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Might as well kick off the thread of the team that has less relevance than the Cleveland Gladiators and Lake Erie Monsters in Cleveland.
This roster from top to bottom is pathetic and I bet the average attendance will be under 10k this year.
The Indians won't win a damn thing as long as the Dolans own this team. They need to spend money to get us to the ballpark and they refuse.
Mike and Mike had a good evaluation of the Indians, although Buster Olney was being nice about it sighting the economy. Economy my ass...the Q has no problem selling out because everyone and their mother knows Dan Gilbert is committed to winning. No one's coming because no one believes in ownership.
Discuss.
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Mike and Mike had a good evaluation of the Indians,
So what did they say?
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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Even before the economy, the Dolans refused to spend money, so that arguement is flawed.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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I think you are completely off base...It is not the Dolans...If you look at the percentages they spend in correlation to the money that comes in...they spend more than the Yankees. It is Baseball itself that is the problem. No salary cap...no revenue sharing...nothing whatsoever to increase Baseball as a sport or league. And as long as it stays that way...the Yankees, Red Sox, etc., etc. will always be the ones contending for the championships. Teams like the Indians, Twins, and other small markets have to rely on that divine wind when all the pieces come together at the exact same time in order to make a run. As it did with Alomar, Lofton, Baerga, Belle, and crew. We are doing the exact same thing we did to get those guys to get the guys we have now....
I mean you remember the Joe Carter trade right??? No I guess you don't...I think you were too young. Well the divine winds came and all of our prospects came together and all of them became good at the same time...and that was what allowed our World Series Runs...and that brought more people into the stands allowing more spending by Jacobs....Because Jacobs didn't overspend either...he had this team on a budget the whole time too.
The problem is NOT the Dolans.....it is Professional Baseball. And if professional baseball doesn't change...you can see them taking a backseat to both football and basketball...and hockey may slip in there too...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Eat it Phil...
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Go back to sleep.
Can't, working.
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Even before the economy, the Dolans refused to spend money, so that arguement is flawed.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This
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They need to spend money to get us to the ballpark and they refuse.
Nothing like the "die hard" fans of the Cleveland Indians.
The Indians fans make me want to be a Reds fan.
you had a good run Hank.
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The season has not even started yet, and your already bashing the Indians.  I wonder if the Indians players sit around bashing you 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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The season has not even started yet, and your already bashing the Indians. I wonder if the Indians players sit around bashing you
Coming from a Yankees fan, I understand the complaining. Now me, I'm looking forward to watching Phil Hughes throw today against the TBRays, but its comfortable knowing that my owner is willing to keep his good players on my team.
The indians don't do that at all, and seemed to stop when Jacobs sold the team..... You guys trade that Victor Martinez. You trade Cliff Lee. You trade CC. How can you expect to compete if you trade all your good players? These were guys I wanted on my team.......... When are you going to give the Yankees a shot at getting Grady Sizemore? I'd love him to come to NY and hold down CF for us.......
In fact, I'm going to throw on my Mark Texiera T-Shirt, enjoy FA and I plan to watching the Yanks this afternoon. I feel your pain Indian fans, definitely happy I'm not in your situation
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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its comfortable knowing that my owner is willing to keep his good players on my team.
The indians don't do that at all, and seemed to stop when Jacobs sold the team.....
that's flawed. the indians stopped being able to keep their players before Jacob's sold the team. it was when the Browns came back and then the Cavs got LeBron.
does anyone really think that the Cavs sellout 'because of Gilbert' or is it 'because of LeBron'? I guess if LeBron does leave we can really find out for sure.
the Tribe went from the only game in town, to the 3rd and Jacobs sold the team because he saw coming what we are in now.
also, last year's starting payroll was $81mil. That was right in the middle of the pack. The started off slow and fans didn't show up, that was the reason for the fire sale.
then again, arguing the Tribe with Ammo is like arguing politics with mac
#gmstrong
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Thank you no_logo ... I could go on for hours, but it would be like talking to a brick wall. To the guy that said the Dolans have never spent money ... they've had some of the highest payrolls the team has ever seen at one point.
