this country.
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n 2002, at age 30, the father of two collapsed at his desk of sudden heart failure. It was 4:30 a.m. and Kenichi Uchino had finished his assembly line shift hours earlier. But as a team leader, he was responsible for completing his paperwork on his own time.
The pattern had long concerned Uchino, who routinely worked 14 hours a day. In his final month, his wife says, he worked 144 hours of unpaid overtime, a common practice known as "service to the company."
In 2007, a Japanese court ruled Uchino had died from karoshi -- he had literally worked himself to death.
In an interview, Hiroko Uchino described the pain of watching her husband's energy ebb, how he went right to bed after work rather than play with his children or wash and wax his precious van.
"He used to tell me 'I'm tired, I'm tired, but what can I do? There's no way out.' He used to be such a happy person. But in the end, he stopped smiling," she recalled.
I typically worked 70 hours a week with my previous employer. 12 hours a day, M-F and 10 hours on Saturday. Not once did I think that they were trying to kill me. Incidentally, my starting pay was $3.75 /hr. I suppose by today's standards some would consider that slave labor. I called it, "paying the bills". My 70 hours a week has nothing on many small business owners.
As far as working without pay, that was his decision. One can always find another job when not satisfied. Perhaps he was on salary....dunno?
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The report linked Toyota to human trafficking and sweatshop abuse in connection with its importing of foreign guest workers from China and Vietnam to work in its Japanese factories.
That sounds horrible and may very well has some or complete truth. Then again the context needs to be considered. When did this happen? Pre-WWII? Post? Recently? This was reported by a "a U.S. human-rights advocacy group". What humans right group? Do they have an particular agenda or political leaning that would misrepresent the truth? As an example they could be communist or they could be legit and, again, the era in which this was practiced is very important. Japan has a militant and imperialistic pre-WWII history of subjugation, particularly towards the Chinese.
Are some current goods / parts made in Mexico or China the result of slave labor considering the pay scale?
Toyota certainly has their problems, but finding truth in all this is the difficult part. This LA Times piece likely doesn't help. Toyota did a webcast to debunk Southern Illinois University professor David Gilbert's claims of electronic malfunction (AOL DailyFinance article ). It's notable that Gilbert was paid by a trial lawyer group with pending litigation against Toyota to create the senario that was covered in the ABC News story that you first posted.
It's all about truth. Enough people have died.
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The government should just ban Toyotas from being sold in this country already...
Pretty convenient...eliminate Government Motors competition.
Somehow I think there is a conflict of interest with the competition investigating the Toyota.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
The government should just ban Toyotas from being sold in this country already...
Pretty convenient...eliminate Government Motors competition.
Somehow I think there is a conflict of interest with the competition investigating the Toyota.
General Motors.
Oh and P.S. The government has no say in what goes on in the operations of General Motors.
Last edited by Ammo; 03/09/10 04:52 PM.
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Nah, they can only fire the CEO. 
#gmstrong
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Nah, they can only fire the CEO.
Wagoner was a moron.
By all accounts, Whitacre is a H-U-G-E upgrade. GM employees have gone in skeptical and left impressed with him. The key was to get the accountants out of there and let the engineers run things and make the best cars possible...much like how Ford is operating today.
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I agree with getting accountants out of the way - after all, if you run a business the way an accountant would/does - you're screwed. But the books will look good.
But, putting engineers in charge - I don't think so. In that case, you'll have an engineering nightmare.
Put a car guy in charge - the one that tells the engineers to make it work, and make it easy, and tells the accountant guys to "just account for what we're doing - don't tell us how to do it".
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I agree with getting accountants out of the way - after all, if you run a business the way an accountant would/does - you're screwed. But the books will look good.
But, putting engineers in charge - I don't think so. In that case, you'll have an engineering nightmare.
Put a car guy in charge - the one that tells the engineers to make it work, and make it easy, and tells the accountant guys to "just account for what we're doing - don't tell us how to do it".
That's basically what I meant, I must not have been clear enough.
Whitacre might not be a "car guy" from his background, but he understands that you have to make the very best cars in order to sell them.
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Is this the kind of quality we can expect from government motors? GM recalls 1.3 million vehicles
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I don't disagree, but it was NOT the governments place to oust him.