The Jacobs never really "spent" big money until the fans were already piling in because we were the biggest ticket in town. Gilbert has never really had to "spend" money, because he's always had a huge draw with Lebron in town. People expect Dolan to take a $30-$40 million dollar loss, and then PRAY we win and that fans actually show up over Cavs and Browns games.
The Yankees keep their players because they have the FUNDS to do it. The reason why we traded V-Mart, Lee, Sabathia, etc ... is because people didn't come to the ballpark with them already ON the team. Why would people come if they were still on the team and making $10 million more?
And I think the funniest and most ironic thing ... all the people saying, "I'm not going to spend my money because Dolan is a cheapskate." Not only is it pure hypocrisy ... but it pretty much ensures that Dolan won't have any money or reason to spend on players next year.
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i know baseball is a broken, unfair product, i read somewhere that these bottom feeders are also pocketing quite a bit of money. baseball did introduce revenue sharing
i don't expect the indians to go out and spend like the yankees, but i would be happy just keeping our own guys.
the last few years i have not really followed baseball outside of the tribe, now, the tribe won't be getting a lot of my attention, i am not signing up for it. i don't care about the young players coming up. why? becuase when they're good, they'll be dealt for more prospects.
the dolans told all the fans, when they bought the indians, that they wanted to build the team around pitching. they backed that up by trading 2 cy young award winners who were in their prime. thanks.
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i know baseball is a broken, unfair product, i read somewhere that these bottom feeders are also pocketing quite a bit of money. baseball did introduce revenue sharing
I am not sure about last year as noone has reported it yet that I have seen. However, the Indians have not been among those teams "pocketing" the revenue sharing.
Those articles were most likely referring to the Marlins and Rays of recent years. Teams that have had an annual salary of less than A-Rod.
However, I honestly back this strategy for them over what we are doing. They get the young kids up to the majors and figure out which ones are good enough to stick. They then get high draft picks during the lean years and continually stock their farm system. You get lucky one year and you win a WS (or 2 for the marlins) or get to one (like the Rays).
Here is the article that I have found to be the best when explaining the current effects of revenue sharing in MLB:
http://www.thesportjournal.org/article/r...cal-perspective
#gmstrong
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that's flawed. the indians stopped being able to keep their players before Jacob's sold the team. it was when the Browns came back and then the Cavs got LeBron.
does anyone really think that the Cavs sellout 'because of Gilbert' or is it 'because of LeBron'? I guess if LeBron does leave we can really find out for sure.
the Tribe went from the only game in town, to the 3rd and Jacobs sold the team because he saw coming what we are in now.
also, last year's starting payroll was $81mil. That was right in the middle of the pack. The started off slow and fans didn't show up, that was the reason for the fire sale.
then again, arguing the Tribe with Ammo is like arguing politics with mac
Here's my point...
-Yes, LeBron is a MAJOR reason The Q fills up...but the environment at the arena since Gilbert bought the team, completely overhauled the arena itself and the entertainment during the game has made the atmosphere TOTALLY different vs. the Gund-owned teams w/ LeBron.
-I have no doubt that Gilbert would continue to run a first class operation and spend the necessary money to bring fans to the arena. He's investing in our city via the casino project for Christ sakes.
-The problem with the Indians' attendance is there's no sustained success. Back to back years of success would get attendance rolling. I can guarantee that.
Here's the pattern...
-Team sucks previous year but is good this year...attendance blows for the 1st half of the season but is noticeably higher the second half.
-Team is good previous year...attendance is up for the first half of the year...team tanks, attendance does not improve when the weather improves.
-Team sucks previous year and sucks worse this year...the worst case scenario.
We have NOT seen a Dolan-era Indians team with back to back good seasons...I can GUARANTEE attendance and revenues would be WAY UP if it happened.
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We have NOT seen a Dolan-era Indians team with back to back good seasons...I can GUARANTEE attendance and revenues would be WAY UP if it happened.
I agree as that is obvious. Now, the bigger question. Is that Dolan's fault or Shapiros?
Is it Dolan's fault that we haven't been homegrowing our prospects because the drafts have been so poor?
Is it Dolan's fault that our FA acquisitions for the bullpen never seem to pan out (Kerry Wood $30mil/3years instead of Frankie-Rod for $33/3 years comes to mind)?
Shapiro did a pretty good job evaluating other teams prospects and trading for them. His trade record was better than most other GMs when you compare them. But, he did a poor job drafting and in FA.
Dolan's main fault was that he let the FO continue down the path without starting over hoping to get a better guy. But, that might just mean he believes in the system, just not the results (like how the A's have struggled recently, but they still believe in their system). I am hoping with Shapiro no longer in control of player acquisitions that it improves, but it is still his system just with Antonetti in charge.
#gmstrong
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i don't care about the young players coming up. why? becuase when they're good, they'll be dealt for more prospects.
Exactly, it is almost pointless. That gives the Indians a very, very short window to be a contender, because as soon as you have good players they will leave for more money.
President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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oh, and on the subject of a slary cap in baseball. If the reason baseball cant have a cap is because of the players union, I say tell them to take a hike. That means all players that wont play with a salary cap, they can go play somewhere else. We could just bring in players from latin America. Im tired of the salary discrepency in baseball 
President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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oh, and on the subject of a slary cap in baseball. If the reason baseball cant have a cap is because of the players union, I say tell them to take a hike. That means all players that wont play with a salary cap, they can go play somewhere else. We could just bring in players from latin America.
Im tired of the salary discrepency in baseball
not only should there be a salary cap, but there should be a salary floor.
#gmstrong
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Indians single game tickets went on sale today.Plenty of good seats still available,including Opening Day! 
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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Quote:
Quote:
We have NOT seen a Dolan-era Indians team with back to back good seasons...I can GUARANTEE attendance and revenues would be WAY UP if it happened.
I agree as that is obvious. Now, the bigger question. Is that Dolan's fault or Shapiros?
Is it Dolan's fault that we haven't been homegrowing our prospects because the drafts have been so poor?
Is it Dolan's fault that our FA acquisitions for the bullpen never seem to pan out (Kerry Wood $30mil/3years instead of Frankie-Rod for $33/3 years comes to mind)?
Shapiro did a pretty good job evaluating other teams prospects and trading for them. His trade record was better than most other GMs when you compare them. But, he did a poor job drafting and in FA.
Dolan's main fault was that he let the FO continue down the path without starting over hoping to get a better guy. But, that might just mean he believes in the system, just not the results (like how the A's have struggled recently, but they still believe in their system). I am hoping with Shapiro no longer in control of player acquisitions that it improves, but it is still his system just with Antonetti in charge.
EXACTLY.
Shapiro sucks and all we hired is Mark Shapiro Jr. as the new GM. They FINALLY got rid of Wedge when it was obvious the team tuned him out...they should have done it in '06.
The funny thing is, I like Manny Acta so far, but I think he has absolutely nothing to work with.
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I'm not a huge Dolan fan but Dan Gilbert spends money like it's burning a hole in his pocket because of two factors:
1.) His franchise has the best player on the planet (not to mention 3 other former all-stars).
2.) They are a favorite (if not THE favorite) to win a title.
Both of those things correlate to:
3.) 100% attendance.
4.) A ton of extra revenue.
Do you honestly think he would be spending like he is if LeBron wasn't here or if this team was in the lower half of the league?
Basketball is a sport that is setup to allow a small market team, in the right situation, to empty their pockets. Baseball is not. Not sure why that is so hard for you to understand.
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Go Reds this afternoon!! Guess I'll be seeing a lot of the poor old Tribe now that they are sharing a spring training home. I guess that will give me more ammunition.  I'm just excited baseball and warm weather are finally on their way back!! 