#gmstrong
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Is this the kind of quality we can expect from government motors?
GM recalls 1.3 million vehicles
GENERAL MOTORS.
And that steering issue was caused by a Toyota-supplied part! (Not making that up)
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Quote:
Quote:
Is this the kind of quality we can expect from government motors?
GM recalls 1.3 million vehicles
GENERAL MOTORS.
And that steering issue was caused by a Toyota-supplied part! (Not making that up)
The part came from a company named JTEKT Corp which is part of Toyota's group of companies.
Last edited by ~TuX~; 03/10/10 01:42 AM.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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Quote:
Quote:
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Is this the kind of quality we can expect from government motors?
GM recalls 1.3 million vehicles
GENERAL MOTORS.
And that steering issue was caused by a Toyota-supplied part! (Not making that up)
The part came from a company named JTEKT Corp which is part of Toyota's group of companies.
Thank you.
General Motors (and Ford)'s quality is up there with the very best in the world today, but idiots still buy Toyotas even though their product is far inferior. Compare any domestic not named Chrysler against the best in the world and the domestics either match or beat the tar out of the competition...only footnote to that argument is the Hyundai Sonata, which is amazing, but the new Malibu is coming soon which has been said to bring certain automotive writers to tears due to its beauty.
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Recalls happen all the time - to all car companies.
Losing power steering is hardly on the same level as accelerating uncontrollably.
Now, we'll have to see if GM bribed gov't. workers to overlook this, then if they bragged about saving money by not fixing it.
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Here's a good article about the 12 Malibu. It *may* be produced on the same plant as the Volt. Malibu headed to Detroit plant? General Motors is currently prepping its Detroit-Hamtramck plant for production of its Chevrolet Volt – which is slated to begin rolling off the assembly line in late 2010 – but a new report indicates another GM sedan will also be joining the Detroit-area factory. According to The Detroit News, GM is planning to build the next-generation 2012 Chevrolet Malibu at the Detroit-Hamtramck plant. GM has already committed $336 million to upgrading the Detroit-Hamtramck plant for Volt production.
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Quote:
Recalls happen all the time - to all car companies.
Thanks Arch.
I get a real kick out of listening/reading to car enthusiasts have some great debate over which car brand is better. I am no enthusiast . . . hate to bust my knuckles trying to change a spark plug but I do take care of my vehicles, take pride in shopping for the right one, and get just as irate over a broken product like the rest of you. (I will never, never, never buy Chrysler again after a horrible experience with a T&C and a lousy dealership who basically told me to pound salt.)
For every Toyota complaint filed, we could if diligent, produce a complaint about ANY car manufacturer. They all have had recalls, EVERY new car dealership has a service department (and every time I go to a new car dealership, it looks like every mechanic is busy). There is quite a healthy living to be made fixing cars.
I realize Toyota made a severe blunder in it's handling of this issue but I fail to grasp how every GM defender can gloss over the NUMEROUS issues that have plagued them for DECADES. From bad product design to shoddy management to greed on all levels.
I think now, you are going to see a lot of people looking for 15 minutes of fame/money.
And if our Congress wants to crucify Toyota they might as well go all in and take a serious look at the safety of ALL motor vehicles offered to Americans. Don't just send a message to Toyota, send one to all of them. And fix lemon laws.
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Quote:
Quote:
Recalls happen all the time - to all car companies.
Thanks Arch.
I get a real kick out of listening/reading to car enthusiasts have some great debate over which car brand is better. I am no enthusiast . . . hate to bust my knuckles trying to change a spark plug but I do take care of my vehicles, take pride in shopping for the right one, and get just as irate over a broken product like the rest of you. (I will never, never, never buy Chrysler again after a horrible experience with a T&C and a lousy dealership who basically told me to pound salt.)
For every Toyota complaint filed, we could if diligent, produce a complaint about ANY car manufacturer. They all have had recalls, EVERY new car dealership has a service department (and every time I go to a new car dealership, it looks like every mechanic is busy). There is quite a healthy living to be made fixing cars.
I realize Toyota made a severe blunder in it's handling of this issue but I fail to grasp how every GM defender can gloss over the NUMEROUS issues that have plagued them for DECADES. From bad product design to shoddy management to greed on all levels.