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i just don't like the fact that us, and fans of some of these other smaller city teams will get 1, maybe 2 cracks at a playoff run every ten years, while the yankees, red sox, dodgers, mets, cubs, etc get to compete every year.
and with cleveland, i think there is a bond between fan and player unlike any other city. we really attach ourselves to our players (i've never seen fans address a player, when talking about him, by first name only, anywhere else). i don't see it here at all in chicago. in fact it is quite the opposite at times. they have derek rose, a young and upcoming star in the nba who's from chicago, and people could care less.
and when we have to give up our good players, i think that burns even more.
and nothing can be done about it, because the union is too strong. they tried in '94 and failed miserably, not only that, but in the process, the league/owners handed their stones to the union. the union knows they can't be messed with now.
baseball is a name brand game. people come to see the names. in football, people come to see the logos on the helmets, nobody cares about tony romo v. donovan mcnabb as much as they care about the cowboys vs the redskins (save for the colts with manning)
there is nothing that can be done about it. a floor might help but bigger cities are going to bully small and mid markets for their best players because they can. because their mega deals with the cable companies allow them to do so.
maybe the indians, pirates, reds, and royals should combine all their talent, form one team, and have a tv market of all the cities mentioned, combined. then maybe we can be on an even playing ground.
i remember being so excited for the world series when i was a kid. the last world series i watched every game of was 9 years ago.
i don't care for the world series anymore, besides, it usually gets in the way of college football.
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Here's my point...
-Yes, LeBron is a MAJOR reason The Q fills up...but the environment at the arena since Gilbert bought the team, completely overhauled the arena itself and the entertainment during the game has made the atmosphere TOTALLY different vs. the Gund-owned teams w/ LeBron.
But the money was already there. Gilbert walked into a cash cow, Lebron had just established a fan base and the money was just starting to roll in. Gund didn't have anything like that to work with, and by the time he did, his heart wasn't in it and he was planning on selling the team anyway. Plus Gund had a complete chimpanze for a GM.
Gilbert also has a luxary of a salary cap so all that extra revenue he generates from constant sell-outs doesn't need to go into outragous player salaries. He can splurge on other things.
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-I have no doubt that Gilbert would continue to run a first class operation and spend the necessary money to bring fans to the arena.
For him, it's a lot easier as the fanbase is already established ... but I think you are in for a sad dose of reality if Lebron doesn't come back. We have the best player on the planet right now. That PRINTS money for Gilbert. If we swap our roster with say .. the Hawks roster, we just won't be generating the same amount of revenue, and Gilbert isn't going to have the luxary of KNOWING he's got all kinds of future playoff revenue coming his way. He would more than likely slowly cut back here and there, and we wouldn't be able to field a team good enough to get past the 2nd round of the playoffs.
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He's investing in our city via the casino project for Christ sakes.
You honestly think he's not going to make his money back TENFOLD by running a casino in Ohio??? 
That's almost 100% guarantee. You're asking Dolan to spend $40 million dollars and PRAY that it's enough to make the Indians good enough for 2 years to win a few world series.
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The problem with the Indians' attendance is there's no sustained success. Back to back years of success would get attendance rolling. I can guarantee that.
We were 2 innings away from going to the world series a few years back, and next year the season started, and attendances were flat again, almost immediately.
You are asking him to spend $20-$30 million OVER forcasted income to field a team that MIGHT compete for a title ... and then after that season ANOTHER $20-$30 million over forecasted income, just to keep most the players from last year and maybe pick up another player or two ... and then PRAY that they can keep that up two years in a row.
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We have NOT seen a Dolan-era Indians team with back to back good seasons
And most of that comes down to the salary cap and baseball's rules ... not Dolan. See we, HAD a team that was good, just a few years ago. It wasn't until the final month of the season that we started getting sellouts. The next year they had to pay just to keep players on the team. (Hafner and Westbrook ... and those two actually handcuffed us later) ... and then as soon as the team faultered out of the gate, people immediately stopped coming.