I think now, you are going to see a lot of people looking for 15 minutes of fame/money.
And if our Congress wants to crucify Toyota they might as well go all in and take a serious look at the safety of ALL motor vehicles offered to Americans. Don't just send a message to Toyota, send one to all of them. And fix lemon laws.
Valid point about GM's past. Ford falls in that category too.
But the point is that this past decade both manufacturers have made GIANT strides in quality and engineering while their foreign counterparts have taken GIANT steps backward, yet people STILL somehow believe that foreign cars are better and are more fuel efficient.
Um, last I checked, GM is more fuel efficient than Toyota, and Ford has cranked out some awesome product, much of which is as fuel efficient, if not moreso than GM's.
But the sheep still say "Toyota and Honda are far superior" and call GM "Government Motors" like they want it to fail. Makes me wanna puke. What ever happened to patriotism in this country? REAL patriotism, not the "Republicanized" patriotism that Republicans shove down our throats.
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People don't call gm government motors because they want it to fail. The call it that because of the bailouts and that the government fired the CEO.
I am a Ford guy through and through. Have owned only Fords since th late 80s until recently. I want American companies to succeed and it grates me when people think the quality of GM and Ford is bad. Chrysler....well they aren't very good.
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agreed.
though I've always been a GM owner, and my wife always a Ford owner. it was a sad day when we went to buy a minivan without a good American brand option (as Ford and GM no longer make them).
#gmstrong
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Quote:
agreed.
though I've always been a GM owner, and my wife always a Ford owner. it was a sad day when we went to buy a minivan without a good American brand option (as Ford and GM no longer make them).
Chevy Traverse and Ford Flex
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Quote:
Quote:
agreed.
though I've always been a GM owner, and my wife always a Ford owner. it was a sad day when we went to buy a minivan without a good American brand option (as Ford and GM no longer make them).
Chevy Traverse and Ford Flex
Ford Flex isn't what most people would be considered a Minivan, but I'd rather have a Ford Flex then a Minivan and the Flex gives you seating arrangements as a minivan would..
but as for me.. I just got a used Mazda... where would that put me? American or Japanese?  It is a Mazda6 which was built in their Michigan plant as opposed to the Mazda3 which is made in Japan.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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It takes years to build a reputation and but a moment to destroy it.
And American car manufactures are still trying to repair their reputations from the 70's and 80's abominations they called product, at a time when the foreign cars were coming in and far superior quality wise.
A lot had to do with numbers, as the foreign makers have increased production they started having flaws, things they used to have good control over are harder to control in mass production, and there's a learning curve. One that the American companies have already been through and learned from.
If ever there was a chance for Ford and GM to regain the prominence they once had, now is that time.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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bluecollar and Florida.....well said As I said in a previous post, I do wonder how a company that has been a quality leader and often has led can have this acceleration problem happen. I have the same interest in how Hyundai went from shipping junk to the US to now offering up some very respectable vehicles. Quote:
but idiots still buy Toyotas even though their product is far inferior
That is just simply not true.
Quote:
But the sheep still say "Toyota and Honda are far superior" and call GM "Government Motors" like they want it to fail. Makes me wanna puke. What ever happened to patriotism in this country? REAL patriotism, not the "Republicanized" patriotism that Republicans shove down our throats.
Sheep? Really? Is that applicable to this thread, topics on this board or just in general? Far superior is a misconception and I guarantee you that no manufacturer believes that their product has such qualifications. If they did, they wouldn't last long.
Ammo you have now chosen to question one's dedication to their homeland. That's a simplistic and inflammatory path. Emotion is seldom the better alternative to rational thinking.
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Maddog,
Ammo's point I think may have been said the wrong way. If you're gonna do a car post, make it factually objective as possible even while forming your opinion (Toyota's not as good as they used to be).
I love all sorts of car manufacturers and have owned a Ford Contour, a Honda Civic, a Chevy Cavalier and now a Toyota. Right now I own an '05 Corolla I got last year with 85k. A year later, it has 109k (I drive about 24k a year!). The check light has gone on and off, it needed a new rubber seal and a new battery. Toyotas are not as invincible as they used to be, but it may be for several reasons.