I think the problem with Dolan is he actually spends too MUCH money. He tries to operate right at operating costs with salaries. They go for projected budget and then they spend money on so-so Free Agents to match what they are going to make. The refuse to go into all-out rebuilding mode.
When they are forced to trade all their big names like V-mart and Lee, they need to go into ALL-OUT rebuild mode. The fans aren't going to come out anyway (well the bandwagon ones anyway) ... so you might as well save salary, play the kids and don't spend money on guys like Russell Branyon. Pocket the extra cash you are making, earn some interest and then spend THAT on free agents when the kids come to fruition in a year or two.
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It's always easy to spend someone else's money.
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I'm not a huge Dolan fan but Dan Gilbert spends money like it's burning a hole in his pocket because of two factors:
1.) His franchise has the best player on the planet (not to mention 3 other former all-stars).
2.) They are a favorite (if not THE favorite) to win a title.
Both of those things correlate to:
3.) 100% attendance.
4.) A ton of extra revenue.
Do you honestly think he would be spending like he is if LeBron wasn't here or if this team was in the lower half of the league?
Basketball is a sport that is setup to allow a small market team, in the right situation, to empty their pockets. Baseball is not. Not sure why that is so hard for you to understand.
Very good post Nas! 
Your #2 point is key. The Cavs can budget quite a bit more because it is an almost certainty that they will get three and possibly four rounds of playoff ticket/concession/tv/radio/ad revenue. There is a huge amount of money to be made for getting deep into the playoffs, and most of that is tied directly to #23 (#6). Without a super-star, it would be EXTREMELY hard to build a team that you KNOW is going to take you deep into the playoffs and make your investments worthwhile.
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i just don't like the fact that us, and fans of some of these other smaller city teams will get 1, maybe 2 cracks at a playoff run every ten years, while the yankees, red sox, dodgers, mets, cubs, etc get to compete every year.
(etc)
I agree ... but that is all MLB's fault ... not Dolans. He's doing what he can with the lousy rules set in place. I listen to San Diego sports talk down here, and the Padres are the same way. People can't understand why the owners just don't run out and buy players left and right ... or pay huge dollars to keep their big time guys like Peavy. The honest answer is ... MLB isn't set up to let them do that.
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Can't you guys just link back to the exact same conversation you have every year with the exact same people? 
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so you might as well save salary, play the kids and don't spend money on guys like Russell Branyon. Pocket the extra cash you are making, earn some interest and then spend THAT on free agents when the kids come to fruition in a year or two.
i agree with that. i have seen some defenses of the Branyan signing point to how Brantley's arbitration clock will not start until next year now though. So, the question is whether or not having an extra year of cheap-Brantley is worth $2mil. it may prove out to be prudent, but I still prefer the idea of playing the kids and figuring out which are the ones that will help you make a run.
#gmstrong
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I will say, even though the Indians are likely going to be terrible, I will still probably go to 3 or 4 games.
There really isn't much better on a summer's night than being at a ballgame.
My wife and I go to at least 2 or 3 games a year, usually on good promotions nights or fireworks (and the Indians put together some great fireworks shows).
Plus, every year, my Dad and I go to dollar dog night for his birthday.
Going to see the Indians is usually not about the baseball itself to me as much as the experience. As compared to the Browns games, where I'm all business.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Going to see the Indians is usually not about the baseball itself to me as much as the experience.
I completely agree. I enjoy football and basketball more than baseball, but I would go to a baseball game over either of those options just because of the overall experience factor.
#gmstrong
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Excl: Regarding Attendance...the attendance was poor in '08 because the Indians struggled out of the gate and were out of contention by the time summer hit (when attendance would have shot up if the team was in contention).
It also didn't help that the Indians did NOTHING to load up for a championship run...they kept as is rather than go for broke. Now we're in the situation we're in.
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Quote:
i don't care about the young players coming up. why? becuase when they're good, they'll be dealt for more prospects.
Exactly, it is almost pointless. That gives the Indians a very, very short window to be a contender, because as soon as you have good players they will leave for more money.
There is the problem,....and baseball caters to it.
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i just don't like the fact that us, and fans of some of these other smaller city teams will get 1, maybe 2 cracks at a playoff run every ten years, while the yankees, red sox, dodgers, mets, cubs, etc get to compete every year.
and with cleveland, i think there is a bond between fan and player unlike any other city. we really attach ourselves to our players (i've never seen fans address a player, when talking about him, by first name only, anywhere else). i don't see it here at all in chicago. in fact it is quite the opposite at times. they have derek rose, a young and upcoming star in the nba who's from chicago, and people could care less.
Couldn't agree with you more here LBJ, Living in DC, even the natives people who grew up here couldn't care less about any of their sports teams, Redskins included. Cleveland is a sports town unlike any other city I have been/lived.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
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Indians single game tickets went on sale today.Plenty of good seats still available,including Opening Day!
Thanks for the info.
I don't know when I'll be in town yet, but I just bought a pair for my dad for his birthday. And a pair for my brother for his birthday. I might buy a couple more for Father's Day while I'm at it (just have to check to see if anyone else has already done that for him).
Great seats too. This is one of the more under-rated things about cheering for a team with no playoff aspriations. $50 total for 2 seats directly behind home plate on a Sunday afternoon against our main rival (White Sox) that you can actually buy in the middle of March.
Horrible for the team, but great for the fans that like to go to a few games.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
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It also didn't help that the Indians did NOTHING to load up for a championship run...they kept as is rather than go for broke. Now we're in the situation we're in.
Bull ... they paid Hafner and Westbrook big contracts to keep them on the team (you know, the same thing people are complaining about NOT doing this time around) ... and if I remember correctly, they also tried to sign a few modest free agents.
According to the salary numbers: http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2007
We spent $61 million in 2007 and $79 million in 2008 ... almost a $20 million increase in payroll! Of course the team stumbled out of the gate ... the fans stopped coming, and Dolan was left with the bill.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
there are a lot of other things i can't stand about basebal
the entire giving home field to the winner of the all star game. stupid. pointless. one of the dumbest concepts i've ever heard of. how about just giving it to the better team when the world series comes?
fox dictates that too, from what i have read.
and on the issue of fox. they have ruined day baseball. remember when saturday day games were on? now you don't get that any more. you can play your game on saturday in the afternoon, but if it is not on fox's national broadcast, you aren't allowed to broadcast your game on tv. (although somehow chicago weaseled their way out of that)
the world series starting late, another money grubbing move by the league and networks, now kids don't really get to watch. these games end at almost midnight.
i'll probably follow the tribe in the newspapers and on yahoo sports, but i certainly won't be dedicating a ton of time watching them.
when the cavs season ends i'll be gearing up towards browns football.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Instead of wishing that Dan Gilbert takes over ownership of the Indians ... people should be wishing for David Stern to take over commisionership of the MLB.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
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Instead of wishing that Dan Gilbert takes over ownership of the Indians ... people should be wishing for David Stern to take over commisionership of the MLB.
i agree.
dan gilbert does care about winning though. his bottom line is winning. the dolans' bottom line is the bottom line.
he didn't have to take antawn jamison's contract on this season. didn't have to do it, but he has given danny ferry carte blanche to do whatever is needed to make the team better.
what i don't like was that mark shapiro got put in a really bad position last year with cliff lee. it is my own belief that he was told to get rid of all the high salary guys on the team worth anything, lee, martinez, etc... (they probably would have gotten rid of kerry wood had anyone wanted to take him) and i really think all the general managers around the league knew this. i think we got jobbed out of the cliff lee deal, even though we sent off one of the most dominant pitchers in the game.
i just wonder how this fanbase is going to act when sizemore gets dealt..
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum 2010 Cleveland Indians: And you
thought your team sucked
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