Mostly decontenting...as Toyota got bigger...they may have rushed certain aspects of their design to the line without beta-testing them as well as in the past. For instance, they've done more "virtual testing" instead of real-world testing which means some aspects of the production process are sped up, but there is a quality lapse (not a big one).
The key is that they should grow, but not too fast and too much. Honda and Hyundai are learning this...Hyundai is actually becoming a favored car in the area where I live relative to say, Nissan and Mazda...Hyundai is almost on the level of Honda and just below Toyota.
Ammo,
I wouldn't say "Toyota sucks" because it sounds too emotion-based. Otherwise, you bring good takes.
You are spot on with some domestics getting better in the past few years. But the car manufacturer to watch out for is Hyundai.
Go Browns!
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Asian...understood. Ammo prefers to flame. I prefer a discussion and, as you mentioned, a rational opinion. Like this: Toyota's Tundra pickup weakened quality image BY MARK PHELAN FREE PRESS COLUMNIST The 2007 Toyota Tundra was among the most eagerly awaited new vehicles of the past decade: a rising automaker's ultimate challenge to established competitors. The Tundra struck at U.S. automakers' last stronghold: full-size pickups. It was widely expected to stomp them into dust. Instead of a triumph that pounded the final nail into Dodge, Ford and GM's coffins, Toyota's first full-size pickup has struggled. Tundra is nexus of problems The wheels didn't come off Toyota's revered engineering and quality-control systems the same day the automaker decided to invest billions of dollars in its first full-size pickup, but the Tundra is a nexus of the automaker's current problems. Toyota executives called the Tundra the most important vehicle the automaker had ever introduced in the U.S., but the program stumbled from the start. Its disappointing fuel economy was a shock that undermined Toyota's image of technical superiority. It struggled to reach it sales goals and fell victim to early recalls. The Tundra is among the vehicles affected by both of Toyota's current unintended-acceleration recalls. Toyota spent years developing its first true full-size pickup, tooling two assembly plants to build it. The current Tundra, which competes with the Chevrolet Silverado, Dodge Ram, Ford F-150 and Nissan Titan full-size pickups, went on sale in 2007. It replaced a smaller pickup of the same name Toyota had introduced in 1999. "The Tundra just didn't meet the expectations of people who owned F-150s and Silverados," said Stephanie Brinley of consultancy AutoPacific. "It wasn't the best in its class, and the Toyota halo didn't transfer from cars like the Camry." While U.S. automakers had built a succession of poor cars in the 1980s and '90s, Chevy, Dodge and Ford pickup owners were generally satisfied. In addition to underestimating the competition, Toyota's timing was lousy. After years on the upswing, the market for big pickups faltered just as the Tundra went on sale in 2007. Gasoline prices spiked from a national average of $2.11 a gallon to more than $3 as the Tundra hit the market. Toyota invested more than $4.5 billion in the two Tundra assembly plants. It then spent an unspecified amount to retool its Princeton, Ind., plant to build other vehicles when Tundra sales sank to just 79,385 last year. Carmakers don't disclose their costs to develop a vehicle, but it's safe to say engineering added at least $1.5 billion to the Tundra's tab. Few of Toyota's customers were clamoring for a big pickup powered by a 381-horsepower, 5.7-liter V8 engine. Toyota built its reputation on small, reliable cars and high fuel economy. "The decision to build the Tundra was driven more by Toyota's desire to be a full-line manufacturer than to please its existing customers," Brinley said. The resources that produced benchmark vehicles like the Prius and Camry were spread thin as the automaker pushed to become the world's largest automaker. Toyota President Akio Toyoda admitted to Congress that the desire for growth led to Toyota's current woes, but the automaker's Japan-dominated culture created some of the Tundra's shortcomings, said Jim Hall, managing director of 2953 Analytics. "The cultural gap to develop a big pickup is huge for Japanese companies," he said. Toyota spent more than a decade edging into the market with two smaller pickups before the 2007 Tundra, only to have its self-proclaimed most important vehicle ever for the U.S. run headlong into stronger competitors, a stumbling economy, a market shift away from pickups and now the company's own quality problems. With around $6 billion spent on the Tundra and more than 8 million vehicles now recalled for a variety of defects, it's worth asking whether Toyota's big pickup was a considered strategic move or a costly detour. Source: Detriot Free Press
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Quote:
Quote:
agreed.
though I've always been a GM owner, and my wife always a Ford owner. it was a sad day when we went to buy a minivan without a good American brand option (as Ford and GM no longer make them).
Chevy Traverse and Ford Flex
when you have 2 children you want to get around town with their friends and on various trips, please compare the Traverse and Flex to the Honda Odyssey and tell me which one is a better option.
a little bit of my soul died that day, but it was the best option for the family.
and there is a reason edmunds doesn't list them in the category:
List of Minivans and Vans
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Quote:
Some Toyota drivers suing in US for a full refund
By CURT ANDERSON (AP) – 13 hours ago
MIAMI — A group of Toyota owners sued the Japanese automaker Monday, demanding a full refund for their recalled cars and seeking a payout that could exceed several billion dollars.
Dozens of Toyota owners in Arizona and Washington claim the vehicles recalled over incidents of sudden acceleration are so unsafe they should be able to return them immediately. Attorney Steve Berman said many of the owners no longer trust their vehicles.
"When we talked with Toyota owners, they all voiced the same desire — to drive the car back to the lot, hand them the keys and pick up a check," said Berman, who is based in Seattle. "Fortunately, we think the law allows for exactly that solution, and we are asking the courts to make it happen."
The new lawsuits seek class-action status, which if expanded nationwide, could mean a settlement covering about 6 million recalled Toyotas in the U.S.
Dozens of other potential class-action lawsuits have also been filed against Toyota since it began recalling millions of vehicles to fix floor mats the company says can snag on the accelerator in some models and gas pedals that can get stuck in others. Critics and lawsuits contend the real problem is Toyota's electronic throttle control, which the company has denied.
Most of the lawsuits contend the recalls have triggered a significant drop in the value of Toyotas — between 6 percent and 15 percent, according to the Kelley Blue Book used-car manual — and are seeking a cash payment for owners to compensate for that loss. Lawyers involved in those cases have estimated Toyota could have to cough up more than $3 billion, assuming a conservative $500-per-owner payment.
The full refund cases take it a step further.
"I don't know of any parent who would be willing to put their kids in a potentially unsafe car in exchange for a few hundred bucks," Berman said.
A Toyota spokesman did not immediately return a telephone call seeking comment. Generally, the company has refused to comment on the lawsuits.
Matt Cairns, a private attorney and member a group of lawyers that represents corporations and individuals, said he didn't think the Toyota owners should be entitled to full refunds.
"If they prevail, such plaintiffs will effectively have received free transportation for the period of their ownership of a car that met their every need, something all of us would appreciate when we decide we want a new ride," said Cairns, who is the president-elect of The Voice of the Defense Bar.
Cairns said Toyota owners who sell their cars may be able to get compensation for a loss in the vehicle's value following the recall.
The full refund lawsuits come a week before a panel of federal judges will hold a hearing in San Diego on whether to consolidate more than 110 potential Toyota class-action cases before a single judge. The judge would decide whether the cases can be combined into a single "class" of affected Toyota owners and whether the case should proceed to trial.
A group of attorneys filing Toyota cases nationwide — known as the Attorneys Toyota Action Consortium, or ATAC — announced Monday they are adding racketeering claims to many of their lawsuits. The attorney coordinating the effort, Northeastern University law professor Tim Howard, said Toyota has known of accelerator problems since at least 2000 and engaged in a "conspiracy to hide the truth" from consumers.
"It's become increasingly apparent that Toyota profits were not built on quality products, but on a willful pattern of deception, fraud and racketeering," Howard said.
If fraud claims are successful under the federal Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organizations or RICO law, Howard said, it could push total Toyota class-action damages above $10 billion.
Claims of fraud and deception have been made against Toyota in previous lawsuits, including one filed in California in July 2009 by a former Toyota employee. The newer lawsuits are based in part on documents obtained by investigative reporters and congressional committees looking into the company's recalls.
LINK
This thing just isn't improving for Toyota at all. Will be interesting to see what the long term effects end up being.
Last edited by FloridaFan; 03/16/10 08:44 AM.
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